Contests or all the nasty bits from the phonebook cover thread

[lesliegraphics]

You should have a cover contest open to everyone. For a very small prize amount you would be surprized at the quality of art work you might get because many would just like to get a piece of their work into print. I'm sure the telecommunications company wouldn't have a problem coming up with say 2 or 300 dollars as a winning prize. Then it could turn into a yearly contest, and this is good advertising for the company that puts out the phone book. You can have a exact topic that must be depicted in the artwork or leave it open. These type of projects really build a sense of community, it's good for the company and good for the people.

[balou]

Hey, why have a GD on staff then? Just have a contest. GD contests bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

[lesliegraphics]

The graphic designer is still needed on staff to take the artwork and make it into a cover, just like the graphic designer on staff will take a photograph and make it into a cover, she or he still does the graphic design the art work is just en element on the cover. I mean if it creates a beautiful cover for them, what's so bad about that? Go ahead ream me

[Mynock]

You won't win this battle lesliegraphics. It can only end bad for you. Contests are bad, and it's been mentioned a million times. Our will have a contest to "ream" you. After that I will have a contest to see who can create the house for me. I want each of them to build a house, and I'll live in the one I like best.

[lesliegraphics]

The graphic designer on staff who is handling the project to begin with will layout the design for the cover including the artwork. You make up the requirements for the contest such as size and what, no hard art boards so that the art work can be scanned at a high dpi for print, etc., the company can elect a few judges to judge the art, to include the graphic designer. In fact the graphic designer in effect gets to become a bit of an art director - come guys it's not rocket science we're talking about here

[lesliegraphics]

Now you don't have to get ugly with me. Communication Arts just put out their call for entries, that a contest in essence isn't it?

[flutterby nut]

graphic designer on staff deserves to enjoy all the benefits of doing a job well done...opportunity for porfolio piece...all associated bragging rights...shouldn't be required to have to share spotlight with 'contest winner'...refer to all posts regarding spec work and work for hire...

anyhoo...back to the project...i like the desert image...adds a great deal to the design i think...the smaller images are making it a little too busy now....just thoughts...

[EC]

Communication Arts just put out their call for entries, that a contest in essence isn't it?

Not the same thing.

[lesliegraphics]

Yes it is. The winners don't get a cash prize but one much more valuable, a spot in their magazine. I'd say if you tried to buy that same spot it would be a pretty expensive ad. So it basically the same thing, especially the section for unprinted/unpublished pieces. One difference you have teams(design agencies), individuals, students, everyone all in competition. You fail to see a similiarity there to a contest?

[EC]

I haven't read through the whole thread -- but is everybody involved in the competition being compensated in some way? I understand that advertising for trade is a legitimate benefit ... but typically in a call for entries situation, the designers have already been paid for their efforts by their clients.

[lesliegraphics]

Go to www.commarts (http://www.commarts). com/competition for all the sorid details of this Contest. It give all the different categories. Most are for published pieces so I would assume that yes the designer/agency/whoever got paid to do the work. But you see that makes no difference - it's still a contest and the winners get published in one of the world's most prestigious design magazines. There is no $ award, but to get your piece published like that would be worth lots I'd say in future business & showing it off to other clients in your portfolio. A "call for entries" or a "call to artists" is simply verbage used to announce a competition. Advertising for trade is a legitimate benefit?

[lesliegraphics]

Mynock,
I'm not in a battle with anyone. I just want to say that I see a big difference between a client coming to you and saying they want you to do spec work, and a contest call for entries. They are very different. I think everyone just wants to lump it all together and call it all spec work but it's not. You know you are entering a contest, you get the rules,,you're a grown up.....you know the risks. If you decide to work on a contest, that's up to you. If you work alone doing spec work for your client you are an idiot. Also some freelancers find that contests are the only way to get something published, I hate to say it, but if you've got nothing else, then go ahead and try to win a design contest. You could get pblisd. get some cash, and if you don't win, then at least you were working on something..honing your craft. Maybe you can even take that piece and turn it into something else. Contests are just options - people should stop wagging their fingers like a bunch of old women - we're all adults here.

[JPnyc]

But wouldn't the same apply to spec work then? Isn't that an option?

[EC]

Advertising for trade is a legitimate benefit?

That was poorly phrased, but what I meant was trading design time for something like advertising I have no problem with whatsoever. It's compensation for your efforts. As long as you are guaranteed that you will receive advertising, not a "CHANCE to win" advertising.

How can you say that not receiving compensation and being compensated "makes no difference" what a joke.

Ok, I'm done now. This is so pointless.

[EC]

Most people here feel that honoring our craft means insisting that we have enough respect for ourselves to require that we are compensated for our efforts. Ok no really, that's it from me.

[flutterby nut]

if you don't win, then at least you were working on something..honing your craft

work on something for a client, hone your craft, GET PAID, get your client published, get repeat business via word of mouth...a far better win/win situation imho...

[balou]

Please keep on track and help out Biosensor with his layouts.

You knew where this was going to go. :D

[GreenThumb]

Mynock,
I'm not in a battle with anyone. I just want to say that I see a big difference between a client coming to you and saying they want you to do spec work, and a contest call for entries. They are very different.

I agree. As an advertising agency we have to make pitches in competition with other agencies a LOT. Its the way corporate business works in a competitive design atmosphere.

Its all dependant on money- If someone comes looking for a website and asks us to do specwork they can kiss my a$$, but if a client that is BIG (and by big I mean 50+k in the long run) sends up an RFP (Request for Proposal) for their ad campaign, hell yea we are going to do it!

[lesliegraphics]

Ok your'e on track with what I said. Are you going to get paid for your time spend doing your proposal? Nope. It is a part of doing business, and sometimes these proposals can take alot of time to put together (that is if you seriously want a chance at winning the bid/job). Anyone who completely ignores/denies the value of these design contests and in fact says they are harmful probaby never won one. . . . . . . .oopps, guess I'm gonna get it for that one too.

[lesliegraphics]

flutterby nut,

Basing your career on strict principles that don't allow you to create something for a contest in design or illustration is a real shame. This is why: if you win, you get the prize, you get a piece in print, and then that client that offered the contest to begin with, will likely ask you to do more work. I know this because that's what happened to me.

[lesliegraphics]

To All of You who don't agree with me on Design/Art Contests:

I am sorry if I offended anyone. That is not what I intended to do. I think that anyone who refuses on principle alone to enter a contest is missing out. If you have time, you are in between projects, etc., or you just simply have a really good idea for a cover contest that you heard about, you should do it. No guarantee that you will win (boo-hoo) but hey like I said last night, we are all adults here and if you are going to be in graphic design get ready for some rejection, it's a part of the job. If you feel entering a contest is beneath you because you have more self respect than I do, I'd say stop taking yourself so serious "dude", lighten yourself up, it's just a contest, if you have time for it do it - if your'e afraid stay away. If you don't like taking chances then don't. Look at the big picture: Life (in the graphics field) is like one big contest, you'll never win if you don't at least try. I have lots of clients that have nothing to do with design contests. I have two clients that I have done work for over the past 5 years because I won a cover contest. One of those resulted in a really big job money wise. I am so damn happy I took the time to paint that little cover and drop it off. It took four hours to make and I really didn't think it would win, I did it the day before the deadline just sort of on the fly, and it turned out good and in fact was the winner. From that cover I have have two other covers I have illustrated and some other graphic design work that amounted to a 4 month project (taking something from beginning to end at the printer). Maybe I'm just lucky, whatever, I just feel like if I have the time to do a contest, I'll do one. If it goes nowhere I am a little sad that my baby didn't win. But guess what? I get over it. And I have a illustration/or design that maybe I will use in another way some other time, or maybe I have a piece of artwork to put into a gallery; the possibilities are there, but alot of you seem to have that door firmly closed. OK, that's less competion for me!

[lesliegraphics]

Sorry about all my typos in my posts, I have a broken finger right now because I was passing the football with my 13 year old son and he fired the ball at me like John Elway and I tried to catch it and nearly lost my hand. Ended up with a broken ring finger on my left hand (thank god, it wasnt on the right hand or I would be in real trouble.)

[morea]

this is the best way I have heard it put:

"Engaging in spec work is eroding the image of designers. It perpetuates the falsehood that what we do is easy or valueless." -Drew Davies, founder of Oxide Design


<side note> I recently read a wonderful blog written by Pariah S. Burke of Designorati on the topic of spec work, anyone interested can find it here:

http://designorati.com/graphic-design/business-3/2006/coping-with-clients-who-use-your-concept-design-without-paying </side note>


As professionals, we have a responsibility to try to uphold the integrity of our field... designers already suffer enough negative image problems. The fact that many designers are willing to hand over a concept without a second thought does indeed give people the impression that our work is not worth paying for, which only perpetuates our difficulty in charging fair rates for our work.

As Mynock said earlier... it's like expecting a dozen construction companies to build you a home, and then only paying the one you choose after seeing them completed... other "professionals" would laugh in your face if you asked them to do a project for you on spec.

A final word of warning to anyone still considering working for free; many "contests" often requires that the designer turn over rights to the piece to the "contest", so don't count on being able to use the piece for something else after you've given it away. Read that fine print.

[JPnyc]

Point well taken. Samples of one's work should be good enough.

[lesliegraphics]

I don't consider spec work and a design contest to be one in the same. The people putting on the design contest aren't your clients. If a client wants spec work from you - I totally agree - don't do it. I have been asked before for spec work and refused, submitted a contract to them for work, and then basically said "your move" and if they get back with me great, if not, I have already moved on. The difference is clear. In a design contest you are working for yourself, you are your client. The contest is just a vehicle for you to use. Each contest is different but a common trait to all of them if real simple: if it dosen't win the contest it's still yours, they don't own it just because you submitted it. If in fact you do see some of your work out there that you were not paid for, then it's time to find a lawyer and have him write a letter for you. Usually a letter is all it will take if you are in the right and can prove it. 14 years in design and I have never had a problem with infringement. Had a few problems with clients not paying full amounts, but have always resolved them on my own.

[lesliegraphics]

Work for Free - what does that mean? Well some of you say it's spec work, which it is, and some of you say it's entering a contest. Well what do you thing offering your services for free to a non-profit is, it's working for free. I read the site you gave Morea and it great, but it also recommends working for free in the above mentioned way.
Bottom line is each and every designer has to make their own choice and do what's best for them. I think entering design contests is really the least of our problems as a whole profession. What really bothers me and causes me to think is that there are "non-designers" doing design work, who have had no education, but have the programs and so somehow or another get a design job that maybe should have been done by a practicing professional. To me that is doing more eroding of the profession than a contest.

[Kool]

Sheeze lesliegraphics, we get it already. You think contests are ok. We at the GDF as well as every other major graphic design organization and forum disagree with you. Lets just leave it at that. Post after post after post including some rather insulting comments are not going to change our mind. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[lesliegraphics]

Morea,
About the Mynock comment of houses: I thought it was a silly comparsion. Haven't you ever heard of a "Spec House"? Custom builders build them all the time. Also large developers build them when they make developements, right along side the houses that have been presold. These guys build these houses in hopes that someone will come along and buy it for the price they want hopefully. It's done on speculation and sometimes the builder makes lots of money, sometimes they don't, that's why its called a "Spec House." But the way he put it was "build 20 houses and then I'll buy the one I like" funny that's exactly how spec houses and real estate works. It's just weird to make some sort of connection to that and graphic design or art competitions. If you know you are in a design "contest" then you know the rules, I mean what's everyone crying about. For every design contest out there, there must be a thousand paying clients, it's not like design contests have completely taken over our profession. What is however causing real harm to our profession on a wide scale are the onine sites for freelancers. Those sites equate to nothing more than design bake-offs. Talk about spec work, those sites are nothing but.

[morea]

sorry, I forgot for a moment that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

Actually, those are called "model homes". My boss deals with them all the time. The difference is that the client doesn't go to the builder and say "here's what I want, custom make one for me and I'll let you know if I like it."

They have a selection to choose from, and may be able to make some basic alterations to it, but that's about it.

Sort of like how a portfolio works.

[lesliegraphics]

I'm not trying to change your mind Kool. I thought this was a design forum where one can discuss their thoughts, I'm only responding to what I am reading. If I insulted you I am sorry.

[Mynock]

You don't get it we're all done arguing. Let it go.

[typographics]

when fundamental debates like these arise, cant this forum turn on a loud siren to notify people? cant you guys shine a design symbol into the air for all to see? i always catch the last of these conversations :(

[lesliegraphics]

I get the impression I've made an enemy of you and your cohorts here on the forum. Oh well, any way, a model house sure it's what you said. But in fact there is such a thing called a spec house. Custom builders build them on their own without any home buyer involved. They simply build them and then turn around and sell them. Like I said they are built on speculation. The builder bankrolls the entire project and then puts the house on the market. He does not know if he will get his money out, profit, or actucally be at a loss in the end, it's all speculation on the market. It's really risky but some builders have made fortunes, while others, say smaller independent custom builders, have gone under. Have a great day!

[Mynock]

Haven't made an enemy, just don't need to beat a dead horse.

[morea]

I don't have cohorts. Or enemies, for that matter.

What I'm saying is that the home builder will eventually sell the home and get paid for it. It's a different story for designers, who typically go to all the trouble for the off chance that their design might be chosen over their peers. Regardless, this is a subject that a lot of people have very strong opinions about. In such circumstance, I think it's just best to agree to disagree.

[Kool]

Not an enemy, it's just that you made your point about 20 posts ago. Like I said we get it. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[lesliegraphics]

Mynock I get it. Please excuse me for my opinions but I thought I had the right to them, and I was simply responding to what you wrote. Am I not allow to respond or what?

[Kool]

Matthew, just look for any thread in the showcase that goes over 20 posts. Chances are some kind of controversy is going on LOL.

[morea]

of course you are entitled to your opinion, but as with any community, real or "virtual", we ask that you please familiarize yourself with the rules here.

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13650

As you can see, we have no tolerance for free work requests here. People who join the forum and ask for free work are banned. People who post contests are banned.

I am not saying that you are doing either of these things, but that should show you that we take this very seriously.

Arguing is not going to get you anywhere. Insulting people is also not going to get you very far here. We know how YOU feel, and now you know how WE feel. There's no need to continue debating the topic.

Let's get back on track here.

[reuber1]

Matthew, just look for any thread in the showcase that goes over 20 posts. Chances are some kind of controversy is going on LOL.I was about to say the same thing. My curiosity was piqued when I saw a thread that had 4 pages worth of posts for a phone book cover.

[typographics]

Matthew, just look for any thread in the showcase that goes over 20 posts. Chances are some kind of controversy is going on LOL.
lol. ya, but by the time i find it, the majority of the cat fight is over. its like walking up to a kid that just got the crap kicked out of him, and you wish you had been around to watch the fight. at least i can go back and read thru the posts. and um...oh ya...spec work sucks :)

matthew~

[GreenThumb]

Point well taken. Samples of one's work should be good enough.

Sadly, and to my frustration, they arent. Even after Crispin Porter + Bogusky- the agency that made Subservient Chicken for Burger King- had a LOT of success for them, they were still made to go through pitch processes for BK's Tv ads!

BK, Hormel, The Food Network, BASF are all examples of companies in the last few months that my friends at other agencies have tried pitching to competitively. Its not "design" that these companies are looking for-- its the best "IDEA". It makes complete sense- if I have a HUGE amount of media money riding on a project, I want to hear every idea I can.

Design competitions that require free work are COMPLETELY different scenarios from this, though. I dont like those at all. Printers do this all the time- we send out work orders and have printers bid on them and we select them by pricing and quality.

[EC]

Sadly, and to my frustration, they arent. Even after Crispin Porter + Bogusky- the agency that made Subservient Chicken for Burger King- had a LOT of success for them, they were still made to go through pitch processes for BK's Tv ads!

BK, Hormel, The Food Network, BASF are all examples of companies in the last few months that my friends at other agencies have tried pitching to competitively. Its not "design" that these companies are looking for-- its the best "IDEA". It makes complete sense- if I have a HUGE amount of media money riding on a project, I want to hear every idea I can.

Design competitions that require free work are COMPLETELY different scenarios from this, though. I dont like those at all. Printers do this all the time- we send out work orders and have printers bid on them and we select them by pricing and quality.

Ugh, I responded to this then the internet ate my post. Gggrr.

I just wanted to say that the Advertising Agency model is very different than my own business model. I have worked in advertising and indeed, making pitches is part of it. We're talking about something on a completely different scale though -- national/big-budget clients that will keep an entire staff in salary for a length of time.

The companies that choose to work with agencies rather than independents like myself do so because the agency brings to the table much much more resources than I could ever manage.

In turn, these companies KNOW that the ad agencies will cover their costs by marking up their services. Going with an agency will always be exponentially more expensive than going with me.

I have, however, beaten agencies in town to win bids -- but not because I pitched them. Honestly it's a burden the number of hours I spend in a week just submitting proposals.

[PrintDriver]

Printers doing bids isn't spec work. It's part of doing business. So is printing and sending promo samples of print processes. In the Print Industry this is called marketing.

[GreenThumb]

Printers doing bids isn't spec work. It's part of doing business. So is printing and sending promo samples of print processes. In the Print Industry this is called marketing.

To me, printers bidding competitively on price is the same as advertisers bidding on "ideas".

"Spec" work is a very vast and hard thing to comprehend. Its been given a bad rap because there are examples everywhere of intellectual property theft. In the professional world, there are iron clad clauses that make prospects shudder before they even attempt to "steal" ideas.

[PrintDriver]

Offering a price to do a print job is no different than offering a price to do a design. You still have competition.

It's when you ask me to provide a price AND a very large wide format sample made from your prepared file for FREE to go with that bid, then that print is spec work where I'm hoping to impress you with something beyond 'portfolio' samples - a costly piece of goods for which I may never see a return.

[DesignerScott]

^ ^ ^ ^
Bingo sums up the whole thread for me...
and I didn't even read past the first two posts =)

[steve-o]

I didn't read through this whole thread, so maybe what I'm about to say has already been talked about, but one of the biggest differences between a call for entries for a design annual like STEP or CA versus a design contest to produce original art is that the design annual contests do not require giving any rights to the magazines. It's simply for editorial purposes. The designer and/or the client still retains the rights to the work. This is a huge difference.

[GreenThumb]

I haven't read through the whole thread -- but is everybody involved in the competition being compensated in some way? I understand that advertising for trade is a legitimate benefit ... but typically in a call for entries situation, the designers have already been paid for their efforts by their clients.

Agreed!

[Rocketpig]

This thread makes my ass itch.