Magazine Layout. HELP PLEASE!!!

[PureLife]

I know theres is a template/guide out there for printing magazine layouts. What I'm looking for is a guide on where to place which pages so that when I print my magazine, the back to back printing will line up the correct pages.

Any help finding something like this will be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks so much.

[Craig B]

The quick solution:

What is your overall page count?

If it's 24, your spreads will be 24/1 with 2/23 backing it, then 22/3 with 4/21 backing it, etc.

Your numbers will add up to your page count+1

Is that what you meant?

[Pixel8]

What I did (on the magazine currently printing behind me) is to lay out individual sheets in InDesign, making sure to tell it to use "Facing Pages" option. It is an 11x17 magazine, so when I lay it out, I'm looking at full 2-page spreads on 2 separate 8.5x11 sheets.

After I get finished with layout, I use the InBooklet feature and it will automatically paginate the whole thing. Pagemaker 6.5 used the same thing, but it was a plugin.

If you try to lay out your pages already paginated, you'll go nuts. Plus, you won't be able to add or subtract WHEN, not if, you are asked to do so.

Lay out individual sheets and let the program set up your spreads. Just watch out that graphics that cross the gutter get cut. With InDesign, it won't cut them up for you, so you've got to put half of a graphic on one page, and the other half on its neighbor, so it prints right.

Helpful?

[flutterby nut]

forgive my vagueness...there's a post on printing and prepress...i think it got made into a sticky...anyway, vikia posted a couple links to that thread with regard to signature and positioning of pages...very helpful...but danged if i know how to link the thread here...sorry 'bout that...

[Kool]

Just grab 1/4th the total number of pages peices of paper. Hold em together and fold em in half. Then go through them like a book and number the pages. Then when you take em apart you'll see exactly where to place each page.

[balou]

I used to draw them out at first:
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2688/untitled16oa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Craig B]

What I did (on the magazine currently printing behind me) is to lay out individual sheets in InDesign, making sure to tell it to use "Facing Pages" option. It is an 11x17 magazine, so when I lay it out, I'm looking at full 2-page spreads on 2 separate 8.5x11 sheets.

After I get finished with layout, I use the InBooklet feature and it will automatically paginate the whole thing.

Yup, InBooklet is helpful if you're using InDesign. If you paginate it yourself it can get pretty confusing and you may mess something up. Let the program do it for you.

[Pixel8]

Just grab 1/4th the total number of pages peices of paper. Hold em together and fold em in half. Then go through them like a book and number the pages. Then when you take em apart you'll see exactly where to place each page.

Are you guys SERIOUS???? How do you even manage a proper work flow like that??? Your employers simply must get you some decent layout software.

If you can't let the compy paginate for you, you must be in some third rate piece of software. How can you possibly be expected to create nice-looking spreads when your spreads are cut up onto pages 4 and 12?

OMG! :eek:

[Kool]

Are you guys SERIOUS???? How do you even manage a proper work flow like that??? Your employers simply must get you some decent layout software.

If you can't let the compy paginate for you, you must be in some third rate piece of software. How can you possibly be expected to create nice-looking spreads when your spreads are cut up onto pages 4 and 12?

OMG! :eek:

I'm not in a workflow nor do I have an employer. I was simply answering the guys question with a quick & dirty solution. I believe my answer was much more helpful than telling him to run out and buy all new software.

[Pixel8]

Get off it, Kool. I'm a professional designer and I work in a full-time work environment. I'm giving him the right solution, since he didn't post what software he's in. I'm not attacking you, so give the chip on your shoulder a rest, k?

What you're saying will work, but it won't work on a 50 page magazine, back to back deadlines, people changing stuff on you last minute.

Yes, I'm speaking harshly to you, man, but that's because you're taking personal offense to what I'm saying. Don't go there. Be a professional, even if you're in school.

[Kool]

Why did you quote me if you weren't talking to me?

[Pixel8]

Are you guys SERIOUS???? How do you even manage a proper work flow like that??? Your employers simply must get you some decent layout software.

If you can't let the compy paginate for you, you must be in some third rate piece of software. How can you possibly be expected to create nice-looking spreads when your spreads are cut up onto pages 4 and 12?

OMG! :eek:

Now I'm quoting me. NOTE: "You guys" Note: "your employers" Note: "How can you be expected to..."

I quoted you just as quick as I could have quoted someone else. I'm getting frustrated with you for taking it personally. I was talking to you, I was talking to everyone.

Your response was "Why are you attacking me? I'm just trying to help." I'm not attacking you. I am suggesting that the method you suggest will not work in most real-world work situations.

[Craig B]

Now I'm quoting me. NOTE: "You guys" Note: "your employers" Note: "How can you be expected to..."

I quoted you just as quick as I could have quoted someone else. I'm getting frustrated with you for taking it personally. I was talking to you, I was talking to everyone.

Your response was "Why are you attacking me? I'm just trying to help." I'm not attacking you. I am suggesting that the method you suggest will not work in most real-world work situations.

Do we know if this is a real-world situation? PureLife is in school at Andrews Univeristy in Michigan. Perhaps they're needing to quickly piece together a document that they printed out as single US sheets. My guess is this is not a real-world situation.

PureLife got their question answered. I don't see what the problem is. Letting the software handle printer's spreads is all good and grand but I'll still occasionally do rough mini-comps to accomodate gate folds, die cuts, half sheets, etc. to get a better understanding of how all the pages work together.

I don't do it for all projects, but occasionally.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there.

[D-Zine]

Kools solution does work in real world work situations. How do you think they figured it out before all this nice new software was out?

Righttt - Kools way and balou's way. I have done both and both work just fine.

[Pixel8]

Good answer, Craig. I do that too.

PureLife didn't specify much info there. I'm just getting miffed at Kool for taking it too personally. That's all.

[Vikia]

Are you guys SERIOUS???? How do you even manage a proper work flow like that??? Your employers simply must get you some decent layout software. Never hurts to understand the mechanics behind folding up a signature and manually paginating them. Why so aghast?

[Pixel8]

Aghast am I that either schoolteachers or employers should thusly handicap their pupils and workers. Should they provide them with adequate software, their workmanship would greatly improve. I am in defense of the worker, not against them.

[reuber1]

No more threads going south, please. It's Monday...let's wait until like, Neverday.

Balou, I pretty much used your method, but I've never worked on anything larger than 14 pages. I did a 14 page CD sleeve booklet insert, and that worked perfectly for me (too bad it printed like crap...no thanks to the school printer). I would definitely take advantage of that InDesign function, though.

[Pixel8]

Thanks Reuber1. It's Monday. I'm irritable. I've got things to do. Need more coffee. L8r.

[rickself]

Good god, testy today!

My top stripper takes every job we get that needs pagination, grabs some blank 8.5x5.5 paper and folds it to check MY pagination. There's nothing wrong with that. Spend a day or two in prepress and you'll find that double checking your layout will save money in plates, time, press time, even if you have to take a little time before hand. We put 50 jobs through our shop a week minimum and there's nothing like that folded up piece of paper to fall back on when somebody questions your layout.

Being educated in all phases (and age old ways) is not a bad thing.

[rickself]

...and really, pagination shouldn't be the designers problem, leave it to the printer.

[balou]

Thanks Reuber1. It's Monday. I'm irritable. I've got things to do. Need more coffee. L8r.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9871/coffeechillpill7wf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Satchel]

haha, finally found this thread - I just passed it up earlier cuz I dont know much about magazine layouts but I'm glad I got bored enough to check it - I always like to see someone freak out over nothing, especially picking fights with a supreme mod, it makes my day - thanks Pixel8, perfect way to wrap up the day! :)

[Mynock]

and you were worried about the other thread.

[morea]

why must people be so cranky at people who are not at fault for their problems?

Good God.

[reuber1]

morea, knock it OFF!!!!

























**unplugs sarcasm cable**

[PrintDriver]

LMFAO! I almost missed this one too.

The trouble these days is too much relying on software. It NEVER makes mistakes. Neither do the "full-time designers" who use it. Uh huh...

Hey Kool, when did you graduate anyway? Musta been something like oh, let's say, '79? '80? LOL!

[Neuro]

Never hurts to understand the mechanics behind folding up a signature and manually paginating them.

I feel that understanding what the computer is "doing for you" is something that is being lost. I worked for a commercial printer who had the top of the line software but they still had to us do the folding pagination. It was a way for us to better understand what we were doing. It was done before the computer was touched and then again as a blueline proof. This company dealt with big accounts and had NO problem with workflow. They felt better about double checking work on a million piece run, rather than rushing it and having to reprint it due to an error. I think it's important for students and others new to printing to understand the more hands on approach to things. There are still MANY print shops out there that can not afford the top of the line software. Many digital prepress operators that are in the trenches KNOW how to do the fold method.

[balou]

You don't toss a calculator to a first grader and say "this is how you do math."

Pixel needs to go read the "what do you guys do" thread. Many of us are "professional designers working in a full-time environment." Ick. I don't need to defend myself.

[Kool]

PD I graduated in 1980, started in the printing industry in 89 :D

Anybody know how to mockup a perfect bound book?

I don't know if there is a formula for pagination of perfect bound (all pages glued and bound on the left edge like a book) or not but a simple way to make a mock up to guide your layout is: (Note this is for 8 page signatures. The big shops will run 16 and even 32 page sigs but this just means they will group the 8 pages sigs.)

Take your total number of pages, lets say 100 and divide it by 8 which is 12.5. This is the total number of sigs you will have to lay out and run.

Then count out 13 sheets of regular old 8.5 x 11 paper. Take each sheet and fold it in half from top to bottom. Then fold it again from left to right.

Once you have all of your sheets folded stack the 1/4 size folded sheets on top of each other with the open sides facing the right and the bottom.

I usually clip the left sides together with one of those butterfly clip thingies. You now have basically a little book except it's attached at the top as well as the left side.

Now go through and number each page from 1 to 100. When you unfold them it will show you exactly how to lay it out.

[EC]

PD I graduated in 1980, started in the printing industry in 89 :D

Anybody know how to mockup a perfect bound book?

I don't know if there is a formula for pagination of perfect bound (all pages glued and bound on the left edge like a book) or not but a simple way to make a mock up to guide your layout is: (Note this is for 8 page signatures. The big shops will run 16 and even 32 page sigs but this just means they will group the 8 pages sigs.)

Take your total number of pages, lets say 100 and divide it by 4 which is 25. This is the total number of sigs you will have to lay out and run.

Then count out 25 sheets of regular old 8.5 x 11 paper. Take each sheet and fold it in half from top to bottom. Then fold it again from left to right.

Once you have all of your sheets folded stack the 1/4 size folded sheets on top of each other with the open sides facing the right and the bottom.

I usually clip the left sides together with one of those butterfly clip thingies. You now have basically a little book except it's attached at the top as well as the left side.

Now go through and number each page from 1 to 100. When you unfold them it will show you exactly how to lay it out.

That description makes me want to cut random holes in paper and make pretty snowflake chains.








That explains why I don't get hired to design magazines, huh.

[twogun]

im with you kool, you cant beat a good ol fashioned folded paper make up copy! if nothing else its handy to check the software has got it right.......secondly i found them really handy to shove in the production managers face when accused of incorrect imposition.

[thesupe87]

I design magazines full time, using Adobe InDesign. I usually crank out 1-2 (16-42 pagers) a week. I love the insert special character -> auto page number - option. You can use that, lay it out using guides on one spread, and then copy and paste in place on the rest of the spreads. I used to number pages manually before I knew about this, and that was a freakin nightmare. I lay out mags in spreads, the cover is the top right, and then page one is the page below it and slightly to the left. Page 3 is directly below page one, on the right-hand column.

...........| cover|

|page 2|page 3|

.....
.... more pages
.....
|p28BC|


get it? Let the printer do the rest, that's what you're paying them up the ass for. :)

have fun

[Pixel8]

OK...I started this rabbit-hole rant. Guess I'll end it.

Yo Kool! I am not attacking you or anybody else here or making you defend yourselves or any of that.

My post was TRYING to say that shops ought to take care of their people. That's all. See, I am on you guy's side. I don't want to write that as a disclaimer.

When you responded, I felt you were taking undue offense to my post. It made me angry and I felt I was being forced to hedge my comments with language designed not to cause offense. Since I interpreted your reply as taking what I felt to be undue offense, I decided to rebuke you for it and give you something to be offended at.

My intent was that you would not be so quick to take offense to a post or take personally what I intended to be general. I responded by taking offense with you. That is not an appropriate response on my part.

I must, however, stand by my point: please do not take personal offense when I am speaking of a professional consideration. Most of the other posts here have dealt with a professional debate, and I think they are well-founded, well-argued, and deserve an honest answer.

I was offended with Kool and responded likewise. For that, I am sorry.

But this makes the second time I have been involved in a long debate over ruffled feathers and hurt feelings when what I intended was a professional conversation about the topic at hand.

Either I am not communicating clearly enough, or folks are being too quick to take offense.

[PrintDriver]

If you quote someone you are taking issue with what they personally said. Had you not quoted Kool, he may not have been offended (if he even was to begin with).

Being a full-time graphic designer does not make you a prepress expert. Kool is a prepress expert. As a professional, you should have appreciated his knowledge for what it is - a prepress trick to get it right the first time without relying on software, not gone off on what an employer should or should not have for their employees. Having the latest greatest update is not always the best thing. There is usually about a month lag before printers get truly up to speed on new softs and those that submit files the day after the wares come out are the ones we practice on... :D

And designers still find ways to make something not rip even after months of testing.

Just because a designer can draw it, doesn't mean we can print it the way it was drawn, even with the most up to date softs.

[twogun]

nice one supe, my opinion exactly. i run my own business full time GD, i dont have time to fart about with imposition, i too put a couple of mags together each month (amongst tons of other work) i work in indesign as you have illustrated, my printer get the ID file and the rest is his problem.

be careful!!!! not all printers and pre press guys work the same way, what will suit one wont suit the other, this way they feel special in the knowledge that you are letting them work thier own speacial way!!!

[SapphireCat]

That's why I'm glad that I work just two cubicles away from the prepress guy who can tell me the right imposition! All I generally have to worry about when designing my two magazines is to make sure to end up with a page count that works as a multiple of 8. My magazines only use limited color, so if I need to know which pages are available for color, all I have to do is holler around the corner. I let them do all the folding and figuring for me. :D

I don't set the imposition manually in any case. I always supply a PDF file and then we drop it into ApogeeX, tell it which imposition template to use (that's where I have to ask them which one) and off it goes.

It's handy to be a graphic designer in a prepress house.