Did I waste my money paying for college and becoming a GD?

[bobbi716]

I just need a reminder that my college education was worth it... Because where I work, they require you have a degree in graphic design to get the job, but don't give a crap once you're in and don't respect any of your decisions even though I AM PAYING $25,000 BACK IN STUDENT LOANS FOR THE STUPID THING!!!!!

This company is RUINING my career! I am feeling like a COMPLETE failure. GOD I NEED A NEW JOB!

[D-Zine]

It was worth it Bobbi. I'm paying back out the ass myself as well but I don't regret college.

Degree or no degree they will still not repsect your decisions half the time...it's just the way people are.

You are NOT a failure...they just simply suck :o)

/emoticons/cheers.gif

http://coastalcarousel.com/GDF/metatag3.jpg

[Big Perm-dizzle]

if you dont like GD in general you did waste your money if its that job you hate find a new one


if you love what your doing you'll never work a day.....

/emoticons/bootyshake.gif - how can you not laugh at that?

JUST LAUNCHED - www.hirethisdesigner.com (http://www.hirethisdesigner.com) - check it out

[bobbi716]

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I LOVE design. I am just having one of the CRAPPY days where I'm getting really offended because these marketing people are handing our jobs to the 'production artists.' There's about 3 times as many, and we're busy, so they're doing the work we should be doing. There's wounds from BIG past experiences similar to this, and this is just the salt thrown in.

BIG past experience #1: We have a team of Graphic Designers (3 of us) - we design mailing pieces, flyers, the company catalogs, etc. Our 'art' department does production art. Cleans up logos and such. So when the first opportunity came around for us to design a Premier Catalog - a high end, classy, 100 - page sweet arse catalog, we were excited as all heck. We're screaming, 'We'll do whatever it takes to get this baby done in the 2 months you're giving us!!' 6 months later, and a LOT of hassle at the printers (I think it was a total of 90 hours of OT fixing mistakes) the catalog was done - not by us - by our productions artists. Meanwhile, while all that was going on, we were sitting here with our thumbs up our butts while they did our work. I am just holding this GRUDGE, and I need to get rid of it or I'm going to go crazy...

I LOVE Graphic Design. It's the coolest job ever. I just have these bad days when I want to RIP people's heads off - I'm sure you all can relate... :o)

I've been spending my day lingering on one job that I have a little creative freedom, and I'm just going wacko on it. So it's helping...

[PrintDriver]

So you have 3 designers, a bunch of production artists but no Art Director?

And why don't your production artists know how to get things printed? If they don't know the print rules, how can they be doing the production work? And I'm sure one or two of THEM went to college?

I get the feelling you look down upon your production artists, don't consider them designers though some of them may have aspirations as such. But has anyone taken the time to explain things to them? Or is printing knowledge and file setup only given to the 'true designers' while the production people 'clean up logos and such'.

Sorry, being in production, I'm easily offended by some comments, but your company is very hard to understand. I'm sure you think the same thing sometimes. It burns me when other people in my company try to do my job. Then get it half-cocked and shove it in my lap to get it printed. Somehow. Reverse situation here tho. The production team DOES know more about printing than the designers.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[Magnus]

PD is right. I've been called a graphic artist before, and I always correct them, saying I'm a graphic designer. To me it's like we're both doctors, but one specializes in one are, and so forth.

Try not to cause any waves for yourself there, but ask the next higher up in the chain of command why that situation was allowed to happen. No sense holding it in, but when you do let it out, do it in a controlled manner. You don't need to make things worse for yourself.

"The function of a warrior is to eliminate an exterior enemy presence. A warrior is an antitoxin, a protector. The warrior does combat where and when necessary and not otherwise. "


- Ambrose Hollingworth Redmoon

[olcvisual]

bobbi716 said...
I just need a reminder that my college education was worth it... Because where I work, they require you have a degree in graphic design to get the job, but don't give a crap once you're in and don't respect any of your decisions even though I AM PAYING $25,000 BACK IN STUDENT LOANS FOR THE STUPID THING!!!!!

This company is RUINING my career! I am feeling like a COMPLETE failure. GOD I NEED A NEW JOB!Apparently you at least learned a few things at school. I wasted precious time and money on "Multimedia" classes.

[ron hasler]

bobbi716,

Hey, I feel for you... been there more times than I care to remember.

Your post brings up a few things I'd like to address. First, the world has always had more graphic designers than it needs... the trick is finding your niche or being such a great generalist that people hire you. Easier said than done. Graphic design is a wonderful career but you have to put a lot into it to keep it alive. I've bounced back-and-forth between design and production positions fro over 20 years. When I worked as a production artist I longed to be 'over the fence' and with the designers and art directors. When I worked as a designer with clients calling me every 10 minutes making minute changes and asking the same questions over and over I longed for the quiet corner of the studio with the waxer and spray booth, (ok, now I'm really showing my age *g*).

Your college degreee *is* worth something, don't discount it. Also, while I've met many people doing design work who didn't have formal training in a structured art curriculum, I can't emphasize enough the value of a focused art education. I think exposure and knowledge of art history, critical thinking and being in classes with like-minded students goes a long way to making you a better designer. You may not like your present job but there's at least time to be observant and notice the management policies that don't work so you can avoid making them yourself. The usual warning sign of poor management is bad performance being rewarded and good performance being ignored.

Dealing with inept management is the bane of all creative people. In my case I worked for a major entertainment company (mouse ears) in their home video department for five years until I was laid off, but that is a topic for another day. The marketing department there pretty much ran the show, much like your current situation. To make things worse, 'project managers' and 'assistant managers' would routinely override artistic decision made by the art department. I can't tell you how many days morale was so low we just played solitare and said 'f it!' Point is you can't win in those environments. I totally understand your catalog project was screwed up but that seems to be a function of poor management... I'm just guessing here but I'll wager the production department had to do their regular work in addition to the catalog... this is how mistakes happen and unfortunately it makes the entire art department look bad.

My advice is simple. Learn what you can from that job then seek another. Make friends with the people you think are worthy and keep in touch with them. All the best jobs I ever had were the direct result of recommendations from friends I've met in the trade. Cheer up, it's not always a struggle. You could be like me... a freelancer desperately trying to keep his small one-man studio afloat in a time of cut throat under cutting.

/emoticons/thumbsup.gif

[bobbi716]

I'm getting a lot of good feedback here. And I'm almost done for the day, so I'll probably post again tomorrow and explain my situation a little better.

I'm sorry if offended anyone. I certainly didn't mean to. I don't think I 'look down' at the production artists. In fact, I know that I couldn't sit at one of their computers and do their job. And I know that there are a few of them that are more creative than me and could possibly be a better print designer than me if given the chance.

I was venting a bit there, and got a little out of control maybe. So again, really sorry to offend anyone. I appreciate the honesty, though. I'm glad to see how people read me sometimes. It's always a learning experience. I'd love to give the whole rundown on my situation, but it would probably take about 30 minutes to read, and might not be too interesting.

And I am a young'n in the graphic design world, and I know I can get cocky... I will probably write a little more tomorrow. I am sometimes kind of bad at trying to 'type' what I feel. But I'll give it another shot.

[bobbi716]

Well, here goes. It really bothers me when I offend people, because I am constantly trying to see things from others' angles, and I actually try not to offend people. So I'd like to just take the time to explain everything with a little more detail. If it's boring, sorry... feel free to move on. :)

Magnus said...
...but ask the next higher up in the chain of command why that situation was allowed to happen.

We did actually approach our art director several times, and weren't able to get a straight answer why this all happened. From everything we heard, we 'assumed' that it was because they thought we were going to be too busy to put it together, having only 3 of us, and since there's a ton of 'graphic artists' - they thought it would help us out. We explained several times that we wanted the job and would work our tails off and get it done for them on time. But they either didn't listen or didn't believe us. I don't know.

I give props to our art department for getting this thing done - they did work their butts off on this. And it turned out pretty nice. And from what you said, Ron:

ron hasler said...
I totally understand your catalog project was screwed up but that seems to be a function of poor management... I'm just guessing here but I'll wager the production department had to do their regular work in addition to the catalog...

You hit that right on the head. This was stemmed from poor management. I'm no expert, but I can clearly see there are problems above me, but they are difficult to face. But we're working on that, and that's a whole other story... These artists were pulled aside to work on the catalog while the other artists did the regular work for the department. But I'm sure if they had the extra time they picked up jobs from their own department as well. I understand they worked really hard, and I give them credit for that.

PrintDriver, I apologize to you, because I offended you personally. I'll give you a short explanation of what situation I'm in. We have 3 'creative designers' and a bunch of 'graphic artists' or production artists. There's 30-35 of them. What they do on a regular day is get in logos (faxed, emailed, whatever) and pull them into CorelDraw and clean them up, prepare them for imprinting on products, set up proofs for the customer and working with our CSRs to get the art approved by the customer. They don't work on any 'print jobs' like we do. We work on catalogs for the company, flyers, mail pieces, newspaper and magazine ads, invoice stuffers, things of this nature. I know the graphic artists went to school for the same thing I did, but where they are placed in this company and where I am placed in this company is really two different jobs. And because we work from a library of thousands and thousands of images, there is a certain procedure to how we send our artwork to our printers. With whom we have a very close relationship with - they archive all our images for us and do quite a bit of our colorwork. It's an advantage to only having 3 designers. We can keep our communication consistent, abling us to work very quickly and get things done under very short deadlines. This is where problems stem from when the artists pick up our jobs. We are capable of doing all this. We want to do this. We enjoy doing it. Why, oh why do our jobs get handed over to them? We are not that busy... This is what is really eating at me. My venting most likely came off much differently...

PrintDriver said...
But has anyone taken the time to explain things to them?

Here's one of the HUGE problems with our management. These artist were told not to ask us. Don't ask me why. They did come to us with some questions, which we were more than willing to answer. We were originally going to look over their final quark spreads and go through them to be sure everything was properly prepared to go to the printers. That wasn't done. The files were send directly to the printers, and they had many problems with little things that we'd have fixed. Like boxes having white fills, and bleeds pulled out on one side of a page and not the other, and runarounds being turned on in different places and not in others, a million and one colors in the color palettes - but only a few being used. Little nit-picky things that took them a lot of time to go through and fix. So we were willing to help. And it's not the artists' faults. If they'd have known there was going to be this much trouble, I'm sure they would have approached us with more questions. Again, the management playing a brick wall and we just couldn't break through.

I hope I've cleared this up a bit. And I'm probably taking your offense into exaggeration, but I hate offending people. Really, I'm a nice girl. /emoticons/wink.gif

I thank everyone for listening to my venting, and I appreciate all feedback, whether it's positive or negative. It's all helping me learn, and I'm always striving to learn more and more.

These forums are the bomb. I hope ya'll don't mind that you'll be seeing more of me... (eek, hey?)
I expect that I can learn A LOT from all of you!!! /emoticons/worshippy.gif

[PrintDriver]

sorry man.
i didn't realize your company was fulfillment.
I still stand by your artists though and, if I were you, I would make note of the ones who did come to ask you questions when the 'bosses' told them not too. They would be the once to hold onto in a pinch cuz they care.
Like most companies, sometimes the management decisions are certainly hard to fathom.
And look at it this way, if someone did have an answer as to why the project went over time and over budget, there would be someone to blame and management is NEVER to blame. LOL.

Peace.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[bobbi716]

Yeah, in my venting I wasn't very clear...

I'm really taking everyone's advice into account. I know it's time for me to move on. I've calmed down now... :P

Now I can chill, write up some cover letters, work a bit on my portfolio, and get a move on. I've learned a lot from this job. Through good and a lot of bad experiences, but it's still all worth it. I'm ready to move onto something bigger, better, and more exciting!!

[defjoe]

Ron...where did you work for the mouse Ears?

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'

[ron hasler]

Burbank, CA.
1993 - 1998

[BuckarooB]

In Cricketania all is futile... http://www.zzpop.com/artfolio/cricket.html

Sounds like you need to do your own gig...

Read, 'I could do anything, if only I knew what it was'. It helped me a lot. Maybe it will help you as well.

BB

No Matter Where You Go... There You Are. (Confucius)

[paulrandfan]

I know how you feel...I just got a job, and my salary is starting at 10 dollars and hour. I wasn't expecting you know to be rich, nobody does if they get into design,...but 10 dollars and hour! I made 8 working at Lowes home improvement...sorry enough whining
It is worth it though...being a part of the design community and having the contacts I made in college are great.

[Liam]

i've been looking at some threads in the soap box, and it is very interesting. I am getting ready to start college in the fall, my bigest worry is not building a good enough portfolio because that seems to be one of the most important things in the GD industry. I have ONLY JUST started to build my portfolio, however I am making it one of my prioritys, as I go through college I will be building it. I am scared that i wont be able to get a GD job after college, but I will work very hard, and i Loooove graphic design. It makes me feel better to know that there is people out there who have got jobs, maybye I have got a chance. Still, This is a bit off topic for this thread (sorry) so i will stop.

Anyways,bobby.
why diddn't your company let the graphic designers and artists work together that would make more sense wouldn't it? since the deadline wasn't met they could have let you help after the deadline, to possiblly get a better job done and a bit quicker. http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
PS: I hope your college education was worth it because I am going soon. i am going to start at a community college that offers an ok graphic design program then i am going to transfer credits to a four year college to finnish up and get a bachellors degree, it should be cheaper that way but i will still be able to do an internship and be getting a lot of graphic design tuition and experience at a more affordable price so. if i find it hard to get a job straight out of college, i wont be up to my ears in debt.

(i'm sorry I talk a lot)

http://www.ice-design.ws/idv3_banner.png http://www.ice-design.ws

[PrintDriver]

Liam-
Don't wait for your college to offer you an internship. Find one yourself and call it a part-time job. Most colleges wait for senior year to 'place' you with a design firm or some such where you are supposed to learn all there is to know. Pre-press is an excellent place to start.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[paulrandfan]

If I had to do it all over again, I would have gotten an internship in prepress (agreed printdriver) A lot of four year degrees seem to leave out a lot of technical skills. I had one class that taught ancient forms of document setup and design (used rubilyth..spelling?) I did a six month internship @ Wonders of Wildlife, and didn't get a lot of new experience out of it. Your professors can put you in contact with a lot of people, but go to them first. A lot of school have publication departments, and I would look there, because they seem to have a lot more structure.

[Liam]

ok PD, here is what is going to happen. I get to take an internship on my last year of community college, just before I start a bigger 4 year college. do you think that getting an internship half way through my tuition is a good idea? if not, how do I get an internship on my own? I just took a look in the college catalog and I found a single class called 'film assembly' it teaches about margins, page layout for printing and pre-press. I am going to find out if I can take a single class that isn't part of the degree (i hope so) there is no pre-requisites. Are you saying that if I try to take some technical classes to do whith printing my chances of success in the field are greater? Well your advice seems to be good, you can point me in the right direction so I don't mess up. I really want to do graphic design and I am willing to work very hard to achieve such a goal, I just hope I succeed becase there is a lot of people in the field that are unemployed (it scares me a lot).


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[PrintDriver]

The name 'film assembly' kinda scares me. As long as they are showing you how to do layout using computer programs and not rubylith and wax it may be worth taking. Take it as an out of major elective, since there are no prerequisites.

As for getting yourself an internship it's just like getting yourself any job - only a mite easier cuz usually interns aren't paid well,if at all. You want something that will teach you, even if it is just doing file set up and no design. Doing that will teach you the many ways NOT to set up a file and also the correct ways. Tough to get into if you don't have some experience with layout programs or are very lucky to find someone willing to teach. Kool or D-zine can probably offer you better advice there. Knowing pre-press is no guarantee of success. Being a successful GD means having talent and the drive to do a hell of a lot of self promotion. Knowing pre-press just helps you get things done quicker, with fewer costly mistakes. Nothing sux more than having to pay for a reprint outta your own pocket.

Start a new thread with a post similar to the one above and let the design pros on here answer you. At least you are looking ahead and building a bridge over the abyss instead of being there and wondering why no one is handing you a job.

And hang around. We'll answer anything.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[Liam]

thanks, i will make another post /emoticons/wink.gif


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[D-Zine]

Rubylith and wax! Wow....I remember that!! I didn't use it in the work field but I used it in college! It seems I was always ripping that damn rubylith and having to start over...grrr! LOL!

:O)

http://coastalcarousel.com/GDF/metatag3.jpg

[Liam]

hmmmm, that sounds interesting. I have no idea what you are talking about.
lol


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[PrintDriver]

You have NO idea. Be lucky.
D-Z we still use it for silkscreening on occasion. Cut it on the vinyl plotter. Doesn't tear so bad if it's nice and fresh. Older gets brittle.
Still sucks. Static clings to everything.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[D-Zine]

PD - I had to use it in college. When I went to school we learned the traditional ways of doing everything and THEN we learned everything on the computer. Kinda cool to have an understanding of both! Come to think of it..when I first started as an ad designer they were still waxing here. Doing everything on computer, then printing it out seps and waxing them to send off to the press. I do NOT miss those days. Period! LOL!!! What is my office right now use to be the dark room where they developed all the pictures they took. Wierd ;o)

http://coastalcarousel.com/GDF/metatag3.jpg

[Liam]

i want a vinyl plotter, they are the things that cut vinyl sheets right? I used a 'Vinyl Cutter' a loooong time ago once at school in england. you can make some kewl stickers. I wonder how much it would cost for a large scale thing, so you can make huge vinyl designs for the side of a car. they sell small ones for like $200 each. Would it be cheaper to make yourself if you had the setup? i love cars especially imports. i wanna get one someday and make my own designs on the side and hood ect. that would be kewl.


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[bobbi716]

PrintDriver - I really appreciate all your suggestions, and I've since been thinking seriously about getting a 2nd shift internship or something at a local printing company - even not for pay - so I can learn some of the depths of prepress. Do you think this is a good idea? I mean, if I can just get in one or two nights a week after my regular 9-5, that would be cool. Even just as job shadowing. Do you think I could get enough out of something like that?

[PrintDriver]

Bobbi if you can get find a prepress dude that will let you job shadow and will teach you something that would be excellent. Since you have some skills they would more'n likely put you to work in some capacity. Make sure you make it clear what you want to learn and that you are there to learn, not do grunt work all the time.

Liam- A 48' vinyl plotter is about $8K used. If you love cars, it's the last thing you want to be sticking to them. Most cars used for advertising require a paint job after the vinyl is removed (I'm not talking about the printed removeable BusMark stuff but the lettering vinyl.) A machine that will print BusMark can range upwards from $12K depending on size and print quality. The rolls of vinyl range around $100 each for a 30' short roll unless you go for the supercool metallics. Then the price goes up sometimes double that or more. Then there is the software, and the skill to use it, etc. etc. etc. Learn to airbrush. Lasts longer, looks nicer.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[Liam]

ok , i was just kinda curious. hmmmm... well i guess that DIY vynil graphics isn't a good idea. I should just get a good soundsystem and engine upgrades with the $8000 i save on a vynil plotter ;) not that i will have that kinda money anytime soon. oh well.
Anyways i looked around town and i found at least 3 print shops and there is probably more ;) i should check them out, i just got a new 8-5 job that i will be working soon, i dont start yet, i gotta quit my evening job first. I will be in the real world of all day work (cant be much different from school tho) then i will be able to sign up for my classes at college this fall. but I will probably do what bobbi is, go to a couple of the print shops in town (i live in a really small town , Fremont,NE jsut outside of omaha) its kewl that we have a few print shops. I might be able to get some kind of weekend job learning stuff i need (like extra college ;) well, i gotta get back to learning some more Flash. i am going to modify my website a little bit, i'll tell you when i have updated it.

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[BuckarooB]

You paid for college?

Bummer!

No Matter Where You Go... There You Are.

[claidheamdanns]

Your idea of shadowing in Prepress is a great idea. The only thing (I found anyway) is finding a company that will let you do it. But I would say, go ahead and do it.

Prepress Dude

Claidheamdanns
'Sword Dance'

[Liam]

yeah, well my prority right now is my portfolio, i may wait til i transfer to four year college (Junior and Senior year )before i start looking for internships.


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