I want to learn web design

[April]

So I'm officially out of a job, trying to go full-time freelance and I want to learn web design (God knows I need all the work I can get). I've wanted to do this for quite some time, but just haven't had time... I obviously have all kinds of time now. I know very little about web design, but pick up on things pretty darn fast. Can anyone recommend someone or somewhere in MN who can teach me asap?

[chris_bcn]

erm.... it's really not something you cxan pick up over a wekend. Sorry, but I hate the idea that web design is something that you can just do. It kinfd of bugs me. I have spent years studying and working to achieve the level I have now ( and that level isn't anywhere near where I want it to be). The web world suffers from this mentality. You wouldn't think you could learn to be a systems admin or a bus driver ASAP. It takes time to learn your craft.

I can only imagine the bashing I'd get if I said, I've had enough of the web world, and I've decided to learn print design. I need to learn it now, so can someone teach me.

Sorry for the rant but it fair boils my bum!

If you want to learn then then check out these links and buy these books:

Bulletproof web design by Dan cederholm
professional CSS
Any Eric MEyer book

http://www.w3schools.com/ - dry but very good
http://www.createwebmagic.com/css101/
http://del.icio.us/popular/css - more CSS links than you can shake your fist at.

Cheeck out all the CSS blogs

noteable for me are:

http://www.cameronmoll.com/
http://veerle.duoh.com/ - depressingly beautiful design
http://www.dontmeetyourheroes.com/v_2/ - feed of popular blogs

and so many more - I'm sure others will add.

But make sure you know what web standards are and why they are important. And please don't sell your services until you know what you're doing. The last this industry needs is reinforcement of the myth that web design is an extended hobbyist activity

[JPnyc]

It takes a while no doubt bout it. I would say if you work at it everyday, about 4-5 hrs a day, give yourself about 8 months to 1 yr, depending on how fast you learn and how hard to work at it.

[chris_bcn]

and then you carry on learning after that. Never seems to end unfortunately (and fortunately as it would be dull otherwise).

But if you have a grasp of basic design fundamentals then you can get to grips with the basics in that time frame. Takes a lot of work and dedication though. It's not a route to a quick buck.

[April]

I have NO intentions of touching ANYTHING until I know what I'm doing. Didn't mean to give you the wrong impression. I get just as urked off about dorks trying to design that don't know what they're doing - totally understand where you're coming from. I just want to know enough to get in there and start trying to figure things out. I'm a visual learner - I've been trying to teach myself and it's not going real well, that's why I need someone to show me asap, so that I have time to play around with things on my own in my spare time and hopefully get good enough to start doing it for clients.

[morea]

www.w3schools.com is a good place to start.

[April]

btw - thanks for the links! I've been on the w3schools website, but not the createwebmagic site. I bookmarked it and will check it out.

[Zendada]

Some other tips for the very basics...

I use DreamWeaver for building, managing and ftping sites. Macromedia had some on-line tutorials for DreamWeaver and a demo a few years ago. This was how I started.

There are tons of HTML tutorials on the web. Google it. Plenty of cheap books on basic HTML code at the library or B&N. Taking a basic HTML class is extremely helpful and quite possibly could be offered for free or next to nothing somewhere in your community.

Learning basic HTML should have been my first step. You can know DreamWeaver inside and out, but knowing HTML is whats going to help you figure out why DreamWeaver does not always give you what you want.

If you see something in a web page that you like, look at the source code. You can do this in any browser. Check out how other people do things. Copy and paste the code of the object or page you like and fiddle with it to see how it works.

[EC]

if you are a visual learner, check out lynda.com.

[ecsyle]

Don't be afraid to ask questions, and please, dont be afraid to look for answers yourself. Look first. You might be surprised at what you learn on the way to finding your answer :)

[JPnyc]

The best thing to learn is how to search for things. Now that I know what to search on, I can find answers to most anything in a couple secs by using google.

[April]

Anyone know if the Art Institute Online would be a good choice?

[chris_bcn]

Sorry for being crabby, but your wording made me think you were just going to use a WYSIWYG, call yourself a web designer and sell your services. I see that so often!!

I did an online course, but it didn't work out so well for me. I found it hard being so far away from any tutors and fellow students. That and a lot of the stuff on the course was building websites using tables and frames etc.

If certification isn't important, then the best way is to get some good books, read all the blogs, all the time. and then practice like mad.

There are a lot fo people (such as myself) here who are web designers exclusively, and will bemore than willing to help you out when you get stuck.

Reading and practice is the best way to learn web design. You are in the great position of not having to unlearn the bad habits a lot of us had from the 90s.

Always code to a strict doctype
Seperate structure from style
Don't use tables for layout - fine for tabular data
learnhow to clear floats - one of the biggest headaches in web design - overflow:auto works wonders!

[EC]

overflow:auto works wonders!

I never use this, funny.

I actually think that web design is one area where it's better to be self-taught than to learn in a classroom (flash is probably the exception). Just be careful before you give them your money and your time, make sure you'll be learning good practices. (If I could find that, I'd take a class myself!) If the course description focuses on CSS, XHTML, and web standards -- I'd say go for it. But I've never come across a class that I felt would teach good techniques, personally. Seems like most of them are geared toward "learning Dreamweaver".

Also, I've seen a LOT of students in here and I'm often shocked at what they're being taught -- the practices are shamefully out of date (tables for layout, image maps, frames, etc.) and again, the focus is on learning the software. That's like saying "Learn spanish, here's this english to spanish translation machine and we'll spend the next five months learning how to use it" Wouldn't it be better to just learn Spanish?

Take some time to peruse the w3schools site and to AT LEAST pick up a copy of any book by Jeffrey Zeldman, Dan Cederholm, Eric Meyer, Dave Shea, Molly Holzchlag, Simon Collison, Andy Budd, Cameron Moll ... (learn these names and visit their sites, they are our leaders. lol ) Learn from these places/books/people what you should be looking for in classroom syllabus.

Back in the olden days before there was such a thing as a "web design class" -- well, that's when I first learned HTML. I picked up a couple of books at the library and set aside an entire weekend. I stocked the fridge with food, locked the door, turned off the phone, and set up my own "classroom". I went from "What is HTML?" to building as simple website in two days. You *can* teach yourself the basics of web design (html/css anyway), and I imagine you can even get there faster than in a classroom if you are disciplined enough.

[JPnyc]

Well even if you learn in a classroom, which I personally think is very good for a proper grounding in the stuff, you'll still end up learning more on your own, afterwards. Because there is SO much to learn that no course can be comprehensive enough to cover all of it.

[chris_bcn]

view source - best way to learn HTML

get the web developer toolbar extension for firefox - god only knows how I survived before this little gem - CTRL+SHIFT+C will show the CSS for any site.

Look at the HTML and CSS - take it apart, build it up, learn from it. Don't just nick though!!

overflow:hidden or overflow:auto - is the dogs - stick it on the container that has the floats and half of your IE / firefox discrepancies will go away. Great, great way to clear your floats. Not without its pitfalls though ofcourse

[Emmanize]

Sorry for being crabby, but your wording made me think you were just going to use a WYSIWYG, call yourself a web designer and sell your services.

Yeah. Id do that. I mean I know what I am doing, but due to me being dyslexic coding can be difficult for me. You have to think that all DW is, is a programme for programmers/developers and designers to build websites. Most designers will use the WYSIWYG side and I really don’t think it’s a problem. Don’t forget, using this method normally means more design work, as people that can 100% hand code don’t normally need to do a lot of design work as the code does it all. I really wish people would leave this WYSIWYG thing alone!

I don’t think this should be used if you don’t know what your doing though – as a quick fix. Try learning to hand code and just use what you feel most combatable with.

[chris_bcn]

I don't think I could disagree much more.

I agree that there's nothing worng with using DW as a tool, still use it occasionally myself, only in code view though.

However, anyone using DW or any WYSIWYG in design view only should not call themselves a professional web designer. Because it means you don't know what you're doing. I'm not programmer, nor do I want to be one.

WYSIWYG in design mode is for people who aren't professional, don't want to be, but want to throw up a website. fair play to them. I have no problem with that. But if you do it for a living, then you have to learn your craft

I have scant knowledge of server side languages - pretty much just enough to get myself into trouble. Any web designer worth their salt knows how to hand code (X)HTML and CSS at the bare minimum

[EC]

It's this. People that know how to hand-code know exactly what Dreamweaver or any other WYSIWYG does to code. Because we can read it and understand it, we know it can generate some really bad schtuff. So we fix it, avoid it, or simply use Dreamweaver for *certain things* to help productivity, but certainly not to write code for us. I have never heard somebody that KNOWS how to code by hand come in here and say, "Yeah I can code by hand but I don't because Dreamweaver produces equally superior code." I'll eat my hat if somebody does. More likely they'll say they use Dreamweaver's code view.

We spend countless hours learning best practices and often wind up coding by hand to make sure the code is lean and mean and serves our clients well. And then people come along and try to tell us we're ridiculous to assert that Dreamweaver isn't just as good. Kinda frustrating.

[chris_bcn]

Exactly - it's the reason why the "My 15 year old nephew has a cracked copy of DW. he can do the website." mentality exits. He can operate a kodak instamatic camera too, but you wouldn't hire him to shoot your wedding

It just continues to undermine the entire industry. It's hard enough justifying fees to clients who don't get what is involved without "professionals" reinforcing their ****-eyed beliefs

[ecsyle]

Exactly - it's the reason why the "My 15 year old nephew has a cracked copy of DW. he can do the website." mentality exits. He can operate a kodak instamatic camera too, but you wouldn't hire him to shoot your wedding

It just continues to undermine the entire industry. It's hard enough justifying fees to clients who don't get what is involved without "professionals" reinforcing their ****-eyed beliefs

I love this post. Thanks :)

[Emmanize]

I am not classing myself an expert, but I am no amateur either. I understand the code, but because of what I suffer with I tend to get things the wrong way around if I type it by hand. I tend to use the Code/Design version not just the WYSIWYG....in fact I never use that alone. But DW is very helpful as it can help people LEARN the code.

[JPnyc]

Yours is a unique situation, Emma, and yes I'm sure DW can be used to learn to code. And even frontPage can be used to not spit out such awful code, if you know how. The fellow who founded this forum showed me a page he did in frontpage and I couldn't tell. Usually I can see it a mile away. It was the 1st time i'd seen that though, so apparently he knows something few other users of it do.

[chris_bcn]

Interesting article

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200605/writing_good_html_is_a_craft/

[Nabz]

Many of the free online tutorials online offer out dated coding techniques...but none the less i think they help to give and understanding of the language... I myself learnt basic HTML which when i came to work with a proper coder i found was way out of date.

Being more designer inclined i sometimes use WYSIWYG tools to code a website if its for free.. But i have learnt enough of the coding side to know thats its by far inferior in quality.

From my experience in the industry.. id say pick a language and specialise in it. It takes time and god knows itr will be time before u are in a position of putting that skill up for hire..but probably worth it in the long run.

[chris_bcn]

Like French?

[Nabz]

haha why not...if u want to look at it as a verbal language :P. Same principles apply..You try learning two dialects and you're going to get words crossed over and mixed up..:rolleyes:

[chris_bcn]

you need to know more than one language if you want to do this for a living. Otherwise all you'll be doing is outsourcing parts of your project and earn enough for a can of coke and a cardboard box to sleep in. XHTML, CSS and at the very leat a good grasp of JavaScript - even if you can't write it from scratch. Some server side language is also needed. Heavy duty stuff is sent off site for me, but I can do basic things.

If you don't nkow the basic building blocks of front end UI design, how on earth can you sell your services? It's like a taxi driver having a car that can only make left turns

[EC]

Right now I have a client that is extremely web-savvy. In total we're building 6 different sites -- bandwidth, search engine optimization, and accessibility are extremely important.

While he can't go so far as to design and build a website, he does know what semantic markup is (do you? if not, you've got a ways to go before you call yourself a web designah), and he'll actually be checking the site with the styles turned off and making sure my h1, h2, h3 etc. tags are in their proper place.

Every line in the stylesheet and in the html must be lean and mean because bandwidth is a concern, and the code must be *extremely* flexible and easy to modify.

For me, this will be a challenge (a welcome one!), and I know what I'm doing. I can't imagine not being able to code by hand in a situation like this. If the client doesn't know any better, sure you can get away with sloppy code. But in some cases, I've had clients that seem to know a lot more about this schtuff than many "web designers".

[Drorain]

Know when to not DIY :)

[chris_bcn]

wow - a web savvy client - those are a rare beast. I'd love to hear how that goes.

Very good point about semantics. WEb standards aren't a geek badge, and accessibility isn't just about blind people and screen readers. You need to know what happens to your site in a text browser, a screen reader, in a browser with CSS off, with images off, with javascript off, with a combination.

Will the content of the site still be available, can the user still navigate? Those fancy menus might look great, but if the user has JS off or no flash installed can they still get round the site?

Is it structured well, will search engines like it... the list goes on and on

There is so much more to the job that making a layout in photoshop and then slicing the bugger into DW.

It seems so easy for people to call themselves a web designer, but so many seem to not even know the basic fundamentals of design.

Sorry for being grumpy about this, but it really annoys me

[chris_bcn]

and sorry to the original poster. You seem to have created a bit of a monster!! :p

[Zendada]

Heh, well, all she did was ask for advice. There is plenty of it here and that was a while ago so she should be ok while everyone hashes out this debate.

Another piece of advice. Everyone in the graphic design industry should have some web skills. Whether you are a designer or production artist. Everyone is asking for it.

While I can design and build simple websites, I would never call myself a web designer. I feel that at my skill level the sites I produce just fall under the category of graphic design.

[Drorain]

https://www624.ssldomain.com/comeplaytoys/store/cw2/assets/product_thumb/SM_bcpm-0102Sweet%20Baby%20Blocks.jpg

looky I'm building a website

[that mike guy]

I made a tutorial on how to make a website in Flash for beginners that might be of some use to some.

here's the link:
http://www.dieselshack.com/a_tutorial-02.php

It's great for people just starting out and wanting to catch up FAST.

The example site i used in the tutorial is pretty basic, so its probably not suggested for a final website, but its good to get the basics down quick without sifting through loads of articles and pasting code and trying to make it work. lol

[Drorain]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/245/baby_crying.jpg
i dont get it at alll!

(flash actionscripting that is)

[April]

Didn't get back on here til just a bit ago - been reading through the comments and I'm pretty sure I'm screwed. Many of the terms that were thrown out are completely foreign to me - I'm afraid this is going to take me forever on my own. I'll have to find a real live person to sit down with to help me figure this out but from what I gather, a class may not be the best option as it sounds as though they're teaching things that aren't relevant to what most web designers are doing now. I hate to get discouraged, that's not me at all, I really want to learn this, but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe this is something I shouldn't just leave to the pros.

[Zendada]

Don’t get discouraged! Everyone has to start somewhere. Knowing the basics of how to design and build a website add to your marketability. You don’t have to be a coding pro to build a site.

I think its the term “web designer” as opposed to “graphic designer” that has thrown a wrench in the thread. I agree they are different animals, but overlap on a basic level. I feel that every graphic designer should know some web, and I suppose every web designer should know some graphics/composition/typography/hierarchy.

[EC]

Didn't get back on here til just a bit ago - been reading through the comments and I'm pretty sure I'm screwed. Many of the terms that were thrown out are completely foreign to me - I'm afraid this is going to take me forever on my own. I'll have to find a real live person to sit down with to help me figure this out but from what I gather, a class may not be the best option as it sounds as though they're teaching things that aren't relevant to what most web designers are doing now. I hate to get discouraged, that's not me at all, I really want to learn this, but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe this is something I shouldn't just leave to the pros.

April, please understand that some designers will always be ahead of the curve -- technologies change so rapidly that it's pretty hard for even a college web design instructor, who is not *doing this* day in and day out, to keep pace.

We're at a time on the web where old practices are being replaced by new ones, but that doesn't mean everbody is *there yet*. It's a transitional period. I've had to re-learn my entire skillset the last couple of years.

Because I *have* moved toward web standards solutions (I'm not even entirely there yet, I'm still struggling and learning constantly!), I have a more web-savvy clientele at the moment. I'm sure that in a few years' time that will change.

What I am trying to say is, everybody starts somewhere. Start where you start, yunno? We just want you to know what goals you SHOULD set, that this is a game of constant change and learning. There are no "learn web design in 24 hours" solutions.

Web design is daunting and discouraging even for people that are wiz-bang-pros. So don't feel too defeated. You've always got people here to help and support you if you decide to go this path afterall. :)

[reuber1]

Learn FLASH instead!!! Ha ha, just kidding, everyone here hates it (but me! :D ).

I can feel your pain, though. I graduated with my first degree being in Web Administration...I have no farking clue what is what anymore. I can hand code an HTML page, with some JavaScript, have a pretty decent understanding of XML (though I didn't actively study it, I just kind of figured it out), and some REALLY basic understanding of ASP. In the two years that I got my Bachelors in interactive multimedia afterwards, it seems everything has "gotten itself in one big damn hurry" (to quote that old guy...Hatlen?...from Shawshank Redemption). I didn't know what the fawk an iFrame was until several months ago.

[EC]

Don’t get discouraged! Everyone has to start somewhere. Knowing the basics of how to design and build a website add to your marketability. You don’t have to be a coding pro to build a site.

I think its the term “web designer” as opposed to “graphic designer” that has thrown a wrench in the thread. I agree they are different animals, but overlap on a basic level. I feel that every graphic designer should know some web, and I suppose every web designer should know some graphics/composition/typography/hierarchy.

A web designer *is* a graphic designer. Just a diff. medium is all, different skill sets, different tools. I am a web designer, but what I *do* is graphics, composition, typograhy, visual heirarchy, and etc. and so forth all those things you mentioned. The coding and all the other aspects are just additional parts of the process, I don't just stop at the design phase and hand it off -- so I can safely call myself a web designer and not worry about whether that's appropriate or not. The definitions are truly, truly vague. I say just decide what you enjoy and work toward learning all you can about it. If complimentary skills are involved (prepress, web coding, what have you) -- all the better and the more marketable you'll be.

Specializing in one or the other is a good idea imo, (pick your favorite medium and get really good at it). But I agree that some degree of overlap is extremely helpful too.

[chris_bcn]

Don't despair April - you're in the enviable position of starting when standards are at least out there, and slowly being adopted (thank god).

You can learn from a great start point. There's a whole load of resources out there, and loads of help. I had to spend ages unlearning all my bad habits from the 90s and then learn the right way of doing it.

It might be an idea to get some lesson so that you know the basics and then just play and practice and ask for help whenever you get stuck.

If you get a tutor make damn sure he knows what web standards are, and why the seperation of content and style is important. You don't want to start learning the bad habits that a lot of lazy web designers skill designers.

Also if somneone suggest learning flash, run. run to the hils. leave me, save yourself

[Zendada]

Specializing in one or the other is a good idea imo, (pick your favorite medium and get really good at it). But I agree that some degree of overlap is extremely helpful too.

Agreed. In today’s market, maybe moreso now than less then a few years ago, web skills are essential to the graphic designer. Just like graphic skills are essential to the web designer.

[JPnyc]

Yep, Brooks Hatlen.

[chris_bcn]

Kinda agree - I think, as EC said that a web designer is also a graphic designer these days. However I do exclusively Web work. Aside from the odd business card I don't do anything else. I'm in SAn Francisco, and there's a lot of competetion, but the work is there

[ecsyle]

Yeah, but as a web designer, you are doing graphic design, composition, typography, etc.

[reuber1]

Yep, Brooks Hatlen.Thank you. That bugged the hell out of me, but I was too lazy to IMDB it.

[April]

Well, maybe I'll call the local college and see if I can talk with one of the instructors and make sure they know web standards and find out exactly what they're going to teach me and I'll let you know what I find out.
If nothing else, I can keep doing what I'm doing - and I hope this isn't wrong, as it seems I've opened an entire can of worms around here - just design the art for the web page, send it back to the guy and he (or someone somewhere) gets it up on the web.

[JPnyc]

You're welcome. It's a fave film of mine. The one and only James Whitmore.

[rajat]

Hi,
You can always read books, take people's advice and look at good websites. But it all depends upon your ability to learn fast. You should also have sound knowledge of HTML. And above all you need to have an aesthetic bent of mind. Web design can be fun and paying as well when you have the passion for it. Don't go for web design simply because you dont find anything worthwhile to do.

http://www.xponsetech.com/website-design.html


Rajat