Blueprints (symbols)

[Emmanize]

I am trying to do some kind of small symbol that will be placed onto my portfolio. It will be in colour when it’s finished. These are only blueprints (i.e. sketches) but I could go on all day re arranging them, instead of picking one. I do like word in word type logos.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/Fashy/Designs/EDnum.jpg

[aid4design]

I think 6 is the only one I find interesting.

[Silence04]

^agree^

mma esigns, what is that?

[Mynock]

It's E-Signs. She makes web banners :P

[morea]

I think 6 is the strongest too.

[reuber1]

Yeah, thus far #6. They look good if you glance quick, but when you try to read it, it gets complicated. 6 is the easiest to read, though. Try elaborating on that one. Maybe go up and to the right, instead of down and to the right?

Something I'm not digging about the font, unless that's for sketch purposes and you have a different one planned.

[Emmanize]

That’s what I was wondering because I like Words in Word logos. It says “Emma Designs” but the E and D are large in some leaving only a nees to have mma or esigns. I do like word in word logos but sometimes can be hard to read….darn…Ill try have a play around with some and make them clearer.

[morea]

logos - especially your OWN logos - are the hardest things to do.

[reuber1]

Something I'm not digging about the font, unless that's for sketch purposes and you have a different one planned.The letter E. The parts coming out aren't even with each other, the middle one is in a bit. Not really noticeable on your #6 though.

[Zendada]

6 has the best legibility. But I see something really cool going on with 4 and 9. I’m also intrigued with the shapes in 5. Looking forward to seeing this progress!

[Emmanize]

Yeah it is all sketches at the moment. I have tried a lot of fonts but to do this style it looks odd, because normally I like snazzy fonts. It will also be in colour so you might be able to see it better then, rather then it being black on black :)

But I could mess around with #6, maybe make other versions of it. Well in fact Ill mess around with them all.

[PrintDriver]

Reuber, some fonts make cap E's like that. The lowest leg can be the longer of the three and the center bar is usually shorter...

This reminds me of an eyetest chart.

[cjoe]

5,6,7 are the best attempts

[reuber1]

Reuber, some fonts make cap E's like that. The lowest leg can be the longer of the three and the center bar is usually shorter...

This reminds me of an eyetest chart.Yeah, I figured that much, I'm just saying for the large E's case, convert that to an outline and just stretch out the middle a bit, or bring the upper and lower legs both in a bit.

[Zendada]

5,6,7 are the best attempts

There is something to be said about 7. I overlooked it. Nice shapes. Good call.

[AlexNJ210]

There are a ton more ways i could think of working with this logo treatment. Think about shapes, instead of letters. You could make the D solid black, then play around with dropouts and negative space. Those types of things are always attractive to look at because they violate peoples expectations in curious ways. Keep pushing it. Remember the words and shapes can occupy the same space, dont try to "park" them all just right in their space, let them overlap but in smart fashion.

[AlexNJ210]

here is an example of what i meant. This is 3 variations on the same structure.

[cjoe]

i'm not feeling that distortion, alex.

[Emmanize]

Yeah I see what you mean. I could have literally have sat there all day and night doing different versions of this. I like this style because its fun to do, challenging and it can be eye catching if its done right Just takes a bit of fiddling to get it right. As far as the fonts go, it really needs to be a font that could allow text to be placed within a "O" or a "D" and to me they don't look THAT different. I am going to have another attempt today, maybe on a few of them because I am still not sure Which one to go with. I never thought of it as shapes to be honest, I just thought the "word in letter" thing could be cool hehe. But yeah I suppose some cool shapes could form from this.

[PrintDriver]

ALL of them still read MMA ESIGN though...except #6
Have you tried being redundant with the E and the D and actually spelling out Emma Design?

[Emmanize]

ALL of them still read MMA ESIGN though...except #6
Have you tried being redundant with the E and the D and actually spelling out Emma Design?

Depends how you look at it, or if you can even see it. To have word in letter it takes a bit of fiddling as I pointed out before. I don’t just want to have "Emma Designs" written normally though (wheres the fun in that lol), that is why id have it as a symbol rather then logo. I would probably have "Emma Designs" written in small letters under it. It’s a good brain exercise lol.

[lesliegraphics]

Of them all I'd say #7. The others are just to messy, can't read them, or something, they are just not there. Of course then you'll run the risk of being called "Ed," not that there's anything wrong with the name Ed, it's uh just not your name...Don't get stuck in a rut on this, explore other fonts, try some custom lettering (OMG not on the computer) then scan them on and work with them.

Seems alot like Bauhaus style, so investigate that period of design for some clues on how to make it work.

[yarusskii]

little problem, you are forgetting that symbol unlike logo has to be small.
make any of above variants 10pt high and you won't read any of Emma Designs.
i'd lose extra text and try something like that

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2747/de3ob.jpg

[lesliegraphics]

I just had an eye test after looking at your post.

[Emmanize]

Yeah but your forgetting that these are only 10% finished - so they are going to look a bit messy at this point. They will look nothing like how they do now when they are done by the way lol. They never do because I end up making changes as I go along, or change my mind on little bits....its just how I work. But the size isn't a problem; I always make 3 versions anyway in big, medium and small sizes. The purpose of this post is to just find out the ones people can see the best and try and mix them together somehow. However none are suppose to be that readable, they are like Identity symbols.

Glad I could be of service with you eye tests though :D

[yarusskii]

there, just to stop you moaning :p

Everything that follows is imho.
symbol is symbol and it shouldn't have any text to it.
And a designer saying that identity "shouldn't be that readable" makes me laugh.
how are you gonna get recognised if your id is not readable?
prove me wrong and i'll shut up)))

[lesliegraphics]

It's ok emma design, what you are doing is part of the process of going through alot of garbage to finally reach a good design, it's how everyone works.

about the eye test remark: I was referring to yarusskii's post not your orginial show of roughs

[Emmanize]

there, just to stop you moaning :p

Everything that follows is imho.
symbol is symbol and it shouldn't have any text to it.
And a designer saying that identity "shouldn't be that readable" makes me laugh.
how are you gonna get recognised if your id is not readable?
prove me wrong and i'll shut up)))

Can I just point something out (and this is just my opinion) and that is simply, I didn't know design has so many rules lol. Who said a symbol HAS to be no text, and who said that an identity HAS to be readable. As a designer I see in pictures so it makes perfect since to me that you can look at something and recognise it. We are creative, the idea is to mix and match things. Have you ever thought that a load of text jumbled together can make a design...it dosn't have to say anything. Some work others don't. Its "almost" impossible to come up with original material, but then who says you have to follow the heard of sheep.

I am not out to prove anything to anyone, I am just out to create design. :D If you can only make your designs recognisable through "words" then you need to improve on your creative ability. I am a designer so I want people to recognise the "design" not just text...if that makes sence.

[Emmanize]

It's ok emma design, what you are doing is part of the process of going through alot of garbage to finally reach a good design,

Very true, and thats what so fun about it :)

[morea]

it sure is! And can be maddening as hell, too.

Designers are a bunch of masochists, aren't we? lol

[PrintDriver]

A logo mark doesn't have to be readable, legible, or convey anything in particular. It doesn't have to represent what you do or any particular word in your company name. A mark, or trademark, or 'bug' can have words or not. It does have to be recognizable though.

Not everyone in the world is a designer or "sees" things the way you do. Hell, I been doing this over 15 years now and I still see MMA ESIGN.
There is a difference between being 'clever' and 'successful branding'.

But it's only at 10%. Keep sketching.

[EC]

there, just to stop you moaning :p

Everything that follows is imho.
symbol is symbol and it shouldn't have any text to it.
And a designer saying that identity "shouldn't be that readable" makes me laugh.
how are you gonna get recognised if your id is not readable?
prove me wrong and i'll shut up)))


Emmanize, I do agree with the readability comment here. Of course if you're a major brand like nike and have loads of cash to make sure every person that sees that mark identifies it with "that shoe company" then sure, who needs words?

If I can't read the name of your business in the final version, I'd have to agree it's not a successful design. It may be attractive, but it may not serve you well ultimately. I'm understanding that right now you're only working on the mark though, is that true? Are you planning on incorporating your business name as well?

Design does indeed have rules, that's what makes it different from just random doodlings. If you don't like the term rules, then let's call it a guideline. (You're not the first creative person to enter the field, believe it or not. lol I'm sure we all relate to what you're saying and nobody wants to stiffle your creative process.) Of course rules are meant to be broken by those who understand them. But rules are rules for a really good reason, just something to keep in mind. I listen when people point these types of things out to me. I studied advertising/communications in school rather than design, so I guess I'm always approaching this from a slightly different angle: There is nothing wrong with "using words" to communicate a message if that's the most effective route.

I think some of your more abstract marks like #7,5,6 have a lot of potential.

[Zendada]

Logos, Flags, and Escutcheons (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/articles/logos_rand.htm)
by Paul Rand

[yarusskii]

do you know what imho means?
I did not say that symbol has to be no text, "ED" is as much text as "Emma Designs". My point is, you can't use whole Cicero's "On the Ends of Goods and Evils"(lorem ipsum in other words) article as a symbol. It'll look silly.

loads of text jumbled together will make typographic artwork not design. you can also add shapes etc...

design does have rules as does typography. there is composition, usability, balance, rhythm, semiotics and much more stuff..
each has it's rules. good design is combination of all targeted for easy presentation of information. in other terms, you can't have upside down text on the website if you want somebody to read it.

just jumbling text and pictures together doesn't make any design at all.
as i said, just imho.

[Emmanize]

Thing is, when I spoke of rules I was talking about people saying silly things like “a logo HAS to be like this that or the other or “a symbol HAS to be like this and not like that.” Silly things. If it’s a huge business you’re doing a design for then Id never recommend doing this kind of design, in fact the more plain the better to be on the safe side. However I am not intending to be a big business, nor is this a logo….its more like a stamp image. This is like a small image that will go beside the logo, but it still contains all the wording of the name.

I wouldn’t say I am trying to be clever either…I am FAR far far from clever LOL! I just like trying different things.

Yar you said "symbol is symbol and it shouldn't have any text to it." why shouldn't it? Do what you want its your work. But by reading your signature, I can see why we have different views here.


But hey we all have our own opinions, you can't please everyone. We could all sit and design on one peace of work for years and still not please everyone.

[yarusskii]

Have to disagree, i think symbol is needed for when use of logo is not acceptable. any caption added to it makes it look as logo.
how i think it has to be: (presume use of symbol as website credits on the bottom)
http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/7131/mindaex6en.jpg

[EC]

you don't have to please everyone. but you should be working with some sort of goal here, which includes identifying an audience and communicating something to them. even then, yeah, you can't please everybody but you should be shooting for hitting a high percentage in your selected audience. If you put something up for designers to critique, one of the main things they'll be looking for is, "is it readable, do I understand clearly the intended message." If they're confused, it's possible others will be too. (What are you looking for in your critiques?)

I think the point here is, some of the marks you've created read "Emma Esigns" If that's not what you intended, then that's a problem. Isn't it? No?

Maybe 1 out of 20 people will get it instantly, maybe 5 will get it after looking at it for a few seconds, and maybe the rest will just remain confused. If that's what you want then ok.

I don't think there's anything wrong with challenging the statement, "symbol is symbol and it shouldn't have any text to it." Just do it well. :)

[morea]

it wouldnt be any fun if you could please all of the people all of the time. ;)

[EC]

Have to disagree, i think symbol is needed for when use of logo is not acceptable. any caption added to it makes it look as logo.
how i think it has to be: (presume use of symbol as website credits on the bottom)
http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/7131/mindaex6en.jpg

Then why can't a symbol have text in it? Seems like she's proving your own point. ????

[Emmanize]

I am getting abit confused now to be honest :D .

I do agree morea. yarusskii's last comment is why I dont think some peeps have understood what I am on about lol. Yes yarusskii I agree :D How the heck could I use any of those as a logo lmao!

[EC]

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo

[yarusskii]

can you read Emma Design in smaller variant?
That's my point from the begining.
http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/9524/ed6db.jpg

[typographics]

i think you should stop making these all together. they are completely pointless and create added nonsense that will eventually clutter whatever materials you apply them to. you have mentioned that these are not logo proposals, yet you are intending to use them for that very purpose...to brand/link yourself to your materials. if you dont already have a logo, then i would suggest you focus your time there. however, if you already possess a successful branding graphic...then just use that instead of making other disjointed "icons" that will undoubtedly break the overall cohesiveness of your identity.

[lesliegraphics]

I have to disagree on your thought about it being almost "impossible" to come up with anything original. I mean really, that's just not true. You have to work at it and it isn't so easy sometimes.

Remember that you are in a Communication business so you want to communicate. What you communicate is up to you. But you are communicating with everyone, not just yourself and other designers.

[yarusskii]

Agree with you Matt, logo must go first. and freelance designer rarely needs a symbol.

offtopic: like your work. some hanging punctuation will make it flawless.)))

[Emmanize]

Well I am not going to say anything else because A: you haven't the slightest idea what I am getting at and B: Your going to get at me no matter what I say. :)

[yarusskii]

sorry didn't mean to get at you...
show us what you come up with.

[EC]

Well I am not going to say anything else because A: you haven't the slightest idea what I am getting at and B: Your going to get at me no matter what I say. :)

Emmanize, why don't you tell us what you're getting at? If we knew your goals here that will clear things up.

Nobody that I can tell is "getting at you" we're trying to help. Critiques are not personal.

What I'm confused about is -- are you not wanting a critique or feedback about your work? You seem to get defensive and insulted when people give you criticisms -- so if you don't want that, you should clearly state what type of response you are looking for when you post your work up in the showcase. This is traditionally where people offer up critiques. The fact that you've put up numbered roughs is *definitely* a cue for everybody to start critiquing.

[lesliegraphics]

I don't think anyone is trying to get at you. How's about this, toughen up a bit because the GD business is very rough sometimes. This is merely a graphic design forum (one of the best of course!), however, once you are out in the real world of paying clients, when they critique your work, the going gets much tougher.

I think you have a right to your opinion on everything, but so do the rest of us. When you make broad statements that clearly show your lack of experience, trust me, someone is going to say something about it here.

[PrintDriver]

I think there is a major miscommunication here on the term 'logo'.

[prewe]

i dont know, but those logos dont appeal to me. they seem.. a bit plain and boring?
try a different approach, try something else than E D, perhaps you should, as mentioned earlier in this thread (i think, didn't read that carefully) use some kind of ED-symbol but let the logo itself be "Emma Designs". Experiment with different fonts, shapes and colours, and i'm sure you'll achieve something "less boring".
Just my thoughts, maybe i'm wrong :)