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greyghost
05-02-2006, 08:07 PM
And I shouldn't even be worrying about it.

It goes like this: in Feburary I met with a guy about business cards. I sent off a propsal and a contract and...He never got back to me until April, when he had someone else in his shop call me to ask me to pick up a disk. So I get the disk (and felt kinda odd about it) and ask what it is - they had already designed their cards and put them on there. I gave him the proposal and contract, and he doesn't want to sign it - telling me "contracts are useless." But eventually he signs it, because I don't do work without one, and gave me 1/2 the design fee.

So I look at the disk, it's all in vector. What did he need me for? But I did 3 new designs with his information on it, and sent them to him. His response was a curt "I don't like any of them - use the one we gave you." Well I had to make a couple of adjustments - black type on dark blue isn't going to read well. Anyway. I send those off, and hear nothing for 2 weeks.

I get an email. "Are they done yet?" So I asked if he had gotten my email with the last proof it in (this by the way, happened a lot, him "not getting" an email or "he sent me one" when I don't have any such thing. No OTHER emails for my clients are missing - so I know it isn't MY end. He says he gave me a GTG 2 weeks ago. Well dude, no you didn't but let's talk pricing for printing. I send off the quotes, he picks one, and I ask when I can come by to get a check to cover the cost of printing.

"Three day shipping will be fine."

"Okay - and when is a good time for me to come by and get a check?"

Anyway.... a few more weeks pass - these are business cards, folks, I dont have time to chase small fish down over business cards. If you want em printed, contact me.

Finally he emails me today with "where are my cards?"

So I call him. I explain (again) that I cannot send anything to a printer without a check. "Oh, you need money?" (duh).... "Well, forget it. Give me my money back."

Me: no, I worked for that money. (the whole lousy $XX of it!!!!)

Him: "Fine. Forget it. We tried."

You know, shit like this bothers me only because its a small town. And I was in such a groove before all this, getting all kinds of stuff done. And you know what else? I am a damn good designer, just last week I knocked the socks off a new client - and his whole AD was done in 3 days at most - proofing and all. I have quick turnarounds AND good work - what the hell is this guy's pancaking MFing problem? Is he trying to make ME look bad because I'm new to this small town? He does signs - the big ones you see in strip malls - did he feel threatened in some way and want to be able to trash my rep?

reuber1
05-02-2006, 08:13 PM
He more than likely has small man-hood complex.

Logo-Mechanix
05-02-2006, 08:19 PM
It's always the smallest jobs that become the biggest headaches, I don't know if old Murphy wrote that in his laws but if he didn't, he should have.

greyghost
05-02-2006, 08:22 PM
Ray - you made me laugh - thanks :)

Logo - that;s waaaay too true. Why is that anyway? I knew it from the magazine industry - full page ads are never the headache of a 1/8 page ad. EVER.

Satchel
05-02-2006, 08:28 PM
Your avatar is very fitting for your mood :)

PS. sorry to hear your situation, that guy's a p-rick!

EC
05-02-2006, 08:34 PM
The thing is, you needn't worry about your reputation. Funny thing about reputations, people tend to consider the source -- and I'm sure that anybody that would pay any attention to him wouldn't be somebody you want to work with anyway.

..|. .|..

balou
05-02-2006, 08:37 PM
Yuck! Don't you wonder how people like that stay in business?

jimking
05-02-2006, 09:18 PM
I hate b/c, letterheads, env. Often the people involved with them know nothing about printing, design and its procedures. The sales people at my place smile at me and hand the those jobs off to someone eles. :p

typographics
05-02-2006, 10:34 PM
when did "pancaking" become a popular term? i never heard it until this forum. dont get me wrong, i like it!..especially for breakfast.

Rocketpig
05-02-2006, 10:44 PM
The guy might not be good at online communication.

Not to nitpick, but a phone call or two could have fixed this situation. If I don't hear from a client within three days of sending a proof, I call them to remind them that I need a response to proceed.

When it comes to printing (especially small runs), I foot the bill and tack on 10-20% for the "pain in my ass bill". Then if I don't trust that I will receive payment, I don't deliver until I've been paid. But overall I treat print jobs just like any of my design services (namely the client never has to write a third party check for me to complete my work).

Unless it's a monster printing job. Then I won't touch it with my own money. :)

typographics
05-02-2006, 10:53 PM
flipping the bill with your own money seems dangerous. what if the client decides not to pay you, and doesnt want the cards?

you could sue i guess, but the time and money involved in such an adventure would probably cost about the same as the money you lost on the printing, assuming again it was a small run.

jimking
05-02-2006, 10:54 PM
when did "pancaking" become a popular term? i never heard it until this forum. dont get me wrong, i like it!..especially for breakfast.
Just wait until you post some art for opinions and someone says "Just add a tad more cowbell, that ought to do it". :)

typographics
05-02-2006, 10:57 PM
lol. thats a good one. im stealing that.

PrintDriver
05-02-2006, 11:01 PM
You could read the history of Pancake in the FAQ for New Users here:
http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7786

Rocket, you don't take a deposit?
Crazy, man.

EC
05-02-2006, 11:03 PM
I will front printing costs only if I have an established trust relationship with a client, and only small jobs (say $200 or under). Even at 20% that's not a profit center it's just more of a courtesy and they must earn that level of service by having a record of paying their bills on time.

I know greyghost tried to call this dude, he was just one of those people. There is no excuse for a client to not respond to an email though. I actually have "must have email and be available to respond to emails during the project" in my contract -- it's way more convenient for me and sometimes it's not all about them. I am running a business too, and my time has value. If they want it good and they want it at a fair price, and they don't want to pay me for phone calls and running all over town (of course they don't) then they can answer my emails. If they are impossible to get ahold of it sucks all the profits right out of a job. I think the fact that this man was so hard to reach is very telling about his unprofessionalism and his disrespect for his vendors.

But that's just me.

typographics
05-02-2006, 11:17 PM
hehe. thanks PD. interesting how the term "pancaking" came about.

Gromit801
05-02-2006, 11:44 PM
Oh, I feel your pain. After I read the thread, I glanced up at the "Jobs on Hold" bin in front of me. Some go back to last year. Must be about 10 or 12 jobs in that bin. Some clients are so disorganized, they forget who's supposed to to what, and things fall through the cracks (which isn't your ex-clients excuse).

Had one of my favorite "Things I never want to hear from the mouth of a customer" moments today. After making a few minor tweaks to his project, the ever hated "Well, you're the expert. What do you think?" AAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH! Must frag things tonight!

greyghost
05-02-2006, 11:59 PM
Sure I could have called every few days. And yes, I could have even walked into his business. But that kind of handholding, for a run of business cards... no. I have done that for a local with her brochure, which is taking a while but her husband is sick and she is trying to run a restaurant herself. Not easy. But she's also the type - if she didn't like something, she'd make noise about it. And so far, she is quite happy.

I would never foot a printing bill and then expect the client to pay it. Further, I had heard through the town rumor mill that you do not trust this guy. So I got my depost, I had the contract, and I was friendly, professional, and did enough calling and emailing and some nice turnarounds for him. I did my usual good work. I met every deadline until his timeline kept screwing things up.

After all that - there is NO WAY that I would print his stuff for him. I would do that for maybe a few older clients, and maybe 2 people in town that I trust would pay up.

Rocketpig
05-03-2006, 12:01 AM
Rocket, you don't take a deposit?
Crazy, man.

I either work the cost into the original quote (and make sure it's covered in the deposit) or if it's an established client, I'll pay out of pocket. I should have stated that more clearly.

My point is that I don't like clients having to pay other people to get a completed product from me. I like to handle things from start to completion.

Rocketpig
05-03-2006, 12:03 AM
Sure I could have called every few days. And yes, I could have even walked into his business. But that kind of handholding, for a run of business cards... no.

Fair enough.

I would never foot a printing bill and then expect the client to pay it. Further, I had heard through the town rumor mill that you do not trust this guy.

Ah, so you had already heard bad things about the guy. That certainly changes things.

greyghost
05-03-2006, 12:33 AM
Unfortunately, I heard the bad things after I agreed to do the cards. :(

Malaclypse
05-05-2006, 05:48 PM
He sent you, the designer, 'finished' art to get B/Cs? Sounds like he doesn't know the difference between designer and printer... Or maybe the printers in town won't touch him with a 10 foot pole so he has to go through a 3rd party.

CatintheHat1
05-05-2006, 09:53 PM
I hate b/c, letterheads, env. Often the people involved with them know nothing about printing, design and its procedures. The sales people at my place smile at me and hand the those jobs off to someone eles. :p

I don't do them at all. I send them all off to a designer in the UK, she loves the stuff.

One of my more...er..."intense" clients just changed his proof yet again (we're on about # 15, I quit, he promised to do better)...anyway, this latest change was so my design would match his biz cards (nice time to mention THAT fact, after 20 hours of work)....so he sends the cards, telling me he hasn't made a final decision...man, there were about 10 designs there..he's driving that poor designer mad, too...LOL. At least I know I'm not alone.