Sh*t hits the fan here....yet again. [Archive]

D-Frag

04-13-2006, 05:43 PM

Riots to ensue im sure.... we just had 100,000+ people march through our streets twice in two weeks to stop this bill.....im speechless.

Senate OKs arrests of immigrant trespassers
Bill sent to governor

Casey Newton
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 13, 2006 12:00 AM

State lawmakers voted Wednesday to allow the arrest and prosecution of undocumented immigrants under Arizona's trespassing law, saying the move would deter immigrants from entering the country illegally.

The House and Senate gave final approval to Senate Bill 1157 and sent it to the governor, just two days after undocumented immigrants joined thousands of supporters at the Capitol seeking recognition of their contributions to American society.

The bill won passage after sponsors agreed to charge first offenders with a misdemeanor, not a felony as the bill had originally been written.

"This is common-sense legislation," said Rep. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, shortly before the House voted 33-27 to pass the bill. "It's about time we started standing up for the legal residents, the legal citizens of the United States and enforce our laws (and) protect our neighborhoods."

Gov. Janet Napolitano has hinted that she will veto measures that criminalize undocumented immigrants' presence in the United States. On Wednesday, she criticized a proposed federal measure.

"To convert 11 million people into felons automatically, I think, is not wise," Napolitano said, referring to a U.S. House of Representatives bill similar to the original version of SB 1157. "There should be felonies associated with illegal immigration, but they should be focused on the people who are making money off of this human misery: the human traffickers, the smugglers, the money launderers that are involved in this. Those folks really deserve the full brunt of the law."

Even if the governor signs the measure, it faces an uncertain future. Its constitutionality has been called into question, and at least one group of Latino advocates has promised to challenge the measure if it becomes law. The group, the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, has noted that a state judge last year rejected a similar attempt to arrest undocumented immigrants as trespassers in New Hampshire.

In that case, the court dismissed charges against the eight Latino immigrants and ruled that immigration enforcement is the sole domain of the federal government.

Key provisions of the Arizona bill would:

• Make it a Class 1 misdemeanor for immigrants to enter Arizona illegally. After the first offense, undocumented immigrants could be charged with felonies.

• Empower local law enforcement officials to question the immigration status of anyone they have lawfully detained.

• Establish a fingerprint database for those charged under the new law, which supporters say would help in tracking human smugglers and drug dealers.

Napolitano could act on the bill as soon as today.

Police officials' view
The Governor's Office would not comment on the bill directly Wednesday but released 28 pages of letters from law enforcement officials asking her to veto it.

Pima County Attorney Barbara LaWall said the bill would "unconscionably drain significant resources needed to protect public safety."

"Making prosecution of trespassing cases a higher priority than the prosecution of serious, violent crimes that are directly impacting victims is a serious mistake," LaWall wrote to the governor.

Pearce countered by saying that police officers ask him "every day" to pass a bill like SB 1157.

During floor debate, Sen. Ron Gould, R-Lake Havasu, said police in his district are "waiting with bated breath to enforce it."

Six Republicans voted against the measure anyway, saying its provisions would be difficult to implement.

"I think it's totally unworkable," said Sen. Carolyn Allen, R-Scottsdale, who called the bill a "feel good" measure.

Dale Norris, director of the 7,000-member Arizona Police Association, agreed.

"You've now just created half a million criminals in the state," said Norris, whose membership includes about 2,000 Border Patrol agents. "Where are the officers going to come from to enforce that law? Because if my officer is now spending an hour, two hours, three hours putting that person in jail, who replaces him when a citizen needs help?"

Political dimension
Critics dismissed the Legislature's move as an election-year bid to make Napolitano look weak on immigration issues.

"I think it's easily discernible as political showboating," said Alfredo Gutierrez, a former lawmaker who helped organized this week's march.

If Napolitano vetoes the bill, it could cost her support from the strong majority of Arizonans clamoring for more secure borders. At the same time, it might help her with the Hispanic voters she alienated when she came out in support of placing National Guard troops at the border.

As written originally, the bill would have made entering the country illegally a felony on the first offense, a provision that helped spur more than 100,000 people to march on the Capitol in protest on Monday.

The bill's sponsor in the Senate, Paradise Valley Republican Barbara Leff, later agreed to make the first offense a misdemeanor to help win enough votes for the bill to pass.

Even in its current state, the bill's passage would have important symbolic value, a majority of lawmakers said.

"This continues to send an important message to Congress that we want something done," said Rep. Mark Anderson, R-Mesa.

Rep. Steve Gallardo, D-Phoenix, disagreed.

"It is a piecemeal approach that sends the wrong message to our Hispanic community," Gallardo wrote in a letter protesting the final version of the bill. "We need border security, employer sanctions and a guest-worker program. This bill does not address any of these pressing issues."

Jeizzavelle

04-13-2006, 06:10 PM

Drorain

04-13-2006, 06:23 PM

It's not my place to comment on the state policy because I don't live there, but in Massachusetts they were trying to get in-state tution costs for illegal immigrants. The number of people recieving the subsidized tution would have been only 400 people, but you know what...thats money that could go to 400 citizens (citizen: legal residents of the sovereign nation of the United States of America.)

Even in this Bluest of the blue states people called their state reps to stop such a stupid law from passing.

I love immigration, my great grandparents came here from greece, but you know what they came legally through Ellis Island...They got to see the Statue of Liberty, a symbol that ingrained in their hearts what this nation represented. They also proudly learned English to assimilate into the culture, they worked their arse off to get somewhere...they paid taxes, became citizens, and voted...they had pride in the country they came to, and were willing to die for it in the wars of the last century.

I as a citizen will vote for policy that expands the immigration program, but also punishes those who are here illegally. Many people stand with me on this, and like I said in previous posts this is not an issue of racism...this is an issue of national soveriegnty and laws. I know the people already here aren't going to disappear, and I don't want them too...but the wide open gate in the back needs to be shut, everyone needs to come through the front door. The people already here need to also get federal minimum wage, a chance on paying for health care, and like every other immigrant that comes here legally they need to pay their taxes. The stooges that hired ilegal aliens should also be forced to pay retroactively for a years wages for each employee, that way there is no payoff for this modern day slave labor.

Thank and good night

D-Frag

04-13-2006, 06:28 PM

couldnt of said it better myself Dro!

I think its funny that people are marching down the streets saying things like "We are not criminals" well actually, if you came here illegally, yes you are. just like I have been in trouble with the law I had to do my time, and pay my fines...etc.

My grandparents came here from Germany and Italy, both through ellis island also, and both had to learn English to even survive. There was no marketing to "Germans" or "Italians" you didn't see billboards in other languages.

Although I don't agree with the bill, because making half the state wanted for criminal measures is a little absurd, they do need to do something about all of this. Its one big mess

Jeizzavelle

04-13-2006, 06:28 PM

I agree. I like the part about closing tha back gate. I didn't know how to word it well enough so I ranted about something I see as related if not more important. I hate the fact that we know they are coming in and are here, working and NOW we get this big wild hair and want to throw them all out. Why not help them to get citizenship and make it so that they CAN come through the front door and there is no back gate. Why get mad that the cow got out of the barn when you held the door open?

The_Black_Knight

04-13-2006, 06:42 PM

I have to agree with Drorain and D-Frag on this one (and I usually don't agree with them on politics at all).

And is anyone else made ill by the "Newspeak" trend of calling illegal aliens "undocumented workers?" Sorry, but they're not from here (hence the word "alien"), and they're here ILLEGALLY (hence the word "illegal").

Even though a large majority of people want real immigration reform (note: not this amnesty crap that most of the politicians are pushing for), the politicians are determined to not listen. The Democrats think they can corner the Latino vote, and the Republicans want cheap labor for business. They can all go to hell, as far as I'm concerned. I've voted Libertarian when I can in the last couple of local elections, and I think I'll be doing the same thing for every election that comes up in the future. Heck, I think I'll start voting for the marijuana legalization candidates over any of these idiots, and I don't even smoke the stuff.

It really, really burns me up to see our elected representatives listening to a bunch of LAWBREAKING, NON-TAX-PAYING, NON-VOTING, NON-CITIZENS over the people who are here legally and elected these dumbasses to office in the first place.

And by the way, flying a MEXICAN flag while marching for your (nonexistent) rights will not help AMERICANS sympathize with you at all.

Sorry about the rant. I think I need a drink.

Drorain

04-13-2006, 06:46 PM

Navian

04-13-2006, 06:54 PM

I think that if they want to be here, then they can go register as a citizen, to be here.

Do it legally.

To be honest, I'm tired of people actualy knowing about the law, and then breaking the law. It isnt hard to follow them. This includes traffic laws.

Bottom line if you cant follow the rules or laws, then you deserve the ticket/repo and/or the arrest/deportation. Too many things are screwed up in this country as it is with this crap going on. If you come in to this country from any other country (or leave too), guess what you need?

A passport!

Just my 2¢.

The_Black_Knight

04-13-2006, 06:57 PM

thats funny knight, see I'ma right wing nutjob, and I think dfrag would say he's quite the oppisite...fact is both parties benifit from illegals, but all us reg. americans get screwed in the process.

I like libetarian party for many things as well, but I'm still more of a conservativeI guess in many ways I'm a "moderate." I'm conservative in the sense that the Constitution should be read "as is," and libertarian in the sense that the presence of government should be felt as little as possible, as long as national security is maintained in the process. I hate voting, because I know that there are no politicians that believe the same thing, but I can't not vote because I feel it's one of my duties as an American citizen.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Sigh.

Drorain

04-13-2006, 06:58 PM

you should hear what the immigration laws are going into mexico...they crawl up your ass, they're laws are more like what our laws should be haha, thats real irony

reuber1

04-13-2006, 07:36 PM

"It's about time native americans took back this country, no not actual native americans, you know, white people."

http://www.buffalobeast.com/96/immigration.htm

ekosix

04-14-2006, 01:47 AM

Whether you are for or against tougher immigration policies, there is one thing I don't understand.

Protesters are marching through the city streets, waving the Mexican flag.......to protest cracking down on people escaping Mexico.
How does that work exactly?

danedawg99

04-14-2006, 07:08 AM

orkaknos12

04-14-2006, 07:39 AM

Ahh colonialism is stil alive and well. To all the people who think criminalizing 11 million people (and actually enforcing the law) is a rational course of action - check your income tax rates for your state in a few years and see if you still like it. Another bureaucratic witch hunt brought to you by uncle sam.

-Jon

Jimeda Fork

04-14-2006, 01:13 PM

I thought I would add fuel to the fire. I got this in an email the other day:

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

14. I don't expect to have myself or my family checked or vaccinated against any communicable diseases.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that President Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

Sincerely,

David M. Bresnahan

jimking

04-14-2006, 01:20 PM

you should hear what the immigration laws are going into mexico...they crawl up your ass, they're laws are more like what our laws should be haha, thats real irony
That's true. Mexico deports more illegals than the US does. It's hard for a nonmexican to become a citizen and when they do they can be deported anytime anyway. An American citizen can not buy property in mexico, but has to go through a proxy. Less than 40% of convicted illegal immigrant felons are deported from the US.

Rocketpig

04-14-2006, 04:17 PM

That's true. Mexico deports more illegals than the US does. It's hard for a nonmexican to become a citizen and when they do they can be deported anytime anyway. An American citizen can not buy property in mexico, but has to go through a proxy. Less than 40% of convicted illegal immigrant felons are deported from the US.

And obviously those policies are working quite well for Mexico. :p

Who here wants to pick cabbage for 3 dollars an hour?

Anyone?

Anyone?

...

carter the artist

04-14-2006, 04:20 PM

the funny thing about legal immigration is that it's so hard to come here legally. One of my friends is Canadian, and it took her the better part of two years to be able to come here legally and be with her husband and go to school. She still can't work legally. So while, I'm all about people cominghere legally, as opposed to illegally, we need to make the legal hoops a little easier to jump thru and the benefits for illegals smaller.

You know the thing is that it's an honor, a privilege, etc... to be an american citizen. I don't believe it's any harder than a college degree, serving in the armed forces, etc.. and yet those last two I've done. What do they want? a multiple choice test and a week long english course to be considered a citizen?

No offense, but there is a reason why we have these rules.

jimking

04-14-2006, 04:38 PM

It just so happens, my uncle emailed me this article. He's been for married 45 years to a loving wife from El Salvadore.

*

"Jim, while certainly not fair and balanced by any means and many would consider this "anti-Hispanic" rhetoric.*
It*makes me a bit uncomfortable.
*
Sadly it contains*too many truths to just be cast aside as more "hate mail"

*

*MEXICO’S WAR ON AMERICA

*

By Frosty Wooldridge

March 20, 2006

*

In 1836, legends Davy Crockett, Jim Bowie and William Travis, along with 180 fearless men, fought Santa Anna’s two thousand Mexican troops at the Alamo in San Antonio, Texas. No contest! Santa Anna killed every last one of those brave men. Six weeks later, with a cry of “Remember the Alamo”, Texans beat back the Mexican army and established Texas as part of the United States of America.**

Today, Mexico’s declaration of war on America moves with quickening speed. Their modern day general known as President Vicente Fox is not content with retaking Texas. He invades all American states.**

Many of you watch the History Channel with WWII footage showing Germans and their tanks charging into Poland. You watched their tanks crush the French.

*Did any of you watch the 100,000 illegal Mexicans and others storm Chicago, Illinois March 10, 2006? How many Mexican insurgents stand on American soil? At last count, in excess of 9,000,000 illegal Mexicans!!!!! It’s the largest invasion force without firing a shot EVER on American soil.**

This invasion is encouraged, abetted and organized by the Mexican state and supported by all citizens in Mexican society. Fox provides his ‘troops’ with maps, water, provisions and aid to invade America’s border.

*What are the desires of Mexico?.....Lawrence Auster, in his “The Second Mexican War” February 17, 2006, wrote,

“In orchestrating this war on America, the Mexican state represents the desires of the Mexican people as a whole:*Political revanchism—to regain control of the territories lost to the U.S. in 1848, thus avenging themselves for the humiliation they feel they suffered at our hands for the last century and a half; In effect, Mexico is colonizing the United States. This is "Cultural Imperialism—to expand the Mexican culture and Spanish language into North America. They destroy English as America’s language.* 'Economic Parasitism"—to maintain and increase the flow of $20 billion dollars that Mexicans in the U.S. send back to their relatives at home every year, a major factor keeping the chronically troubled Mexican economy afloat and the corrupt Mexican system cocooned its status quo.” They use us against ourselves to benefit themselves.

*

Americans watch a peaceful invasion and the most profound colonization in modern history. Carlos de Mola for Mexico’s Excelsior Newspaper said, “You cannot give me a similar example of such a large migratory wave of an ant-like multitude, stubborn, unarmed and carried on in the face of the most powerful and best-armed nation on earth…it is slowly returning the southwestern U.S. to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot nor requiring the least diplomatic action, by means of a steady, spontaneous and uninterrupted occupation.”

*What you’re watching—and most Americans only keep watching without a whimper—the takeover of America by a foreign country by colonization.**

One of Fox’s cabinet officers, Juan Hernandez said, “The Mexican population is 100 million and 23 million who live in the United States.”**

Heather MacDonald, in the City Journal, Fall 2005, wrote, “Mexico’s five-year development plan in 1995 announced that the ‘Mexican nation extends its border into the United States. The government would strengthen solidarity programs with the Mexican communities abroad by emphasizing their Mexican roots, and supporting literacy programs in Spanish and teaching of the history, values and traditions of Mexico to those Mexicans living in the United States. We are betting the Mexican population in the U.S. will think Mexico first.’”

*Not only are they invading America in numbers and language, they financially bleed Americans of jobs, depress wages and send money to Mexico. In time, they will be able to deny authority of American law because they will vote against American laws and/or change them to fit their purposes.

*A simple look at what happened in Chicago a week ago portends violent confrontations in the future. We allow the complete surrender of U.S sovereignty over our immigration policy. Fox loves it as his ‘insurgents’ grow by three million annually on U.S. soil. (source: Time Magazine, September 20, 2004, America’s Broken Borders)

*Auster wrote, “Hitler pursed ‘Anschluss’, the joining together of the Germans in Austria with the Germans in Germany leading the official annexation of Austria to Germany. Mexico’s equivalent is ‘acercamiento’ which means ‘warmer relations’ to act as a unified block to advance Mexico’s interests inside the U.S. and…weakening of U.S. immigration law. Thus, the Mexican government is using the Mexican U.S. population as a fifth column.”**

As you can see, we allow 56 Mexican consulates in major cities throughout America to foster this invasion with help and guidance inside the belly of America. Those consulates distribute ‘Guia del Migrante Mexicano’ which is a guide for illegals to further imbed themselves into America without getting caught.

*Auster wrote, “It has been proposed that Mexicans in the U.S. vote in Mexican elections. California Mexicans would have seats in the Mexican Congress, specifically representing Mexicans residing in that state. One of Mexico’s three major parties, the PRD, urges the designation of the entire United States as the sixth Mexican electoral district.”**

Winston Churchill wrote in his “Follies of the Victors,” that the Germans were given a ‘motive’ for revenge; later, an opportunity to strike back. By the same stroke of history, the U.S. gave Mexico a ‘motive’ in 1848, and today, an ‘opportunity’ by allowing mass migration.**

In other words, we gave Fox this opportunity; he took it and now General Fox dictates terms to us. Who are his generals? Specifically--U.S. Congressman Joe Baca in California works for ‘Reconquista de Aztlan’ along with Mayor Villaraigosa of Los Angeles, U.S. Congressman Chris Cannon of Utah and dozens of others on U.S. soil. Not only that, he can count on an American foot soldier George Bush and most of the U.S. Congress. Fox counts on the silence of U.S. governors in all 50 states. Who are his foot soldiers? Nine million Mexicans spread across 49 states and growing!**

danedawg99

04-14-2006, 04:52 PM

You know the thing is that it's an honor, a privilege, etc... to be an american citizen. I don't believe it's any harder than a college degree, serving in the armed forces, etc.. and yet those last two I've done. What do they want? a multiple choice test and a week long english course to be considered a citizen?

No offense, but there is a reason why we have these rules.

I'm well aware that we have these rules for a reason. that wasn't my point. my point was that they should make it harder to come here illegally than it is to get here legally. if we didn't have incentives in place for people here illegally, they wouldn't come here. If they didn't already have jobs when they cross the border, they wouldn't come here. And the worst part is, if they get caught and deported, there's nothing to stop them coming back. I've known business owners (my old boss, for example) tell these people that if you get caught, you've got three days to get back here. so, there's still incentive for them to come back. Even if they're making minimum wage or less, it's more $$ than they can make back in Mexico. And when you're trying to support a family, you need as much $$ as you can get.

BTW, my friend already speaks english.

ekosix

04-14-2006, 05:16 PM

We should just take Mexico and make it a state. Problem solved.

Navian

04-14-2006, 05:20 PM

We should just take Mexico and make it a state. Problem solved.

Not really. If Mexico has a s*** load of problems already, and if we make it a state then guess where those problems go? No where, we end up with them, and now we would have to deal with more issues than what we already have.

You would have to break up mexico into like about 5-10 states, then the flag changes, then a whole mess of other problems surface. And those problems can get ugly really fast.

carter the artist

04-14-2006, 05:40 PM

Navian

04-14-2006, 05:49 PM

sorry dane, I misintrepretted your post. I thought you were saying it's too hard to become a legal citizen, because that's what I keep hearing...yet so many people do find a way to legally become a citizen.

Yeah like stealing/buying social security numbers. I've had an issue with mine being used by someone of the hispanic origin. I have also had a red flag on my credit (equifax) and my social security number (SSA). Its a pain in the ass to clear up the crap that those people do to others. I know about this because when I went to open my first bank account at a washington mutual, they ran a credit check, and found out someone else had a bank account with my social security number, I found out who, tried to fix it, all the authorities could do was flag my number. I went to the local police, FBI, FTC, even the SSA, they told me that they couldn't do anything, yet its fraud, and I had the evidence to prove it. This idividual could have gotten my tax returns if I didnt file first.

danedawg99

04-14-2006, 05:53 PM

Yeah like stealing/buying social security numbers. I've had an issue with mine being used by someone of the hispanic origin. I have also had a red flag on my credit (equifax) and my social security number (SSA). Its a pain in the ass to clear up the crap that those people do to others. I know about this because when I went to open my first bank account at a washington mutual, they ran a credit check, and found out someone else had a bank account with my social security number, I found out who, tried to fix it, all the authorities could do was flag my number. I went to the local police, FBI, FTC, even the SSA, they told me that they couldn't do anything, yet its fraud, and I had the evidence to prove it. This idividual could have gotten my tax returns if I didnt file first.
the thing about this is the people actually doing this aren't the illegals. it's the people hiring them and bringing them across.

Navian

04-14-2006, 05:57 PM

How would I know if they where or not?

The FBI nor police wouldn't do anything about it. I have a harder time getting any credit, and keeping my credit good because of this person. Matter of fact, you might want to personaly hire a private investigator and have them investigate yourself, that is also how I found more information about this person (a company I worked for has everyone investigated while they are in the 2 week probhibationary period).

D-Frag

04-14-2006, 06:38 PM

happens all the time here. in fact, if i wanted a new drivers license, or social security card, all i have to do is pay a guy on a street corner (who make themselves very noticable and even advertise) around $20 and i get a whole new identity.

i just wonder why the cops dont go after those individuals. New times ran a story here about it, and where the people hang out even, on what street corners, and which Circle K's. do you think the cops went out and arrested those people....nope.

a women from here learned that someone had bought a $500K home, a boat, 3 vehicles and opened 2 bank accounts under her info. she found out when the bank sent her a new ATM card, and it had someone elses picture on it.

but yes, running checks on yourself and shredding all of your documents is a good safe practice.

danedawg99

04-14-2006, 07:21 PM

"It's about time native americans took back this country, no not actual native americans, you know, white people."

http://www.buffalobeast.com/96/immigration.htm
if the actual native americans hadn't been so nice and would've sent the europeans packing, we wouldn't be having these issues. something to think about... :cool:

Drorain

04-14-2006, 07:41 PM

when the europeans came to america they immigrated for a variety of reasons, some people were kind to the natives, but most were not. The trail of tears is a sad thing, but we need to remember we ended up being the conquerors of the land. After establishing our laws, systems of justice and balance we in effect took ownership, and like it or not we are now able to govern the land as we please. Take it or leave it, personally I will except the freedoms I have with no regret and no remorse because this is how society works. Even the native Americans understood the concept of conquering, like it or not there was established empires in both north and south america.

To think that the white man was at fault really is to only be self-depreciating and accomplishes nothing. We have founded and established one of the most influencial societies in the history of the world, in under 200 years. We have also in the past taken the role of big brother and would be policeman in many wars. Sometimes to great success WW1 and WW2, other times to our detriment, Vietnam and now Iraq.

I'm not into the poor me attitude people have, or in down playing our country, I believe we can do great good, as well as great evil...as any society can.

/end tangent

but like all established nations we have rules and laws, and like all nations we have immigration laws. We have the right to allow in whomever we please on our terms, no one elses...we decide our policy, not 1 million people marching down the street. They say be fair, but there is nothing fair about their actions. Whatever we give them is a favor, not a right. That being said I am for the action I dictated in a previous post...we need to get the people in the country already on a well grounded foundation, but we need to close the wide gate and open the front door.

And that my friends would be a sound immigration policy.

reuber1

04-14-2006, 07:48 PM

Whatever happened to:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

jimking

04-14-2006, 08:27 PM

Whatever happened to:
That all sounds very noble but it's not in the US Constitution. However, what is in the Constitution is for the Federal Government to protect and police the borders. One law that I think the government is in violation of, and I've not heard anyone ever mention it is our 10-year census, which is spelled out in the US Constitution. If our borders are wide open, how then can the Federal Government implement a fairly accurate census? This of course opens another can of worms. The census is to ensure the proper representation in congress from the States to represent the American people. Drorain, you forgot one, the korean war. As far as the Iraq war, I think you got wait a little more time to see how the Iraqis handle being freed.

reuber1

04-14-2006, 08:30 PM

So really America is all about a bunch of technicalities, huh? The Statue of Liberty, an symbol of the freedom that our nation represents, has a plaque that says the above, but that isn't good enough because it isn't in the constitution?

jimking

04-14-2006, 08:39 PM

I'm talking about the laws of the land. Nothing more nothing less. We are a land of laws when you cut to the chase.

reuber1

04-14-2006, 08:40 PM

The_Black_Knight

04-14-2006, 08:44 PM

So, then, what's the point of lady liberty? Why aren't we calling France and telling them to "take this piece of shit back, we don't want it no more". The symbol that most of us associate a great deal of pride means precisely jack shit. Laws or not, is that not what is etched on a plaque on the statue?So, you're telling me that because the Statue of Liberty is there, that means we should let just anyone from anywhere come in, drive down our standard of living by working for low wages, and burden our law enforcement, medical, and educational systems? The Statue of Liberty is a symbol of freedom, not anarchy.

jimking

04-14-2006, 08:48 PM

It's a symbol and a good one. All I'm saying is lets have legal immagration. Increase it if need be. Speed it up or slow it down depending on what this country can handle. If the US dives into a severe depression for example, what people do you think it would effect the most? America should not be up for grabs and you can't have a free for all. There should be controls and we have the laws on the books that the US ignores.

Drorain

04-14-2006, 08:49 PM

people that saw and were inspired by the statue of liberty came here legitamitly, through the golden door, so to speak, not through the back gate or through the windows.

you guys are gonna laugh, but watch "An American Tail" its a good metaphor for migrant families

reuber1

04-14-2006, 08:52 PM

So, you're telling me that because the Statue of Liberty is there, that means we should let just anyone from anywhere come in, drive down our standard of living by working for low wages, and burden our law enforcement, medical, and educational systems? The Statue of Liberty is a symbol of freedom, not anarchy.That is precisely NOT what I said. Obviously importing cheap labor screws up the system, I'm not denying that. If employers are going to hire illegal immigrants for lower wages, do we get pissed at the immigrants? Hell no, it's the employers! A few CEO arrests would certainly do the trick. If Bush was all for that kind of action, we'd be happier and getting along and this would be a much smaller issue. But Bush doesn't want to do that, because you know why? Because in the end it is not regular racist hicks, but business lobbyists that decide Bush’s positions. And a lot of domestic industries—agriculture, food processing, contracting, retail—are quite happily exploiting illegal labor, and like junkies with full wallets, they’re not planning on quitting anytime soon. They, their lobbying group (the Essential Workers Immigration Coalition), and Bush all say that illegal immigrants do the jobs “Americans won’t do.” This is a lie. Americans will eat gorilla testicles on television. Illegal immigrants do jobs Americans would do, but for a lot less money than Americans would do them for.

jimking

04-14-2006, 09:01 PM

This opened border mess is the result of both parties, period and no doubt. I remember a law passed back in the 80s that newly hired employees show proof of citizenship or immigrant status in order to work. I for one had to show my birth certificate, not my ss card to get jobs back then. Has anybody had to show his or her birth certificate lately?

Drorain

04-14-2006, 09:05 PM

hey if someone wants to steal my ID, then I say they are obligated to all the debt that goes with it, after all you take good with the bad :p

The_Black_Knight

04-14-2006, 09:06 PM

reuber,

I think we agree a lot more than we disagree on this. Like you, I would love to see the companies that hire illegals get hammered financially with heavy fines (which would help fund the law enforcement side of the equation). If it becomes a losing proposition to hire illegals, then the problem more or less solves itself, and hopefully people return to their countries of origin.

I have no problem with immigration in principal, but it has to be regulated closely. Everyone coming into the country must be registered, and we have to know where they are at all times. They have to pay taxes. They have to have a job (or be deported). There can't be so many in any one area that it causes an imbalance to the local culture. Children born to immigrants are not automatically considered to be citizens of the U.S. Background checks are vital to ensure that we're not letting criminals in. All of this is for people with green cards, of course; once they're citizens, it all becomes moot, and they're just as free as the rest of us.

reuber1

04-14-2006, 09:09 PM

Drorain

04-14-2006, 09:15 PM

as Jack Black says

"See....It's pancaking simple"

The_Black_Knight

04-14-2006, 09:15 PM

Yeah, I'm not just saying let's open the floodgates like a cheap hookers crotch and let everything in (actually a good analogy, who knows what you'll catch, right?), but getting in legally should be easier.It's like anything else that our Federal government handles; it's a nightmare of beaurocracy and paperwork. Have you tried to figure out your tax paperwork lately? Yup, it's the same mindset at work. Sometimes I wish there was a way we could just tear it all down and start over. I'm pretty sure that's what Jefferson was referring to when he said that a revolution every once in a while is a good thing (note to the Secret Service: no, I'm not advocating a violent revolution here).

D-Frag

04-14-2006, 09:16 PM

i am

jimking

04-14-2006, 09:16 PM

Jeizzavelle

04-18-2006, 12:07 PM

fyred1

04-23-2006, 05:35 PM

I think this is so stupid. If you want to take a stand about wating money on people why not get all the people that we are supporting on welfare? Welfare money (TANF in Indiana) is meant to be temporary. Temporary Aid to Needy Families. Not Salaried job requierments- Uterus. Morons. At least these people work.
Yeah, they work... How many are on the welfare roll at the same time? Their employment is not documented. It's very easy for them to play both sides of the field.

jimking

04-23-2006, 05:42 PM

What I've heard about wages in my area regarding illegals is their pay isn't all that bad. However, many are paid under the table. That leaves more money in their pocket and keeps them under the radar screen.

fyred1

04-23-2006, 06:12 PM

And saves the employer having to pay FICA and workmans comp insurance which makes an actual U.S. citizen undesireable to an employer. Greed is allowing this situation to happen. It should be a punishable offense.

I don't mind having to pay a bit more for services and products if it keeps Americans employed.

I live in Michigan. Here the economy is one of the worst, if not the worst in the country. Unemloyment has been an issue for years now. I still see illegals working on road crews, pouring concrete, building homes... It has to stop. There are far too many people in need of work here that are passed over in favor of cheap labor.

O.T. Another issue that I see is the lack of motivation in (a lot of) our young people. It seems that they want everything handed to them and aren't willing to do an honest days work. Sorry kids but you don't deserve top pay just because you went to school, you have to actually DO SOMETHING first.

Rant...

Rocketpig

04-23-2006, 09:25 PM

I don't mind having to pay a bit more for services and products if it keeps Americans employed.

That's very easy to say until prices start rising and you realize that you are now living beyond your means because everything you buy has taken a 5% price increase.

I live in Michigan. Here the economy is one of the worst, if not the worst in the country. Unemloyment has been an issue for years now. I still see illegals working on road crews, pouring concrete, building homes... It has to stop.

You can blame the UAW for Michigan's economic problems, not illegal immigrants. To remain even slightly competitive (which in a lot of ways they're still not) the Big Three have had to outsource labor because of the incredible restraints of pensions, retirement, and benefits the UAW has forced them into over the years.

There are far too many people in need of work here that are passed over in favor of cheap labor.

I didn't realize there are so many US citizens lining up to dig ditches for $6 an hour.

I'm not for illegal immigration, but talking of felony indictments for violators is damned ridiculous.

The key is to make it harder to get here illegally than it is to legally become a citizen. That's a very fine line because, unlike some of you, I don't wish to live in a police state just because there are people who want to live in America but cannot afford the legal route or they can't wait the 2-3 years to do it legally.

IMO, we get a fair trade... The US gets cheap labor and they get a better (and safer) place to raise their kids.

I've lived in SoCal for 14 years and San Diego for eight. I've worked shoulder-to-shoulder with these people and I'll be damned if they're not the most ambitious, hardest working people I've ever met. I'm not going to spit on them for wanting something better for their families.

Rocketpig

04-23-2006, 09:38 PM

I'd also like to note that America needs to change to remain competitive... The unskilled labor jobs are going and soon they'll be gone forever. There's nothing that can be done about it.

Resisting the change won't do anything but prolong the inevitable. Look at what happened to much of Western Europe during the late 70's and early 80's. Some countries fought the changes (Britain's auto industry, for example) and were ultimately destroyed because of it. Name a major British car company that is actually British-owned nowadays...

The fact is that illegal immigrants are not the problem here. A uneducated & ignorant society is the real problem. The US needs to fight back to stop its three decade long decay in the fields of academia, mathematics, medicine and science and reassert itself as a technological and scientific powerhouse.

The days of working on an assembly line and earning a good wage are gone. And it ain't the immigrants fault. They're just keeping these large corporations afloat for a little bit longer...

fyred1

04-24-2006, 12:06 AM

That's very easy to say until prices start rising and you realize that you are now living beyond your means because everything you buy has taken a 5% price increase.As I stated, that doesn't bother me at all. 5% across the board is a very small price to pay.

You can blame the UAW for Michigan's economic problems, not illegal immigrants. To remain even slightly competitive (which in a lot of ways they're still not) the Big Three have had to outsource labor because of the incredible restraints of pensions, retirement, and benefits the UAW has forced them into over the years.I also blame the UAW. I was once a toolmaker/field service tech. I taught union workers how to repair and maintain automated production machinery. I saw, first hand, what happens in the Big Three plants. I was ashamed and embarassed for the American worker.

I didn't realize there are so many US citizens lining up to dig ditches for $6 an hour.I'd sooner dig ditches than work at a fast food place. So would many others. I'm not afraid to get dirty or work hard, that's the younger generation, not mine.

I'm not for illegal immigration, but talking of felony indictments for violators is damned ridiculous.Felony convictions, not for the workers but for the employers. It's the employers who are the problem.

The key is to make it harder to get here illegally than it is to legally become a citizen. That's a very fine line because, unlike some of you, I don't wish to live in a police state just because there are people who want to live in America but cannot afford the legal route or they can't wait the 2-3 years to do it legally.I, personally, don't care how long they have to wait to get citizenship. Maybe that alone will be enough to slow down the flow into this country.

IMO, we get a fair trade... The US gets cheap labor and they get a better (and safer) place to raise their kids.If you want a better life you should be willing to do it the right way, not illegally. Nothing like teaching your children to ignore the law...

I've lived in SoCal for 14 years and San Diego for eight. I've worked shoulder-to-shoulder with these people and I'll be damned if they're not the most ambitious, hardest working people I've ever met. I'm not going to spit on them for wanting something better for their families.Miraculous tranformations occur when one knows that the money he ships back to his family in Mexico allows them to live like kings and queens. How much of the money made by illegals do you think stays here in the States? I don't think that you see the BIG PICTURE either... You accuse others of being uninformed.

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 01:27 AM

I'd sooner dig ditches than work at a fast food place. So would many others. I'm not afraid to get dirty or work hard, that's the younger generation, not mine.

The fact is those jobs don't pay enough to live on anymore. Any citizen with any common sense whatsoever realizes that one or two years of schooling and you can be making 2 to 3 times the amount you'd make doing that kind of work. Like I said, I don't see citizens lining up to take those jobs. They're simply not worth it. And don't start by accusing the younger generation of being lazy... That's a myth propogated by every generation once they see their own children growing into adulthood.

I, personally, don't care how long they have to wait to get citizenship. Maybe that alone will be enough to slow down the flow into this country.

Why should the flow slow down? Did you think it was right for citizens during the Civil War to try to slow down Irish immigration? You're not Irish, are you? Because these immigrants are mainly Mexican, they should be restricted? WTF?

The door to America does not lock behind you.

Miraculous tranformations occur when one knows that the money he ships back to his family in Mexico allows them to live like kings and queens. How much of the money made by illegals do you think stays here in the States? I don't think that you see the BIG PICTURE either... You accuse others of being uninformed.

I know how much is sent back to Mexico. In fact, it's one of Mexico's top five forms of gross national income. Did you know that?

It still seems like a fair trade to me.

fyred1

04-24-2006, 02:38 AM

... And don't start by accusing the younger generation of being lazy... That's a myth propogated by every generation once they see their own children growing into adulthood.I've seen examples this more than one time in more than one place. My wife also sees it every day at work. It's no myth, it's a fact. I don't mind it much, they all end up getting laid off or fired and complaining that it wasn't their fault. Unfortunately, most of them don't learn from it at all and repeat the cycle again. They all have the same thing in common. They think that they're smarter and worth more than anyone else.

Why should the flow slow down? Did you think it was right for citizens during the Civil War to try to slow down Irish immigration? You're not Irish, are you? Because these immigrants are mainly Mexican, they should be restricted? WTF?The flow should slow because it's causing a problem. It not only takes work away from legal citizens, it allows the propagation of a subculture that is taught from birth to subvert the legal system. No I'm not Irish, I'm German/Austrian. America hated my people so much that our family name had to be changed in order to be accepted. My people were looking for a better life also. They did it legally.

The door to America does not lock behind you.Nor should it. I'm not for stopping it completely, just for doing it legally.

I know how much is sent back to Mexico. In fact, it's one of Mexico's top five forms of gross national income. Did you know that?It's around $20 billion per year and rising. $20 f***ing BILLION...
Link: http://www.idexer.com/

It still seems like a fair trade to me.Fair...:rolleyes:

Vikia

04-24-2006, 03:12 AM

I as a citizen will vote for policy that expands the immigration program, but also punishes those who are here illegally. Many people stand with me on this, and like I said in previous posts this is not an issue of racism...this is an issue of national soveriegnty and laws....The stooges that hired ilegal aliens should also be forced to pay retroactively for a years wages for each employee, that way there is no payoff for this modern day slave labor.

Who the hell do you think is bringing migrant workers to the United States...?
The answer is Big Business Employers.

Do you realize that in order to maintain a lower payscale, companies are actually sponsoring jobfairs IN MEXICO to lure migrant workers.
American businesses partner with "coyotes" to bring the workers to the United States to jobs that are waiting for them!
The minimum wage of $5.15 per hour (in Nebraska) is roughly what the migrant worker will make in an entire day in his home country. They work long hours, they don't complain, they work without benefits like health care. But at 8X their normal pay in their home country, they are able to send money home to their families to provide for them.

This is how American businesses are able to find a group of workers willing to work for a minimum wage that has not been a living wage for Americans since 1968! The last 90 cent increase was in 1998. It is not that American workers don't want these jobs, they want them!... at a payscale that will make it possible for them to survive.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwage

Americans that actually live on a minimum wage income are living below poverty level and cannot maintain the barest of essentials to provide for their families. Missing even one paycheck can mean the difference of living out of their car or out on the street. There are no safety nets and families with children are the hardest hit. But many in Washington would like to get rid of any programs that are the thinnest cushion of support for even the most needy.

Get an education and get a better job?
Not so simple.

There are fewer opportunities for higher education for even those families that can manage to send their children to college. Joining the military and putting their lives on the line in Iraq may be the only way lower income teens today can afford to pay for their education. To make matters worse, jobs for the college educated are becoming fewer as well.

Computer related jobs that were supposed to attract America's educated and re-educated middle class are now off-shored to India, Pakistan, and China.

Targeting the Latino migrant worker for just wanting the opportunity to provide for their families is ridiculous and mis-directed. They are not "causing" the problems Americans face by the importation of workers any more than the Irish, Chinese, German, Polish, Scandanavian etc, etc, immigrants that came before them. Historically, all of these groups of immigrants were met with the same disdain and warnings of how they will change or harm the US.

Making laws that make these people criminals will not stop those who dangle the carrot.

Aim a bit higher with your criticism...why is big business allowed to destroy the American Job?

Why are employers allowed to offer jobs to illegal migrant workers or simply look the other way until government comes in and rounds them up?

Why are employers allowed to off-shore jobs without tax reprecussions?

Why are tax breaks still being given to companies by states that were told jobs would be available to residents of the state in which tax breaks were given.

Why aren't we taxing every single business that uses offshore contractors to help pay the cost of lost income relief services and taxes that the American worker can no longer pay now that their jobs are no longer in America.

If American jobs disappear, look to the greed of the American business executives, and stockholders with no public conscience.
Look to those executives who manage to endow themselves with higher and higher bonuses, patting themselves on the back after saving their companies bottom-line money by offshoring American jobs without any thought what-so-ever to how their bottom line affects the American economy.

But then why should they care...more and more American companies are actually owned by larger companies outside the US! They trade in a global economy without borders and probably also own the companies that provide the services that American businesses are now contracting from. From their point of view, this is a WIN-WIN for them.

Corporate greed in America is alive and well and often living in another country.

Now go back and think about that!

</end rant>

typographics

04-24-2006, 03:33 AM

lol. nice rant! i give it four stars.

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 03:52 AM

Bravo, Vikia. I don't agree with a lot of what you're saying, but at least you're asking the right questions.

As I said earlier, the immigrants are not the problem. But just as they were blamed during the beginning of the industrial revolution as America transitioned from an agriculture state to an urban industrial state, they are now being blamed for the loss of jobs during this era of gloablization.

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 03:56 AM

I've seen examples this more than one time in more than one place. My wife also sees it every day at work. It's no myth, it's a fact. I don't mind it much, they all end up getting laid off or fired and complaining that it wasn't their fault. Unfortunately, most of them don't learn from it at all and repeat the cycle again. They all have the same thing in common. They think that they're smarter and worth more than anyone else.

Considering that every generation has claimed that about their sons and daughters since recorded history began, it's amazing that we're not all permanently couch ridden sloths by now.

[/sarcasm]

What you're bitching about is the stupidity of youth, not a broad stroke indicating the downfall of society as we know it due to the laziness of the upcoming generation.

greyghost

04-24-2006, 03:57 AM

Good article, Vikia.

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 04:03 AM

Er, I misread Vikia's post. I'll respond later.

fyred1

04-24-2006, 04:51 AM

What you're bitching about is the stupidity of youth, not a broad stroke indicating the downfall of society as we know it due to the laziness of the upcoming generation.That's what I'm bitching about? Wow! No, that was a side rant.

You speak of globalization. How will you feel when globalization puts your job in the hands of someone else because it can be done for less overseas? I won't ask what your wage is, but I'll bet that I once made double or better. The free trade agreement helped put an end to that. How does the U.S. benefit from your globalization? I'm not narrow minded. Explain... Prove that your theory works in the long run. Prove to me that moving manufacturing overseas does something positive for average Joe American. I don't believe you can. Your globalization does nothing but make the rich richer and further separate the classes.

The American dream is becoming a nightmare.

Vikia

04-24-2006, 11:10 AM

That's what I'm bitching about? Wow! No, that was a side rant.

You speak of globalization. How will you feel when globalization puts your job in the hands of someone else because it can be done for less overseas? I won't ask what your wage is, but I'll bet that I once made double or better. The free trade agreement helped put an end to that. How does the U.S. benefit from your globalization? I'm not narrow minded. Explain... Prove that your theory works in the long run. Prove to me that moving manufacturing overseas does something positive for average Joe American. I don't believe you can. Your globalization does nothing but make the rich richer and further separate the classes.

The American dream is becoming a nightmare.

First, this is hardly "Rocketpig's" globalization. It is a fact that all workers will and must deal with. I suggest reading "The World is Flat" by Tom Friedman to get the bigger picture. It is not as if we actually have a choice on whether or not we accept the state of globalization...it is the the future of how ALL business is being done.

Manufacturing companies are complelled by their need to keep costs down and profits up to seek the labor markets that will accomplish this for them. Each country can do what it can to keep their piece of the action by trying to lead in technology, education or the newest best thing to attract commerce and the jobs that it brings, but even the labor market in India will eventually lose out to the next cheaper labor market that comes into the picture.

Better to find how you fit into a smaller world with a bigger pie that has slices of all sizes than to rant about how small the local pie is getting.

PrintDriver

04-24-2006, 11:30 AM

There is a big difference between migrant workers and illegal aliens. I worked in Agriculture for a number of years (to pay for college). My employer would hire in migrant Mexican and Cambodian labor for the summer to work the harvesting/planting fields. They complied with all regulations in doing so and worked with the INS to ensure everyone who worked there was legal (a few were deported one year for falsifying papers). Each worker had a working visa paid for by the company. They were provided transportation to and from Mexico and a place to live on site with a bunkhouse and kitchen. The Cambodians were 'gypsies' moving with the seasonal work but they also had a bunkhouse and kitchen. And their paperwork was checked too. Most of them were already citizens or working to become so.

So there is a way to do this legally if you want the lower wage workers. It requires paperwork and administrative ability, more so than cooking books to hide the fact you have illegals working for you.

fyred1

04-24-2006, 02:44 PM

First, this is hardly "Rocketpig's" globalization. This was just a way of stating that I don't agree.

Manufacturing companies are complelled by their need to...line their pockets without regard to how it affects our country and its people.

Better to find how you fit into a smaller world with a bigger pie that has slices of all sizes than to rant about how small the local pie is getting.I think that you're a wise woman, Vikia, but where will YOU fit in in the new global economy? Do you realize that we buy billions of dollars worth of goods from China and that China refuses to bring it's dollar to even HALF of what ours is worth? We cannot compete with this kind of trade AT ALL. The Chinese don't buy our products because the cost is too high. How does this end up working for EVERYONE? I'm sorry but it doesn't.

The cheap labor idea, be it from illegal aliens or from overseas manufacturing, is going to hurt more than it could ever help. Corporate greed is at the heart of it. It needs to be stopped.

Drorain

04-24-2006, 03:25 PM

PD thats a very good point, down in cape cod the hotels bring people up from jamaica to work during the tourist season, there are legal ways to do it.

our economy is not built on cheap labor, if it is then we have a very fragile house of cards here

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 03:59 PM

Manufacturing companies are complelled by their need to keep costs down and profits up to seek the labor markets that will accomplish this for them. Each country can do what it can to keep their piece of the action by trying to lead in technology, education or the newest best thing to attract commerce and the jobs that it brings, but even the labor market in India will eventually lose out to the next cheaper labor market that comes into the picture.

Exactly. It's a cycle. The US undercut European labor rates in the 1850s-early 1900's (a lot of it was due to our abundance of natural resources), Japan did it to the US in the 1970's, South Korea and China have started doing it to Japan... And now countries like India and Brazil will shortly follow.

It's an inevitable cycle. You start out as a poor (probably agricultural) country with cheap labor. Cheap labor brings business. Business brings better education and lifestyle. Better education and lifestyle bring higher pay rates.

Now you're fodder for the next poor country in line who wants a better standard of living. They can now produce cheaper goods than you can because their workers are willing to work for 1/10th of your pay. And, I repeat for the 10th time, there is nothing that can be done about it.

Short of taking over said country. And I think we can all agree that is a very, very bad idea.

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 04:06 PM

line their pockets without regard to how it affects our country and its people.The cheap labor idea, be it from illegal aliens or from overseas manufacturing, is going to hurt more than it could ever help. Corporate greed is at the heart of it. It needs to be stopped.

Do you not get it? If the corporations don't outsource, they will die because certainly someone else will take their place in India/China/S. Korea.

What happens when "proud" company of widget A keeps all their workers in the US and their products cost $500 apiece while "evil" company of widget B (an identical widget) outsources all their goods to China and sells the same product for $300?

Which company is going to succeed and which will fail?

I think that you're a wise woman, Vikia, but where will YOU fit in in the new global economy?

I can't speak for Vikia but my business strategy is to attack local businesses with a local approach and decent prices. I give them the feeling that they can't go anywhere else because I know their market, their customers, and themselves personally and I provide the best design alternative for their small business.

Someone in India cannot possibly do the same design I do for the businesses of Long Beach simply because they haven't been here and they don't know the people. That's how I'm approaching things. While design won't ever be outsourced en masse like other industries, there's always a risk and I"m trying to protect myself.

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 04:11 PM

I think that you're a wise woman, Vikia, but where will YOU fit in in the new global economy?

A few people I know have learned Chinese or Indian (or are of that decent and already knew the language). There are thousands of openings for skilled technicians who can bridge the gap to these outsourcing nations.

If you're creative, there's always a way to make money.

Jeizzavelle

04-24-2006, 04:13 PM

Wow this is giving me a headache. I agree with the notion that it's going to happen and you have to deal with it or learn to work around it.

jimking

04-24-2006, 04:18 PM

Also, stock holders (we the people) demand growth and profit.

fyred1

04-24-2006, 04:20 PM

Do you not get it? If the corporations don't outsource, they will die because certainly someone else will take their place in India/China/S. Korea.
Don't you get it? If we keep moving jobs overseas, who here is going to be able to buy the damned products?! Eventually, the situation worsens.

Higher taxes for outsourcing companies and, possibly, trade sanctions against countries who refuse to compete fairly might be the start of a solution. I am tired, so tired, of the brainwashed individuals who think that there is some wonderful new world economy on the horizon. China, for one, is laughing at us.

Rocketpig

04-24-2006, 04:22 PM

Also, stock holders (we the people) demand growth and profit.

Another good point. We haven't mentioned that globalization is entirely market driven.

Customers want cheaper goods and stock holders want higher profits. Companies then find that outsourcing accomplishes both those goals. So they do it.

And everyone is happy until jobs start disappearing (not that it wouldn't have happened anyway).

Just look at the beating the US electronics industry took at the hands of the Japanese. They didn't outsource (it wasn't really an option back then) and now you see many of the old US electronic powerhouses reduced to a niche market by the hands of Sanyo, Sony, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, etc.

What's better, keeping the companies in the US and all of the administrative and design jobs that come with them or losing out entirely to a foreign-based corporation?

fyred1

04-24-2006, 04:27 PM

jimking

04-24-2006, 04:50 PM

Growth and PERSONAL profit, which fall into the looking out for number 1 category. What are the repercussions of that mentality? The rich get richer. The poor? Well who cares about the poor anyway...

WE NEED MORE JOBS HERE.

You should read the book "The World is Flat". There are some things in it that make me angry too, but short of boycotting or a war there's not much you can do about it. The world is becoming an equal playing field, hence the name The World is Flat. American people have their retirement tied to a 401k which is the stock market. If you look at the positive side, spin offs, new inventions, things we are not aware of yet can equal the playing field.
Also people need to choose their careers carefully. Can't outsource plumbing.

fyred1

04-24-2006, 04:55 PM

You can't outsource fast food workers either...

Edit: I'm sorry. Hi Jim.

jimking

04-24-2006, 05:00 PM

You can't outsource fast food workers either...
Fyred1, you gotta read that book. Yes you can outsource fast food and it's being done now! How, believe it or not, some McDonalds in the midwest are outsourcing the order taking. That's right, you drive up to the voice box, your order is taken by someone in India, they intern rely the order back to the cooks at that particular McDonalds. :eek:

fyred1

04-24-2006, 05:04 PM

That's sickening to me... I'll read the book (and be even angrier than I am now).

jimking

04-24-2006, 05:24 PM

I myself is in trouble. As rocketpig said, graphic design in many cases is local. Where as with me, my career in printing is going to end in a few years. Why, as electronic files become more automated, new compression programs, super high speed internet etc. my job as a electronic prepress tech can easily be outsourced. And has in some cases. The fact that next month I'll be 49 and have been in printing for 30 years bothers me a little. Maybe I'll go to back to school and become a designer. :D

fyred1

04-24-2006, 05:28 PM

heh! You'd better become a damned good one...

jimking

04-24-2006, 05:33 PM

Fyred1, there's a lot of blow hards here in DC. I should be able to stay busy.

fyred1

04-24-2006, 05:41 PM

Use any contacts that you might have to your best advantage. There is a glut of graphic designers (or so called) -- not that I'm a special talent myself.

Samakimoto Graphics

04-25-2006, 05:54 AM

Rocketpig

04-25-2006, 07:37 AM

Now I've heard all the rant about setting up regulations to stop illegal imigrants from entering the "Land of the Free". Now, let's look at the other side of imigration: the people coming in now are mostly unskilled labourers who would otherwise have no jobs in their own countries. The UK has, and the USA in the not-so-distant-future will introduce the so called Point System (maybe by another term) that only allows professionals from specific fields into the country legally- namely doctors and nurses- who are a vital resource in their countries of origin (mainly Africa).

How about this: While we are putting in measures to stop illegal imigrants let's put in regulations or a system to pay for out sourcing this valuable manpower rather than being quick to offer them citizenship - let's say we will then be closer to offering fair reparition, after all our economy is to a large extent supported by their work.

Most of you are missing the fact that this country's biggest asset is its immigrants. You don't want to change that. It spurs innovation and new thinking.

Plus, new immigrants fill the needs of a lower class. Every society has one. It's an unfortunate aspect of human society but it exists. Do you want the lower class to be filled by citizens (look at Europe and their own unemployment rates) and if you don't, go ahead and elminate immigrants. Because I'm sure the people of the Rust Belt will be happy to fulfill the jobs (and pay rates) of the immigrants.

[/sarcasm]

Samakimoto Graphics

04-25-2006, 02:21 PM

Ahmen! Yet again...

Navian

04-25-2006, 02:36 PM

I stand by my previous statement.

But I'd like to include:

If you leave this country to go to another country, OR leave another country to come to this country, you are required by federal law, to have on you a valid non-expired passport and (sometimes) a visa.

You cannot get on a plane leaving or entering this or any other country without one. You can't get past customs here in the US without one.

It doesn't bother me if people wish to leave there country of origin to come here. What bothers me is they don't make any effort to obtain a citizenship, and make themselves legit.

Hell you can apply for a dual citizenship (I know quite a few people who have done this).

Oh and here is a little of juicy news:

A local company here in Utah got busted for having a quite a few undocumented workers.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=220527&nid=148

Samakimoto Graphics

06-19-2007, 06:17 AM

Sorry to revive an old thread, then again this is an old issue that is here to stay.

I got an email from an org and followed a list of articles on their site - http://www.african-pac.org/

This article caught my eye, so I thought I'd share. I'm not sure about the stats: http://www.african-pac.org/

Title The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation:
Incarceration Rates among Native and Foreign-Born Men
by Ruben G. Rumbaut, Ph.D. and Walter A. Ewing, Ph.D.

Samakimoto Graphics

06-29-2007, 06:59 AM

Here's a few views on the Immigration Bill being proposed in the US.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=6722&&&edition=2&ttl=20070629074309

The thread is still open...

seamas

06-29-2007, 02:13 PM

My grandparents came here from Germany and Italy, both through ellis island also, and both had to learn English to even survive. There was no marketing to "Germans" or "Italians" you didn't see billboards in other languages.

You sure did see signs and billboards in German and Italian.

Ever see photos of ethnic areas in NYC at the turn of the century?

Little Italy, south Greenwich Village and the Dumont section of the Bronx was nearly completely Italian language - signs, billboards, everything.
Yorkville and the St. Mark's area of the East Village was all German language (Till WWI that is).
The lower east side was all Yiddish - all the signage was in Hebrew alphabet.

Not to mention Chinatown, and certain areas where the Irish language was spoken by people from the Gaeltach.

NYC wasn't the only place this happened. The same thing was seen in Philidelphia, South Boston and Chicago. Swedish Immigrants conducted town business in Swedish in certain communities in Minnesota and German was common municipal language amongst the Pennslyvania Dutch (who were actually not Dutch but Deutch).

The idea that out grandparents assimilated immediately is rediculous and flies in the face of the historical record.

This is NOT to say that our immigration laws should not be enforced. We have every right as a nation (an obligation even) to control the rate of influx into our borders.