9-11 vs Katrina response

[Vikia]

Just an observation, but isn't it sad.

After 9-11, Ground Zero was hallowed ground and no stone was left unturned to find every victim or even a piece of a victim or personal item to identify and return to their loved ones for burial in the most expediant recovery effort utilizing every possible resource the Local, State and Federal agencies could muster.

After Katrina, bodies floated for over a month. Bodies are still under tons of rotting debris over 6 months later. Victims are left unidentified in the morgue while Local, State and Federal agencies fight over who will pay for DNA identification. There will never be a full accounting of the missing.

The Gulf region that was devastated by Katrina would have been better off to have been attacked by terrorists. At least then the powers that be would have been indignant enough to act as if it mattered.

[Logo-Mechanix]

In this area directly after 9-11 every state in the surrounding area sent people in to help. Police, firefighters even iron workers to cut through the steel. It was more of a state to state type of help than the federal government helping, the local state governments did alot more around here than the ones in the south did befor, during and after Katrina. Before Katrina almost everyone who coul got out, my big question would be why didn't the local government use busses at their disposal to evacuate the people who couldn't get out on their own.

[Vikia]

not really rehashing the finger pointing stuff like why weren't school buses used (city buses were used since they were owned by the city and air conditioned even though news orgs did not exactly remember to report that along side the schoolbus story.)

Just really pointing out that after all this time there are victims that are still unidentified but laying in the morgue because no one wants to pay for the DNA testing that will get them identified and back to their loved ones. Yet a finger found in the rubble at ground zero was given every possible test to get that person identified as soon as possible. No one even questioned who would pay for the tests.

Just very sad.

[Logo-Mechanix]

I just think it was sad that they were left there to begin with, everybody screwed up in that one and I feel for the families of the poor people who didn't make. It made me angry because we are so quick to help other countries and we crew it up when we have to help our own country. The response after 9-11 was incredible and the response to Katrina should have been at least as good.

[Neuro]

I heard something on NPR last night that was really interesting. It was basicly saying...What about Rita?! So many people have focused on Katrina that many of the victims of Rita have been completely brushed aside. They talked about how farm lands are completely trashed by salt water and how cattle herds from a single farmer are spread out all over the place. Obviously the focus of that report was on farming issues. I realize that there were many more human casualties from Katrina and that is exactly why it is getting more publicity. I just can't imgaine being a Rita victim and feeling like NO ONE cares. :(

[Vikia]

Good point Neuro.

Looking back to the late 20's and 30's Depression Era when struggling to make it back took Federal works to create jobs etc., why can't the levee's be rebuilt with those kinds of jobs.

If an entire city can be built out of nothing in the middle of a desert to build Hoover Dam...a Netherlands style levee can be built to protect New Orleans. The city and surrounding areas would prosper because of the support business that would be needed to sustain these kinds of jobs with housing and everything else. And I don't think it was a Haliburton that was in charge of Hoover Dam.

Well then again, Bush Dike?

[PrintDriver]

The whole natural disaster response here is nothing short of appalling and embarrassing.

Did anyone see the made for TV movie about what would happen if Yellowstone blew up ("Supervolcano", 2005)? I want a person like the woman in that movie in charge of FEMA. Or at least someone who doesn't go home and go to bed at the height of an emergency.

[EC]

It comes down to this. 9-11 had a clearly definable "bad guy", and we all love to hate the bad guys. More accurately, people love the opportunity to sort people into groups:

"they are the bad guys, therefore, we are the good guys."

After 9-11, it was encouraged that we think of ourselves as "US" and of those that attacked us as "THEM" (and with "them" -- every muslim on the planet). Some people considered that collective emotion "patriotic" ... but I think it evoked even more sinister feelings -- racism, false pride, anger, etc.

Quick, everybody buy a t-shirt.

Ask yourself this, because I'm asking it myself. I hung a flag on my door the week of September 11th. Why? Was it because I was proud of the fantastic job our country did in responding or to show my support for the victims familys? No, it was because I was pissed off at "them." I wanted to make it clear what group I was in.

When Katrina hit, were the victims the "THEM" (oh poor them, secretly sooooo glad it wasn't me) ... or are they, should they be ... the "US"?

What does it mean to be patriotic? I dunno, to me I think it SHOULD mean that we cherish our freedoms, our blessings, and that we'll stick together and take care of our own when push comes to shove. It shouldn't matter if the "them" is a threatening external force or an act of nature.

Seems like unless there's a reason to open up a can of whoop ass, people just aren't really all that interested in the collective "US". It makes me sad that there is so little coverage about the victims Katrina ... I'm pretty sure their problems haven't been swept away, and I still don't feel confident that any of the infrastructural and beurocratic problems have been solved ... yet I get this feeling we're all supposed to sort of just forget about it.

[Neuro]

Wow that was deep for a Saturday, EC! LOL!

I agree that people are not as supportive or rallied up to do something about the Katrina and Rita disasters. Unfortunately I think it's not only the government that needs to do something about this. I think the people as a whole need to put down their ipods, cheeseburgers and Razor phones to pick up a shovel to help rebuild. I think there was a good group of people that did that at the begining but I think that response has died and now it's back to living in their own little world. It really is ashame but then again it is typical American behavior. It really has a lot to do with why other country find Americans so self centered. Please don't get me wrong, I am just as guilty of this. I too tend to forget about what is around me. I really think people need to think about their priorities a little more and find something in them to do more to be there for their fellow man. It really would make this country and the rest of the world a better place.

Ok, back to shutting off my brain. It is the weekend after all.

[Vikia]

... yet I get this feeling we're all supposed to sort of just forget about it.

I get that same feeling. The recent White Wash House investigation sort of left out some glaring problems brushing over those at the top and placing all the blame on Brown. Now they feel they can just move on.

[PrintDriver]

yes, all of this administration's "investigations" leave a lot to be desired.

[Logo-Mechanix]

I get that same feeling. The recent White Wash House investigation sort of left out some glaring problems brushing over those at the top and placing all the blame on Brown. Now they feel they can just move on.

Isn't it great how they always find one guy to blame and then its, oh everthing is okay now, we got rid of him.

[EC]

Isn't it great how they always find one guy to blame and then its, oh everthing is okay now, we got rid of him.

It might be great, if more people would blame the RIGHT one guy. lol

[Logo-Mechanix]

I blame veryone even myself and my cat. LOL

[EC]

We all blame you and your cat. For everything.

[Neuro]

I am sure the cat had nothing to do with it!! FREE THE CAT!!

[Logo-Mechanix]

It was the cat I tell ya, the cat.

[AlexNJ210]

I think something that put a negative and standoffish attitude among americans was the racial contexts inevitably placed on the disaster. The footage of looting, the shoot out that happened with men shooting at rescue helicopters. Kanye West certainly did NOT help by fueling the whole racial connotation. That got me really mad about the whole thing. If its REALLY a disaster, then why the heck are people looting stores???!!! I mean come on, i remember seeing on the news two guys that were obviously poor walking WAIST deep in water with like a 60" flat screen tv over their heads that they just stole. Its a hurricane disaster and the first thing that comes to peoples minds in New Orleans is "hey lets steal everything cause everyone will be running, yea great idea!!!"...........please. THAT is a major reason why the help effort wasnt so strong. Another reason why 9-11 was such a different event is because no one saw it coming. All of a sudden BOOM, right in broad daylight on our nations economic capital buildings. I think its a bit different. With Katrina, we saw the hurricane coming for days and days, in my opinion, the idiots who stayed in the area to wait out the hurricane for fear their houses would get robbed deserved to be stranded. Thats part of the reason the disaster turned out so bad. Thousands ignored the evacuation calls and stayed in their homes. HELLOO you live in a hole in the ground below sea level, a small levy is not going to protect you from a MASSIVE hurricane!!!!! However i do agree that responses on a federal level were slow, and the surrounding states did not put forth a strong effort. I know, that on local levels, especially in my community, katrina help centers opened up very quickly to help send goods and clothes to the victims, so the country WAS responding. I think that people are always ready to point fingers in this country instead of taking responsability for themselves. Instead of just taking action and helping, people wait for SOMEONE ELSE to pick up the pieces. Not for nothing, the people in the tristate area of NY, NJ, and PA can be a very proactive people. When something goes bad we get involved, "we get each other's back". Thats another reason the response to 9-11 was so devoted. But honestly, i dont think the two disasters even compare. They are two completely different scenarios in two completely different parts of the country.

[PrintDriver]

A disaster is a disaster. The people who didn't want to leave their homes for fear of looting were right weren't they. Where was the National Guard. Oh wait - our National Guard is in Iraq. Where were the state police? Where were the local police. Where were the buses to take the poor out. Where was the relief effort the people were told was going to take 3 days and took much much longer. How long can you go without food and water up to your knees in filth? You're right. They saw it coming but the FEMA chief went home to bed that night rather than stay on watch. You can't tell me no one else was watching it happen either. But they have their scapegoat. Now they can wipe their collective hands while the N.O. area is still a mess.

I do have to say that the amount of scamming, squandering, downright thievery and malicious intent among a lot of the aid recipients has left a foul taste in my mouth. Relocatees up here have been caught on camera using relief funds to buy alcohol and lap dances at strip clubs while living on a military base. Disgusting. But they never show the good stories on the news. Where are the people who have made it back?

[Kool]

Couldn't have been GW's fault either, he was on vacation after all. You can't expect him to cut it short to go... you know lead or anything.

[Vikia]

With Katrina, we saw the hurricane coming for days and days, in my opinion, the idiots who stayed in the area to wait out the hurricane for fear their houses would get robbed deserved to be stranded.
So then Rita came and Houston had time to leave. All the evacuees were stuck on the interstate. All of the gas stations were running out of gas. The interstates became a parking lot. All of the hotels were full. All of the high school gymnasiums from Houston to Dallas were full. And that was just the people who had cars, money for hotels and gas and could leave. Not to mention the bus full of elderly that were evacuated and died as the bus burst into flames after an oxigen tank explosion. Oh wait a minute, at the last minute, Rita veered north and never hit Houston. But New Orleans should have reacted for sure. Oh wait a minute, at the last minute, Katrina veered east and hit Biloxi.

The point of my original post was really to compare the reaction time in identifying the dead. For 9-11 it was an all out effort to get every scrap of a person identified and back to their loved ones. For Katrina, they still lay in the morgue today. Not because their relatives did nothing to find them. Not because they did not provide DNA samples for identification. But because beaurocrats are pushing back from the responsibility of paying for the tests.

I think it is impossible to debate ALL the good and bad that happened during this disaster, but this one thing really bothers me. Why are these people so forgotten, even now?

[Vikia]

As for the looting, no, I don't condone or understand the switcch in people's mentality that allows them to justify stealing beyond survival needs.

My cousin's home in St Bernard Parrish was looted and I can certainly relate. But those are just things. My cousin and his family are grateful to be alive.

But to blame the entire community's woes on the misdeeds of a few is too wide a brush to paint. You turn your nose up at obvious criminal actions. That does not make ALL the stranded negligent. It just means that circumstances for them made evacuation not available or within reach.

[EC]

This is what I mean about media gatekeeping. If you watched Faux news during this time, you saw images of people looting and Bill O'Leilly devoting every episode to ranting about this issue. Why do you think that is? They had no other stories to cover during that time?

It's nothing but a distraction from the real issues, meant to perk up the "entitlement" hairs on the backs of conservative's necks.

When New York City has a blackout, you mean to tell me there's no looting? There are criminals in every large population, a disaster brings out the worst in them ... but what does that have to do with ANYTHING?

[Rocketpig]

Personally, I blame everybody. I blame Bush for putting that clownshoe as the head of FEMA and I blame him for being, well, Bush.

I blame pretty much everybody in the governmental levels in Louisiana and New Orleans. Their misappropriation of funds for the levees is nauseating.

And frankly, I think the country was slow to respond because New Orleans is poor. Sad but true. While we were horrified at the images being shown, our economic lives weren't really disturbed all that much so neither were we.

Add in the fact that there weren't any "bad guys" to blame and instead we had to blame ourselves for the squalor that New Orleans has become and it's not surprising that the country is trying to sweep the whole thing under the carpet.

I think it's amazing that Nagan is still the mayor and Blanco is still the governor. They're both incompetant crooks and should have been run out of office months ago.

[Rocketpig]

This is what I mean about media gatekeeping. If you watched Faux news during this time, you saw images of people looting and Bill O'Leilly devoting every episode to ranting about this issue. Why do you think that is? They had no other stories to cover during that time?

I just read a fabulous article in US News about how cable news is killing responsible journalism. I'll have to see if I can find a link to it.

Lordy, I hate Fox News. And I'm conservative. :D

[Vikia]

And the misrepresented news (spin).
... the shoot out that happened with men shooting at rescue helicopters.
Later it was discovered when they interviewed the people that they were shooting into the air, not at the helicopters, but to get the helicopters attention. It was dark and no one could see them on their roofs. They were trying to get rescued, but the helicopters did not see them.

I guess that didn't get reported on "Faux News" either.

[Vikia]

Add in the fact that there weren't any "bad guys" to blame and instead we had to blame ourselves for the squalor that New Orleans has become and it's not surprising that the country is trying to sweep the whole thing under the carpet.

We do indeed need to blame ourselves for putting incompetant fools in charge.

I think it's amazing that Nagan is still the mayor and Blanco is still the governor. They're both incompetant crooks and should have been run out of office months ago.

The incompetance clearly goes much higher and all should be run out of office.

[end rant]

[Rocketpig]

The incompetance clearly goes much higher and all should be run out of office.[end rant]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to get Bush out of office.

I'm just hoping that 2008 comes around quickly so I can actually be proud to vote Republican when I cast a vote for John McCain. I like that guy.

[EC]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to get Bush out of office.

I'm just hoping that 2008 comes around quickly so I can actually be proud to vote Republican when I cast a vote for John McCain. I like that guy.

Nothing wrong with being a conservative. This country needs a balance. Right now, we don't have that. All I can say is, damn I wish Bush hadn't run a sleazy campaign in 2000 -- I am sure McCain would have done a much better job.

[Vikia]

I'm just hoping that 2008 comes around quickly I agree with EC, nothing wrong with conservative balance at all. I am truly somewhere in the middle myself. But we don't have to wait for 2008 to limit the continued damage Bush is doing to America. Vote for a wiser Congress and the Senate this year...2006.

[Rocketpig]

Actually I'm registered as a Libertarian but tend to vote Republican (though I do swing toward certain Democratic candidates).

Let's just say that the Republican party hasn't been leaving me with a "warm & fuzzy feeling" the past 6 years.

I just wish the polarization between the two parties that has been transpiring since 1994 would ease off. Both parties are guilty of it; we used to have several moderates that weren't afraid to cross party lines on issues but those politicians are a real rarity nowadays.

The sad thing is those are the politicians I agree with the most.

[EC]

^ and for all of those reasons, I've seriously considered handing in my democrat card and registering as a libertarian myself. Can you still vote in the primaries if you do that though? That's really where votes count most.