What happened to quality

[PrintDriver]

A friend of mine showed me an article in a little town paper about a print shop that was closing after 33 years in the business. They were a small shop with in a very limited, rural market.

What stuck out in the article was a quote by the owner on one of the reasons he was shutting down - other than the online quick printers and city folk horning into his territory. He said that he offered a product that was better than most people have come to expect and went on to say that today people seem to expect less of a product and they expect to pay less for it, and he just couldn't operate like that. He wouldn't cut quality and he couldn't afford to cut pricing and still afford the good workers he had on.

It's really sad that receiving quality product is always a surprise. And it's really amazing sometimes what people will accept in lieu of it.

[morea]

that's really sad. :(

[Kool]

Really sad. I can see a time in the not to distant future when all the mom & pops will be gone.

[defjoe]

We have become a nation of lazy bums and now it's expected to get a lazy product. anything better is a bonus. It's in the attitude of the kids getting out of college also. they are lazy and want everything handed to them. so that is what is going into the workforce. This is sad... but not suprising.

[DeleteYourself]

I would write a heartfelt response, here, but fuggit. I'm too damn lazy.

[jimking]

This has happened to alot of trades and crafts in the US. For example, Quebacor one of the largest printers in the Americas is selling off their US printing plants and sending their printing to China.

[(brackets)]

Sad to see any small business have to close their doors - I can imagine the changes in the industry he would have seen over 33 years - and bloody Good for him for refusing to sacrifice his integrity and a quality product for quick, cheap and nasty. Happens too often.

(It seems Quality and Apathy don't mix well at all)

[Broacher]

As someone who has tried repeatedly to pitch for quality in the printing tender/bidding process of the corporations I've worked for-- and who has repeatedly failed at convincing the powers that be to consider anything other than the price, I sure am familiar with this trend.

Many of the best printers I've spoken to recently remain optimistic, often saying it's just a matter of time before customers return to a better understanding of quality and the true value it represents.

Maybe because I'm a graphic designer and have seen the same apathetic erosion of high standards happening within our field for some time now, that the glass not only looks half empty, but it seems to be getting a lot smaller too.

[Mynock]

Walmartization of the printing industry.

[Drorain]

Meanwhile Vista's stock are stable between 18-19 bucks an hour....

oh i could go off on that whole online printing/mill mentality, but for certain reasons I must restrain

[PersonasBinar]

Watching Quebcor's growth over the years using the buy, junk, take the client list busness model, has been a sad thing to watch. From the service bureau hey days of the 90's here in Toronto, small shops were aquired and gutted, the talent scattered to the winds. Remember the days when .jpg was verboten? Now I get indexed gifs peeled off web sites for content. It seems that in the "instant" comsumer society we are blindly marching towards we expect less because we got it "now". Printed pieces I wouldn't show as a proof are given sign off, leaving me baffled.

**I had a request the other day to get a frame from a product quicktime 360 to use as a printed picture. After I stopped laughing I realized they were serious. I then called the marketing dept of said company and within 10 minutes had downloaded the entire marketing content for 2006. It's not difficult to be quick and maintain quality, but when they see the image on the net it's like they simply have to have it. All the power yet none of the knowledge.....a dangerous combination.

[steve-o]

Happening with everything. Value is being increasingly placed on, accessibility, timeliness, cost, features, style, and customization rather than quality. Try finding a piece of furniture that will last a 100 years. Try buying a pair of pants that will last even 2 years. Try finding a tv that will last 20 years.

This shift is inevitable. No company can survive offering monolithic products and services that last, so they create different incentives to buy.

Of course you can find quality products that last, but they are rare and the cost is astronimical.

[PrintDriver]

Whoa DLucks
You would be an exception to the rule.
Don't personalize everything you read here and interpret what you do read in the context of the thread.
And a mod is entitled to an opinion just like everyone else. It wasn't directed at you or any other student here. Unless it applies :D...

You will have to bust your hump just as much to get a job once you get out of school.

Joe only points out, as he has in several other threads, that the piece of paper a student gets when graduating does not entitle anyone to anything. It's amazing the number of applicants at places where I've worked in the last 15 years that want to start in management without having the slightest clue about process based solely on their piece of paper. And many of them have quit when given a rank and file job cuz the people over them didn't have that piece of paper - regardless of what they could have learned from them. The chip on their shoulder was not only visible but annoying as hell.

[TheBluePanda]

http://badgas.co.uk/chicken/quality.jpg

[D Lucks]

As a mod he should know better then to be making such statements.

[morea]

D Lucks, keep your eyes open, even here on this forum. You may well be the exception to the rule, but there are MANY many college grads who expect dream jobs right out of school and have enormous chips on their shoulders.

Also, bear in mind that our forum code of conduct specifies that we treat one another with RESPECT here. You can disagree *respectfully* to what someone says, but don't call names and insult people.

[morea]

Here's the link to the GDF Code of Conduct (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7787)

[Mynock]

Even as a mod he's entitled to his opinion.

[D Lucks]

D Lucks, keep your eyes open, even here on this forum. You may well be the exception to the rule, but there are MANY many college grads who expect dream jobs right out of school and have enormous chips on their shoulders.

Also, bear in mind that our forum code of conduct specifies that we treat one another with RESPECT here. You can disagree *respectfully* to what someone says, but don't call names and insult people.
And I clearly wasn't insulted? My eyes are open. I see it everyday with some of my classmates. I'm a laid back person normally, but if you want to be an @ss and make those kind of assumptions and sterotypes you won't get away with it to easily.

[D Lucks]

Even as a mod he's entitled to his opinion.
He better be able to back it up. I know for a fact that I work harder then a good majority of people I know in the field. Did I say I work harder then people in the industry? No, because I know there is people out there working 70+ hours. Yes, there is people that want things handed to them, but it just isn't "kids" from college. It's our society in general that is making a move towards it.

[morea]

It's not like he said "D Lucks is lazy and expects to have everything handed to him". There is no reason for you to be offended, particularly if you see it going on with your own classmates. He didn't say "EVERYBODY in college is lazy". I can't understand why you are taking this so personally.

As Mynock said, even mods are entitled to have their own opinions as much as anyone else here. I wouldn't recommend starting a flame war over this. We don't put up with that here.

As I said, you can disagree *with respect*, but name calling and telling people what they can and can't "get away with" certainly don't go over well.

[Logo-Mechanix]

When I got out of school I worked in toys r us for 2 years before I even found a job in the field and it was at a small print shop making less than ten bucks an hour and working 12 hour days and than the SOB tells everyone they will be put on salary and he still expects you to work overtime. Which I found out was illegal when I turned him into the labor board. But now I have a great job for a promotional products company as well as my own side business. Just thought D Lucks might want to know whats ahead.

[reuber1]

Yup. Still working at Target as a low level salesfloor employee and now working as a support tech for a small software developer, hourly at both jobs, and both less than $10/hour. I haven't even gotten as far as getting a production job...I've had three interviews since graduating college (May, 2004). In my "free" time I'm working on my portfolio/self-promo/website/etc because the quality of those that I had from college were sh!t, and I'm totally starting from scratch. Those pieces of paper (yes, pieces plural, I graduated twice) don't guarantee anything in this field.

[Kool]

Way way out of line there D Lucks. As everyone has said it wasn't directed at you personally. You need to chill way out before posting any more in this thread.

[D Lucks]

He didn't say "EVERYBODY in college is lazy".
It's in the attitude of the kids getting out of college also. they are lazy and want everything handed to them.
A little word smithing, but none the less the same meaning.

When I got out of school I worked in toys r us for 2 years before I even found a job in the field and it was at a small print shop making less than ten bucks an hour and working 12 hour days
Wouldn't need a job if I got a buck everytime I heard a story like that over the past two years!;)

[JPnyc]

He didn't specifically target you, as you did in reply. I deleted the post in which you did so. Please be more circumspect in your posts to fellow members.

[D Lucks]

He didn't specifically target you, as you did in reply. I deleted the post in which you did so. Please be more circumspect in your posts to fellow members.
Um, didn't directly use my name, but I was still targeted here!

[JPnyc]

It was a generalized statement, and not particularly offensive at that. Your reply was a direct personal attack, and represented a considerable escalation of hostility. Please do not repeat it.

[Kool]

OK D Lucks, it seems like you are determined to have a fight here so I'm gonna do you a favor by suspending you for one day. You will be able to post again tomorrow by which time I hope you will have cooled down and be able to participate in this forum in a respectable way.

Your friendly moderator
Kool

[Tyger]

I don't want to quote what you said, but you know what you said....with that attitude my friend, you'll have a hard time in life. You response is evident of the mindset Defjoe described. Instead of backing up your fellow students respectfully you verbally attacked someone's opinion.

I know what it is like to bust your balls in school and slave a way just to try and better your future, and i know it's tough to be generalized by one person. It's just an opinion. I'm sure you work hard and strive to be your best, but you can't let one persons opinion get you all riled up. In this industry you will encounter many opinions that you will not agree with, but you have to be humble and work with those around you the best way you can.

[defjoe]

D lucks... you want me to back it up? you PM me and i'll show you how it is!

It's MY opinion... freedom of speech young man. the attitude you are showing is EXACTUALLY proving my point.

thank you

[reuber1]

D-Lucks, you need to take subtle absolutes with a grain of salt. It's not like he's wrong, though. I see this laziness in my new bosses, that's for sure. There are very few college kids that I've met that actually work hard and have earned what they've been given.

[defjoe]

I have read many articles on this (it's in al lthe newpapers) and the fact that I WORK for a University I see it all the time.

Now it's not EVERYONE! but it seems to becoming more common in our youth that they want stuff handed to them.

We also hear it all the time in this forum, also. Said person graduates from college and can't find a job or then if they do, they complain that this isn't what they thought it would be. money is bad, they aren't actually designing all that much, etc.

[reuber1]

We also hear it all the time in this forum, also. Said person graduates from college and can't find a job or then if they do, they complain that this isn't what they thought it would be. money is bad, they aren't actually designing all that much, etc.Not like I've ever done that... :p

[Chris79]

When I left college, I fully intended on spending 1-3 years doing something that sucked and hoping to get promoted to something that would get me on track for a real career.

I'm one of the lucky ones, though. I stepped right out of the uni doors and right into this job which I enjoy very much. And my degree is not in design, it is in English / Creative writing. Designing graphics was just a hobby for me at the time.

Even though I had no REAL portfolio and no design degree, the owner must've liked my attitude or liked something I showed him on the day we met for lunch. I was hired on the spot as a contractor first, then a year later as a full employee. I am immensely grateful for whatever powers that be who are responsible for this. :)

[Drorain]

I started at one of these huge online printhouses, it does suck, I felt like I was committing an ethical sin against my fellow GDers, so what did I do, I took the experience I could from there, and searched for a job. I got one and left that place in my dust now I'm making more and I'm much better satisfied working in an inhouse design dept.

The online printers are changing the face of the industry. I like StepPrinting ,who posts here, because he has seemed to cross the mom/pop in with online printing, instead of being a cold corporate type of company.

Dlucks please dont exhibit any hostility, what joe said is true, I worked like a bitch to get a job. Many of my classmates arent even in the industry...they are simply 'freelancing' which in some cases means they are doing nothing but pondering their degree.

[PrintDriver]

Wow, what happened to the 'quality' of this thread?

LOL.

[PersonasBinar]

'Straight to hell boy'
The Clash

[Rocketpig]

Since civilized man picked up a stone and used it as a tool, he has claimed that the next generation is lazier than him because they had it easier (since he first picked up the stone).

Man has also claimed that society is going to hell in a handbasket since he first saw his children pick up that stone and use it differently than he did.

Nothing changes. Kids nowadays aren't any lazier than their fathers, and society is still not going to hell in a handbasket.

Claiming such is a product of aging and viewing your own childhood through rose-colored glasses.

[Broacher]

The thing is, everybody with a stone today thinks he knows everything about stones and how to use them.

When I was starting out, nobody had stones. Just very coarse sand. And brother, if you didn't have enough spit in you then you had to ::OWCH!!!::

Okay... who threw that?

[morea]

ok, who's responsible for Broacher getting stoned?

[PrintDriver]

LOL.
Uphill both ways.

All of this is, like Steve-o mentioned, a function of 'want it NOW'. Can't wait. Gotta have it. I can't have this etched in stone overnight but I can have it hand painted by the neighbor's kid? Ok. I'll go with the neighbor's kid.

[jlknauff]

Really sad. I can see a time in the not to distant future when all the mom & pops will be gone.No, not gone, many will start up & go out of business - heavy churn.

[LeftBrain Artist]

Ahem.

So what happened to quality anyway? A sales rep from one of our printers has discussed this with us before. They tend to focus more on quality than most people in the area, but they too are continually being held to the fire to drop their prices at the expense of quality. He's made the remark that at some point there will be a "quality backlash" but I think it may be some time in coming. The shift away from quality in favor of low price is a common mentality prevalent throughout business today, and I think can be directly linked to a sluggish, sputtering economy. With GM laying off 30,000 people and closing 9 U.S. plants, things don't look to be improving.

Tighten your belts and get used to eating beans and weenies, the hard times are comin'.

D Lucks, don't take things so personally. Fear, hatred, the dark side this is.

[jimking]

Ahem.

So what happened to quality anyway? A sales rep from one of our printers has discussed this with us before. They tend to focus more on quality than most people in the area, but they too are continually being held to the fire to drop their prices at the expense of quality. He's made the remark that at some point there will be a "quality backlash" but I think it may be some time in coming. The shift away from quality in favor of low price is a common mentality prevalent throughout business today, and I think can be directly linked to a sluggish, sputtering economy. With GM laying off 30,000 people and closing 9 U.S. plants, things don't look to be improving.

Tighten your belts and get used to eating beans and weenies, the hard times are comin'.

D Lucks, don't take things so personally. Fear, hatred, the dark side this is.
It's like this, I'm given a job as CEO of public owned Sears. I layoff 10,000 folks which boosts the value of Sears stock which then tells the stock holders what a great job I'm doing which then gives me a hunk of money from my 100,000 shares of stock given me by Sears in our contract negotiation. Usually the laying off of people is a lazy way to boost stock prices for us the stock holder.

[Thrillz]

Quality got lost somewhere between the invention of the word "Synergy" and the phrase "Time Is Money."

[flutterby nut]

what, you didn't get a bonus jimking?...no fair!...lol

[jimking]

what, you didn't get a bonus jimking?...no fair!...lol
I sure did, 50,000 shares! I forgot to mention, I bought 50,000 shares before the layoffs.:D

[flutterby nut]

hehe!...mighty convenient!

[LeftBrain Artist]

Quality got lost somewhere between the invention of the word "Synergy" and the phrase "Time Is Money."

I think you can narrow it down a bit further - between "turn key" and "action items".

And you're right Jimking - it is a lazy way to boost stock prices so CEOs can make a quick score. But the stocks should eventually drop back down as the blow to the labor force will eventually result in a loss of consumer buying power which will in turn lead to more outsourcing and layoffs - a vicious cycle that end with us in the gutter groveling for farm raised tilape heads and bugs that are beneath the tastes of our Chinese masters.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[jimking]

I think you can narrow it down a bit further - between "turn key" and "action items".

And you're right Jimking - it is a lazy way to boost stock prices so CEOs can make a quick score. But the stocks should eventually drop back down as the blow to the labor force will eventually result in a loss of consumer buying power which will in turn lead to more outsourcing and layoffs - a vicious cycle that end with us in the gutter groveling for farm raised tilape heads and bugs that are beneath the tastes of our Chinese masters.

Happy Thanksgiving!
You are 100% right. What's really scary is peoples retirement 401k. I'm still not sure if that so called deal is going to pan out in 20 years. However, I've heard that if you place $200,000.00 in mutual funds for 12 or 13 years at 13% it could net you $1,000.000.00. I need to check into that!
:rolleyes:

[Rocketpig]

The shift away from quality in favor of low price is a common mentality prevalent throughout business today, and I think can be directly linked to a sluggish, sputtering economy. With GM laying off 30,000 people and closing 9 U.S. plants, things don't look to be improving.

What gives you the impression that the economy is sputtering?

Every economic index available shows that it's actually doing quite well.

[EC]

Yeah it's awesome. Until we have to pay China back. lol

[LeftBrain Artist]

What gives you the impression that the economy is sputtering?

Every economic index available shows that it's actually doing quite well.


Oh.

I've been brainwashed by the liberal media. Again. I dunno, I kinda thought lack of new jobs being created in the production sector, trends in outsourcing, stagnant real wages compared to inflation, staggering national debt, and other such trivialities were kind of sort of, bad signs. But I suppose they're not really related to the economic indicies, depending on how you define "economy" and "relates". Did I mention I'm not really an economic professor? I just play one at work.

[Rocketpig]

Oh.

I've been brainwashed by the liberal media. Again. I dunno, I kinda thought lack of new jobs being created in the production sector, trends in outsourcing, stagnant real wages compared to inflation, staggering national debt, and other such trivialities were kind of sort of, bad signs. But I suppose they're not really related to the economic indicies, depending on how you define "economy" and "relates". Did I mention I'm not really an economic professor? I just play one at work.

Jobs will decrease in the production sector. It's inevitable. The US is going to lose manufacturing jobs to Asia simply because there is no way we can ever compete with labor rates.

Housing prices have been skyrocketing for several years.
The Dow Jones is consideraby higher than it was two years ago.
Unemployment rates have been consistently dropping for two years.

Is the economy perfect? Hardly. Is it sputtering? I have a hard time finding anything that indicates that it's nearly as bad as you say.

[LeftBrain Artist]

Yep housing prices have skyrocketed. I would argue artificially so, due to the low interest rates which were brought that low to get people to take on mortgages. Which worked. The low interest rates is what drove up property values, though, and not better, higher quality houses. A bubble in the housing market has been created thusly. Whats even scarier about this is the fact that a huge portion of the jobs that have been created in the last couple of years are tied up in the housing boom. So if that market should hiccup for any reason, it could be very bad.

The Dow Jones is higher. Yeah. So what. "Stocks have reached a permanently high plateau" - that from Yale's professor of economics in 1929. I don't believe stock market indicators can be trusted with analyzing the contents of my lunch bag.

Unemployment rates have been consistently dropping for the last two years. What new jobs have been created? Here's a breakdown from an article by Paul Craig Roberts from CounterPunch which reviewed a report of a reported job growth of 207,000 in July:

Of the new jobs, 26,000 (about 13%) are tax-supported government jobs. That leaves 181,000 private sector jobs. Of these private sector jobs, 177,000, or 98%, are in the domestic service sector.

Here is the breakdown of the major categories:

• 30,000 food servers and bar tenders;
• 28,000 health care and social assistance:
• 12,000 real estate;
• 6,000 credit intermediation;
• 8,000 transit and ground passenger transportation;
• 50,000 retail trade; and
• 8,000 wholesale trade.
(There were 7,000 construction jobs, most of which were filled by Mexicans immigrants.)

Not a single one of these jobs produces a tradable good or service that can be exported or serve as an import substitute to help reduce the massive and growing US trade deficit.(End of excerpt)

Granted, Roberts is only looking at one month out of the 2 year span you are referring to, but still, not a good sign. Unfortunately there's no one out there who has truly tried to make an unbiased assessment of our economic situation.

Honestly man, I wish I could say I'm being Chicken Little in this manner, or the Boy who Cried Wolf. You're right, Rocket Pig, things aren't as bad as I make them out to be, but I don't think I'm that far off. I think mainstream economic analysts hold up a few items to the magnifying glass that can be twisted into showing stability in the interest of maintaining consumer confidence. But if you ask me, these "positive indicators" are nothing more than bandaids over a gaping, pus encrusted wound that is our economy.

I don't know for sure what the future will bring, but I do pray you're right and I'm wrong.

[LeftBrain Artist]

I should mention that I try to make an informed opinion based on reason rather than latching onto a popular political stance put forward by any one group. I try to examine each sides story to find the truth that lies in the middle somewhere. I realize my viewpoint in this matter is overwhelmingly pessimistic.

Am I way off base on this? I'd really like to hear undisputable evidence that contradicts my position. Really.

I mean, if I accept that we're doing all right and don't worry about it, and things tank - I'll be in a really rough spot compared to if I expect things to tank and plan accordingly.

[morea]

this thread reminds me of this dilbert comic: