LogoWorks or LogoJERKS?

[CHRISGEE]

Well looks like for all of us who wondered how the media darling and hack logo mill du jour, LogoWorks (http://www.logoworks.com), could get designers to crank out logos for $40 a pop in 72 hours or less, now we know. They STEAL other designer's logos!

Over at the HOW forum, Von displayed some unmistakable results, showing logos that LogoWorks' "designers" sold to unsuspecting clients as compared to identical logos designed by other designers.

Check this out, you won't believe it! (http://www.howdesign.com/forum/messages.asp?topicID=301499&page=1&pagesize=10&messagesort=ASC)

Any of you guys who design logos, GET OVER to LogoWorks and check out their gallery to make sure that they are not profiting from your work!

I have posted about this to my blog (http://www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/index.php/2005/08/19/logoworks-or-logojerks/). It's important that everyone pass the word on this one.

[morea]

disgusting.

[keith1]

Wow that's awesome Von found those logos. Now I will go throw up.

[CHRISGEE]

Spread the word. Post this to your blogs if you have one and forward this issue to every designer you know.

There is no way of knowing just how many logos LogoWorks has stolen and used for their own unethical gains!

[JaCkinbOx]

I thought there was something fishy about that service!

Creeps.

[CHRISGEE]

I thought there was something fishy about that service!

Creeps.

Yeah, a CUSTOM LOGO for $265? What is this, 1950? LOL!

It's just like when folks try to sell you a Movado watch for $30. You GOTTA know it's a fake or stolen!

[Neuro]

Wow - that is disgusting!! Wonder how long until a good lawsuit puts them in a bind. Good postin' Chris.

[CHRISGEE]

Wow - that is disgusting!! Wonder how long until a good lawsuit puts them in a bind. Good postin' Chris.

Well that depends on US!

Post this to your blog. Paste my entire entry (http://www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/index.php/2005/08/19/logoworks-or-logojerks/) if need be. Let's get the word out and encourage anyone you know who does logos to scour their gallery for stolen work!

[EC]

http://ries.typepad.com/ries_blog/2005/08/no_more_ugly_lo.html#comment-8726741

[EC]

I think, too, that somebody needs to get on the stick and get some d*mn ink on this. Who is writing the press releases?

Logoworks gets a nod in leading national business publications but we, the "communications professionals," just get angry and complain to one another?

This is a SERIOUS issue that small and micro-businesses (Logoworks audience) should be aware of. "You get what you pay for" seems obvious, but when you are just starting out and have a shoestring budget (I get that, I really do!) you want to believe it.

The nail in the coffin is the praise they've received from these publications and marketing professionals (see above) giving them street cred.

"OH, well maybe it's NOT too good to be true, I'll give Logoworks a shot!"

Now, seems to me that our efforts on our blogs and forums and design websites is a good step, but I think that we need to get together, organize a real investigative initiative (i.e. find more examples like the ones Von provides), and then start bugging the h*ll out of the media.

THEN, when we go on our blogs and rant about chop shop logo design hacks, we can link to Business Week just like they do.

[CHRISGEE]

Whoa! Folks are really letting her HAVE it!!! LOL!

[EC]

The rage of the graphic design industry has struck down upon her.

ROFLMAO.

[Neuro]

Chris...I beat you to it. I got a post up on one of my blogs right as you were writing that. If I did the trackback correct you should see it. I am going to get it up on my business one too!

[morea]

what disgusts me even more is this blog entry from a "marketing professional":
http://ries.typepad.com/ries_blog/2005/08/no_more_ugly_lo.html

I threw my 2cents in - I hope everyone else will, too.

Hack logo sites making a profit by stealing and reselling legitimate work? Nice. :mad:

[CHRISGEE]

I agree, EC. We need to get a letter together and send it to (a) WSJ, (b) Entrepreneur and (c) our good-for-nothing organizations like the AIGA/GAG/ADC who are asleep on this issue -- as they are with all issues these days.

[Neuro]

This is the time that the GD industry can show what we stand for and that we are NOT going to stand for this crap!

I totally agree with EC on this. This needs to get big and get big fast!!

[CHRISGEE]

This is the time that the GD industry can show what we stand for and that we are NOT going to stand for this crap!

I totally agree with EC on this. This needs to get big and get big fast!!

I agree. Technorati "LogoWorks" (http://www.technorati.com/search/logoworks) and you'll see they're mentioned on a bunch of blogs.

Jump into some of those comments and bring this issue to the fore. Advise your friends to do the same. We are NOT powerless! This is just the kind of event to get everyone working together on this kind of thing.

I'll be keeping the heat up on this in my blog. I'm also extending an invitation to LogoWorks to clear the air with me on a podcast. I let it be known on my blog that I will NOT be nice, but I will give them the chance to be heard.

We'll see.

[Neuro]

Ok, it's up on our business site too now.

[EC]

I showed that blog to my client (who is SO COOL) and he could not believe it.

His comment:



My word! Where did you get the idea that a logo and a brand are the same thing?

You claim you went to Northwestern?

http://ries.typepad.com/about.html

Did you skip all of Greg Carpenter's classes?

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/bio/Carpente.htm


Crack me up.

[morea]

I'm putting something together for my photoblog. It's not a professional design journal, by any means, but I get a lot of traffic there, so hopefully it will discourage some people from using thes crooks.

[EC]

Question everybody -- how many examples of blatant theft do we estimate there are?

[CHRISGEE]

Question everybody -- how many examples of blatant theft do we estimate there are?

I dunno. I saw a LOT of stuff that looks very familiar but can't put my finger on the original. Give us time.

[morea]

chrisgee, if it's all the same to you, I'm going to link to your blog article on my blog.

[PrintDriver]

What magazines/papers, exactly, have written articles about logoworks? Anyone have a list and publication dates?

[CHRISGEE]

chrisgee, if it's all the same to you, I'm going to link to your blog article on my blog.

Morea, I encourage you and anyone else to do the same.

PrintDriver, here is a link to the Wall Street Journal (http://www.logoworks.com/wallstreetarticle1.pdf) article and their "Ugliest Logo Contest" in Entrepreneur Magazine (http://www.logoworks.com/uglylogo/index.html).

They've been in some other publications too, I'll have to check and get back to you.

[PrintDriver]

Wow. I just went thru their gallery. Chris is right. Several there I can't put my finger on but I bet my co-worker can. Will run it by him tomorrow.

Lots of stuff there that is VERY expensive to print. Lots of stuff there that can't be done in simple vinyl. Quite a lot of stuff there that will never go black and white. I'm glad those companies saved a few bucks. Now they can pay it to ME to make their sign! Bwa ha ha.

[CHRISGEE]

Von just got in touch with another designer who found out his work was ripped off from LogoWorks. Check it out:

http://www.baddesignkills.com/logoworks/gazellerip.gif

[morea]

so sad.

[CHRISGEE]

so sad.

Yeah I think this has officially risen to the level where we should get the AIGA involved in a formal statement decrying LogoWorks. Not to mention that the victimized designers should get their lawyers involved.

I would send a letter to the business owner, so that word gets around that if you buy from LogoWorks, expect to be named as a plaintiff!

[Neuro]

The worse part is they don't even try to hide it. How pathetic!

[PrintDriver]

From the sound of that WSJ article, I don't think the designers think of themselves as victims. Well, not the chosen ones anyway...

I downloaded the pdf of logo designs. There's one on page 22 that has it's roots in the St. Pauli Girl beer logo...might not be close enough for a rip though.

[morea]

somebody on HOW pointed this one out, too.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6540/logos0bk.jpg

[CHRISGEE]

From the sound of that WSJ article, I don't think the designers think of themselves as victims. Well, not the chosen ones anyway...

I downloaded the pdf of logo designs. There's one on page 22 that has it's roots in the St. Pauli Girl beer logo...might not be close enough for a rip though.

Where is this logo from?

http://www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/images/logoworks/river_north.gif

[morea]

etho design! lol

http://www.ethodesign.com/

[Vikia]

I just posted at Laura's site.
Then I sent an email to Entraprenuer.com who is hosting the "Ugliest Logo Contest"
Then I sent an email to each of the judges listed at the contest.
Then I sent an email to LogoWorks.

"Ricky you have some 'splainin' to do..."

[PrintDriver]

Looks like some kind of Klingon symbol.

[Vikia]

The worse part is they don't even try to hide it. How pathetic!
Is this what they call a logo makeover...or takeover?

[morea]

it's what I call "insult to injury". :mad:

[morea]

loved your post on the BS blog, btw Viki. :D

[LancasterJohn]

I guess it helps to have friends over at Entrepeneur and the Wall Street Journal.

[morea]

yeah, no kidding.

[EC]

GGrrrr. I wrote up a whole piece about this on my blog and the internets ate it.

Everyone that has a blog, link this up. Google and technorati will pick it up, it's a small drop in the bucket but doesn't hurt. Good going for everyone who has so far.

I'll try again in the morning. *sigh*

Off to see if I can spot more rip-offs.

[LancasterJohn]

I'm still trying to get over the gazelle ripoff. I step away from the computer for a few hours and come back to this? Jeez.

[CHRISGEE]

I just posted at Laura's site.
Then I sent an email to Entraprenuer.com who is hosting the "Ugliest Logo Contest"
Then I sent an email to each of the judges listed at the contest.
Then I sent an email to LogoWorks.

"Ricky you have some 'splainin' to do..."

LOL! I LOVE that idea, Vicky!

I'm going to post the names of all of the judges to my blog and also to this site.

I think we should flood Entrepreneur's and Wall Street Journal's inboxes with letters about this. This is enough.

Matter of fact, I'll be sending a letter to the AIGA as well! It's time for them to actually DO something for that $275 X 16,000 they're getting!

[morea]

agreed. Link us up. I can write a letter with the best of them.

Cause "we're mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it any more!" :mad:

[EC]

Who hasn't done a piece on LogoWorks? Business Week? Who? They might like the scoop. I'm just sayin'. Entrepreneur and WSJ have egg on their face.

[LancasterJohn]

Like that thinking EC.

I tried to find complete rip-offs in their gallery, but all I could find was a ton of logos that look like something I've seen before, but can't put my finger on -- save the obvious examples of theft.

[PrintDriver]

Not close? Blonde, blue, boobs, beer?

[LancasterJohn]

I like the hangar 28 chick -- she brought more beer.

[morea]

^ same here.

[morea]

Not close? Blonde, blue, boobs, beer?

bastards. I hope they go out of business.

[LancasterJohn]

Hangar 28... I didn't think pilots were supposed to drink...

[morea]

left: logo from a website in MN
right: logoworks knockoff

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8696/hangers4zk.jpg

[LancasterJohn]

Blatant.

[Kool]

Man, all this agreeing with Chris is making me nervous LOL. This threads had me rollin all evening. Here's a differing view to stir things up a bit. Heh heh, you guys are absolutely going to hate this.

What if this is the future of design? I know the myth that logos need to cost 2,000 bucks is a cornerstone of our industry. The fact that this myth is being destroyed before our eyes scares the crap out of us. Consumers don't care about logos. I have never heard of a situation where somebody called up international widgets and said "I love your widgets and the price is great. They're exactly what I need but I'm not going to buy them because your logo is ugly". The company makes the logo, not the other way around. The truth is that most people couldn't tell the difference between a 50 dollar logo and a 2,000 dollar logo. So why pay more. He looks at the difference between a car and another car that costs 40 times as much and sees some major differences. He looks at a 50 dollar logo and a 2,000 dollar logo and thinks about what he can buy with the other 1,450 bucks.

With the massive amount of designers being pumped out by colleges and trade schools there is always going to be a steady supply of people willing to knock out a quick logo for 50 bucks. We can all wail and knash our teeth about it but it's not gonna change. Other than the ones that were stolen from other people a lot of those logos are pretty good. :D

[Kool]

left: logo from a website in MN
right: logoworks knockoff

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8696/hangers4zk.jpg

That clip art hanger is probably in a thousand cleaners logos LOL

[LancasterJohn]

Overall, the logos are pretty good, but pretty confusable with other brands.

[morea]

Like many have said before, I don't care as far as I could spit a rat what logoworks and other "discount logo" sites care to charge for their "designs"... but passing off other designers' hard work as their own for profit? Oh my, no.

While I agree that a bunch of these are very generic, if I saw that one example on its own, I would let it slide. But next to the abundance of evidence already posted here is is part of a trend, imo.

[CHRISGEE]

I agree with Morea. I don't sell logos, cheap or expensive. Not the point.

The point is STEALING other designers' work, regardless of what they charge for it.

[morea]

Other than the ones that were stolen from other people a lot of those logos are pretty good. :D

Ok, that makes my point! STOLEN!

Besides, gradients on logos? No.

[PrintDriver]

Now wait a minute. Pauli girl has always had 6 beers. The Hangar 28 chick drank one already.

LOL @ Kool.

If it ain't students, it's Russia, China, Japan, or India...

Morea, that's what I mean. All those pennypinchers are gonna pay for 4-color art, gradient band fixing and extra custom signwork... LMAO!

[morea]

I hear you. That's why I am not afraid of them.

But anybody who makes money STEALING from their competitors? That's WRONG.

[morea]

To quote Von Glitschka of Bad Design Kills,

Quote:"I am not debating whether LogoWorks.com should be allowed to run their business. They have every right to and I'll be happy to compete with them any day of the week. But that said they should not get a free pass to steal artwork and concepts from those they directly compete with."

[Kool]

Yes, I got the point. Sorry for posting a bit off topic and exploring a potential change in our industry.

[LancasterJohn]

I just sent this into Foxnews.com:

I think this would be an interesting piece to discuss on your show. There has been much hype in Entrepeneur and The Wall Street Journal about Logoworks.com, but what is really going on with this company and what are the potential legal ramifications for LogoWorks and its' clients?

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10291

[morea]

Good for you.

I'd love to see this on the news. :mad:

[LancasterJohn]

???

[PrintDriver]

Kool, no hijack. You made a valid point.

[morea]

not saying that you're wrong, Kool. Just saying that stealing is stealing.

THAT is what I take issue with

[CHRISGEE]

I just sent this open letter to the WSJ (http://www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/index.php/2005/08/19/an-open-letter-to-the-wall-street-journal/).

[LancasterJohn]

Wasn't sure if I violated some disclosure thing or something... Just never got a red frowny :)

[PrintDriver]

I think Morea is just pissed at the situation as she sees it.

Chris, did you send it or just post it?
No mention of Von?

PS- the article was printed in the WSJ on June 13, 2005...

[CHRISGEE]

I sent it and posted it.

I didn't mention Von by name only because then it gets to why did I mention him and not Jeff or Morea or Vikia etc.

Von is mentioned throughout my blog and I have directed them to my blog for more evidence.

[morea]

Wasn't sure if I violated some disclosure thing or something... Just never got a red frowny :)

No, no! This situation just makes me so mad! I really DO hope it gets on the news! :)

[EC]

Personally, I understand the reality of the situation. Businesses can't always afford the luxury of hiring a designer. I know I wouldn't be able to afford myself. Lucky for me I can do my own design and marketing.

So I don't begrudge them of using clip art or hiring companies like LogoWorks. Believe me, I understand.

But.

That does not excuse companies like LogoWorks from stealing ideas and profiting from the blood, sweat and tears of other desigers. It takes a designer 50 hours to develop a logo and someone 30 minutes to copy it? How can you justify that as "ok"?

It might be healthy capitalism and competition at work, but that doesn't make it right.

Besides the point, how can ANYONE do a design project, nevertheless a LOGO project, for $50 bucks? Who can do that? Nobody can AND make a decent living doing it. That's just inhumane, and for the level of skill that's required even to slap some clip art together and add a gradient and a drop shadow, still not fair. It's just not.

The only way to make it even *somewhat fair* is to cheat. So no wonder these designers pull from concepts that have already been developed or create something so GENERIC, they can't be distinuguished from 20,000 other like-businesses.

I wonder, Kool, do you think that designers DESERVE to make a fair wage doing what it is that they do?

[morea]

I sent it and posted it.

I didn't mention Von by name only because then it gets to why did I mention him and not Jeff or Morea or Vikia etc.

Von is mentioned throughout my blog and I have directed them to my blog for more evidence.

oh for heavens sake... don't ever worry about that with ME, ok? :p

[PrintDriver]

That's a little harsh EC.
I like to think a designer gets paid what they are worth. Unfortunately it is not always true. In both directions.

Besides, that WSJ article said one of the top designers raked in 50K doing this. That's only 1000 logos in a year. Scary huh?

[LancasterJohn]

EC, I don't think Kool was saying that, so much as stating an industry condition.

edit: but that is not take take away from your valid point

[CHRISGEE]

That's a little harsh EC.
I like to think a designer gets paid what they are worth. Unfortunately it is not always true. In both directions.

Besides, that WSJ article said one of the top designers raked in 50K doing this. That's only 1000 logos in a year. Scary huh?

What? That's only about 20 logos per week. And that's only the ones that get SOLD, not counting the concepts that don't make it. More like 100 logos per week!

I'd love to interview this designer who made $50K. I'd also like to know the average salary of their designers in general.

[CHRISGEE]

EC, I don't think Kool was saying that, so much as stating an industry condition.

edit: but that is not take take away from your valid point

I agree. Kool raises an interesting point that I wouldn't mind exploring in another thread. But this particular issue is about theft, pure and simple.

[Kool]

EC, I think every designer should make as much money as they possibly can. When ever anyone asks what to charge for something my answer is always "as much as you can".

The people doing this aren't making a living at this. That is the problem. It people doing it in their spare time.



But this particular issue is about theft, pure and simple.

OK I'll shut up now.

Those damned stealing bastids. :D

[LancasterJohn]

No doubt about it. I would like to clarify what I meant by "industry condition," which refers to undercutting, not theft... which is bad. As the vendor for those artists, Logoworks has some explaining and those publications... well, some retractions if it is proven that their research was sloppy. For me, the evidence is apparently there.

[keith1]

I see what Kool is saying, how can they be making a living at it??? Part time??? Maybe. Even so the only way we can stick it to them is with this theft thing and I am all over it like white on rice and I am very happy all of you are also, here and at other forums. Lets not give up on this fight please!!!!

[morea]

LOL @ Kool!

EC, I think every designer should make as much money as they possibly can. When ever anyone asks what to charge for something my answer is always "as much as you can".

^ he does, too :D

[PrintDriver]

Chris, I was being facetious.

Then there is the stay at home mom who raked in 34K... did she do as many but sell less?

And the ranking system they have is a bell curve. Any company that rates its employees on a bell curve just plain sucks.

[morea]

And the ranking system they have is a bell curve. Any company that rates its employees on a bell curve just plain sucks.

I must concur with my esteemed colleague. :D

[morea]

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4260/another1hy.jpg

^ the next one pointed out

[LancasterJohn]

might be reaching a bit

edit: after all, the other one doesn't have a cool gradient... ingenious

[Pica]

So, how close is too close?

DC Comics and Mac vs. LogoWorks logos

[LancasterJohn]

Pica, top one's not close, but both the designer's of Mac and fairfax owe Picasso an apology.

[morea]

good point. Wow, I am going to be watching the news for any mention of this.

[LancasterJohn]

BTW I did notice the elongated points, which puts that one in the "guilty" pile. Good eyes.

[JaCkinbOx]

I think Mac vs. Fairfax may be more a case of "inspired by" instead of a blatant ripoff.

[LancasterJohn]

a little humor there :)

[morea]

lol

[LancasterJohn]

This one is driving me crazy. I know I've seen it. Natural resources, endowments, foundations... The radius corner, skewed boxes and green/yellow color scheme...


http://www.jblindsey.com/landscaping-logos-5.gif

[morea]

so many of their "designs" are so generic! I know that I have seen half a dozen before, but can't place them. So frustrating!

[LancasterJohn]

We wouldn't want to make it hard for the logo thieves when in the process of thievery. Check this link out:

http://www.logoclipart.com/

and then further into the site:

http://www.logoclipart.com/logoart.html

[morea]

wow. Should have listened to dear old dad and gone into nursing.

[LancasterJohn]

I mean, really, how lazy can you be not to just recreate the Deutsche Bank logo?

[morea]

yet another:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9017/rip5rn.jpg

Top Logo is the original the bottom one is the hack-job. The original is on page 177 of the Logo Lounge Book. Looks like some one has logo books open and is blatantly copying from them.

[CHRISGEE]

Folks, when you get a minute, drop an email to the folks over at WSJ, alerting them that the company they highlighted in their June 15, 2005 artilce -- LogoWorks -- has some serious issues with respect to logo theft that they NEED to follow up on. Reference LogoWorks in the subject line.

Doesn't have to be a long email. The more emails the better. Folks have already started, so we want to flood them with emails so that they can't ignore the issue. Here is the email:

wsj.ltrs@wsj.com

[morea]

I'll send one. I am also updating my blog to include all the examples we have found.

Here's the entry thus far.
http://moreas-photos.blogspot.com/2005/08/logoworks-really-bargain.html

[CHRISGEE]

Great, Morea!

I just sent a letter to AIGA Executive Director Ric Grefe, alerting him to the entire situation. He agrees that it warrants a response from the AIGA!

Let's keep up the heat!

[EC]

Excellent!!

Just sent my note off to WSJ, posted on www.thepreparedmind.com.

[Neuro]

I just Technorati "Logoworks" and this was the first post, so I went and read it. This guy used Logoworks and he said "...I have to admit that my decision to go with LogoWorks was wrong." This is based on the fact that he read Chris's posts on TPM!! Congrats on changing one person's perspective. He even said "Now, based on the reactions and my personal dislike of the logo, I decided to just drop it and go with another designer. This time I will go with a single design firm."

Here is the rest of the post...Dimitris Giannitsaros - Blog (http://rapidsignal.com/blog/2005/08/20/logo-second-thoughts/)

[morea]

Von just posted a thread including an interview he did with a Logoworks designer; check it out!

http://www.howdesign.com/forum/messages.asp?topicID=302464

[morea]

And it seems that LogoWorks also has HP's glowing recommendation:
http://www.hp.com/sbso/productivity/office/logos.html?jumpid=ex_r295_go/logoworks/kimIPGTR/042905

I used this form to contact them and let them know what was going on, if anyone else wants to do the same:

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/hpads/contactus.html

[JaCkinbOx]

That's just sad. I have an HP computer and it's honestly one of the best I ever had. Running XP and it's only crashed about once in over a year since I got it.

Compaq, Gateway and Dell have paled in comparison.

[CHRISGEE]

I just Technorati "Logoworks" and this was the first post, so I went and read it. This guy used Logoworks and he said "...I have to admit that my decision to go with LogoWorks was wrong." This is based on the fact that he read Chris's posts on TPM!! Congrats on changing one person's perspective. He even said "Now, based on the reactions and my personal dislike of the logo, I decided to just drop it and go with another designer. This time I will go with a single design firm."


I saw that! It just underscores what I've been saying all along about the fact that blogging can become an effective tool for the design industry if we act together, in an organized fashion on issues that are important to us.

[Vikia]

I can imagine some young designer, enticed by LogoWorks or similar, to create logos using such unethical standards, while building a portfolio with this kind of hack design.

Now I can imagine showing that portfolio to try to get a job in the real world.

[Vikia]

Okay Chris, I have added this to the blogging community:
Design Thieves vs Posse (http://pandapause.com/)

[CHRISGEE]

Outstanding Vikia! I just read your blog!

[Vikia]

Thanks Chris, you inspired me.

[CHRISGEE]

Thanks Vikia!

Hey, where do I know this logo from?
http://images.dekadu.com/logos/website_logo40px.jpg

This logo is from a site where they apparently just bought a logo from LogoWorks (http://blog.dekadu.com/2005/08/logo.html).

Here is the sheet of variations (http://blog.dekadu.com/logo/CompletedReviews.html) that LogoWorks provided as well.

[PrintDriver]

Some young designer isn't going to get into this unless he knows someone already working there (well, according to the WSJ article anyway. Did any of you READ it?).

It does set a poor example for the youngsters. But what do you expect when I hear even some of the teachers say 'if you change 3 things it's yours'. Bad teachers.

[PrintDriver]

I gotta admit too, there were a few designs on LW's gallery that I did like. They weren't all horrid. The ones I did like were worth far more than the $25/$30/$40 plus $50 bonus the designer got paid.

No one seems to have read any of the articles. They are all to blinded by the similarities and the great gnashing of teeth to go search for answers that are already out there. A designer is paid by the concept and gets the additional $50 if they make the sale. The artist's concept rate is based on where they fall in the bell curve based on votes from their coworkers. I'm guessing someone at the far end of good is pulling $40 for 2 or more concepts plus the $50 for the sale. The article even says designers on the low end of bad are not assigned projects as frequently as the good ones... There is some thought going into this.

Just realize, this isn't the only company out there doing this. Some of these logo joints don't even have the chops to know they are supposed to be using vector. Has anyone done an industry search?

[CHRISGEE]

No one seems to have read any of the articles. They are all to blinded by the similarities and the great gnashing of teeth to go search for answers that are already out there. A designer is paid by the concept and gets the additional $50 if they make the sale. The artist's concept rate is based on where they fall in the bell curve based on votes from their coworkers. I'm guessing someone at the far end of good is pulling $40 for 2 or more concepts plus the $50 for the sale. The article even says designers on the low end of bad are not assigned projects as frequently as the good ones... There is some thought going into this.

Just realize, this isn't the only company out there doing this. Some of these logo joints don't even have the chops to know they are supposed to be using vector. Has anyone done an industry search?

I'm not sure why you think no one has read the articles. My impression is that most are fully aware of the pricing structure. That's not the issue. If a designer wants to do logos for almost no money, that's their right. In all honesty, there are designers doing logos for that low amount WITHOUT going through LogoWorks. That's not the issue here.

The issue is with what is now an ever growing number of logos that have obviously been designed by other designers but are being sold by LogoWorks to other customers.

It's not LogoWorks fault that there are designers willing to accept so little. It IS their fault that their company is involved in so much theft.

[Kool]

Yeah, what's wrong with you PD. Didn't you get the message in the 5 consecutive replies to my post. This thread is about STEALING and nothing else. Now just run along. :mad:

[Vikia]

LOL @ Kool

[Kelly_Hero]

Boy have I been doing some reading today!!! LOL

Does anyone recognize this one?

http://logoworks.com/images/logos/recent/recent-logos-6.jpg

I KNOW I have seen that somewhere before. I've scoured all the sites in my Favorites, but I can't find the site I've seen it on.

[morea]

Yeah, what's wrong with you PD. Didn't you get the message in the 5 consecutive replies to my post. This thread is about STEALING and nothing else. Now just run along. :mad:

um, you ok Kool? :confused:

[tZ]

What pieces of crap

Many of the inital designs are just trace and paste with a new type arrangement.

However, later ones posted all though they may resemble some attributes displayed in other logos I wouldn't call them a "rip off". More like bad integrity.. or none at all.

In spite of it all even one design being stolen is to many.

On the otherhand, who is to say someone didn't rip of designs from logoworks?

None the initial "designs"(none logoworks) are very "popular" either.

So it would be hard to tell who is ripping off who in some instances.

As for the pricing issue if they are able to produce work and still make profit then all is good. I have nothing against how people price themselves... it is thier decision.

However, if they are stealing others work to do so then that is another thing.

[PrintDriver]

I forgot Kool. It was so many pages ago. LMAO!

Every 3rd question in the Howie forum and every so often in this one is about wanting to
a) find out the name of a designer who works for LW
b) find out how one gets a job at LW
c) say these designers are getting $50 or nothing for their logo when they get a [paltry] $25, $30, $40 per job plus the bonus.

All answered in the ONE article I read.

Now as for the stealing, I'd say if you can pull the exact same design up in a book or Federal record publish dated BEFORE the design appeared on LogoWorks you'd have some real evidence. There are 2 or 3 examples here of nearly exact rips. That is more than enough.

The coathanger is clip art. Plain and simple. There must be a dozen logos around town here that use various pieces of clipart in logos. What states are the 2 industries in? Is either of them listed Federally?

There must be several smaller companies in the US alone that have similar logos in different states. Many have the same name. That is not considered trademark infringement if the trademark has not been listed Federally. And some states have a term of years for a trademark then you have to renew it (or it's just like losing your web domain). You can attempt to search copyright/trademark records on a logo but how many designers actually apply for a proper copyright/trademark? How many actually perform a search? How many of your clients actually know to apply for a Federal trademark? That is what a client pays for and should expect when he pays $3000 or more to a design firm for a logo. Your 'knowledge of design' isn't what they are paying for, it's the legwork.

Designers rely on the assumption that the copyright law will protect them because they have created something. But WHEN did they create it? Before or after someone else did? Can you prove it? Date stamps on comp files is not evidence. I know an artist who does high end oils. First thing he does as soon as he can handle the work is snap a shot of it and register it with the Copyright Office. Never has a problem with rips, and they have happened.

tZ points out the word 'integrity'. Perhaps that is more the issue here. DesignER integrity. But you have no way to 'punish' a designer who violates the rules without a lawsuit. And what happens after he pays the fine (and your court costs if you are smart)? Right back to business as usual. There is no database. No Better Business Bureau for designers. No accountability.

And none of this will change in the foreseeable future. It's still Buyer Beware.

[LancasterJohn]

I imagine that a date stamp would be supporting evidence, although it could be modified. I always though that if you had a professionally printed sample (proving usage) that would be proof enough. If the issue of originality came up you could then refer to a date on the piece or pull the invoice from the printer. The added step of getting a copyright or service mark would be good insurance, but there is a cost to doing so if I remember.

[CHRISGEE]

Now as for the stealing, I'd say if you can pull the exact same design up in a book or Federal record publish dated BEFORE the design appeared on LogoWorks you'd have some real evidence. There are 2 or 3 examples here of nearly exact rips. That is more than enough.

The coathanger is clip art. Plain and simple. There must be a dozen logos around town here that use various pieces of clipart in logos. What states are the 2 industries in? Is either of them listed Federally?

Well that's for the lawyers to decide. This is not a legal matter. This is an ethical matter. Customers of LogoWorks and potential customers of LogoWorks should realize that these issues are in place when they buy their cheap logo and that they assume any and all legal liabilities if the logo they purchased turns out to be stolen, as per LogoWorks' legal disclaimers (assuming they are unassailable in court).

Designers rely on the assumption that the copyright law will protect them because they have created something. But WHEN did they create it? Before or after someone else did? Can you prove it? Date stamps on comp files is not evidence. I know an artist who does high end oils. First thing he does as soon as he can handle the work is snap a shot of it and register it with the Copyright Office. Never has a problem with rips, and they have happened.

tZ points out the word 'integrity'. Perhaps that is more the issue here. DesignER integrity. But you have no way to 'punish' a designer who violates the rules without a lawsuit. And what happens after he pays the fine (and your court costs if you are smart)? Right back to business as usual. There is no database. No Better Business Bureau for designers. No accountability.

And none of this will change in the foreseeable future. It's still Buyer Beware.

Very true. And ultimately this issue is going to have to end squarely on the matter of designer ethics and professional standards. It shouldn't escape any of us that while LogoWorks is the legal entity and not without ethical responsibility as well, DESIGNERS have been the ones stealing from other designers!

I've long called for our design organizations to put in place ethical standards and some form of accoutability. Regardless of the outcome of this controversy, all of those unethical designers willing to steal others' artwork in hopes of hawking an cheapie logo onto an unsuspecting consumer will STILL be out there.

Writing letters and blog entries about LogoWorks is the easy part. Doing something about the rot within our own ranks is the tougher part.

[PrintDriver]

A "published" piece is always easier to substantiate.
And the fee is part of that $2000+ you got for the logo.
Date stamps are only a function of what you computer date/time is set at during the save. Way WAY to simple to change. I wouldn't count it as supporting evidence even.

[PrintDriver]

And logos aren't brochures. There is a weird mindset by some designers that they 'own' the creative copyright of a logo and it is their right to release vector or layer files.

Sorry. If I hired a designer to do a logo, once I buy it, it is mine. I don't want to be going to a designer for a 'copyright' release to use or change my own logo. I don't want a designer using elements of my logo to create something else. I don't want to go to the designer if I need a vector file for a sign or a banner. I don't want a designer holding my logo ransom in exchange for future business. What I do with my bought and paid for logo is MY BUSINESS.

And this is also part of that $2000+ that I would pay you. Exclusivity and ownership of the design.

This is another thing people who go to these chop shops don't get. Some clown could pull a copyright of design on these poor saps. Don't know how much it would stand up but who wants to take a chance.

[LancasterJohn]

I agree that once a designer sells a logo to a company, then it is the sole property of that company. There is no question about that. I do feel that if a thieving designer is caught red-handed, then that person should be (and probably could be) accountable to both the company in possession of the logo and the designer who created it.

While the logo is no longer the property of the designer, it still is a part of the designer's portfolio, a part of their career and it they're lucky, possibly a part of graphic design history if it is recognized as such. In that aspect, the graphic designer is hurt the most.

[CHRISGEE]

And logos aren't brochures. There is a weird mindset by some designers that they 'own' the creative copyright of a logo and it is their right to release vector or layer files.

That's not necessarily true. I remember a few years back, we did a site for a well-known brand (insert famous consumer product). In initial meetings, I conducted an asset and content assessment expecting to have years of creative materials from decades of commercials, ads and print materials.

WRONG!

The deal this company made with the agencies was one of USAGE, not ownership. The agency retained the original files to everything and the company had to pay for additional usage, despite having paid millions of dollars on these campaigns in the past!

It really depends on the agreement you strike. Just because you pay does NOT mean you own the rights!

[CHRISGEE]

I agree that once a designer sells a logo to a company, then it is the sole property of that company. There is no question about that. I do feel that if a thieving designer is caught red-handed, then that person should be (and probably could be) accountable to both the company in possession of the logo and the designer who created it.

While the logo is no longer the property of the designer, it still is a part of the designer's portfolio, a part of their career and it they're lucky, possibly a part of graphic design history if it is recognized as such. In that aspect, the graphic designer is hurt the most.

If I sell a stolen car, the car is no longer mine, right? So I'm in the clear? NO! LOL! I sold something that was not mine to sell. I sold something that I, in fact, stole from someone else. I cannot make a legal contract that transfers rights of ownership with something I do not own in the first place.

Even if the designer doesn't put the stolen logo into their portfolio, they have still committed a crime.

Even if the designer tranfers rights of ownership of the logo, the fact that someone else claims to be the originator of that intellectual property is, at the very least, fraud.

[LancasterJohn]

[QUOTE=CHRISGEE]...The deal this company made with the agencies was one of USAGE, not ownership...QUOTE]

This is true and an exception to my last post -- I myself have never used a usage agreement, but it does have its' place with the larger corporations.

[LancasterJohn]

If I sell a stolen car, the car is no longer mine, right? So I'm in the clear? NO! LOL! I sold something that was not mine to sell. I sold something that I, in fact, stole from someone else. I cannot make a legal contract that transfers rights of ownership with something I do not own in the first place.

That wasn't my point, but in the case of Logoworks and similar outfits, I agree with you.


Even if the designer tranfers rights of ownership of the logo, the fact that someone else claims to be the originator of that intellectual property is, at the very least, fraud.

Oh, no doubt about it. This was the gist of my post. I do believe that the designer should also be compensated if there is an award from a legal settlement as well.

[PrintDriver]

It really depends on the agreement you strike. Just because you pay does NOT mean you own the rights!

I said if I was buying a logo for my company I would insist on owning it. For an ad campaign or a marketing salvo I might choose otherwise.
As always, contract, contract, contract.
:D

[fredrich]

Ugly stuff. Just went through some of the logos on the site, and I think this has some similarity;

http://www.logoworks.com/images/logos/realtor/realtor-logos-9.gif

The original (ICA, Swedish/Norwegian food-chain)
http://www.ica.no/lib_img/logos/ica.jpg

[LancasterJohn]

Similarity and that's about it.

[steve-o]

Realted to this topic is an article by Gunnar Swanson over at STEP inside design titled, "GENERATION EX: Copies and Copying in Graphic Design (http://www.stepinsidedesign.com/STEPMagazine/Article/28492)".

[PrintDriver]

Steve-o, those three examples given there might be considered "Parody" rather than plagerism; parody is allowed under copyright. Defining parody is sometimes difficult. If someone is attempting to use parody in a logo....badddd idea. I know a pizza joint got slammed by Papa Gino's for calling himself Papa Dino's. But I guess Papa John's is ok for some reason... Go figure.

[Drorain]

just emailed the GD director at my school about this, hopefully to inspire a seminar about professional practice and ethics, many students dont think about it until its to late

[morea]

good idea, dro.

[Mynock]

I agree Drorain, I think I'm going to do the same.

[Drorain]

professional practice is ignored a lot, but its very important. I love the ethics side of design as much as I love the design itself...it makes me feel more involved as a mover and shaker in the industry...I hope the email doesnt go ignored tho, I dont know how serious they will take it from little ole me

[JaCkinbOx]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have something to contribute. I went to the LogoWorks website today and initiated a live chat with one of the LogoWorks representatives. The representative goes by "Dale" and I'm, of course, represented by "you". Here is the log, which I saved:

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
Chat InformationYou are now chatting with 'Dale'
Dale: Hi, how can I help you?
you: Yes, it has recently come to my attention that there is massive building evidence against LogoWorks of ripping off pre-existing and copyrighted logo designs from outside sources.
you: Are you in a position to comment on this matter or do I need to take this higher up?
Dale: I am not in a position to comment I would contact Noelle Bates our PR Director at 801-922-1904
you: Is it possible to reach Noelle Bates alternatively via e-mail?
Dale: Noelle@logoworks.com
you: Okay. Thank you for your time, Dale. I appreciate it.
you: Good day to you.
Dale: Where did you hear of this? I would like to give her a heads up on your emails so she can research what you are hearing
you: I first ran across it through a Graphic Design forum at http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/
you: There was a thread created there recently that discovered several old logos that LogoWorks is allegedly copying.
you: The list has been growing about every day since the thread started.
you: A few have disturbingly similar resemblances, others can be passed off as coincidence.
Dale: I can assure you we have never intentionally copied any logo.
you: Can you tell me a little about the processes that [LogoWorks'] designers go through in creating logos for their clients?
Dale: I would contact Noelle she could give you a very detailed description.
you: Thank you.
you: Another question, please. Should I need to refer back to you in my research, is there an e-mail address that I might contact you at?
Dale: Please refer directly to Noelle.
you: Very well.
you: Thank you, Dale. Your help has been greatly appreciated.
you: Have a great day.
Chat InformationChat session has been terminated by the site operator.

-------------

I then proceeded to compose my e-mail for Noelle, the PR Director:

Noelle,

I had a live chat via the LogoWorks website with one
of your representatives (who went by "Dale") regarding
alleged logo theft being commited by your company. He
directed me to you for my inquiry.

It has recently come to my attention that there is
evidence against LogoWorks of ripping
off pre-existing and copyrighted logo designs from
outside sources.

For example, here is a link to a logo that has
allegedly been copied and represented by LogoWorks.
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9017/rip5rn.jpg
The bottom is the LogoWorks version, and the top is
the original.

Here's another original (left) and the LogoWorks copy
(right):
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8696/hangers4zk.jpg

And one more disturbingly similar logo. The first is
the LogoWorks version, the second is the original.
http://www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/images/logoworks/gazelle.jpg

There are numerous other examples, but this is just to
start off.

I wish to know what your company's official statement
is on this matter, and what is going to be done about
the plagiarism if proved to be true.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your
response.


Matt

-----------------

That's all for now.

[Mynock]

you should post this at the howdesign.com thread that started this debate if you haven't already

[JaCkinbOx]

you should post this at the howdesign.com thread that started this debate if you haven't already

Good thought. I'm on it.

[Neuro]

Interesting chat session. There are several threads at HOW on this. It is where it originated from back before the weekend.

[GreenThumb]

Atta boy Jack!

[JaCkinbOx]

Atta boy Jack!

Take it to the man.

[brendanwor]

Nice one!

[Neuro]

It just amazes me how many of them are ripped and there is no attempt to even try to hide it. This is going to bite them so hard!!

[Mynock]

we can only hope

[Drorain]

thats what i cant wait to see

[JaCkinbOx]

We shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!

[Mynock]

I'm just fighting to read all of that HOW thread I'm on page 16, I just started today

[JaCkinbOx]

I read up to about page 10, and 34-36. I think that gave me a pretty good handle on the situation up to this point.

[Neuro]

Yeah, it blew up today. I just read the last three. I can't believe some of these logos they are finding. The Zerox one has to be the worst. I can't believe someone would except that as their logo.

[Vikia]

Good job Matt! I added your post to my blog entry on this.

[Neuro]

There looks like Von got a response from Jeff at Logoworks. Seems kind of arrogant to me to assume he (Jeff) knows all about the questions he'll be ask. If I know Chris well enough from his Podcasts, he'll have something to make the dude think a bit.

Let us know what happens with that Chris. As soon as you know your plan, I want to get it posted on my blog. That is one interview I will NOT miss!!

[morea]

did you guys notice the Xerox logo ripoff? Man, that's bad.

[NewEra]

good work von
i think every logo designer want 2 shak ur hands

[Drorain]

Hilarious, I love the official responses...polite and professional manner...

"you dont have to kick me in the balls" lol

lmao

[CHRISGEE]

There looks like Von got a response from Jeff at Logoworks. Seems kind of arrogant to me to assume he (Jeff) knows all about the questions he'll be ask. If I know Chris well enough from his Podcasts, he'll have something to make the dude think a bit.

Let us know what happens with that Chris. As soon as you know your plan, I want to get it posted on my blog. That is one interview I will NOT miss!!

We're working on scheduling now, tentatively set for this Friday! Stay tuned! I'll try and get it up as fast as possible on Friday. :-)

[Mynock]

I'm on page 20 on the HOW forum, I'm halfway done. Unfortunately, that's only still Saturday.

[Drorain]

I love the collaberation of this all...shows how tight the design community truely is...The people on HOW that are trying to play this off as nothing are irritating though, some of them would let a corporation stomp all over them...and this is a battle about quality of design and design ethics as well...without this...there is no professional graphic design

[Drorain]

Do you guys realize how big the Xerox copy is...and on a DIY instant logo offering? Xerox doesnt screw around with their trademarks, and they still say the digital x is their copyright, even though its not in their logo...

See link below
http://www.xerox.com/go/xrx/template/004.jsp?view=Legal&Xcntry=USA&Xlang=en_US

The final section...

Xerox


TRADEMARKS:

Xerox trademarks, logos, and service marks (collectively the "Trademarks") displayed on the Site, including, but not limited to XEROX®, The Document Company® and the digital X® are trademarks of Xerox Corporation in the U.S. and/or other countries. Nothing contained on the Site should be construed as granting, by implication, estoppel, or otherwise, any license or right to use any Trademark displayed on the Site without the written permission of Xerox Corporation or such third party that may own other trademarks displayed on the Site. Your misuse of the Trademarks displayed on the Site, or any other content on the Site is strictly prohibited. You are also advised that Xerox Corporation will aggressively enforce its intellectual property rights to the fullest extent of the law. You may download a list of Xerox-owned U.S. trademarks. For a list of commonly used third party trademarks that may be used at this Site or in conjunction with our offerings, click here.


That might spell out the biggest trouble...we'll see

[CHRISGEE]

I love the collaberation of this all...shows how tight the design community truely is...The people on HOW that are trying to play this off as nothing are irritating though, some of them would let a corporation stomp all over them...and this is a battle about quality of design and design ethics as well...without this...there is no professional graphic design

Well this is really the first case of us coming together like this. I don't think we could really describe the community as "tight". Hopefully this is the beginning of the community growing tighter, though.

I LOVE the tireless efforts that EVERYONE has put into this. There literally have been no small efforts in this process. If you do a Technorati search for LogoWorks (http://www.technorati.com/search/logoworks), you'll see a DRAMATIC difference in the results than what you would have seen even over the weekend!

This morning, Von Glitschka will be interviewed by the Wall Street Journal in a follow-up story to the one-sided account that was written about LogoWorks.

That's ALL I really wanted, really. There should be two sides to this story, not just the favorable side for LogoWorks. Thanks to everyone involved, that other side is coming out BIG TIME! It's no coincedence that we've seen LogoWorks' Chief Marketing Officer jump into the fray!

[Drorain]

I dont know Chris, maybe its more of me feeling tighter with the community, I feel I have links all over the country now, and not only that I feel I interact with them more than on a spectator basis. I say this as a designer, and as a professional I have had a little more give and take with various people, and this is little ole me who's been in the business for only a year.

I have great respect for you and Von, and Jeff Fischer as well for all the work you've done...keep up the good work.

My goal is to become a proactive pusher of ethics in our industry, but right now I can only support the movements already established.

I would like to say I am amazed and proud of this coming together, without the backing of AIGA or GAG starting this...but now that the ball is rolling, maybe we should get them involved ;)

[Mynock]

For those of you who haven't read their response as posted on Chris Gee's Blog. http://www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/index.php/2005/08/21/the-logoworks-controversy-rages-on/#comments


Actually we have been talking to both Chris and Von Glitschka who both contacted me regarding these posts. I’ve agreed to be interviewed by telephone or to fly Chris and Von out to our office on my dime so that they can get better acquainted with our operation in person. I’m waiting to hear back from them.

For the record, we have hundreds of designers that use our system to pick up design projects either for full-time work or as additional work to backfill their other projects. These designers are not college students being ‘exploited’. While there are a few young designers that we have admitted to the system most of our designers have 7-10 years experience. In addition, every designer must be recommended from someone in our system, must fill out an application and must submit their portfolio. We generally interview the designer by phone and accept less than 10% of the designers that apply to work in our system. We have designers that work at many of the top agencies in the world and have designed Fortune 500 logos. And while the designer compensation system cited in the WSJ might strike many designers as low or unfair, we have many contract designers making $40-65K per year. Just check your AIGA/Aquent salary survey guide for 2005 and you’ll see that on balance our wages are quite competitive with general industry pay rates.

In terms of copied logos, as was already mentioned we have a strict policy against it. Every designer must certify every time they upload something to our system that it is their original work. We have about 30 designers in our office that spend time reviewing each and every image to help prevent logo theft and trademark issues. Whenever we have discovered theft, we have terminated our relationship with the offending designer immediately. We also carry a large media insurance policy in case a stolen logo ever gets past our QA process and is sold to a customer (so you can all stop worrying about how we’re going to get sued into oblivion).

In this case, none of the logos cited as copied in this post were ever sold to a customer. They were only concepts shown to customers to help identity what style of design the company was looking for. Someone in our marketing department found those designs in our database and used them in a marketing brochure for our portfolio. Obviously, we’ll remove them from future versions.

Lastly, our company has served over 30,000 customers. Our design community has created over 250,000 unique, custom logos. Is it possible that a handful of the logos that were created were ripped? Yes, it is possible. The sheer volume of design work we do makes quality assurance challenging. That said, LogoWorks is by no means the only design company with this problem. Many design agencies (including some of the best) have had to terminate designers for ripping other peoples work. The problem has nothing to do with the company. It has to do with dishonest designers. When you employ as many designers as we do there is a greater probability that we might get an occasional bad apple.

In my marketing career I have worked with many agencies local and national and I have never met an agency that has as rigorous a process as LogoWorks for policing theft and mark infringement. In fact, I know many agencies have no process at all. Asserting that using someone local solves this problem is rediculous. The median graphic design agency in the US has 4 employees. While I know that some small shops do their proper trademark work, many are streched for resources and just don’t.

Lastly, I can understand how some designers are offended by the prices we charge because they have worked so hard to create value in design work and they argue that we are undermining those efforts. Let me assure you that if you deliver value there will always being a long line of customers willing to pay for it. Our prototypical customer would never even go to an agency. They are choosing between bad clip art templates or something they designed themselves. We bridge the gap between free and agency prices. We don’t claim to offer “brand strategy” or other consultative services. We don’t do in-person meetings. We don’t spend hours in a conference room brainstorming about brand positioning. Designers that do offer all of these services will always have a place in the market. You just have to realize that while they are important, some customers will simply never have the money or desire to pay for them. They just want fast, low-cost design that reflects their personality as a small business owner. To them that is quality. The fact that over 98% of our 30,000+ customers tell us they would recommend our service to another small business owner tells me that we understand what our customers want.

Jeff Kearl
Chief Marketing Officer
Arteis, inc.

[Drorain]

think LW is going to try to sue Von for Lible?

[Mynock]

have you read the most recent post by tsheet?

[morea]

I am sort of surprised with the attitude of some so-called professional business people who are hurling insults at designers and saying that the prices that designers charge make *them* the criminals, not logoworks.

Why defend this company so vehemently when the proof is right in front of you that what they are doing is WRONG?!?

[Drorain]

have you read the most recent post by tsheet?

ya he seemed to be making some intentional subtle threat

[Mynock]

I agree

[morea]

Neuro got a nasty comment on his prepress blog today that designers are like highway robbers and LogoWorks is the savior of small businesses. :rolleyes:

[Mynock]

OhMyGosh

[morea]

check it out!

www.prepressology.com

[Mynock]

I agree with Jeff, after spending a two days reading all of the posts, I feel I have to weigh in on this issue finally. All stealing behind, I think LW is taking a very personal process and imporsanlizing it. Logos are an "identity" how are you suppose to create an identity for someone you never see or meet the actual person/client. I feel that a mark or identity is most useful when the client has some input into it, beyond just choosing from three different designs. It bothered me when I designed a logo and I didn't even get to see how the customer reacted and what they did or didn't like. It was impersonal, all I got was in turn was which logo they liked. The few times I get to design a logo, I like to have the client involved as much as possible. They then feel ownership over their identity. Which in turn would lead to them enjoying it more and keep it longer.

And on a second note, them offering affordable logos for those small businesses that can't afford huge design firms who want to create a series for them. What about mom and pop shops hiring mom and pop design firms? What about freelancers? Don't those people offer the similar services on a more affordable level? And sometimes there something to be said about getting what you pay for.

Am I on to something or on something?


this is what I have to say about that

[Mynock]

I can't find the comment you speak of

[morea]

sorry, I thought it was on his most recent entry... check here:

http://www.prepressology.com/logo-chop-shop-logoworks/

[Mynock]

sorry, I thought it was on his most recent entry... check here:

http://www.prepressology.com/logo-chop-shop-logoworks/ (http://www.prepressology.com/logo-chop-shop-logoworks/)

I see it

[morea]

Margaret Says:

August 23rd, 2005 at 2:31 pm
I have had work done through Logoworks for my small business. I think they did an excellent job and they did the most unique and original designs I have seen. Whatever people think they are ripping off ideas don’t know the great customer service and ability of the designers. I am sure they are just bitter of the new process that is taking away from the over priced, greedy, traditional design firms that don’t even have the same quality of work!

[Neuro]

I don't think she'll be back. LOL!

[morea]

HA! Damn, somebody's got your back.

Really though - this is what I mean! Did she even look at the examples before she went and said what she did?

You know, the most vocal, opinionated people (like this woman) are oftentimes the most clueless!!!

[Mynock]

I've got your back too neuro if you need me

[morea]

I didn't even have to get out my bat! :p

[Neuro]

I doubt she bothered. She is very ignorant and in business, that will sink her.

[Crimson]

Wow Morea,

I think Margret was a troll name for someone at LW to fan the flames. If Logoworks can withstand this onslaught will they become the Walmart of design and shut other places down because you can't compete. Thank god they don't offer everything. They are just a bunch of whores over there. Small business owners that use them should get their hands cut off to send the message out not to use the dirty cheap bastards.

[morea]

Well, that wouldn't surprise me at all, Crimson. I am sure that Logoworks is trying to do some major damage coontrol at this point.

As for their pricing, they market it as an "alternative to clip art" - which is kind of sad, but I can see how it appeals to new small startup businesses with showstring budgets.

While I don't like it, my real problem with them is (a) the theft, and (b) the fact that they won't even take the responsibility for the stolen designs... any person who buys the logo from LogoWorst... not the company itself.

Tidy solution, don't you think?

[PandaBear]

Funny thing...they've removed the Dutton Logo (previously seen in this screen shot) (http://www.baddesignkills.com/logoworks/incontext.jpg) and replaced it with another (seen here) (http://www.logoworks.com/automotive-logos.html). Looks like ALOT of the logos in the original post are removed now. Hmmm why would they do that if they weren't guilty? Looks like we'll have to do more research to see if any other logos have been ripped off from someone else. They're covering their a$$ right now it looks like.

Plagerism
Passing off someone's work as your own is known as plagerism. Individuals who plagiarize material deliberately are committing an illegal act. More common is the failure of an individual to cite the sources of their information. It's ok to use pictures and paraphrase text but be sure to cite the source of your information. Even when permission to use the material is granted, the author or source should be cited. This includes not only text but pictures, graphics, animations, movies, and even sounds.

[Neuro]

Good ole Damage Control!

I look forward to the interview. Von and/or Chris will do a good job of putting them on the spot.

[Mynock]

http://www.baddesignkills.com/logoworks/index.htm

[CHRISGEE]

Good ole Damage Control!

I look forward to the interview. Von and/or Chris will do a good job of putting them on the spot.

Thanks! Looks like Von has to fly out of town Friday for prior commitments but I'll hold down the fort myself on Friday.

This'll be fun, because I've felt like Larry King giving cream-puff interviews up until now. LOL!

[Kool]

http://www.baddesignkills.com/logoworks/index.htm

Great link thanks, I kept snoozing off in the HOW thread. I still don't get the rip on the Earnst & Young / White Financial one :confused:

[PrintDriver]

This whole thing has turned out to be pretty absurd.

The design community isn't together. Half of them on How (and some here) don't even know the question. Others ask the same questions, most of which are answered in the articles in question. Others spout wrong information as facts, which LW pointed out quite correctly. The designers who work for them are not students, nor are they victims. They know exactly what they are doing and why. Just like the lowballers out there as freelancers. The fee paid isn't $50. It's a little more than that and they do get paid even if their design isn't picked. And it goes on.

There is more than an implied threat in LW going after Von. It's one thing to point out a gaffe, huge as it is, it's quite another to smear a company in the press.

Damage control or not, most of the people who posted did NOT take the time to investigate before jumping up and down and yelling foul at designers, at logoworks, at reporters, at bloggers, even at each other.

Stealing is bad. But it was DESIGNERS that did the stealing. Whether LW turned a blind eye or they just have an incredibly stupid marketing team is yet to be determined. And probably never will be. The only thing at issue here should be the stealing. The fact that they are in business...should not. Ethics aren't what they once were. If people can steal software, images, and fonts, what's next? Someone else's work of course. This is an excellent opportunity to discuss designer ethics but right now we have an anthill of designers that someone has poked with a stick. Only some of them are biting the stick (ethics). Others are running around blindly biting everything else.

Is anyone old enough to remember when NBC changed their logo to a big two-color N? All the marketing research and nearly $300K later they air it and some little television station - a TELEVISION station - in the midwest sues their ass for trademark infringement because they had the EXACT same logo, only they had it first. NBC ended up buying them off big time. So mistakes can and do happen even to the best.

There will always be lowballers. They are everywhere. Print industry, construction industry, any service industry, and especially the overseas markets. Get used to it. Adapt. Adjust. Focus on what you offer and to hell with what the guy down the street is doing (that's not saying be ignorant of your market). If he's stealing, alert the authorities. Other than that, pfft.

I actually wonder how many designers on either How or here know how to do a Trademark search.

And please... A logo smack down? Get off it. I respect Von but this is a childish idea. You are looking at 2 different segments of the industry. Why stoop that low?

[Mynock]

Great link thanks, I kept snoozing off in the HOW thread. I still don't get the rip on the Earnst & Young / White Financial one :confused:
the rip there is that they are so closely related, both being finacials. If the rip would have been an airline or a shoe company it wouldn't've been as big an issue

[morea]

that one on its own would have been a coincidence. But together with the abundance of other evidence, it is part of a trend.

[Kool]

I see what you mean but that's a real stretch. You can't copyright horizontal and verticle bars can you? What in the hell were they thinking on that Xerox one.

Others are running around blindly biting everything else. OMG I spit coke all over my keyboard at this one PD LMAO. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[morea]

bah, its the concept that's the same, not the execution.

[Mynock]

I largely agree with you PrintDriver. It has gotten absurd, but there are certain inconsistencies that have bothered me.
Originally posted by Mynock
Originally posted by tsheet
One more clarification, the Gazelle logo was never used in any marketing materials as is asserted by the Vonster. In fact, one of our own designers spotted it as plagerized work. We terminated our relationship with the designer who did it over a year ago.

Then I ask why did you persist on having this logo on your website a whole year after you recognized it as plagiarized work?

and

Originally posted by Mynock
Originally posted by tsheet
I also want to apologize. I'm truly sorry our little operation has offended so many of you and that so many of you have such strong feelings against us.
Does this sound little?
from Chris Gee's site, which was posted first, I might add.
Originally posted by Jeff Kearl
For the record, we have hundreds of designers that use our system to pick up design projects either for full-time work or as additional work to backfill their other projects.
Originally posted by Jeff Kearl
Lastly, our company has served over 30,000 customers. Our design community has created over 250,000 unique, custom logos.

[morea]

I actually wonder how many designers on either How or here know how to do a Trademark search.

I readily admit that I don't... but then, I am not a logo designer.

[JaCkinbOx]

I readily admit that I don't... but then, I am not a logo designer.

I'll venture a guess at a method. http://www.uspto.gov/

[PrintDriver]

Oh, I'm not defending LW. But I don't have the hard evidence they have done anything other than hire a thieving designer or two. Like I said, sounds like they are blaming their marketing team for pulling stuff for examples that didn't sell. Or it's a good line anyway. That still doesn't explain the stuff popping up on Instalogo. Disgruntled employee maybe? Been known to happen. LOL.

[CHRISGEE]

Oh, I'm not defending LW. But I don't have the hard evidence they have done anything other than hire a thieving designer or two. Like I said, sounds like they are blaming their marketing team for pulling stuff for examples that didn't sell. Or it's a good line anyway. That still doesn't explain the stuff popping up on Instalogo. Disgruntled employee maybe? Been known to happen. LOL.

PrintDriver. You know, anything is possible. But by now, the list of -- at least "questionable" logos -- is pretty long by now. A bit much for a coincedence.

That many "questionable" logos and I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

[PrintDriver]

I'm not denying they have questionable logos. And questionable marketing. And more than questionable Instant Logo parts. But again I stress, it was the designer of the logo who did the stealing. Face it. A DESIGNER. All one can expect of an employer is to fire the employee and make restitution if necessary. I doubt you are going to be able to prove that LW told them to steal the work. I doubt the allegation that low wage is driving the designer to steal is going to fly. And if, as they say, they have a check system in place, they are performing due diligence, which is all the Feds ask. Go check them out if you doubt them but until you know, I'd watch out for the more wild accusations floating around out there.

Quite frankly, anyone who buys a logo from anyone with a disclaimer like that has got to be either stupid, desperate or incredibly cheap. Do you want this client?

[CHRISGEE]

Well for me the issue is one of ethics, not legality. When I do work with a consultancy or firm, I EXPECT the highest level of business ethics. It's not simply a matter of "did someone break a law".

Also, as a business owner, *I* am responsible for what goes on in my firm. If I hire freelancers who consistently rip off work from other designers, that is a POOR REFLECTION on my firm, whether I told them to or not.

And I state again, the episodes of theft have happened too many times for it to be explained away as being the fault of "one bad employee who has since been terminated".

[JaCkinbOx]

I think it's worth noting that even if this case goes nowhere, it's already done a great service in exposing corruption and LogoWorks, and companies like them, are going to be aware that they have to be more careful from here on because we designers are a sharp bunch with keen eyes.

[Vikia]

(snip)...Also, as a business owner, *I* am responsible for what goes on in my firm. If I hire freelancers who consistently rip off work from other designers, that is a POOR REFLECTION on my firm, whether I told them to or not....

I agree Chris, saying that an employee/Designer is at fault (even if true) is lame. Ultimately quality control and responsiblity for the end product (in this case logos) is the Company's. After all clients pay the Company, not the Designer.

[CHRISGEE]

I think it's worth noting that even if this case goes nowhere, it's already done a great service in exposing corruption and LogoWorks, and companies like them, are going to be aware that they have to be more careful from here on because we designers are a sharp bunch with keen eyes.

See, I disagree.

Look around. Everywhere you read, it's "design, design, design"! Others WILL follow LogoWorks. Maybe without the stolen logos and maybe paying a little better (but not much). But they WILL follow. The secret is out, there is MONEY in design! And we were stupid enough to think there wasn't.

I agree with you that this has been a great exercise! Designers now see that we CAN make a difference! So many new blogs have sprung out of this that I can't even keep up.

We can NOT stop here! We need to identify and list blogs and forums where other business individuals hang out and develop messages that resonate with them and extoll the benefits of working with designers.

We have to look inward and recognize the failings that made us commoditized and encourage clients to seek out and patronize a LogoWorks.

Stolen logos aside, they are doing some things right. How many of us have sophisticated, online project management sites that allow clients to

1. view comps
2. view milestones
3. view to-dos
4. post/review messages and correspondences
5. upload/download files

There is no excuse for not offering this level of service to your clients in this day and age. NONE!

We have to keep up a certain level of enthusiasm and stay passionate about getting the word out with respect to the vitues of design. But we also have to get better at what we do. We have to focus on the customer experience and make it our TOP priority.

Folks, MORE LogoWorks types are coming. It's only a matter of time.

[PrintDriver]

Since when is anyone entitled to anything in the business world. You are all starting to sound like a designer is entitled to all the clients and that there is no place for something like Logoworks.

Hate to tell you this but you live in a capitalist country, the EU or the US (at least judging from most respondents here and in How). Once again, while you can argue ethics and quality control, you can't argue that it is a business. Bout time you all woke up and realized, hey, we have no checks in our system. Hate to tell you but it's been happening for over 10 years now. Time to catch up.

Chris said,"There is no excuse for not offering this level of service to your clients in this day and age. NONE!"

This is very, VERY true. Many businesses are streamlining for the effects of the internet and the global market. The concept of instantaneous service 'fast food' mentality has taken hold. What used to take 3 to 5 days is now expected in 24 hours. Yes more Logowork types are coming. They've been coming for a few years now. You ridiculed the do-it-yourself logo kits, you laughed at the raster logo sites and now here you are with a major form of comptetion and you are all surprised. The time to educate the business community was then. Good luck now.

Do you see printers whining about all the on-line, no customer service, do-it-yourself print companies? Not any more. We saw it coming and developed new markets and new methods of printing faster and more economically. Some of us offer less material options than before, some offer more print processes. Sure one of those websites will print cheaper than I ever could but will you get the colors you want, the level of service and stock quality you expect, or the product delivered on schedule? Who knows.

[NewEra]

good work chrisgee

[morea]

Since when is anyone entitled to anything in the business world. You are all starting to sound like a designer is entitled to all the clients and that there is no place for something like Logoworks.

Who said that? It's an alternative to clip art, and I can understand why the idea may appeal to small businesses.

It's a free country, and if they wanted to sell their stuff for $2 they would have every right to. But not if it wasn't theirs to sell! That makes all the difference!

[CHRISGEE]

I agree with Morea. I've NEVER stated that designers had a right to clients and that there was no place for LogoWorks.

To be sure, I have been WARNING about this kind of thing. In the post I wrote which was inspired by the Commarts article by the same title, "Bricklayers or Architects (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8984&highlight=bricklayer)", I stated:

Those with a firm plan in place who position themselves well can reap great rewards as bricklayers. The same can be said for those who position themselves as architects. However, I suspect that many will stick their heads in the sand, as we typically do in this industry, and end up stuck in what will probably end up as a middle ground between the two. The "day worker". Neither a bricklayer OR an architect.

Firms like LogoWorks have clearly staked out a position in the "bricklayer" category. More will come. Fast, cheap, logos for low cost customers who don't want to pay for value-added solutions. Those who are looking for a brand strategy will look elsewhere. To an "architect".

We have to examine processes. We have to examine how we approach customer serivce. We have to begin to take a more value added approach and not just provide deliverables. A LogoWorks can do that and MUCH cheaper than we can!

Do you see printers whining about all the on-line, no customer service, do-it-yourself print companies? Not any more. We saw it coming and developed new markets and new methods of printing faster and more economically. Some of us offer less material options than before, some offer more print processes. Sure one of those websites will print cheaper than I ever could but will you get the colors you want, the level of service and stock quality you expect, or the product delivered on schedule? Who knows.

Maybe where YOU are but here in NYC, I know printers who have been whining since the early 90's! They are just as bad as designers, IMO. There is no question that printers need to get better at what they do as well. They TOO could focus more on customer service and utilize the web far better!

Just as I said for the designers, there is NO excuse why more independent printers don't have online project management tools. In fact, they should have project management tools along with ticketing systems that allow clients to go into the site and order reprints.

In fact, small printers could set themselves up to add secondary revenue streams in document management services. Why only make money when the presses are running? You have ALL the files! In this electronic, global world, that's golden! Printers could store their client files in sophisticated databases and allow traveling clients or clients who work for the same company but in different offices to be able to access documents, message each other, make changes and have docs delivered to wherever they are.

Let's face it. The reason Kinkos' and LogoWorks are eating printers' and designers' lunch is because of a failure of imagination that spand industry-wide. We've been coasting and it's coming to bite us in the butt if we don't wake up!

[PrintDriver]

No one said that, I said, "it's starting to sound like..."

I'm going to ride the wave. So are the outsource vendors I work with. We woke up 5 years ago.

It's not up to me to keep your files for years, but I do on request, if allowed by source contract. And then you scream when I charge a dearchiving fee. If you are a travelling designer, set up your own remote access server. It's part of doing business. The Data Access Manangement system is not there yet (it's coming along in a few years though) that can handle a large full client load by internet. Data Management is one of the new services printers ARE looking into to offer their clients. Access to images and files is already out there. Spotty and protype-like but coming. I don't buy into prototypes. Just like I don't wait in line for new OS's and new program versions. But the industry is actively working on it.

Your lunch only gets eaten if you let someone eat it.

Let's get back to the ethics and the stealing!

[morea]

*runs to kitchen to check on sandwich*

<whew!>

[Drorain]

Let's get back to the ethics and the stealing!

Thats right PD, this is the heart of the matter, and I'm afraid it may become a hunt to try and take down LW instead of making sure they havent taken someone elses mark. The heart of it is that LW was using other peoples marks...Jeff said they werent sold to the client, but that doesn't dismiss the fact they were using the marks in promotional materials which does cause monetary losses to the original designers. Whichever marks are close enough to be plagerism these need to be analyzed by the original buyer/designer then they need to followup with appropriate action and compesation.

This is where I'm suprised the AIGA or GAG hasn't taken up the cause, they are supposed to help provide legal assistance to the designers that have been offended, but they remain silent.

In a completely seperate vein Chris is right we need to discuss methods of countering these mills and developing marketing materials to promote the true professional design industry. Let logoworks have their low paying jobs, I don't know how long the talent will stay there.

But you guys need to be very careful not to slam LW on false pretense...you need to make sure you have solid fact behind you on every accusation, and to me one of the strongest is the Xerox mark...they really screwed up there.

[Jimeda Fork]

Don't know if this has been covered yet, but HP acquired Logoworks in May 2007.

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070424006399&newsLang=en

I actually saw a commercial on tv for them.

[CkretAjint]

Wow... this post is from 2005! lol

[vtwin_gary]

I actually saw a commercial on tv for them.

i saw that as well.
now my customers that didn't know they could buy garbage online now know...:(

[budafist]

Supported by hundreds of graphic designers worldwide, Logoworks’ affordable packages range from simple logo design to the development of a full suite of marketing collateral.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7370/whutianhe2.jpg

[cornfed]

Thanks again for the laugh Buda! I adore that kitty.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

[Mynock]

Another reason to hate HP? I think so.

[WannaBrie]

I'm with you there Mynock. HP sucks and now they suck even more.

[Mynock]

I've grown sick of my HP 5500ps printer. It also doesn't help that I don't have a rip.

[WannaBrie]

I have a crappy HP scanner. I hate it. its slow, it wants to use its own crappy image software if use it directly (not import twain in PS). It sits on my left and everytime I accidently touch it, it starts up. Did I say how much I hate it?

[Mynock]

I have a HP Scanjet 4070 Photosmart scanner. It's ok, but I want a 11x17 scanner. I want bigger.

[carter the artist]

wow, i'm surprised this has lasted this long. Every other time we start discussing type of a discussion they disappear.

[budafist]

This thread didn't last. It was ressurected!

[Jimeda Fork]

I brought it back because I thought it was newsworthy. I saw a commercial on the telly and thought I'd share it. HP is basically validating what we fight against daily.

Even worse, it gives them credibility to be backed by such a large company.

[Mynock]

I thought you killed threads, not bring them back to life. I'm so confused.

[Jimeda Fork]

I thought you killed threads, not bring them back to life. I'm so confused.

Don't worry. I'm just poking around, just to be seen, then poof! Threads will disappear. Don't you worry.

[Patrick Shannon]

http://www.channel4.com/film/media/film/4x/S/shaun_of_the_dead_xl_02.jpg

[D-Frag]

I brought it back because I thought it was newsworthy. I saw a commercial on the telly and thought I'd share it. HP is basically validating what we fight against daily.

Even worse, it gives them credibility to be backed by such a large company.

my thoughts exactly, this is pretty bad news on a larger scale. granted im not a logo designer and probably never will be. it does suck for the "middle class" logo designers who aren't as popular as say Jeff Fisher but aren't at the bottom of the totem poll and still have some respect for what they do, unlike the idiots at logoworks.

I wonder if now that HP bought them out if they are going to be more strict on copying logo designs. I would love to see a studio sue the hell out of HP for copyright infringement and win it big. Suits HP right for even delving into this market, its ludicrous.

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

At least LW ads haven't started appearing on the GDF (yet) - like they did over at the About.com Graphic Design Forum (http://blog-omotives.blogspot.com/2007/10/nothing-like-slap-in-face-to-wake-up.html).

The absolute weirdest thing was the HP marketing person who contacted me directly and asked if I would do a link exchange with LW. WTF?!?!?

- J.

[morea]

wow, that's crazy, Jeff.

[frankster]

The absolute weirdest thing was the HP marketing person who contacted me directly and