Font Legalities

[gdzyn]

I work for a retail store online that personalizes products from many different vendors. Each vendor offers many different types of fonts. If we do not have a font that they offer or they don't give us the font(s), we will purchase the font(s). These fonts are strictly for viewing on the web, not for print. Are we obligated to purchase the fonts? or should the vendors (legally) supply us with them since we are not using them for printing purposes? Is there any documentation on this topic? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[The Lurker]

I'm curious about this myself.

If the original font designer were to roll up on you clutching an empty coke bottle as a weapon, couldn't you just like, hightail it online and buy the typeface really quick. clearing yourself of any legal type stuff.

<-- too pretty for prison.

[PrintDriver]

I'm not sure what the question is here.

Are you talking about people sending you stuff that's been designed that you imprint on 'trinkets' or are you talking about web-hosting several different companies using many different fonts online?

[urstwile]

I'm confused by the post as well. Is the situation similar to where you send a job for output to a printer? In that case, I think it's still considered okay to send along the fonts needed to complete the job.

A little more clarity on the post would be very helpful. :)

[gdzyn]

Vendors will usually supply us with TTFs that we upload to a server for the customer to preview their personalization. Sometimes the vendor refuses to give us the TTFs so we in turn are forced to buy them. Are the vendors allowed to deny us TTFs? even though we buy them ourselves?

[PrintDriver]

Font licensing depends on the license that comes with the font. err...yeah.

I mean, most licenses say a download can be used on so many machines BUT you can't send it to the printer unless that printer also holds his own license to the font. Since most printers have most of the hard core fonts this usually isn't a problem. Where it does become a problem is if the client has used a font from one foundry and you go buy one from a different foundry and they don't match. Or if the client used an old version and you buy the newest. You need to communicate this to your client.

[panzer]

so PD i work in a printers sometimes we get some work and they give us the fonts on a cd or something along with the rest of the work etc (as you know quark will collect them for output) Now if we havent got these fonts on our machine ? what legality have we to do this persons work ?
can we just do the work as long as we dump the fonts straight after ?? or are we supposed to buy these fonts as well
Fonts legality always confuses me :(

[urstwile]

It might be worth checking out how MyFonts.com does it. They have a tool on there wherein you can preview how a font will look before you buy it, typing in sample text. This sounds similar to the issue described by the poster.

I'm doubting that MyFonts has enough simoleans to buy every font their search comes up with, they're more of a broker than a vendor, in my opinion, but it might be they have a different permissions thing going with the different vendors of the fonts. ? Perhaps you could work something like this with your vendors.

[flolo127]

I have worked for companies that have a huge font library which i was given to put on my personal computer to do work at home.

My question is, now that i am doing freelance on the side, do i have to get rid of all of them and start purchasing? Fonts alone could put a start up company in the hole. For instance, one company i am helping out wanted me to figure out a font that someone had used for their creative. Once i was able to do that, they asked me if i would send them that font....its the helvetica family..i have it, but am conflicted to send it or tell them they need to purchase it? Help, i don't want to get myself into any trouble!!!:confused:

thanks in advance.

[doubting_thomas]

They need to buy it for themselves, otherwise you could get into trouble.

[hewligan]

so PD i work in a printers sometimes we get some work and they give us the fonts on a cd or something along with the rest of the work etc (as you know quark will collect them for output) Now if we havent got these fonts on our machine ? what legality have we to do this persons work ?
can we just do the work as long as we dump the fonts straight after ?? or are we supposed to buy these fonts as well
Fonts legality always confuses me :(

Well, as PD said, font licenses vary. For example, from the Adobe license agreement:

14.7.3 You may take a copy of the font(s) you have used for a particular file to a commercial printer or other service bureau, and such service bureau may use the font(s) to process your file, provided such service bureau has a valid license to use that particular font software.

Which means that you can only use the fonts supplied by the client if you have bought those fonts yourself. Otherwise, you can't use them - even to output that client's job.

That's a pretty typical font license.

[Virgo Nightingale]

I understand the point of the font licensing - foundries want people who use their fonts to pay for them. But if my printer is supposed to have purchased every font needed for a project I send their way, then why do programs like Quark and ID collect them for you to give to your printer for free? Seems like an easy way for a printer to collect every font on the planet without spending a dime (and actually making a few in the process).

[hewligan]

Well, the idea is that the printer has a license for the font, but may not have it installed/activated on that particular computer. So, you send them your fonts with the job, and they just use those rather than hunting down and activating their own copies for every font in your job. It's about convenience.

Of course, the reality is that almost no printer can actually work like this. There's no way they will actually have a license for every font their clients send them. I would imagine there are very, very few printers in the world who are consistently able to follow the letter of the font licensing agreements.

So, they either have to just use the fonts they are supplied, or we all start designing everything in Helvetica.

Fortunately, the shift to pdf workflows makes this less of an issue. In that case, you don't need to send the printer any fonts. Unfortunately, pdf workflows don't work for everyone.

[SurfPark]

Sometimes I have to do a Preflight to the printer, and it includes the fonts. I assume that the printer has most of the basic fonts I use. I can't check every single font they officially own to the ones I have. I think its very hard to monitor this activity at all times, espcially when you're dealing with multiple printing companies.

[Deimodius]

Does it make a difference if you've converted the text to outlines before sedning the file?

[budafist]

Deimodius, it's a great idea to convert text to outlines when sending open files to print. Then you don't need to send the fonts.

Keep in mind it converting text to outlines will increse the file size.

Be sure you don't save over your original in case you need to make copy changes!

[Virgo Nightingale]

^^Won't cover your butt in a legal matter though. Unless you alter the shapes of the letters, it's still a licensed font.

[hewligan]

Actually, it will cover your butt in some legal circumstances.

You can't have a copyright on the shape of a font. You can have a copyright on software, which includes the software that is a font file. So, if you have converted a font to outlines, you no longer have to supply the font file and therefore there is no copyright violation.

Copyright law is weird.

[ankore]

Actually, it will cover your butt in some legal circumstances.

You can't have a copyright on the shape of a font. You can have a copyright on software, which includes the software that is a font file. So, if you have converted a font to outlines, you no longer have to supply the font file and therefore there is no copyright violation.

Copyright law is weird.

This is very interesting do you have any kind of documentation or any source for where you got this info.

Also I've been told that once you alter the font it is ok to use, does simply streching it qualify as altered.
thanks

[budafist]

This is very interesting do you have any kind of documentation or any source for where you got this info.

Also I've been told that once you alter the font it is ok to use, does simply streching it qualify as altered.
thanks

Fonts are ok to use whether you stretch them or not. For the sake of aesthetics, please do not stretch fonts unless you know what you are doing. It is usually not ok to stretch text just to fill in a gap. It is not pretty!

[doubting_thomas]

I see dead threads. Walking around like regular threads.

/whispers

They don't know they're dead.

[budafist]

Spooky!

[hewligan]

Typefaces and copyright law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typeface#Legal_aspects

And, no stretching the font makes no difference. If typefaces were copyrightable, then you would have a derived work. Since they're not, and it's actually the software that produces the font that is copyrighted, stretching the font makes no difference. This is simply a function of the font software.

Copyright law is still weird.

[Blazer]

I read through the first few pages and became more confused that I originally was...I think? :) Should this be started in a new thread or live on through this one?

Okay, isn't it kind of crazy to expect a printer to have a license for every font out there? Just for the off-chance a job might come in with ___ font? How do printer's keep up?

I recently bought Archer (along with a couple from Veer and another from typography.com) - if I sent a native InD file to my printer and they don't have that font, would they probably refuse me? Or look into getting a license? Doesn't that get spendy for them? Did I interpret anything wrong and am seeing this backwards?

For my freelance work I convert to outlines/make a pdf to send to the printer - I thought I was safe this way - am I not? (I read my Archer terms and believe it is okay to send to print as long as the printer is the end user and only used to print) For my in-house job, I was looking to purchase some new fonts for our bi-monthly magazine which we hand over in native InD - would my printer have to get licenses for these fonts if they don't already have them?

I think I just exceeded the allowed number of questions in one post. If anyone took the time to read and would like to answer at least one of these, I'd appreciate it!

[Riefnu]

I recently finished 6 months non-design working for a VERY large company. They not only own several fonts, but also religiously defend their ownership of the fonts. You can't even use the font printed on their pens.

[budafist]

I recently finished 6 months non-design working for a VERY large company. They not only own several fonts, but also religiously defend their ownership of the fonts. You can't even use the font printed on their pens.

Do you mean they own the license for several fonts or you mean the had several fonts made just for their company?

I've never worked for a company that has their own personal fonts. That would be cool I think. As long as the fonts were lovely though. ;)

[urstwile]

It's not unusual for large corporations to have their own fonts. Apple had Apple Garamond, IBM had IBM Bodoni Antiqua, I believe Siemens had their own version of Frutiger, and AT&T has (or had, not sure if they still use this in their identity) their own version of Garamond as well. These are generally fonts that are modified versions of well known or classic typefaces, and are used throughout their branding materials, with very specific graphic style guidelines.

[furiouSPEED]

Wasn't it a benefit for that corporations if public use their font or identity? it helps their product to be more publicly recognizable.;)

[urstwile]

There's a difference between use and recognition, however. Use means that you, as a small business owner, can get a hold of the AT&T Garamond font, and use it to advertise your business making fly swatters. AT&T's take on this? Not so much. They bought the font, they get to use it for their materials, and their materials only, much like their logo is theirs alone as well. Which leads to...recognition of their brand.

Recognition means that you can see a font, or see a font combined with a general graphic identity, and people immediately know they're looking at a product advertised by AT&T. There's a huge amount of difference.

[Riefnu]

@buda They had the fonts made for them specially. Even the font used to type their name on the pens.



@furious urst is talking about things like Coka Cola has their own font. NO ONE can use the Coke Cola font. They'd sue to hell out of you, freeze over hell, and sue you again. However some cd with 10000 fonts on it that you paid to get is fine so long as you paid to get the CD.

[furiouSPEED]

This make me wonder and wanted to say the more people use AT&T identity, wouldn't it mean benefits for AT&T? Public will recognize AT&T and their product more.

I didn't say that I am using fonts belong to somebody. :)

[urstwile]

No, I didn't think you were saying that. But what I'm saying is that if everyone uses AT&T's font, it's no longer their identity, is it? It's only their identity font if they're the only ones using it. For others to use it means their identity is diluted, and not made stronger.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. It's been known to happen. :)

[furiouSPEED]

I never used to go straight on writing, unless if I have to. :)