that guy the terrorists held..

[Debz]

was beheaded.. /emoticons/shakehead.gif i wish we'd kill all the terrorists already.. /emoticons/violent.gif

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[sscheer]

Does anyone think that with our troops fighting over in Iraq that the problem is getting better or much much worse?

[alekdesign]

i believe that having soldiers there are making things worse. The propaganda from US gov about how they are making the streets of Bagdad safer is just lies. The assasinations and bombs wont stop until the foreign soldiers withdraw..

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[Drorain]

I know people in the military we are only hearing the bad news only from our media. We have had more sucess that we do not hear about. We have also helped make things better in Iraq, It will be up to them as a people to purge their country from the amount of terrorists there. We can do very little without making someone angry. On the plus side I read an article about arab and muslim response to terrorist activities is becoming more angry, the last beheading as made many muslims PISSED. We need to do what we are doing to keep ourselves safe, but for things to really change these other peopleneed to purge their ranks from the extremists.

- Everyday, all the time, without fail!

[alekdesign]

ill grant u what u said, but the buttom line is still that without us troops they wouldnt need terrorists..

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[Magnus]

The problem is you're fighting an enemy that doesn't have the same ideals as we in the west does. Hence the suicide bombinbs and beheadings. The only way to deal with such an enemy is to wipe them out. All of them. Completely destroy their ability to make war.

OR

The US and all western countries totally withdraw from the middle east. Cut off all financial and humanitarian support. If they want to be independant, let them, and let them rot. Then prepare the armed forces to deport thousands of middle easterners from the US when they decide to protest and riot that they're countrymen are being left to die. You'll never make them happy, so may as well subdue them.

"The function of a warrior is to eliminate an exterior enemy presence. A warrior is an antitoxin, a protector. The warrior does combat where and when necessary and not otherwise. "


- Ambrose Hollingworth Redmoon

[Debz]

alekdesign said...
ill grant u what u said, but the buttom line is still that without us troops they wouldnt need terrorists..

the terrorists were around the whole time.. even before 911 and before we went into iraq..

they were the ones who attacked us, where we live.. killing so many innocent people.. I dont think the terrorists would stop if we pulled out of anywhere.. We need to track them down and lock em up and throw away the key..

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[Debz]

the terrorists were around the whole time.. even before 911 and before we went into iraq..

they were the ones who attacked us where we live.. killing so many innocent people.. I dont think the terrorists would stop if we pulled out of anywhere.. We need to track them down and lock em up and throw away the key..

Mangus: i agree but, they are gonna say we need them for oil... yah.. right.

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[Ryan8720]

Don't bother locking them up, shoot them in the head.

http://edgewebdesign.org/ryan2.gif (http://www.edgewebdesign.org)

Quick! There is time to waste, hurry up and wait!

[DivineDesign]

I think having our troops over there is making it worse. Things only seems to be getting worse. Very rarely do I hear anythign posotive about it. I think more Americans are being killed in teh result of in that Iraqis, etc. Granted, what Drorain said coudl be true, we proabbly dont' hear the good things.....but I also agree with Mag, cut them off completely, see what happens....bring all of our troops home. Please.

http://www.stu.aii.edu/~rfe031/personal/banner.gif
I wanna be like Case when I grow up! *I shop...therefore I am*

[Magnus]

Apparently Canada has just as large of an oil resource as the middle east.

However, if the Car Industry stopped nicke and diming us, they'd release they're hydrogen or electric cars, then we wouldn't need anything at all from that $hit hole.

"The function of a warrior is to eliminate an exterior enemy presence. A warrior is an antitoxin, a protector. The warrior does combat where and when necessary and not otherwise. "


- Ambrose Hollingworth Redmoon

[Debz]

yah the hybrid cars are good but so exnsive to replace the battery.. if more ppl would buy them then prices would go down..

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[Debz]

i dont think we should pull out.. but IF we would.. shut them off of the rest of the world like magus said..

i cant vote for kerry and im voting bush.

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[alekdesign]

gosh. i currently have a very blank face. is this really what you think and mean? cause if this is how regular americans thinks, its no wonder the US Gov is able to act as they see fit. Of all the crazy stuff u guys said, let me point out 3 things:

1. One sides terrorist is the other's freedom fighter
2. Terrorist is not a term that can be used as a generalization and thus group EVERY terrorist in the world. The iraqies attacking american troops in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
3. Just because some eastern europeans act like a dope and go suicide bomb on you, doesnt mean that they are all such and thus not deserving of your help.

sigh.

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[uncle carbunkle]

well said.

greetings, earthlings. take me to your dealer.

[Debz]

The head of the al-Qaida cell that killed Paul M. Johnson Jr. justified targeting the American engineer in a message written before he himself was killed in a gunbattle with Saudi security forces.


In an article posted Sunday on a Web site used by Islamic radicals, Abdulaziz al-Moqrin called Johnson 'an infidel, a warrior of the military.'



--------

alek: this is what i am refering too.. the iraq situation and al-Qaida situation are 2 different things.. the thread did go back and forth on the subject..

But how I feel is that al-Qaida.. the people who caused 9/11 and all did the beheading to a man who was just a civialian to get some of their people back.. Although, I did see Saddam and Iraq as a threat in the future, the thing that caused me to start this thread is what al-Qaida did to this man.

Before 9/11 we lived such sheltered lives.. We never thought anyone would cause an attack on us.. (We should have learnt in 1941 when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.) Afterwards.. all you hear is about terroism and this and that.. and people forget why certain things are happening.

I dont clearly remember all about Iraq, but yah i always thought they were baddies.. I was in grade school during the Desert Storm War and we hear how bad Saddam was.. So we went in there.. Im glad Saddam is gone and hope that we can do what we can to make that place better.

But.. we also should be looking for more terrorists who are plotting against America and any other country in the world.. I dont think ANYONE No matter where you are from should have to experiance any types of violence.. Of course it happens.. BUT I think if we give up on the War on Terror and dont show these cowards that the world wont stand for it.. maybe, JUST MAYBE the world could become a better place.. BUT i think people should remember and remain angry so better precautions can be made.. Yeah this is a lot of.. YEAH RIGHT stuff.. itll never happen.. but we can dream right?

i am so sick of hearing about threats on this and that. I really dunno how other people in countries that have this happen all the time can deal with it.. its no way to live.

im hoping if bin laden is caught maybe things could change a bit.. just maybe.. who knows..

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[alekdesign]

I hear you Debz, but i dont get the sense that you see the whole picture.

Example one: 9/11 happens. They find out Bin Laden is behind it. They cant find him. THEN as a politcal thing they decided that this is a good time to take Iraq, wich will do two things, make ppl (their voters) forget about the fact that they cant find Bin Laden and they get oil. Ask your self this. Before the US Gov started the Iraq thing, what did ppl talk about? Bin Laden. What did they talk about after (and still do)? Iraq and Saddam. See? It worked.

Example two: The 'actual' terrorists behind Bin Laden was doing something offensive, and against civilians. The current Iraq terrorists are ppl that believe they are defending their nation, just like you would if a hostile country invaded USA. (Please note that I am NOT condoning their actions).

Example three: Every time USA has invaded an other country 'to help' it has ended badly. Many civilians have been killed, by US forces. Have they been motivated by a selfless need to help? I am not convinced.

Example four: In a war bad things happen. Atrocoties are commited by both sides. After the pictures of US forces sadomizing Iraqi prisoners, again to shift focus away from them selves, the other side's atrocities appear on the news. Dont believe it will stop before we forget what 'our' side has done.

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[Debz]

i completely understand what you are saying.. No matter what.. it is a tough situation..

i agree that more ppl have been talking about iraq and saddam more since they moved into iraq.. although, i am one of the few that still say bin laden bin laden. To me i dont understand many ppl's thinking on it all.. But i will say one thing.. I do feel safer since Saddam was taken out but i dont feel as safe since basically america had it's eyes opened on 9/11..

its a lose lose situation.

about the iraqi terrorists, i agree, like i said to my dad the one time we were talking.. Why dont, the terrorists, see how free we are over here, when they are in america, and go screw it.. lets not blow this place away.. I think we have a lot of rights here.. dispite all the laws, but most people are living horrible lives.. anybody can make something of themselves here if they try..

about the US helping other countries i dont know much about.. so i cant say much on that matter hehe.. i just really got into all this stuff and all of my opinions are purly based upon how i feel as a citizen.

and yes it sucks bad things happen.. :/

basically i hate the world i live in.. i dont see better times comin anytime soon..

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[alekdesign]

'Life sucks and then you die' That was my motto for a long time, few months back when i decided to go to GD school and found my calling, I became more optimistic, but then I am told im not getting loan so now i dont know what to do. Back to 'The world is a vampire - tadadada.'

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[Kool]

I've been biting my tongue for 2 days over this post. I finally decided pancake it! I'm gonna respond.

alekdesign said...
I hear you Debz, but i dont get the sense that you see the whole picture.

Example one: 9/11 happens. They find out Bin Laden is behind it. They cant find him. THEN as a politcal thing they decided that this is a good time to take Iraq, wich will do two things, make ppl (their voters) forget about the fact that they cant find Bin Laden and they get oil. Ask your self this. Before the US Gov started the Iraq thing, what did ppl talk about? Bin Laden. What did they talk about after (and still do)? Iraq and Saddam. See? It worked.

I'm really impressed that someone from Norway where the biggest terrorist threat is what? Salmon poaching. Has all our motives all figured out.

alekdesign said...
Example two: The 'actual' terrorists behind Bin Laden was doing something offensive, and against civilians. The current Iraq terrorists are ppl that believe they are defending their nation, just like you would if a hostile country invaded USA. (Please note that I am NOT condoning their actions).

Yes these 'freedom fighters' as you call them are some real tough boys. Hell a dozen of them with AK47s can take on an un-armed South Korean guy and win every time. Then they tie him up, let him beg for his life and then chop his head off. Since you seem to admire these guys so much why don't you get a message to them to meet a few of my marine buddies out there in the dessert. Let's see how they do against somebody who can fight back.

alekdesign said...
Example three: Every time USA has invaded an other country 'to help' it has ended badly. Many civilians have been killed, by US forces. Have they been motivated by a selfless need to help? I am not convinced.

I seem to recall a little invasion that we and a few of our real friends pulled off 60 years ago this month. That one didn't turn out too bad. Seems like Norway was one of the countries we liberated. But don't worry. The next time some maniac takes over most of your continent we'll just mind our own business.

I don't agree with hardly anything about our so called war on terror. I think we have screwed up quite a bit. But I served in my military as did my brother. My dad fought in the second world war. I have earned the rite to criticize my country. After your country gets a couple of thousand people killed in a single day by these scumbags I'll listen to your opinion on terrorism.

http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/KoolsSig.gif

'I used to be with it. But then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me.' Abraham Simpson

[Drorain]

kool I just want to say Thank you for serving in our military, I dont think vet's hear that enough, I'm still wearing my buddy poppy at work, and memorial day is weeks past. Simply.....


Thank you

- Everyday, all the time, without fail!

[D-Frag]

You know what. When I was in Hawaii, I was just amazed at the fact that I was standing on the very beaches were many of our soldiers died, actually thousands died on The Big Island, they had a refugee camp up in the hills were they took the sick. Anyways, I just remember standing on the beach, and almost reflecting to what it must have been like 60yrs ago. My grandfather was in that war. And after watching 'Band of Brothers' im proud to say im an american. The USA alek, has changed quite a bit in the last 60yrs, but the majority of us still believe and stand behind our country. When you start bad mouthing our country from a place were you would probably have not existed if the war had continued, it starts to chap some peoples hides.




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[Ryan8720]

I second that.

http://edgewebdesign.org/ryan2.gif (http://www.edgewebdesign.org)

Quick! There is time to waste, hurry up and wait!

[alekdesign]

woa. Didnt expect t ht coming. Perhaps I should have. 1. I thought I made it clear I did not condone (or admire) these guys in any way. 2. I am not critisizing your country, you or your soldiers, just your government. 3. I have the right to an opponion on world politics because this is my world also. 4. Norway has soldiers in Iraq. 5. Read my example four again.
I got more on my mind in reply to yours, but I guess im outnumbered and you dont really wanna hear it.

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[Debz]

i wanna cry when i see the 3 guys picz on TV that were just killed by these guys :(

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[Magnus]

Alek, I think you have to understand that there is nothing honourable about how the Iraqi 'freedom fighters' (I will use the term terrorist dog from here on in) are defending their country. Now they've begun targeting Unniversity Deans as well as their families. Civilians, both Iraqi and foreign are now becomming prime targets for kidnapping as well as assasination. Soldiers deserve Soldiers. These terrorist dogs deserve an 80 megaton nuke. They are undeserving of any mercy or compassion. They are hindering the recovery of their own country.

So no, this isn't the same as 'Vive le resistance' by Charlemagne, it's not the same as the Romanian resistance in the second world war, hell, I have more respect for the Irish terrorists/combatants in that on-going (though quiet as of late) problem. As such these people don't deserve to be defended morally. When they start fighting with honour, then we'll talk.

"The function of a warrior is to eliminate an exterior enemy presence. A warrior is an antitoxin, a protector. The warrior does combat where and when necessary and not otherwise. "


- Ambrose Hollingworth Redmoon

[defjoe]

Kool.. .you are the man. I take what you say over anyone else in this forum when it comes to this stuff cause you lived it.

These terrorist are cowards..plain and simple. they take people not even in the war and they behead them. then they scatter like rats. Real tough.

Personally i like Magnus's idea... the whole world has to get together and shut these people off...entirely. No aid, no nothing! build a big wall aroundf the middle east and say 'Good luck, you don't like us then you don't have to deal with us.'

We'll see how fast they come begging for mercy.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'

[uncle carbunkle]

i didn't want to post here, either. this isn't a 'new' problem....i worry that people in the west see this as 'all of a sudden, these terrorists started picking on us', when it's been so easy to remain ignorant about what's been going on over there. there has been a huge hatred AND a comfortable bed-fellowship between our twisted governments for too long, and it's not going to be easy to sort out. i'm disillusioned and saddened by actions on the part of almost every country involved...hell, in the world, at this point.

i don't want to comment on the political situation here (in this forum), but i will say this: at the risk being disregarded as a tree hugging hippie, what scares me about this thread is the violence in people's reactions. violence begets violence. i'm not saying that we should buy a terrorist a coke and everything will be okay, but nothing will be solved if everyone is in a blind rage. if our leaders are screwing things up, we have to address our leadership. it's hard to stay focused enough to affect a real change, rather than just moaning about it, when all that you can 'constructively' say is 'nuke 'em all'. it's not realistic, and it's not humane. i do not believe in 'tit for tat'. i would like an end to this bloodshed - not a new generation with a grudge against the west.

...and there are no innocent bystanders.

greetings, earthlings. take me to your dealer.

[Debz]

i apoligize for making such a controversial topic.. it has just been realy bothering me lately.. Not sure if its cuz of 'girl stuff' or what.. But ive been having like emotional breakdowns n crap about everything.. i sat on the couch and cried when i heard the leader of afganastan is gonna be in Philly on July 4th (where i live) because it fed to my belief not to go into the city because something is gonna happen.. it is really making me like crazy.. :/

i know this isnt a way to live. but i cant deal with this crap..

i begged my dad not to go see the fireworkz at penns landing on the 4th but he just said.. ahh ill be fine..

blah :(

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[Magnus]

Yeah Debz, thanks a lot for starting this topic! J/K!!!

Here's the bottom line. At a certain point, war becomes necessary when diplomatic avenues fail. Regardless of how this one has started, it's now happening and the "west" should ensure that as many of it's troops and civilians come home alive. That usually means eliminating the enemy's capability to wage war. Unfortunately it's a guerilla war, which makes search and destroy exponentially a lot harder. It must be made abbundantly clear however, that these terrorists or anyone else deemed to be the enemy by a government must be eliminated. Why? Because they pose a threat to your country. READ MY SIG! To quote it, it reads: "The function of a warrior is to eliminate an exterior enemy presence. A warrior is an antitoxin, a protector. The warrior does combat where and when necessary and not otherwise. " It gives the basic premise of defending your own country, sometimes through offense if it's required.

Unc, your'e not a peace loving hippy, but it has to be recognized that peace can sometimes be found only on the other side of war. Due to our nature as humans/animals, we will forever be at war, for resources, religion, ideology, power, defence, etc. etc.

What matters is how such wars are conducted. Attrocities can usually rarely be avoided, but at the end of the day what does matter is that your own boys come home. To ensure that, you have to kill more of them than they of you.

And remember, we're all GD'ers becuase men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.

"The function of a warrior is to eliminate an exterior enemy presence. A warrior is an antitoxin, a protector. The warrior does combat where and when necessary and not otherwise. "


- Ambrose Hollingworth Redmoon

[alekdesign]

I second that Uncle. And because I came to this forum to discuss my new passion in a friendly evironment, I am not gonna add more wood to the fire. See you over in the other side of the forum. Hope you dont hate me now...

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[Biohazard]

Alek Design and Uncle i'm with you guys on this. Probably shouldn't be starting this one up again but there have been some very scary points of view put across in this post.

Although i do not condone ANY of this recent terroist action, i think people need to think more about why people do\are driven to it.

I also think Alek has as much right to comment on this as any American, and by stopping him or disregarding his comments doesn't this contradict one of your founding beliefs?? Freedom of speech\expression?? Whether his country, or mine for that matter would exist without intervention from the US is irrelevant to his opinion on the RECENT events. Anyway, wasn't it Pearl Harbour that promted the US to get involved anyway? Nevermind, thats a whole new conversation.

I'm not out to P$$$ anyone off with this post. Just maybe to get people to think 'outside the box' for a change. If we don't, the West will screw its 'all-powerfull' self right up.

[Debz]

holy crap old post! :P

y can i make stuff for other ppl but when it comez to a sig my mind drawz a blank.. :(

[DeleteYourself]

Kool said...
I seem to recall a little invasion that we and a few of our real friends pulled off 60 years ago this month. That one didn't turn out too bad. Seems like Norway was one of the countries we liberated. But don't worry. The next time some maniac takes over most of your continent we'll just mind our own business.


Good point, Kool, except I don't think you can compare World War II to Iraq. Saddam is a sick and twisted, dude, and I'm glad he's not in power any more, but let's face it. He's no Hitler. He didn't have the means to attack us, not do I think he would ever try. He was happy ruling his little corner of the world, and attacking a country like the US would have jeoparized all of that.

And yes, thank you for your service to this country.

Btw, sorry to rehash old stuff. I didn't look at the date before I posted.

http://www.dafenix.org/todd/newsig.gif
Support Music and Arts Education | www.dafenix.org (http://www.dafenix.org) | 'You have no chance to win.' | GDF Mac Death Squad, Son

[Magnus]

"i think people need to think more about why people do\are driven to it"


Warriors, soldiers and combatants can still fight each other with honour. Kidnapping civilians and beheading them is contrary to the Geneva Convention, established to ensure any types of attrocities to enemy forces or POW's are avoided.


Unfortunately, collateral damage in the form of civilian casualties will result anytime you are using artillery or bombs/missiles in urban environments against military targets. That happens. It's an VERY unfortunate fact of warfare. However, driving a car full of explosives and detonating them in the middle of a densley packed street and causing women and children from your own country to die because of it....how can this be justified at all? Terrorists are the lowest form of life on this planet, beside rapists, pedophiles, and the man that invented the "clapper". You want to wage a war, fine...attack military targets. Killing people at random in the name of Jihad is futile, and a disgusting display of human behaviour that should, IMHO be erradicated from this planet, using whatever means necessary. Hunt them down and kill them all. Show no mercy, for none has been given.


"I also think Alek has as much right to comment on this as any American, and by stopping him or disregarding his comments doesn't this contradict one of your founding beliefs??"


At what point did someone hop on this thread and tell Alek to keep his mouth shut? At what point did a Moderator step in and say "Alek, we don't like your opinion, so you best keep it to yourself?". No PMs were sent, no emails, nothing. I think regardless of people's thoughts and feelings on any subject, the GDF has e'er been a place to express such thoughts without fear of reprisal or repression.


"Whether his country, or mine for that matter would exist without intervention from the US is irrelevant to his opinion on the RECENT events."


To a point...while I don't think any sane person feels the Iraq war has ever been justifiable, it's been the USA who has been the only counter to any conflict (at least the ones they chose to be involved with) that has at least had some kind of an effect on the outcome. To be ignorant of history is to doom yourself to repeating it. History will always have relevance, whether it took place 2000 years ago, or 20 minutes ago. Lest We Forget.


"Anyway, wasn't it Pearl Harbour that promted the US to get involved anyway? Nevermind, thats a whole new conversation."


The United States up to that point was already involved in the war effort in Europe, from sending massive amounts of war material, to volunteer fighter pilots flying in England. The war in the Pacific was something that the US couldn't have avoided if they tried...Japan knew strategically that crippling the US pacific fleet was crucial if they were going to be succesful in their campaigns. The US at thistime didn't have much choice.
"I'm not out to P$$$ anyone off with this post. Just maybe to get people to think 'outside the box' for a change. If we don't, the West will screw its 'all-powerfull' self right up."

No problem. But you may want to see the problem from a different angle yourself. Pick up a few books written by soldiers and get some first hand impressions of what it's like at the front, why they are fighting and so forth. Then snag a good history book which will cover the history of the middle east for the last 3000 years. You may not be so quick to dismiss any invasion of that area after reading it.

"...you should show only one design because that is what your paied to do....your not paied to let the client himself pick out which designs he likes best..."

- Zartan the Wise

[Biohazard]

'Kidnapping civilians and beheading them is contrary to the Geneva Convention, established to ensure any types of attrocities to enemy forces or POW's are avoided.'

The Geneva convention is something that the US Head of State can 'Opt' out of in a national security threat. Only America though. Because there is something written in AMERICA'S constitution about homeland protection. I'm not quite sure how this goes. Saw it on Reuters and I'll try to dig out the story. Because its in the constitution, everyone should respect that?? Maybe change it. America is powerful and in many cases is able to make AND break the rules because who's gonna stop them?

Due to America and the West being so powerful, it is very difficult for any country or group to stand up against them. Now remember that I am NOT for terroism OR condoning it but if you were in a situation where you were being controlled by, or had extreme hardships because of a (possibly invading) more powerful force, would you really pick up a rifle and charge at them knowing you would be killed? Or would you try and use more covert tactics to win your cause? Personally if it were me, i would not charge at them but would also only target millitary targets. NO CIVILIANS. But then, i am not experiencing what these people are and do not have a life as (needlessly?) difficult and neither do you. Western greed and materialism can seem (and probably is) a very unfair thing when you are in extreme poverty or hardship.

The part about looking at soldiers stories..... Thats not what this is about. The soldiers do not decide if they are there or not. It doesn't make any difference what they think. It would be more worthwhile reading the politicians books (apart from trying to separate the lies). Don't get me wrong, i understand it must be extremely hard for the frontline soldiers and i do not mean any disrespect as (most) are doing a fantastic job in a very difficult and dangerous role.

'At what point did someone hop on this thread and tell Alek to keep his mouth shut? At what point did a Moderator step in and say 'Alek, we don't like your opinion, so you best keep it to yourself?'. No PMs were sent, no emails, nothing. I think regardless of people's thoughts and feelings on any subject, the GDF has e'er been a place to express such thoughts without fear of reprisal or repression.'

Kool said to Alec.... 'After your country gets a couple of thousand people killed in a single day by these scumbags then i'll listen to your opinion'

Ok, not quite stopping him from giving his opinion but still! Why not just limit it to people who know someone who was killed to having opinions about it??!! And this was a moderator. A bit out of order methinks.

Gotta go, i know i'll probably get shot down for this post but there ya go.

[Magnus]

'The Geneva convention is something that the US Head of State can 'Opt' out of in a national security threat. Only America though. Because there is something written in AMERICA'S constitution about homeland protection.'

Military operations in foreign countries on the matter of disarmament constitutes homeland security how? I don't see how this is a relevant point. And the Geneva convention in this conflict has been NOT nullified. If it were, the soldiers responsible for the improper treatment of the Iraqi POW's wouldn't be getting court martialed right now.

'Maybe change it. America is powerful and in many cases is able to make AND break the rules because who's gonna stop them?'

True, but that doesn't justify terrorist activity. Terrorist activity by its very nature is designed to cause fear through the killing of civilian, military, or any other targets of opportunity that arise.

'Due to America and the West being so powerful, it is very difficult for any country or group to stand up against them.'

I'd rather have the West in charge than Iran, or Afganistan, or Iraq thanks. I even prefer one super-power over two...

'but if you were in a situation where you were being controlled by, or had extreme hardships because of a (possibly invading) more powerful force, would you really pick up a rifle and charge at them knowing you would be killed?'

I was a soldier once. As such, I would use my training to eliminate my enemy's capacity to wage war. Guerilla tactics. The Viet Cong and NVA used them to great success against a greater military US force in the Viet Nam war. You and I place a higher value on life I believe than these people. I am not prepared, nor would I ever, sacrifice innocent lives for a cause, be it religious, cultural, economic, or otherwise. It is not worth it on any level, to take the lives of those who have no place in battle. Soldiers deserve soldiers. Terrorists deserve death.

'But then, i am not experiencing what these people are and do not have a life as (needlessly?) difficult and neither do you.'

Nope...but this is not an excuse to say that honour has no place when conducting warfare. And as you say, they seem to bring much of this on themselves.

'Western greed and materialism can seem (and probably is) a very unfair thing when you are in extreme poverty or hardship.'

Absolutely true. But that's their class system for you. They have no middle class. They have wealthy, and they have the poor. It's the same old situation of the rich getting richer and the poor people dying. If they don't like it, then they can change it. I'm not going to sit here and feel sorry for them because I was born in the West. I didn't choose it, it just happened. However, if they do in fact see the difference between our ways and their own, then the onus is on them to improve it. Blowing up members of a new democratic gov't is not the way to do this.

'Kool said to Alec.... 'After your country gets a couple of thousand people killed in a single day by these scumbags then i'll listen to your opinion'

Ok, not quite stopping him from giving his opinion but still! Why not just limit it to people who know someone who was killed to having opinions about it??!! '

Why? Everyone is allowed to having an opinion, from those who have no idea what they are talking about, or those who were affected by it. And I certainly count Kool as having an informed opinion, he's one of the oldest memebers on GDF, and has served in the US Navy. His life experience alone is worth more than its weight in gold. When he talks, people listen, and do so for a reason. The time for half measures were over long before 9/11. However, as the somewhat final injustice, and due to the massive CIVILIAN loss of life, and a direct attack against a countries urban area, yeah, people are going to have a strong opinion about it. Had they attacked Langly Air Force Base, or maybe the naval yard in Virginia, ok...people would still be angry, but at least they attacked a military installation.

' And this was a moderator. A bit out of order methinks.'

Again, everyone here is entitled to their opinions. However, you can't honestly expect people to make a comment on a topic like this and not have any emotions. You should also take Kool's original statement to heart. If it was your country that was attacked in such a manner, perhaps the shoe would be on the other foot?

Please don't feel like anyone is going to shoot your posts down...No-one will, and I promise you that...but I do enjoy debating these things.

"...you should show only one design because that is what your paied to do....your not paied to let the client himself pick out which designs he likes best..."

- Zartan the Wise

[Kool]

DAMN!! Out of all the helpful, upbeat, supportive, informative 2000 some posts I've posted here. Some noobe on his first day digs this thing up and gives me a ration of crap about it. Like what the hell man. Usually people wait until at least their second day to start critisizing me.

Thanks Magnus for the back up. /emoticons/cool.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/signew.jpg

'You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.' H. J. Simpson

[Kool]

One last thing and then I'll let this thread die again. Magnus said everything I would have said and much better than I could but one thing I would like to point out. In my post I never in any way compared the situation in Iraq to WW2 or compared Sadam to Hitler. I was simply responding to Alek's really dumb statement that:

alekdesign said...
Example three: Every time USA has invaded an other country 'to help' it has ended badly. Many civilians have been killed, by US forces. Have they been motivated by a selfless need to help? I am not convinced.

Coming right after the anniversary of the largest and most successful invasion ever staged. An invasion in which many, tens of thousands of common everyday Americans gave their lives to free Europe from an absolute monster, determined to systematically exterminate an entire race of people. I felt his statement was way off base.

Biohazard I have no idea why you would want to spend your first day in our forum digging up an old thread like this and taking shots at me. You know nothing about me.

http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/signew.jpg

'You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.' H. J. Simpson

Post Edited (Kool) : 8/12/2004 5:07:48 AM GMT

[BuckarooB]

Rule Kool!

http://www.whispercreek.us/ImageServe/DrStrangeSig.gif

[Biohazard]

Kool, Sorry if i have offended you. I was looking through lots of posts and i agree, you have been very helpful and informative throughout.

No i don't know anything about you and likewise you of me but i am pretty sure you now have formed a fairly negative opinion of me. I was just quite shocked to see your response to Alec and i feel that i am allowed to comment on it, noobe or not.

Topics like this frequently come up in forums such as this one and generally cause some heated discussion from both sides. As a moderator i thought you would be very aware of this?

Like i said, sorry you got so angry about my points. This is obviously not a good place for someone of my opinions to comment. I will leave you all alone now. Hopefully without too many bad feelings. Adios.

[Kirby]

Magnus said...

I have more respect for the Irish terrorists/combatants in that on-going (though quiet as of late) problem.

Trying to get my head round that statement. You have more respect for the IRA? I know you Americans have a very romantic view of the 'Quaint Irish Freedom Fighters' but believe it or not, they have killed hundreds of innocent people with their terrorism!! They are no better than the terrorists that you, and the rest of the world face today.

I'm 29 and as a Londoner have lived my whole life with the fear of terrorism. I remember as a kid crying my eyes out after another bomb had gone off no more than a couple of miles from our doorstep, and my dad reassuring me that nothing would happen to me while he was there to protect me. I remember as a teenager being evacuated from Selfridges on Oxford Street after another bomb threat and the look of relief on my mothers face ,who was beside herself with worry, when I returned home safely. I remember watching countless numbers of news reports on IRA victims and bombings while growing up.

But terrorism was the rest of the worlds problem wasn't it. It didn't affect you. You thought America could never be touched by the evil finger of terrorism, but unfortunately it has. Now you've decided to act, now you can see the suffering of the millions of people that live each day under the shadow of terrorism - because you're living there too. Not nice is it?

This post is not intended in anyway to be anti American, hopefully now with your support and the pulling together of the majority of western countries terrorism can be eradicated from the world we live in, but that statement about the IRA touched a nerve with me. And I wanted to make it clear that 'terrorism' isn't a new phenominum that appeared after 9/11 but has been affecting millions of peoples lives for years.

P.S. You wonder why the IRA have gone 'quiet as of late'. Well, now America is out fighting terroism it can't be seen to support it in any way can it?

Post Edited (Kirby) : 8/12/2004 1:04:23 PM GMT

[D-Zine]

Kirby -uhhh...Magnus is from Canada...just FYI....

Boobie Island or Bust!

Post Edited (D-Zine) : 8/12/2004 1:11:50 PM GMT

[Magnus]

First of all mate, I'm Canadian. CANADIAN.

Secondly, don't you twist my words for a second, saying I have some kind of hollywood style, romanticised idea of the IRA because of 'Patriot Games' and so forth. I said I had more respect for the IRA than I did any facet of Al Qaeda and so forth. What that means, is that while I absolutley hate the al qaeda to the point where I'd actually press the button and nuke them, it only means that I'd send in conventional forces to deal with the IRA. Don't confuse the issue as though I'm supporting any actions by any terrorist cell that isn't linked to Al Qaeda. Gimme a break for pete's sake, I'm pretty sure I rubbed the 'Idiot' label off my forehead years ago.

And being CANADIAN I get to sit back on the side lines and make un-associated opinions based on each group's actions. Yes, they're both terrorist groups. Yes, they've both killed civilians. In terms of loss of life and costs in damage, Al Qaeda takes the cake. So I hate them more.

I somehow doubt that the US would support a terrorist group bent on harassing it's best ally, the UK. Besides, the last time I checked, there's no oil in Ireland...tee-hee-hee...

"...you should show only one design because that is what your paied to do....your not paied to let the client himself pick out which designs he likes best..."

- Zartan the Wise

[Kirby]

D-Zine said...
Kirby -uhhh...Magnus is from Canada...just FYI k :o)

Is he? WHOOPS
/emoticons/ibf-iamstupid.gif

Sorry for assuming you are American Magnus but that comment and you attitude just made me see red and I had to have my say.

Spose I should delete the post or rewrite it, but I won't. I'll leave it there for you all to ridicule me - but my points still stand.

[uncle carbunkle]

the ira gets a huge amount of it's support and funding from private us citizens. and we all know that wealthy private citizens always keep their noses out of politics.

"even my mom has a flash player. make sure you have one.
it's sorta important." - otto

[Magnus]

That's ok, apparently the Bin Laden's are getting US funding AND US Political support....just ask Mike Moore.

"...you should show only one design because that is what your paied to do....your not paied to let the client himself pick out which designs he likes best..."

- Zartan the Wise

[D-Zine]

Well..I am from America and personally - I think its pretty interesting that you are ASSUMING so many things about what us Americans think and feel towards terrorism...as if you think 9-11 was the firs time Al Qaeda tried anything with us and as if you think we ALL wear some sort of rose colored glasses .........

I know you Americans have a very romantic view of the 'Quaint Irish Freedom Fighters'

DO YOU?? DO you REALLY know how we view other goings on in the world and other terrorist groups and such?? No..I don't think so. You can't possibly know. We didn't walk around thinking there were no problems in the world until 9-11. Gimmie a fkn break!

You thought America could never be touched by the evil finger of terrorism, but unfortunately it has

AGAIN..How do YOU know what we are thinking and feeling? You don't!! You have NO idea.

And I wanted to make it clear that 'terrorism' isn't a new phenominum that appeared after 9/11 but has been affecting millions of peoples lives for years.

Do you HONESTLY think that we aren't aware of what goes on in other countries..that we aren't taught about it in school, that we don't watch the news on TV, read the newspapers, read online news and educate ourselves about what happens in other countries and that everyone of us American's only cares about ourselves and the U.S.?? That is a pretty interesting view you seem to have on us. I don't know nearly as much history as someone like Magnus but I do try to stay educated about what's going on in other countries as do most people that I know.

I'm not trying to keep this thread going - in fact I think it should die out, but I don't go around assuming things about how poeple in other countries think and feel about current situations in my country and I don't expect you or anyone else to do that to me. Sorry - but you touched a nerve with me too and I am just clarifying that not all Americans wear rose colored glasses and walked around thinking that everything was 'Okayyy great!' in the world until 9-11.

I think that's pretty sh!tty...just my .02¢.

Boobie Island or Bust!

[plantationfarmer]

what do you guys think of when i say 'islamic fundamentalism'? was just wondering.
i live in a terrorist 'hot spot' so would like to hear from people far away...

:mushy sushy in coconut oil. yum yum:

[Debz]

Magnus said...
That's ok, apparently the Bin Laden's are getting US funding AND US Political support....just ask Mike Moore.

pancake Mike Moore..

i want my own planet.. /emoticons/blink.gif

y can i make stuff for other ppl but when it comez to a sig my mind drawz a blank.. :(

[Drawing a Blank]

WOW!! I just found this thread and there are a lot of interesting political views being tossed around here. I just wonder why everyone has talked about terrorists in other counries and no one has talked about our own homegrown terrorists here in the USA. Wasn't the bombing in Oklahoma City a terrorist act? Why didn't we pass a patriot act then and start racial profiling all young white males with short hair (would have included me at the time because I'm white and had short hair). Did we ever get rid of the militia that Timothy McVee was a memeber of? (I'm asking because I really don't know)What about the KKK aren't they religious extremists? Don't they spread hatred? What about the gangs in Los Angeles aren't they groups that thrive on the terror of other people? How about the person(s) who sent the Anthrax letters aren't they terrorists? I'm sure there are many more that I can't think of right now but you get the point. Shouldn't we get rid of all of the groups that fits the current administrations dsfinition of terrorist in the USA as well as the rest of the world? I don't want to comment on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan becauseI have friends over there and I have one who came back dead. My point here is that people talk about terrorism like we don't have any terrorist here in the USA. We do.


Just wanted to add my 2 cents. May peace find us all.


"Oooh Benson; you are so mercifully free from the ravages of intelligence."

[D-Zine]

Ohh Greg...didn't you read Kirby's post?? Us American's didn't know what terrorism was until 9-11! We thought everything was 'gee golly great!!' You know you just made up all that stuff you just listed above - you know you did..come on ;o)

Boobie Island or Bust!

[uncle carbunkle]

like it or not d-zine, kirby's post is indicative of how many nations view the usa. it has a lot to do with foriegn policy, not just individual americans. don't take it personally. i'm sure that kirby won't assume you're a morbidly obese yokel who married her daddy and eats in front of the montel williams show, just like you won't assume kirby is a theiving cockney lay-about with bad teeth...(where are you from, kirby? i forget...just got on a little tangent here...).

we're at a very interesting time in the development of our culture as a species, (everyone's travelling and talking...never happened before on such a global scale), and as nations. i'm very interested (and frightened) to see what happens politically over the next few years.

now, i'm off to shave my beaver and drink maple syrup, eh.

>>ELEVEN<<

[DeleteYourself]

I want to be a theiving cockney lay-about (minus the bad teeth).

Greg, good points! I propose a war on middle-American militia men!
Sorry to offend if there are any of you out there.

*To the Boobie-mobile!*

http://www.dafenix.org/todd/newsig.gif
Support Music and Arts Education | www.dafenix.org (http://www.dafenix.org) | 'You have no chance to win.' | GDF Mac Death Squad, Son

[Magnus]

Uncle, you brought up an interesting point. I don't think it's fair to determine any country's national views based on foreign policy as set down by their government. Although it's hard not to say 'this country is like that, or those people are like this' based on what we learn from the news, or one or a few people's opinions. It's nearly impossible to generalize accurately, yet it can't be avoided, simply because we often don't have a chance to to visit said country and get a feel for the locals. C'est la vie I suppose. Curse the global information network!

Plantationfarmer - To me, Islamic fundamentalism is just as bad as Manifest Destiny, or the the idea behind the Arian race, or the spread of Communism/Democracy. The only national goal or motivation that I truly like is being proud about being a citizen of a certain country. All those other ideals can kiss my somewhat hair free bum bum.

"...you should show only one design because that is what your paied to do....your not paied to let the client himself pick out which designs he likes best..."

- Zartan the Wise

[BuckarooB]

Magnus!

Bum Bum? Hair Free?

That's a bit swish coming from you... No? /emoticons/happy.gif

http://www.whispercreek.us/ImageServe/DrStrangeSig.gif

[Magnus]

I just like to keep people guessing and on their toes...

"...you should show only one design because that is what your paied to do....your not paied to let the client himself pick out which designs he likes best..."

- Zartan the Wise