logo for a saddle company [Archive]

C.E.

01-10-2006, 05:51 PM

Hi gang, long time no talk. Hope everyone has been well!

I have a new client who wants a logo for a new saddle line she's designing and making. (sort of like a new model for a certain brand of cars). The line is going to be called "The Freedom Saddle" and apart from tracing an image of one of her saddles into AI and creating a sort of sillouhete (sp?) I am drawing a blank here. Does anybody have any helpful brainstorm ideas they can throw my way?

Thanks!!
Rams

Thomas51471

01-10-2006, 05:58 PM

Make an American flag into the silloute of a saddle. But be stylistic with it.

Now, that's $60 for the idea :-P

danedawg99

01-10-2006, 05:59 PM

what kind of saddle? Western, english, cutting, arabic, etc?

www.visualthesaurus.com

C.E.

01-10-2006, 06:50 PM

thanks guys, keep em coming!

danedawg, it's a barrel saddle (western). I'm currently working on a sort of idea of a barrel horse kind of turning with some "streams" or movement blurs (hard to explain). About all I can think of for Freedom is actually movement as the word freedom when speaking about saddles is more about allowing the horse more natural movement, which equals to better performance.

Logo-Mechanix

01-10-2006, 06:57 PM

I like the barrel horse idea but maybe to make the saddle the focal point don't make an illustration of a horse just use some line and shadows as the indication of a horse, ya know what I mean , its kind of hard to explain in words.

danedawg99

01-10-2006, 07:08 PM

an abstraction of the clover leaf might be cool. if you ride barrel, you'll get it, and it might make for a neat mark.

C.E.

01-22-2006, 01:31 PM

Well I've been working so far but maybe I'm over complicating this. It just isn't "right" but I've been staring at it for so long I just can't see anything anymore. What do you all think?

Drorain

01-22-2006, 01:42 PM

excellent vector...keep this for a later piece of collateral or a website...now to use it for the logo simplify....Alot...start blocking in more shadow/contrasting shapes. Dont give us the minute details so much, as offer a stylized sillohutte based on this shape...Infact I'd copy and paste this to work off this image, its high energy.

Type doesnt seem to match just yet cause thi image is a little dainty...also see if you can bring out a little more of the 'saddle' shape in the image

This is quite nice tho

C.E.

01-24-2006, 03:38 PM

Thanks Dorian! Right, the type was more of just an idea, how I want something a bit more 'free' than a serif or something, tho I'm open to suggestions. I'm a bit muddled on the blocking in part. Maybe I should print this out and get the darn tracing paper out?

Drorain

01-24-2006, 03:41 PM

good idea!

Logo-Mechanix

01-24-2006, 03:42 PM

Yeah a great vector, definitely don't discard it completely. Like Dro said I would play up the saddle more and add some dark shadow to the horse, but a great start.

rockem

01-24-2006, 03:47 PM

isnt this your job to come up with ideas? no offense

sit down and jot everyting that comes to mind with saddles horses etc.

Drorain

01-24-2006, 04:02 PM

rockem

01-24-2006, 04:06 PM

rockem not everyone does logo design on a regular basis...it is a fine art really, and something we can learn. Word lists is one method, loose word association...

some people work better visually...trying a photocallage or something, others have momentary eureka momemnts while sitting on the hopper.

The point is, give a little slack to her this may not be something she does all the time

I know and like I said no offense meant by it, but that is a designers job, I just wouldnt want to be giving away my own ideas on something. now helping someone out with a crit or something is different, than giving them your own ideas. Researching for logo design is important and kind of a learning experience

Drorain

01-24-2006, 04:11 PM

absolutely...I enjoy doing it, but I need to find some more resources on the process since my corp. id class really was a joke. I made a dreaded crescent swoosh logo...was more a stylized lens and the teacher didnt even deter me from this...

I buried that one once I got out of school and relized my err

C.E.

01-24-2006, 04:29 PM

Thanks Dorian, yeah I do more websites than anything, but I do offer logos and other stuff, just not as experienced in them. Especially in using Illy. I just like to come here to bounce ideas off of other folks in the profession, not to steal them or not do my own work. Sometimes it just helps getting a visual boost. And yeah, I do work better visually, so when I have nothing really to look at it helps to hear some other folks' ideas.

typographics

01-25-2006, 12:36 AM

drorain,

you said "not everyone does logo design on a regular basis...it is a fine art really, and something we can learn."

i have to strongly disagree. firstly, logo design, or any other design for that matter, is not fine art. fine art is fine art. design is something completely different. a fine artist makes pretty things, for themselves, or for others. they produce work in a specific style and are primarily focused on aesthetics. a designer however, is a problem solver. a designer is responsible for communicating a specific body of information, targeted toward a specific market, in order to achieve a specific result. Our job is to challenge and/or change the perception of our target audience. what we like, personally, doesnt matter. we are result oriented, not visually or self-serving oriented.

secondly, not everyone can learn to be a designer. hopefully you would agree. because if you dont, and everyone can do what we do, then we are not very special now are we? some people are born with the ability to do math. some people are inherently able to learn foreign languages. and some people are born with the skills we have. now, we can take what we have and improve them. but you cant take someone, and turn them into a great designer, without them having some before hand abilities.

those are my beliefs. i get kinda rattled when people compare design with art. the two are totally separate identities. i know great designers that cant draw stick figures, and i know great artist that cant design.

matthew~

Drorain

01-25-2006, 01:31 AM

very interesting points matthew, but lets go into the realm of art history. The views your sharing are similar to what the naturalists of france believed, that art was born in someone, you had it or you didn't. No schooling needed.

Then on the other end we had the academics...granted most of these people were copy cats, lacking any real talent, but we did see the leader of the academic school, David go thru three generations of French revolutions.

So we have people saying its born in you, others saying it can be taught. Now lets relate this to design, I myself am a schooled designer, holding a bachelor of fine art in graphic design. Basically I had to take more art history courses than someone would for a bachelor of the arts. We were also taught art theory and drawing and color, all aspects of fine art.

We also need to communicate, but this is what artists have done throughout the last century's. People can learn to be a designer, there is no need to be afraid of this, we are what is called skilled labor. Some people need to work harder at it, others don't. I myself am, as are many designers, a generalist in a specialist field. I like doing print, corp. ID, and collateral, but I admit I'm a dunce on web stuff. So I network with other designers to fill in my short comings, I will go to a specialist web guru or illustrator or even a corporate brander for thier services if its out of my league.

As you can see I'm actually split, I do think we need something born in us to be designers, but sometimes it does take academic schooling to learn it. I will also beg to differ, I do think logo design is an art for those of us that do it...although CE was looking for comments on this picture, not on the logo process itself, essentially thats what I was creating. I figured she went through the process to develop this and found the horse was an appropriate image, I accepted that perhaps this is what the customer has already approved.

I just wanted to comment more on the execution...the art side of it if you will. Matt thank you for the excellent post, its blog worthy cause you argue a fine point...hopefully I've offered something to think about alternatively.

typographics

01-25-2006, 02:16 AM

Drorain,

I think we actually agree. Let me clarify.

First, you can defiantly go to school to enhance your natural abilities. For instance, I suck at math. However, I took numerous math classes in college. I can honestly say that I am better at math now then I was pre-college. However, I still suck at math. I wasn’t born with the ability to comprehend complex math equations. I am better, but still no expert.

Same with design. A freshman can take a design class, and learn the basics in order to be more knowledgeable in the craft. However, he or she may still stink at it. You cant put a paint brush in front of someone and teach them to become a great artist. At the same time, you cant put a computer in front of someone and make them the next Milton Glaser.

As far as the “fine art” comment. I still disagree. she wanted a horse, because she felt that was a good way to communicate the message. Fine. But you don’t render the horse with the mentality that it is art. Again, design is not art. You render that horse with the observation that it is well executed, and serves its purpose for the intended target audience. Now, it may look “artistic”, or you may look at that horse and say “wow, that is really well drawn”, and it might be, but that still doesn’t define it as art. Something can be well rendered and not be art. But to believe that, you have to believe that design and art are two separate identities.

Thanks for your reply drorain.

Matthew~

01-25-2006, 03:21 AM

Cut me a break. Ok "art" and "design" are two different things, big whoop. You aren't born an artist or mathematician, you BECOME those things. People can, indeed, learn anything they set their minds to.

Graphic design ain't rocket science no matter which way you slice it, sorry if that bruises anybody's fragile ego. I am so tired of this debate! lol

typographics

01-25-2006, 04:22 AM

Ec,

Well science would disagree with you. We know that people are better at certain things from birth. We know this because scientists have mapped different parts of the human brain. They can take a test subject and watch their brain work different problems. When you match those subjects with others, you find that some people have a better genetic makeup to process certain information.

Now, does that mean you don’t have control over your destiny. Of course not, no body is saying otherwise. However, most people are guided by their natural talents, and pursue those talents into adulthood. You don’t see everyone running to be a doctor for a reason.

Your right, design isn’t rocket science. If it were, we would get paid a lot more for our efforts. However, you should take pride in what you do. Your comment makes it sound like anyone can do it. Again, if that’s the case, we are not very special, and our profession doesnt hold much weight. I don’t know about you, but I like to think that I am talented, and that I offer a service not everyone can provide. I like to think my time at college wasn’t wasted.

Theres nothing wrong with being proud of what you do, and attempting to define it accurately to others.

Matthew~

01-25-2006, 04:34 AM

aaah yes, "nature versus nurture" debate. Almost as famous as "art versus design", neither of which I want to waste my time on (no offense). It's all been said.

I do take pride in what I do, but I don't begin to think I am special for it. Lots of special people on this earth, I play but a small part.

Jeff Fisher LogoMotives

01-25-2006, 04:40 AM

absolutely...I made a dreaded crescent swoosh logo...

Thanks for the laugh Drorain - I almost spit my drink all over my laptop!

- J.

AlexNJ210

01-25-2006, 05:02 AM

hey for drorain and matt, i took this class last semester called "what is art?" Very interesting class for me. Its really an odd feeling that the world of art or "artistic" things is so broad, and at the same time so narrow. Anyway the class explores a true to life definition of art that makes it a singular entity and addresses the question of what makes something art? This includes the whole art design debate. My text is called "The Nature of Art" by: Thomas E Wartenberg. Good book. Not long, thought you both might be interested.

AlexNJ210

01-25-2006, 05:08 AM

EC
by the end of that class i was tired myself of trying to define everything, but it was interesting none the less. I just think about design as something im good at and something id like to do for a career. Sometimes i think about the volume of other designers there are in the world, the usa, and even in my own state, and i feel like creating completely new designs is almost impossible nowadays. So for me, design is my way of expressing my enginuity, creativity, and knowledge in the hopes that i am making things that are worthwhile for society or whoever and beneficial to me.

AlexNJ210

01-25-2006, 05:19 AM

Uhh...for CE,

it seems to have gotten quite off topic here so i am going to offer my help too. Maybe if you had a picture of one of the saddles or the store or something i might be able to help you more. I like what you have so far. Maybe, if you could incorporate the barrell into the design. But making it more whistful and less of a graphic of a horse and rider. What you have is basic but i like the blurs idea. Something incorporating that turn around a barrell like you said earlier sounds like a good idea....also incorporating the text into this movment. Youre off to a good start so good luck.

typographics

01-25-2006, 05:24 AM

alex,

thanks for the book suggestion. i will look for it next time im at the book store. i didnt mean to start the "design vs art" debate. i was simply making the point that most of us have written talents encoded in our dna, and that its okay to persue them. and the idea that people "can do anything they put their mind to", is a nice thought, but often isnt the case.

matthew~

AlexNJ210

01-25-2006, 05:27 AM

no need for explanations, its all been laid out there.:rolleyes:

Navian

01-25-2006, 02:16 PM

i didnt mean to start the "design vs art" debate.

What is Graphic Design? The basics of Graphic Design is the "ART" of creating a piece or pieces that are aestheticly pleasing and are used properly to communicate a message to the viewing audiences.

With the proper tools behind us: Color theory, art history, design history, basic design, drawing and sketching techniques, typography, design programs, etc.. I believe that there shouldn't BE a debate on Design vs art. Art is IN design, and design is IN art. No matter if it is Graphics, 3D Animation, Finer Art (painting, etc.), Product Design, Architecture, Graffitti, ect...

Did you know that usually during an invasion war (has happened in the wars of the past), the artists are usualy the first to go. Why? because we can speak louder than any word, or words that can be composed to halt such a situation. Usualy an artist is given the choice, to join the invasion or die.

I was simply making the point that most of us have written talents encoded in our dna, and that its okay to persue them

I believe that each person has there own talents they are born with. People with a natural gift and ability to do certain things easier and better than anyone else. BUT that doesnt mean that skills/talents cannot be learned.

the idea that people "can do anything they put their mind to", is a nice thought, but often isnt the case.

The reason it isnt the case is because most people dont put there mind anywhere else except for one or two places that are inapproperiate. BUT I do believe you can achieve anything you put your mind to it, usually it helps to dwell in a positive attitude/environment while trying to achieve such a goal.

---

CE,

Keep up the good work, I believe you have something going with that current design. I agree some tweakage and I think you almost have it.

Drorain

01-25-2006, 02:26 PM

Thanks for the laugh Drorain - I almost spit my drink all over my laptop!

- J.

Oh jeff it was terribe...I'll post it when I'm home tonight...I even have design reasoning for it which is worse if you ask me lol

rockem

01-25-2006, 03:01 PM

Not to come in and hijack but, I gotta disagree that anyone could be taught to be a designer, I could pick out hundreds of websites that I see that people call themselves designers, art directors, photogrphers, etc. and clearly they should not be

Navian

01-25-2006, 03:11 PM

Anyone can be taught, its just there ability to use what was taught, properly.

C.E.

01-25-2006, 03:26 PM

Anyone can be taught, its just there ability to use what was taught, properly.

Yeah, my dad tried to teach me the basics of working on cars when I was a kid -- thaaat didn't work so much.

As far as the logo goes... I've been working on it. It's not so much the idea, because once I had a good idea in my head, getting it down in Illy is the hard part for me. I'm not very good at this stuff, but like someone said before - its good for experience. Here's what I have so far. And keep in mind it's still in serious development. Just want to know if I'm on the right track....

Jeff Fisher LogoMotives

01-25-2006, 03:27 PM

Anyone can be taught, its just there ability to use what was taught, properly.

You also need to take into consideration the need for their instructors to know what they are talking about when teaching someone.

- J.

morea

01-25-2006, 03:27 PM

^ presactly!

C.E., I've missed most of this thread, but you will want to bear in mind how the logo will look if shrunk down to the size of a dime for business cards or even imprinted on something small like a pen.

Navian

01-25-2006, 03:38 PM

You also need to take into consideration the need for their instructors to know what they are talking about when teaching someone.

- J.

I agree, I wasnt counting that part out. Usualy when being taught something by an instructor, the ability to use it properly usualy goes hand in hand with the instructions. If you have a crappy teacher/instructor, you are not going to be "taught" the skill to be used in the proper way. Thus would be the results of poor designs, for the graphic design.

In my case I have to deal with crapy CAD files, because they where not done properly. IF the people who created it used and followed the CAD standards that everyone who does drafting should know, it would be much much easier to processes the drawings to be used for what we do with them. CAD standards are like using a butter knife to make a PB&J Sandwich, if you used a toothpick it would be much harder and take two/three times as long to make it.

*Edit*

CE, have you tried to do just an simple outline, and no fill-ins (yet) on your logo? just curious.

C.E.

01-25-2006, 04:18 PM

CE, have you tried to do just an simple outline, and no fill-ins (yet) on your logo? just curious.

Yeah and I didn't like it at all. ---

Navian

01-25-2006, 04:40 PM

hum.. I was thinking of more of a simple stroke outline than a filled silhouette.

LeftBrain Artist

01-25-2006, 05:54 PM

Hmmmm. I see. Let me clarify my position. There are two types of people. Stupid people, and stupid people who think they are smart - I happen to be the latter. That said, design and fine art are as different as acupuncture and chiropractory (is that a word?). Does that mean they're actually very similar? I don't know, but then again maybe I do and I'm just trying to fool you.

Sorry, I'm being silly again. Maybe for the logo the horse could be wearing black and white striped pajamas and a cap, or a blaze orange jump suit, and have a broken chain dangling from his leg or fetlock or whatever you call it. Or perhaps a dollar and a nickel could be featured in the logo somewhere - signifying the cost of freedom.

Nevermind.

C.E.

01-25-2006, 07:58 PM

Okay, so I worked on a version w/out the cowgirl, dont' know how that works for the whole concept or not, but here it is.

AlexNJ210

01-25-2006, 11:52 PM

have you considered a circular design CE??? Just wondering. i think you are getting caught up with where to place the type. Maybe using the type as a circular frame for a signifying logo might be a better approach for you. You have great illustration skills for this so i dont doubt you could mold something into that. It could also prove to be a better logo to stamp on the saddles themselves....if thats an application for the logo. I guess im saying to make a round seal type logo.

Logo-Mechanix

01-26-2006, 12:01 AM

The circular one would work good with a straight on shot of the horse, maybe even just the head and neck with a flowing mane.

typographics

01-26-2006, 12:02 AM

Ce,

If you are serious about this logo, then you probably need to step back and think about it some more. People are giving you feedback and suggestions, but none of them know enough about the product to do so. Again, this is design, not art. If you want a critique on your illustrative skills drawing horses. Fine. We will gladly give you our opinion. But if you want valuable design advice, you need to give us more information about the product.

That said, you should probably be focusing on the product, not the horse. The horse doesn’t even have a saddle on it. This is a saddle company correct? And this is a new line of saddles right? So shouldn’t you be focusing on the saddles, and what makes these saddles unique in the marketplace, especially in relation to the competition? Are they made with better materials, designed for better comfort, easier to assemble on the horse, etc… remember, a logo is an identity. It identifies the product (or person, or group, or whatever). If your client sold horses, id say explore horse concepts. But your client sells saddles, so do some more research and find out as much about this product as possible. Once you know as much as possible, ideas will come easier.

Matthew~

AlexNJ210

01-26-2006, 12:15 AM

typo,

Thats true about product identity, but the target audience is equally as important, and the aesthetics popular among people is important to consider. I would imagine that a horse and rider is a symbol synonymous with a saddle and riding. Its important to integrate the key emotional factors associated with the products strong points, e.g. better movement, comfort, reliability, etc. but that does not mean that actual graphical representations need to be made. Much of a brand identity is about appealing to a customer's "need" to see something in a product that appeals to them. Capturing these feelings in a logo is difficult, but by using the ephemera of the sport and the culture it is possible to find symbols for these things. Maybe do some research into the world of barrel riding and saddle makers and look for inspiration there.

typographics

01-26-2006, 12:36 AM

Alex,

You are 100 percent correct. The target audience is important. In fact, its probably the most important. You are also correct that a horse and rider tie into saddles and riding. But so do a lot of things. Barns, shoe horns, feed bags, cowboy hats, barrel racing, horse trailers, manure, etc…

“Its important to integrate the key emotional factors associated with the products strong points, e.g. better movement, comfort, reliability, etc. but that does not mean that actual graphical representations need to be made.”

I don’t understand that. If you feel its important to integrate those factors, then how else can you communicate them other than graphically? Either its important and should be addressed, or its not and should be left out. You cant have it both ways.

Im just saying that none of us have enough information to help ce. Just because it’s a saddle company, doesn’t automatically mean a graphic of a horse is appropriate. More thought needs to be put into this mark. If not, then it will only serve as a piece of art.

Alex, you made some good suggestions for ce. I think we both agree more research needs to be done before any graphics are further produced.

Matthew~

AlexNJ210

01-26-2006, 04:28 AM

" “Its important to integrate the key emotional factors associated with the products strong points, e.g. better movement, comfort, reliability, etc. but that does not mean that actual graphical representations need to be made.”

I don’t understand that. If you feel its important to integrate those factors, then how else can you communicate them other than graphically? Either its important and should be addressed, or its not and should be left out. You cant have it both ways."

Well by that statement there, i was actually agreeing with you matt.:rolleyes: I was simply saying that if it is a saddle company and you want to express ideas like comfortable riding and freedom, dont go and draw a logo of a saddle with a big pillow and wings.:rolleyes: Thats all, other than that we basically agree.:) Too much designer lingo going on here hahaha.

C.E.

01-26-2006, 01:56 PM

Hmm... well, just to further this discussion, I'd like to add that as a barrel racer myself and an experienced horseperson, I *am* the target audience. Therefore, I know the ideas and the images that come to mind when thinking of this saddle. I want the image to project freedom of movement, so to me, that would be either a horse and rider in some kind of action pose, or a horse by itself somehow indicating fast movement. This particular saddle series has a new design that allows the horse better ability to move his shoulders when being ridden, which translates into better performance. I don't necessarily want the actual saddle in the logo itself, because like Alex said, it would be hard to indicate movement on just a saddle unless I added wings or tires or something, and that just doesn't mesh with the target audience. I really don't need to research the product or the world of barrel racing any more, as that's what my life has been for the past 15+ years, so I know my area. I just need to figure out how to communicate it to my fellow barrel racers in a logo.

typographics

01-26-2006, 03:23 PM

ce,

the first thing i learned, in relation to design, is that there are no rules. there is nothing holding you back or keeping you from exploring all options. sure, you dont have to show the saddle in the logo. but it seems pretty logical that you would. at the least, you should explore the idea. its almost mind boggling that you would want to create an identity for a product, and not identify the actual product. maybe im crazy.

also, you dont have to put wings on the saddle to show movement. i dont even know where that idea came from. there are a lot of ways to subtley suggest better movement, agility, and performance that doesnt involve wings or graphics of tires. (tires?) and who says it has to communicate those ideas anyway? perhaps you simply want to communicate "saddle", and let the other marketing do the rest. a logo is not an ad. a lot of people forget that.

but here is the bottom line: its your decision and your client. i offered some suggestions, which you can think about or discard. if all you want is a critique on horse illustrations, i will be glad to offer my opinion on those as well.

matthew~

01-26-2006, 05:19 PM

its almost mind boggling that you would want to create an identity for a product, and not identify the actual product. maybe im crazy.

I think where he put "FREEDOM SADDLE" in huge letters, that pretty much identified the product.

I've never been on a horse or near a saddle in my life, so I'm far from his target audience. But what I interpreted from his last version is "freedom" -- the horse is not constricted in any way and is running wild and free. I don't need to see a saddle to understand that it's a company that sells saddles. They covered that when they chose a really descriptive name for their company I'd say.

morea

01-26-2006, 05:23 PM

not sure about that either... I mean, I could obviously be wrong, but if I remember right, C.E. said that the logo would be stamped onto the saddles...

now, how odd would it look to stamp an image of a saddle onto a saddle?

morea

01-26-2006, 05:29 PM

Ramsey, I like the idea dane posted on the first page about using a stylized cloverleaf...

you might also want to play around with the visual thesaurus (www.visualthesaurus.com) for brainstorming purposes.

AlexNJ210

01-26-2006, 05:35 PM

cool

balou

01-26-2006, 05:36 PM

Also keep in mind if it's a new product, it will go through redesigns. If a picture of the saddle isn't stylized or abstract, the design can change and will make the whole logo obsolete.

I think it's too hard to explain in a picture everything you need to convey about the new saddle. How about FREEDOM SADDLE in text only, maybe with a star inside the O on Freedom to indicated that it's a Western saddle and emphasizing the word FREEDOM. A well written, effective tagline will do the work in telling people about what's new and different about this saddle. Something to catch their attention.

I keep aspirin nearby when I do logos. They hurt my brain! ;)

Kool

01-26-2006, 05:48 PM

typographics

01-26-2006, 11:37 PM

Ec,

Wow. if that is the way you really feel, then all a designer needs to do is spell out the name of a product in huge letters and call it a day. Is that what your saying? If that’s all it takes, then why use any image at all? Or, how about an image of a spaceship? That communicates freedom also. Or maybe just a tagline under the company name that says “this is a brand of saddles that is designed for better movement of a horses shoulders”.

Im glad its not that easy, or we would all be out of a job. So, what is the purpose of a logo? If simply typing out the name of the company isn’t good enough, then what is? A logo must be an identifier, allow for quicker recognition, and help break the language barrier. From what she has shown us so far, I don’t believe she has met any of those criteria.

Because of that, I have been suggesting other avenues of approach, as have others.

Morea,

Why would a logo incorporating a saddle look odd stamped into a saddle? I don’t follow. If a pizza parlor has a logo incorporating a pizza, does it look odd printed on the pizza box? The only way it would look odd, is if it were poorly conceptualized and/or rendered.

Now, obviously some of you disagree. And that’s okay. That’s what these forums are all about, different ideas and the discussion of those ideas.

Matthew~

01-26-2006, 11:47 PM

typographics

01-27-2006, 12:53 AM

ec,

hmm...looks like i may have stepped on your toes a little. im sorry if i did.

lots of successful logos use nothing but type?! really? perhaps, but i cant think of any. just type, without any alteration? i guess it depends on your definition of success. i can think of logos that are just a selected typeface, like Landor for instance. one of the most successful design studios in the world. ive visited their ny office. they are very impressive. but does their success come from their logo, or the other way around? im not sure how a type only logo, with no alteration of anykind, can be considered a success. (unless its a typeface specifically designed for the client, and not one that was picked out of a regular font list.)

i dont think anyone in this post is clueless, and im not sure where that idea came from. im simply offering ideas, thoughts, and suggestions. just as you are. no harm, no foul.

matthew~

AlexNJ210

01-27-2006, 01:59 AM

i think typo and rockem could be friends.:p

typographics

01-27-2006, 02:00 AM

*putting out his hand for friendship :)

Ned

01-27-2006, 03:52 AM

CE: Your artwork is great, but it's not quite working for a logo... Your latest attachment with the horse only (no cowgirl) seems to work best.

Have you considered a rearing stallion? It will fit into a more confined shape easier (ie. beside the type or in a circle as suggested), and will spell out "freedom" easily. Or how about a horse's head with flared nostrils? I don't think the dainty look and the word "freedom" quite go together, so how about roughing it up a bit? Make that horse look like he's taking his freedom by force, and nobody's getting in his way!

(Of course, what do I know... I once did a logo for a community league soccer team, incorporating their namesake - a lion, with a soccer ball in his mouth. They thought the lion was "too scary". Hey, I thought that's what sports teams wanted! ;) )

Jimeda Fork

01-27-2006, 02:05 PM

The people I work with would refer to this thread as:

"Picking the fly shit out of pepper."

Always thought it was a stupid saying, but it applies here.

CE - Is there a trademark or something about the saddle that sets it apart from the others on the saddle that would help identify it? Maybe emphasize that at a logo treatment?

C.E.

01-27-2006, 05:21 PM

stylized cloverleaf
A good idea, but the one reason I want to stay away from that is the simple fact of expansion -- if the client decides later that she wants her saddles to be more than just barrel saddles, then I've alienated everyone but the barrel racers.

I keep aspirin nearby when I do logos. They hurt my brain!
TELL me about it!!! This is hard work.

That thing gives me a headache.
Me too!!!

A logo must be an identifier, allow for quicker recognition, and help break the language barrier. From what she has shown us so far, I don’t believe she has met any of those criteria.
I totally agree. I really need to refine this idea/image somehow. However, I don't necessarily think it has to have a saddle in it. I talked to some other fellow barrel racers, and the consensus for an image was a 'wild horse' or a 'running horse' or some indication of that; to symbolize the freedom. I like the idea of flared nostrils or a rearing horse.

Make that horse look like he's taking his freedom by force, and nobody's getting in his way!
Now THIS is exactly the thought I need to work on!!!

okay, back to the drawing board.... I'll post here in a while with my next draft. Thanks everybody, this has been a very helpful discussion!!!

C.E.

01-28-2006, 12:57 AM

Well I've been working all day. Went back to the drawing board and tried changing the original image I was working with (to do my illustration), to see if maybe I could come up with a better representation.... I found a couple of different images I liked, and came up with 2 different directions. What do you all think? The second one ended up forming itself into an actual letter, but then I think I started to overthink it, so not sure if it works or not.

C.E.

01-28-2006, 12:59 AM

and the second

AlexNJ210

01-28-2006, 01:56 AM

i like that idea CE, that seems much better this time around, to make the "F" more clear i would suggest making the horses leg extended(straight) like its reaching forward, and extend that top mark(horses back) longer and shorten the the lower(belly) mark and make it thinner and drop it down a little closer to the "r". Perhaps move the F horse to the left more(increase the kerning) away from the other letters. I really like this idea. I think your hard work has paid off now. The font chosen is much better than before. One last little thing would be to take off that serif on the middle decender of the "m" and make it straight like the "r", also the serif on the right decender of the "m" should look just like the serif on the "d". Inconsistency there. After that i think you have really got something great. Very Nice work!!!!

AlexNJ210

01-28-2006, 01:58 AM

Another thing i just noticed was the ear of the "horse F", that needs some editing as far as line work is concerned. I would make it more spiky,(lack of a better word). Also take out the mark at the base of the ear that closes it off. No need for that mark given the styling of the rest of the graphic.

C.E.

01-28-2006, 03:29 PM

Okay I did some more work and played around with the font, came up with 2 more font choices. Here's the first.

C.E.

01-28-2006, 03:30 PM

the second

C.E.

01-28-2006, 03:32 PM

and the third - which is the same font as the previous entry (from yesterday) with the changes Alex suggested (I hope).

Neuro

01-28-2006, 03:52 PM

Definitely an improvement. I like the heavier text with the horse. It seems to flow better. The only thing I do notice is that your letters aren't connected. Are they supposed to be?

typographics

01-28-2006, 09:34 PM

ce,

neuro is correct, the letters need to be connected if your going to use a script typeface. the entire point of a script typeface is to simulate handwriting. second, i agree that these concepts are a huge improvement over the first ones. the illustration of the horse is a lot better and doesn’t look as “clip-arty” as the ones previous. I am very happy to see you trying to merge the illustration with the typeface. The most effective logos are done this way. In fact, my “thesis” in college was written on this very notion.

All that said, the horse doesn’t look anything like the letter “F”. it looks like a horse illustration next to the word “reedom”. if you only showed the illustration, and asked people what they saw, I doubt many would say the letter “F”. now, obviously you would never see the horse illustration alone. It would always be associated with the type. My point though, is that it relies totally on the type for clarification. The illustration and the type look so different next to each other, that they fight for attention, instead of working together to form a unique and cohesive mark.

matthew~

Neuro

01-28-2006, 10:18 PM

Yes I think the leg and the head/mane part are just too far apart to make the association to the letter F. I forgot to metion that before. Thanks for pointing that out for Typographics. I think you are moving in the right direction but it still needs a little tweeking.

AlexNJ210

01-28-2006, 11:20 PM

Hi CE,

I agree with the aforementioned by Neuro and Typo, one thing you may have missed in my suggestions was the "belly" mark of the F. I know you used the same mark for the back and moved it down, but because this middle mark is extending further than the mark for the "back" of the horse or the top most extender(forgot the terminology) from the stem, it confuses the eye from understanding it as what it is supposed to be, an "F". I think if you shorten(also make it less heavy(thinner) ) that middle mark and move it down, you will be much more successful in your metaphorical graphic of an "F". Also, match the slant of the horse's leg to the slant of the typeface(the original script one). It seems more straight up and down than it should be.

AlexNJ210

01-28-2006, 11:51 PM

Here is what i meant.

Zenobian Grey

01-29-2006, 07:44 AM

I like the implication of the logo a lot. I think it's a great transition from graphic to typeface. But, compositional wise, I'm having some qualms here. (No, I don't know Rockem, who's most likely huddled in a dark corner via fetal position because everyone questions their association with him, as I just did, Oh I'm rotten SOB)

The lines in the horse are leading the eye (or my eye at least) away from the typeface. This is creating a split second confusion. For all intensive purposes, you want the lines of the horse to lead into the text instead of off the "canvas". (oh my tight ass graphic design is not real art, fine arts professor would be so proud right now)

Would it be possible or reasonable to request you rework the graphic to lead the opposite way that it is now? I think once you do that, you could have yourself a very reputable logo that would do well in any designers portfolio.

C.E.

01-29-2006, 12:57 PM

Argh this is so frustrating!!! :)

Alex, that second 'mark' I didn't intentionally mean to be the belly mark. I see where you're going with it but it doesn't work for me. It was supposed to be just more 'mane' flowing, but obviously it didn't work that way. Hmm.

What if..... I just put the Horse-F on the regular F body and got rid of that leg?

And to all who say the text looks funky, kerning and/or connections - that's what you get for using a free font. :S

C.E.

01-29-2006, 01:18 PM

rework the graphic to lead the opposite way
Not quite sure what you mean Zenobian -- do you just want me to flip the horse to be running from left to right, instead of right to left as it is now? Not sure how that would tie into the F...

Zenobian Grey

01-29-2006, 06:04 PM

Not quite sure what you mean Zenobian -- do you just want me to flip the horse to be running from left to right, instead of right to left as it is now? Not sure how that would tie into the F...

Exactly!

I suppose you'll have to rework the line if the horse to make it work. Possibly the head making the F shape rather then the maine.

It's just a suggestion, compositionally, you may have some issues. Just my opinion.