thoughts on Michael Moore...

[colonel5]

while reading the "corrupt government" thread it was reminding me of conversations I had almost daily with a lady I worked with for a couple years... Though I could make this an annoying political post, I am just wondering what people's thoughts are on Michael Moore??

[Drorain]

hypocrite - hates big business, but is one himself

I also think he twists and spins everything to serve his own needs. He is part of the far left extreme, and is as dangerous as the far right extremists.

But thats just my opinion

[Kool]

Just like all media he has an agenda, mostly making Michael Moore rich. And just like them he doesn't let the truth get in the way of his agenda.

[Drorain]

well said kool, and in fewer words than me

[vtwin_gary]

ohhh goodie... i thought i might have to fight someone but, there is intelegent life here.

[Jason Fraker]

I think of him as an entertainer, and that makes me want to kill him less. His book "Stupid White Men" is really funny if you don't take it too seriously. He said that for an entire year, he wouldn't hire any white people. The way all that was worded had me laughing out loud (at my desk, while listening to the audiobook on my iPod).

But, I agree with you guys about his methods and agenda. Too bad he really is serious half the time.

[Drorain]

lol my friend is looking into getting into film and he really feels like he needs to counter moore a bit, I'll wait and see

[colonel5]

The reason I ask, is because one of my old colleagues made a film "Michael Moore Hates America". The film had multiple points, none of which were really cheap shots at more. The film was more aimed at exposing the ease of lying when you are making a so called "documentary" and also how great the people of America are, and even though there are a lot of left and right extremists that seem to ruin things, there are normal folks making a living and adding to our country.

Anyone heard of the film or seen it?

http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com

[reuber1]

Oh well, we can all appreciate the farting contest he had with Peter Griffin.

[D-Frag]

The film was more aimed at exposing the ease of lying when you are making a so called "documentary"


Hmmm, I know this may seem like a wierd question, but how does REAL VIDEO lie?

On a side note, he is a hypocrite, but at the same time, he is the only one with balls (and finances) to tell the majority of America that something is eerily wrong, unfortunetly for alot of extremists, they didn't take it with a grain of salt.

If anything, he opened my eyes into getting down to the truth when it comes to our govt. and for that I thank him, on the other hand, hes a douche, but he has done alot of good for alot of people.

[reuber1]

I'll agree with D-Frag. Yeah, he's a total bag of douche, but he at least pushes you to open your eyes up and say "WTF?" every now and then. He does make people think.

[Neballer]

I think he's done some good, as far as getting a lot of young people into and aware of the political process. But that in itself can be bad if said young people aren't thinking for themselves and are only listen to what he has to say.

[colonel5]

Hmmm, I know this may seem like a wierd question, but how does REAL VIDEO lie?

It's called video editing and audio splicing. Taking different video clips, audio clips and moving them all together can create some very funny ideas or make a lot of things look to be something else in order to support your agenda.

Example: The opening to "Bowling for Columbine" I first watched it and said "wow, that's messed up" then I watched an interview with those same people from the bank and they said what really happened.

Michael Moore and his team are very talented at what they do, that's why they get millions to buy into it... and I'm not going to deny that there is a lot wrong with america, but Michael Moore paints a very distorted picture of it.

[Crimson]

I'm entertained my Micheal Moore. I enjoy his films and they make me think. Maybe he's a hypocrit but I don't think he denies it. The old karate films used to say - "Only a Ninja can Kill another Ninja" or to the point - It takes one to know one. Jesus is only person I know of that could call someone a hypocrit and get away with it. Personally, i don't know Micheal Moore well enough to cast stones. Yes, he might put spin on things that could be seen as manipulative but to a degree it works to making you say WTF. Does he have a Blog? Time to google.

[colonel5]

the youth and michael moore is something i like to call the marylin manson complex which ravaged our nation about 7-10 years ago... and it can be wrapped up in this alliteration: Anti-conformity conformity.

I'm all for thinking for yourself if you're actually thinking for yourself

[DeleteYourself]

I agree with D-Frag, how can REAL VIDEO lie? Michael Moore doesn't hate America, but like me, he hates the direction our country is heading in. I think he brings of lots of good points.

Of course he's going to spin the stories he tells, because he's trying to persuade people to think a certain way. He's never claimed to be an un-biased journalist. Yes, he's out to make money, yes he's out to make a difference and yes he's going to lean (far) to the left.

Liberals need a Karl Rove. Michael Moore is it.

[danedawg99]

Hmmm, I know this may seem like a wierd question, but how does REAL VIDEO lie?

On a side note, he is a hypocrite, but at the same time, he is the only one with balls (and finances) to tell the majority of America that something is eerily wrong, unfortunetly for alot of extremists, they didn't take it with a grain of salt.

If anything, he opened my eyes into getting down to the truth when it comes to our govt. and for that I thank him, on the other hand, hes a douche, but he has done alot of good for alot of people.


what he said!

[colonel5]

Actually he does claim to be an un-biased journalist every time he releases a movie he claims is a "documentary" thats what a documentary is, an un-biased presentation of the facts.

He is a very opinionated man, like any of us, and he is very good at twisting things to move people to his point of view, he makes more editorial films, and i think really that's my only issue. Because you can believe what you want, but don't make a film about it and call it a documentary.

[Rocketpig]

Of course he's going to spin the stories he tells, because he's trying to persuade people to think a certain way. He's never claimed to be an un-biased journalist.

Then he shouldn't call his works "documentaries".

[DeleteYourself]

Who the hell says a documentary has to be unbiased? I think the exact opposite is true of a great number of documentaries. Look at Leni Riefenstahl (http://www.leni-riefenstahl.de/eng/index.html), considered to be one of the greatest documentarians every. She made documentaries for Hitler, which were used primarily as German pride boosters.

[colonel5]

Who the hell says a documentary has to be unbiased?

oops, sorry, i was just going by the dictionary definition...
-----------------------
doc·u·men·ta·ry P Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r)
adj.
Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

n. pl. doc·u·men·ta·ries
A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.
-------------------------

So when peoples bias stop being presented as facts in documentaries... well you get the picture

[DeleteYourself]

1.Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2.Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

When a word has multiple definitions, either can be true. Are Moore's films not "consiting of, concerning, or based on documents"? Why yes! They are! Just because some documentaries are objective, it's not a requirement for being called a documentary. So are Riefenstahl's films not documentaries?

[jimking]

1.Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2.Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

When a word has multiple definitions, either can be true. Are Moore's films not "consiting of, concerning, or based on documents"? Why yes! They are! Just because some documentaries are objective, it's not a requirement for being called a documentary. So are Riefenstahl's films not documentaries?
Propaganda then?

[colonel5]

propaganda at best...

no need to work yourself into a hissy fit DY. but if you want to get real technical the 2nd meaning is what is used to describe published media... thus, "presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film" would apply...

[DeleteYourself]

Last time I checked, recordings and video clips were considered documents, and therefore definition 1 applies too.

[DeleteYourself]

Furthermore, how can you create a piece of art, entertainment, or even journalism for that matter and not have it be biased. It's impossible. We are humans who see and interpret the world differently. By simply "reporting" on something, you are giving your interpretation becasue it's your account of how something happened.

The real standard we should judge news and information by is fairness. Moore isn't my favorite person, nor am I going to say he's a prophet or anything, but you can't deny that he brings up some compelling points.

[Rocketpig]

Last time I checked, recordings and video clips were considered documents, and therefore definition 1 applies too.

You're using semantics to get around the fact that Michael Moore presents his opinion as truth, when in many cases, it's not.

Call it a documentary or whatever you please, but he still twists facts and calls them truths, duping people into believing half-truths or flat-out lies. Don't get me wrong, he brings up some very valid and disconcerting points, but it's a little too hard at times to weed the facts out of his extremely biased point of view.

He then continually accuses his enemies of doing the very same thing.

At best he's a hypocrite, at worst he's a demagogue.

The "truth" probably lies somewhere in between.

[DeleteYourself]

Can someone point out Moore's half-truths and lies for me? Or point me in the direction of a reputable source citing his twisted facts?

I still don't see how you can make video lie.

[Rocketpig]

Can someone point out Moore's half-truths and lies for me? Or point me in the direction of a reputable source citing his twisted facts?

I still don't see how you can make video lie.

I do remember him editing several different speeches and making them appear as one in Columbine... He also mixed up dates in Columbine to villianize Heston (not that it takes a lot to villianize that man) into looking like a cold-hearted ***** after the incident (when in fact the speeches occurred previous to Columbine).

I'll see if I can find one of the articles I read about Columbine awhile back... It listed dates and locations and transcripts for the speeches Moore accused Heston of making after Columbine.

[colonel5]

sure thing

http://www.moorewatch.com (click "start here")
http://www.moorelies.com (click on articles)

these are two big sources of moore's deception...

I'm with RocketPig, do what you're gonna do, but lets call a spade a spade.

[Ryan8720]

I think Michael Moore's best appearance in film has been Team America. ;)

[uncle carbunkle]

no need to work yourself into a hissy fit DY.

pretty classy, colonel5.

keep it civil, please.

[DeleteYourself]

unc's my hero. :swoon:

thanks for the links, I'll check em out and get back to you.

[colonel5]

stay classy san diego

[defjoe]

he hates Bush... so that is one positive about him.

[DeleteYourself]

good point, joe.

[DeleteYourself]

I've skimmed through enough of the links to admit that Moore did some shady things. (I never really doubted this ... I just hadn't read the critiques first hand.) I still think he brings up lots of good points, despite the twisting of several issues. But let me point out one thing: I challenge any hardcore right-wingers to read Al Franken's "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them."

I've always said that one of the major differences between the liberals and conservatives that I personally know, is that lefties don't mind researching the other's side to get the whole picture, while righties refuse to do so. And for the recrod, I have good number of close friends on both sides of the fence. Not stereotyping here, just speaking from my own personal experience.

[colonel5]

yes, cause hate is a positive, we need some more hate, anyone have some more hate?, i think we lack in that here in america, we need some more hate to add to the positive life of america

[defjoe]

Yea HATE! gotta love the hate!

[DeleteYourself]

It's perfectly OK to hate some people:

* Hitler
* Idi Amin (spelling?)
* Osama Bin Ladin
* Tom Cruise
* George Bush

[Magnus]

I hate people who hide behind the term "hate" but have no qualms about using it when it's conveniant for them to do so.

[Kool]

It's perfectly OK to hate some people:

* Hitler
* Idi Amin (spelling?)
* Osama Bin Ladin
* Tom Cruise
* George Bush

You forgot Rosie O Donnel :D

[Magnus]

Actually, to expand on what I said, "hate" isn't the problem. It's manipulation and dishonesty in the name of greed and the pursuit of power that creates issues.

For example, If I don't like you, I'll come right out and tell you. At least you know where you stand with me. There's no backstabbing and behind the scenes scheming going on. The problem begins when you conceal a sword behind a smile, as so many politicians do.

I'd say you have bigger issues to worry about in the USA than "hate". Humans hate..it's part of our nature. We also love, to balance it out. Get over it.

[morea]

You forgot Rosie O Donnel :D

^ ooh, good one! lol :p

[Neballer]

But let me point out one thing: I challenge any hardcore right-wingers to read Al Franken's "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them."


Ah Mr. Franken, yet another gem for our great state.
I don't think it's possible for these "hardcore" right-wingers to read that book. Ann Coulter, the women who's books Franken tore apart in his, when asked about the points brought up in "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." about her book "Slander." All she had to say was something like, "Pancake Franken, he doesn't know what he's talking about."

These people cannot converse like adults, if you don't agree with them - well, then pancake you too.

[DeleteYourself]

'xactly.

[Mynock]

It's perfectly OK to hate some people:

* Hitler
* Idi Amin (spelling?)
* Osama Bin Ladin
* Tom Cruise
* George Bush
Is Oprah okay to hate?

[colonel5]

These people cannot converse like adults, if you don't agree with them - well, then pancake you too.

^^ are you speaking of the extreme right or extreme left? cause to me that just takes on the whole spectrum of political arguements. We take social and moral values and base them off our (or most likely, whatever political voice we buy into) opinion and shut off everyone else.
I find myself caught in the middle, frustrated with both left and right, and it seems the extremists on both sides really all have the same attitude... agree with me or f**k off...

Is there a possibility to get beyond this level of discourse?

[Neballer]

Is there a possibility to get beyond this level of discourse?

I was talking about the right, but I agree that it happens on both sides all too often.

And if we can (read: should) get beyond that level, I think we/them could stop wading through all the bullsh!t and get things done that really matter.

[colonel5]

^right on

[Mynock]

Why can't we all get along?
http://www.atlanticblog.com/archives/astamazal09.jpg
http://www.fidelco.org/photos/images/photo03_big.jpg

[EC]

he still twists facts and calls them truths, duping people into believing half-truths or flat-out lies. Don't get me wrong, he brings up some very valid and disconcerting points, but it's a little too hard at times to weed the facts out of his extremely biased point of view.

He then continually accuses his enemies of doing the very same thing.

At best he's a hypocrite, at worst he's a demagogue.

The "truth" probably lies somewhere in between.

As I skimmed through this thread, I was quite certain we were talking about Karl Rove and the BushCo. PR/SPIN machine.

[GreenThumb]

yes, cause hate is a positive, we need some more hate, anyone have some more hate?, i think we lack in that here in america, we need some more hate to add to the positive life of america

How is it possible to NOT hate Bush?

[EC]

prop·a·gan·da

NOUN:

1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

I have always said that Michael Moore is a propagandist. People hear the word and associate it with "liar" but really ... where in that definition does it say that?

I think his movies are funny, entertaining, and offer up a point of view that allows people to question their assumptions. NOBODY should read or watch ANYTHING without thinking critically. I mean, on any given evening, Fox News serves up propaganda and calls it "news" ... Point, counterpoint.

I just laugh when I hear people making such a fuss over the word "documentary" -- they ALL have a point of view. Ever watch the discovery/times channel? Mostly documentaries, I haven't seen one that doesn't present a point-of-view.

So for people that are concerned that Michael Moore is "deceptive" by calling his films documentaries - what are we really talking about here? It's that "people are too stupid to think critically." And whose fault is that? lol

Still, I don't like the "far left" being associated with Michael Moore anymore than I'm sure most on the right want to be associated with Ann Coulter and Fred Phelps.

[GreenThumb]

Hmmm, I know this may seem like a wierd question, but how does REAL VIDEO lie?



I dont like or dislike Moore but he definitely skews and manipulates actual video. Its ALL in the editing. That is exactly why documentaries like these have a severe potential to mislead-because of the common notion that since its real footage, the content must be relevant to the context.

Not so. The only positive thing about Moore is that by doing all these documentaries (mockumentaries), he does bring into debate the issues and counters the right wing conservative spin that is overwhemingly predominant in the news media nowadays.

[colonel5]

well I didn't vote for him but I don't hate him. I am very frustrated with the political action (or lack thereof) and ability to not get much done. But do you really think it would be all that different had Kerry won? Yes it would be different in the fact that Kerry's people would be forcing a different agenda for him to follow, but I don't believe we'd be better off. It's kind of a lesser of two evils all depending on which way you lean...

A friend of mine hates Bush for the same reason the majority of people hate him do, but she'll admit that life wouldn't greatly improve with Kerry in there, I mean how sad is that, a majority of Kerry's votes are under a "anyone but Bush" campaign?

This is an excerpt from my personal Dictionary:

politics = damned if you do, damned if you don't (at least the state america's government the past couple decades)

[Magnus]

"It's that "people are too stupid to think critically." And whose fault is that? lol"

That's the truth. There should be a sign hanging over every building entrance on the planet until it sinks into people's heads.

[EC]

My pet goldfish could do a better job than Bush. lol You're saying that all politicians are the same, but I strongly disagree. Some presidents are better than others.

[colonel5]

i'm not saying all presidents are the same, we've had some great ones... and I didn't care for Clinton or his antics, but he did a few good things, just as bush is doing a few good things... my point is that overall in the grand scheme of things politics come out the same at the other end because in our current system everyone's hands are tied. right, left, independent, whatever

[defjoe]

Jesse "The Body" Ventura in 08!

[jimking]

What is "Dhimmi" --does anybody know?

[morea]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

[Rocketpig]

As I skimmed through this thread, I was quite certain we were talking about Karl Rove and the BushCo. PR/SPIN machine.

It works for them, too. Moore and Bush aren't nearly as different as either one of them would like to admit.

The unfortunate thing is that one of them is President and the other is just a loud-mouthed slob.

[EC]

i'm not saying all presidents are the same, we've had some great ones... and I didn't care for Clinton or his antics, but he did a few good things, just as bush is doing a few good things... my point is that overall in the grand scheme of things politics come out the same at the other end because in our current system everyone's hands are tied. right, left, independent, whatever

Tied by the highest bidder is how I see it. I'm not sure what problems you see in the "current system" but for me -- it's all about the benjamins. We need to remove money from politics, and then we just might stand a chance at little democracy 'round here.

I can understand why people don't bother to vote, but that doesn't help matters either. Paying attention and voting is all we've got, and it saddens me that so many people talk about democracy and freedom but don't cherish and practice it.

[Neballer]

Jesse "The Body" Ventura in 08!

LMAO, Finally somebody's thinking clearly. :D

[EC]

The unfortunate thing is that one of them is President and the other is just a loud-mouthed slob.

With less blood on his hands. And I don't remember Michael Moore racking up the largest deficit in history, lying us into war, appointing his cronies into prominent positions, and well, I could go on all day. I'll take my chances with the loud-mouthed slob thanks. lol

[Rocketpig]

With less blood on his hands. And I don't remember Michael Moore racking up the largest deficit in history, lying us into war, appointing his cronies into prominent positions, and well, I could go on all day. I'll take my chances with the loud-mouthed slob thanks. lol

I'd rather take my chances with neither of them.

I detest radicals, no matter which side of the political spectrum they sit.

[EC]

word.

[colonel5]

i'm hungry, i want some lunch...

[EC]

me too, I have a lunch meeting but it's not for a few hours (it's only 9:30am where I am). I'm already know I'm having grilled halibut and salad, mmmmm.

[morea]

I had a taco. :D

[Drorain]

me too, I have a lunch meeting but it's not for a few hours (it's only 9:30am where I am). I'm already know I'm having grilled halibut and salad, mmmmm.

ohhhh halibut....mmmmmmm :D

[morea]

sounds like a joke... want to go out to lunch?

sure, for the halibut.


ok, not as funny as it was in my head. lol

[EC]

Lol

[EC]

Crap. Well the good news is, I thought it was Thursday but it's only Wednesday, so I have one more day to work on two deadline projects due Friday.

The bad news? No halibut until tomorrow. :(

[morea]

aw, here you go EC. You can have mine.

http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/lineart/atlantic%20halibut.jpg

[Jason Fraker]

GWB is not my favorite president or anything, but what kind of guy could John Kerry possibly be if he can't even beat GWB? I mean, the guy had crappy approval rating and a series of awful, world-changing events happen in his first term. He led us into a war that apparantly nobody wanted, and was absolutely the worst public speaker I've ever seen in the Oval Office. Yet, he beat John Kerry. Fair and square. Nobody's been yapping about fixed elections or dimpled chads this time. Won.

[DeleteYourself]

Daddy's money and namesake helped out a lot.

And I call shennanigans on the "fair and square."
(at least on the first term)

[Jason Fraker]

On the first term, maybe. But, even with all the shennanigans of the 2000 election, and daddy's money and blah blah, he still beat John Kerry like Ike beat Tina! Fair and Square!

[colonel5]

i had chipotle and i hit up the Old Navy clearance section... you can't beat Lunch and 3 shirts for $17.40

[Neballer]

Free Godfathers Pizza Buffett.

[EC]

Oh man, we don't have Godfathers here anymore but we did in highschool. That's the place where they make those little potato mojo things right? Dipped in ranch dressing? Heaven. Well, anything dipped in ranch dressing pretty much is.

[Neballer]

LOL - potato mojo things. (way cooler name)

I think they're called jojos- and yes dipped in ranch they are quite delicious.

[Drawing a Blank]

GWB is not my favorite president or anything, but what kind of guy could John Kerry possibly be if he can't even beat GWB? I mean, the guy had crappy approval rating and a series of awful, world-changing events happen in his first term. He led us into a war that apparantly nobody wanted, and was absolutely the worst public speaker I've ever seen in the Oval Office. Yet, he beat John Kerry. Fair and square. Nobody's been yapping about fixed elections or dimpled chads this time. Won.

I'm not a fan of Kerry (just wanted to preface my statement).
I keep hearing people say that the election was won "fair and square" and I just want to say this...how can anyone prove beyond a doubt that any U.S. election in the past hundred years has been won "fair and square"???

[colonel5]

i love the dessert pizza at godfathers.... mmmm, i want that for dinner! oh well, free food at a church bbq will do quite well too ;o)