What should a high schooler look for when selecting a GD college program

[PrintDriver]

Ok, we've had a spate of recent grads on here who cannot believe the college program they just spent oodles of money on did not prepare them for the real world work environment.

List some requirements that you think the prospective student should ask about when interviewing at colleges.
Feel free to include web stuff. Just be sure to differentiate from print.

My biggest gripes are:

Prepress skills.
Does the college have a printshop in-house or one they work with where students gain experience in real-world print output. How to create files that will get through preflight to plate.

Alternate Print knowledge.
There are other print processes out there besides 4-color press stuff. Wide format is a field that is completely ignored in colleges (and by most software programmers - *sigh*). And there are other jobs out there besides corporate marketing.

Mentoring or Internship programs.
Does the college have a mentor/job shadow SERVICE that places students into a work environment. Do they have an active Internship program with placement options? Is an intership required (it must be if you want to get the experience you need to make it Out There). If the student is left to their own resources to find an internship, is there guidance thru the process?

Placement Services.
Check out the placement success of the college graduates. How many recent grads are working in the field within 2 years of graduating? Did the college place them?

[Jeizzavelle]

Thanks for creating this thread PrinDriver. I am not a recent grad but as a graphic designer without any formal schooling I appreciate the information. My boss has discsussed sending me to GD school and I'd like to know what to look for. I also would like to add to your list something to the fact of: What areas of GD they teach. There are so many differant aspects and types of jobs. I am a bit hesitant to go back to school because I am afraid it may be a waste of time and money learning the wrong programs and skills for MY job. (although it would help in future employment.)

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

Great thread! I'm working on an article on this topic right now (so I may "borrow" - with proper credit of course - some of the input provided here). I've just been named to the Professional Advisory Council for the Art Institute of Portland and we will be looking at this issue beginning with a meeting this evening.

Briefly, I think that students should additionally look for programs that provide instruction in:

1. The history of graphic design (The vast majority of recent grads I meet have absolutely no historical perspective on graphic design)

2. The business of graphic design (with an increasing number of design grads not able to find jobs following graduation many find themselves working independently with no idea of the business aspects of design - self-promotion, marketing, how to run a business as an independent designer)

3. Typography (not the computer-manipulation of fonts)

4. Portfolio creation and presentation (how to create a kick-ass portfolio and wow potential employers - most programs seem to be pretty lame in this area.)

5. How to take a complete thought and convert it to a well-written sentence (when a designer can't write a cover letter without embarrassing themselves, with numerous spelling and grammar errors, there is a serious problem - I wouldn't hire them. Writing for designers is becoming an increasingly valuable skill)

In regards to placement service figures: Those investigating this topic need to inquire how many former students have been placed in GRAPHIC DESIGN jobs. I've known schools to skew the numbers by including any grad that has A JOB - even if it's at a fast-food joint. It's best to ask for the names of employers where grads have been placed and contact them to see if those placements are the talented and skilled designers the employer was seeking.

- J.

[morea]

*added to frequently discussed topics, "education"*

[Zendada]

The first thing a student should look for is a scholarship! With the cost of education these days... and the taxes on student loans going up... its criminal what we have to pay to get an education.

Second, find a school with a certified graphic design program. Corcoran College of Art + Design in DC is one such place.

Other than that, a place with good weather where people speak english?

[mac.FINN]

I am a recent design grad. So hopefully my input will help.
First of all I did two Semesters of Graphic Design History, and I think it was one of the more interesting classes I took (not the most fun though).
I also had a class called Portfolio Preperation, and one called It's Your Business which talked about running your own business and freelance work.
I had two Typography classes (plus a third one called Type in Motion) Unfortunately they only really covered the history and the basics, and they were in my first year so I didn't really appreciate design as much. I'd love to take an advanced Typography course now and probably will eventually.

The web design class I took was a joke. Basically all I learned was basic html and a little dreamweaver. There was no focus on actually designing for the web. Ditto for the flash class - very basic stuff.
I had a lot of classes on prepress and my prof actually took us to a print house for a job he had going out.

In my third year I did a 7 week field-placement.

I'm content with the education I received, but there are still some things I'd have loved to do. Maybe a little industrial design, and definatley more typography.


As for looking for a school - I'd definately take reputation into account. There seem to be a lot of Institutes and such popping up with Graphic Design Courses. Some I've seen are little more than glorified Desktop Publisher Courses.

[uncle carbunkle]

- traditional design theory/skills
- business models/skills
- co-op/placement services
- pre-press skills

bottom line: if they're just teaching you how to use publisher & freehand, they're just after your tuition. call up alumni and ask them how they're doing now. do your research.

[Kool]

Unc touched on this but I think some basic marketing and business accounting skills would be good.

[PrintDriver]

Also at least some idea of contract law, copyright law and trade practices.

[PrintDriver]

Reputation and 'certification' are over-rated. A school can have a prestigious reputation and still have a bad GD course core. Almost any school can be certified. There is no certification board strictly for GD programs.

We probably shouldn't be naming schools here but I just checked out the core listing for the BFA in GD at the 'certified' Corcoran school mentioned above. Lots of communication/publication design classes but not one mention of prepress. At all. Nor does there appear to be an internship requirement.

[Logo-Mechanix]

Prepress, prepress, prepress, you can be the best designer in the world, but if you don't know how to send it to the printer it won't matter.

[PersonasBinar]

Teach INK and prepress!!!! I'm going to scream if I come across another designer that claims they know nothing about ink. We have NEVER EVER relied on printed pieces more and it makes me bonkers when a designer gives me an RGB file and is completely ignorant of the other half of the design wheel. To not know how to make it printable when you leave school is enough reason to ask for your money back.

[PrintDriver]

^assuming you passed the courses^
:D

[Eraser Nubbin]

This probably falls under the business of design, but I think simple things like presentation skills and a strong grasp of professionalism are key. Although these things may come down to the individual more than the schooling.

[mac.FINN]

Reputation and 'certification' are over-rated. A school can have a prestigious reputation and still have a bad GD course core. Almost any school can be certified.

I didn't mean school reputation - I meant the reputation of the program. I should've been more specific. Find a school that's know as having a good GD course, If there was someway of asking alumni I'd do that.

[icekitty37]

i wish there were schools more design oriented for web... i didnt find a program that i really wanted, but i settled with going to sam houston state this fall for advertising graphic design..

too bad i already am doing what i want where i work lol

[cmont]

Im gonna be going to Northeastern in Boston this fall to do a double major in Mutimedia studies with a concentration in Graphic Design. Hopefully this will be more geared towards the interactive portion GD but I would still love to take classes that deal with prepress and typography. I dont know of many institutions that go so deep into the whole GD field. I think that since the technology is always upgrading the teachers are spending to much time learning new tools rather than designing projects that really teach and enforce creativity. Ive taken my share of GD classes at a community college and was taught by GD professionals. Now I understand that in a school environment you can't tell someone that their work sucks... but these teachers never uttered a negative word... It was always oh wow, I like that. Even if the person just put some words on a page and embossed and beveled them. I think it would have been more useful if they said something like I understand where you are trying to go but why dont you try executing it differently? I think too many teachers have become afraid of being sued or hurting someones creative spark. I dont know, I got all ranty... I'll stop now.

[defjoe]

internship will teach you more.

work at a printshop for a semester.. that's better then any class you would ever take.

[balou]

I would recommend:

Graphic Design AND Web Development

Classes on running your own freelance business, sales & marketing/taxes/business law (contracts, etc)

Prepress skills - how to prepare files for different types of printing (offset/flexo/digital)

They should have a "real world" project. Groups of students working together. Marketing student sells to the customer and gets the project, Art Director and Marketing meet with customer, pre-law or business major writes up contracts, poli-sci bribes government official to get the government contract (joke). Project planning, budget, contract, design, proofs, finding printer, going on press check - the whole shebang from concept to finish.

[PersonasBinar]

Interactivity and web development are not the realm of GD IMHO.
Word to cmont's rant ..... some people have no talent whatsoever and should be told such. I think you should need to show some work to get in to the course to begin with.

[nyc_skater]

They should know how to make a good bundt cake and/or gut a deer.

[cmont]

Thats how it is at Northeastern atleast. However, they don't want to see just a GD portfolio if your applying they want to see a range of artistic ability. A concept that I understand but do not necessarily agree with. I can draw something on the computer but by hand, Im not so great.

As far as other schools just letting kids take the classes and go through the motions, they are creating uneeded competition for those of us who actually know design, do it well, and didn't decide on this career path simply because Devry was offering a 14month program to get your bachelors in it. I've seen way to many people that barely grasp the idea of design, who have crap portfolios, graduate with their Associates in GD and are lost when someone doen't offer them a job. It tends to be because their teacher told them how much of a good job they did on their projects in class. If you ask me they are being misled.

Word has it at Northeastern there is a teacher that will look at your projects and flat out say, "That's crap, I like the way that looks but you butchered the object when you cropped it out of the original picture, That's the worse piece of work I have ever seen, nice work." Imagine each comment directed at a different student. I think this could be extreme but something along these lines is necessary to keep people from being disalusioned.

[PersonasBinar]

those who can't ..... teach

[mac.FINN]

Now I understand that in a school environment you can't tell someone that their work sucks... but these teachers never uttered a negative word... It was always oh wow, I like that.

Not at my school. Sure in first year there was a lot of leniency since most of us were just learning the basics, but but 4th semester if your work was crap you knew it: from teachers and student crits. There was always some students who had to find the goodness in everything though. It really depends on the environment I think. I had a teacher second semester who, if your work was crap or you didn't do it right, would tell you ,very strongly, what was wrong with it and make you do it again until you got it right. She was a great teacher.

[cmont]

I had a teacher second semester who, if your work was crap or you didn't do it right, would tell you ,very strongly, what was wrong with it and make you do it again until you got it right. She was a great teacher.

Sounds like the kind of teacher I want to have when i head back to school!

[Eraser Nubbin]

Ya me to! We had completely useless teachers that gave everyone A's just to appease everyone. We went to the dean about it but he basically ignored us and told us the teacher was fine.

[mac.FINN]

She was great... it got a little daunting though - instead of giving you a bad grade she'd make you redo it (great technique) However, then you'd end up with 2 or 3 projects on the go... she was very picky too :D

[reuber1]

REQUIRED Internship(s) before graduation. Offers to upperclassmen first.

DAMMIT: I had something going, had a long phone call, lost my train of thought, and have no more input from there.

[Step]

This is a great thread!!!

Every time I would advertise for a designer or a Pre-press worker, the same problems would always surface.

Things they need to teach in Collage:

Interview:
Resume Writing and Interview Prep
How to prepare a portfolio
What to wear to an interview
Get a checking account before you get a job
The art of “Bringing your own Pen”

Software:
No! You cannot build everything in Photoshop
By the way your Photoshop 3 may need to be upgraded
Freehand and Pagemaker are good programs, but you need to know others.
Aldus doesn’t own Illustrator any more


General:
DPI, LPI, PPI – There is a difference
Why 300dpi and what does it mean
Offset Printing has nothing to do with an Epson
CMYK – What’s That!
How much does a font weigh (History of Type)


All kidding aside. I have interviewed hundreds of applicants over the last 25 years in Design and Printing. I’m amazed at how little is known about Pre-Press and Offset Printing. For Design, my largest complaint is the lack of real world experience. Students think there are no time limits. I will look at a “Newbie” and tell them there is two hours built into a Production Design job. I love the blank stare......

I have talked to many students on the high school and college levels. The “One Class” approach I get to teach what is in store for them usually generates more questions than time allows. I think the teachers should be the ones to intern before they are allowed to teach.

Side note – I was recently sitting in on an “Introduction to Printing” course. The film we watched showed a design on an artboard. AN ARTBOARD!! They showed the art of Paste up then it was “Off to the Printer” Next scene was a 4/Color Process job with screens, Photos etc. I asked the teacher what happened to the Pre-Press section......I love the blank stare......

[Gromit801]

Pre-press
Pre-press
Pre-press
Pre-press

BTW Step, Aldus never owned Illustrator, that was always an Adobe app. Aldus brought out Freehand way back when.

[PrintDriver]

This thread is mutating a bit but since we're on the topic of deadlines...
When I was in school we had due dates, but if more than a few people showed up on critique day that weren't finished with the project the teacher would POSTPONE the critique. Never mind that 3/4 of us had finished on time pulling all nighters or going to the printers on weekends to get it done when we could have had another week with no grade reduction simply by NOT getting it done. Grr.

Deadlines are for real. And designers need to understand that just because they get the file done by the day before the due date, the printer isn't going to get the job done overnight (unless highly compensated).

Time management and scheduling. VERY important.

[cmont]

Hey Step, since it sounds like you have a lot of experience in the highering of graphic designers i would love it if you had the chance to look over my resume and tell me if it's a decent place to start. And on the off chance that I finally take my portfolio and do something with it like, oh I dunno make it digital and create a website to showcase it. You might have a couple of things to say that might help a kid out, ya know? Let me know if you're interrested. I wouldn't mind having something along the lines of a mentor, someone who has been in my position before and knows what's going on, yet *sigh* I am the first in my family off to college and lack anyone who has any graphic design knowledge who can help push me in the right direction. I dunno just a thought, let me know if you're willing if not anyone else out there want to take up the challenge?

[HUNT]

Do they have job placement and what is the student graduate success rate.

[cmont]

Hunt who is that for? If its for me regarding Northeastern then its 98% of students that graduate have a job within the first 6 months of leaving. They also do a coop program which gives students a chance to rack up to a year and a half in work experience before graduation. And im not talking about part time see you tuesday's and thursday's experience (although some have it this way). Its generally full time employment 6 months at a time during which you take no classes, after the 6 months you go back to class. Then the cycle continues.

[Virgo Nightingale]

i graduated last year with an associate's in gd from a community college. that being said, i know i received roughly half the education i would have liked to have had. (i'd already graduated from a 4-year school with a bachelor's in an unrelated field - i could only afford the local 2-year deal.) fortunately for me, i absorbed just about everything they taught and i use it every day. they did require a typography class and i think that was one of the most important classes i took. i have since heard that it's now only an elective, and i think that's a shame. they also had a color theory class which was axed before i started there. i'm lucky enough to have a good color sense, but i'm sure i would have learned some useful stuff. as far as prepress, there was virtually nothing. one of my professors happened to touch upon it during my last semester there, and i certainly could have used a lot more training in that area. i'm learning a lot about it at work now, and thankfully my coworkers have no problem answering my questions. my school did offer an internship, but due to various circumstances, was unable to do it. i'm happy with the education i got especially considering it was a community school, but there's always room for improvement.

[PrintDriver]

cmont, like Jeff said, some universities pad their job hiring success rate by counting any job, not just those in the actual field of study. In looking at the online alumni database for my old college, of 15 people who's names I could remember from my GD classes, only me and one other person are still actually in the field of GD in any capacity. And I'm in production and the other is an illustrator. The other 13 range from banking to secretarial to auto repair (!-but I'm not surprised. Gearhead. And I say that with friendliness - the guy was a great illustrator/GD too!). Very strange.

[LilVixen27]

You guys always manage to know my questions befor I ask them. Brilliant stuff as someone just getting into this. I would really like to see the final info you come up with I have two pages of notes off this thread YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!!!!
Is there a way to follow this thread or keep this thread in favorates or somthing???? So even if no one posts new it I will still be able to find it?
......nevermind I found it :o

[morea]

I bookmark some and also you can subscribe to them under "thread tools"... but it sounds like you've already figured that out. ;)

[Cathy]

PrintDriver - VERY good point about the importance of deadlines. I'm finishing my BFA in GD now and it wasn't an oddity for about 3 out of 9 students to have their work completely done on crit day. I was soooo mad because my instructors (most of them anyway) would postpone it... just as you stated. I don't see how that's at all acceptable. There are many things in this field that one needs to be able to grasp in order to survive and be successful, and time management is definitely one of them. I will say that those who never learned that a project’s due when a project’s DUE felt the wrath of that when it came time for junior level portfolio review. Out of approx. 11 of us, only 4 were passed on to senior level courses... the rest had to retake a junior level class again, and as a result, were set an entire year behind. It was tough to see some students with great work get left behind like that - simply because they didn't have their portfolio together on time - but there's absolutely NO way they could be allowed to go on under such circumstances.

This career field is definitely over saturated, but I think that it eventually works itself out when push comes to shove. Those who aren’t willing to learn the necessary skills either in school or on the job won't survive.

[chris_bcn]

If it's any consolation once they get into the real world, it'll only take a couple of missed deadlines to destroy their reputation

[LilVixen27]

internship will teach you more.

work at a printshop for a semester.. that's better then any class you would ever take.

are we talking like alpha graphics or like a newpaper printer??


They should know how to make a good bundt cake and/or gut a deer.

** adds to her list ** thanks man would have never thought about that


Sounds like the kind of teacher I want to have when i head back to school!

you do they'r in this forum these guys will give you all you need.... maybe more :o
Thank you thank you thank you

[PrintDriver]

Any of the "quick print" places are hit or miss. A few will give you training, others just point at the machine and say, "make it print". Quality of print varies by franchise so it's hard to determine what you'd learn there without asking some very careful questions.
Unless you can RTFM yourself and figure it out. LOL!

[LilVixen27]

:D lol yea i could do that

[undressedmonster]

Prepress is definitely a must. I graduated from what I think was a pretty good GD program but the prepress classes were missing. In my case I went to a university so a lot of time was spent going to general studies classes, ie history, sciences, etc. It's great to be well-rounded, but I feel like there wasn't enough time for prepress classes and more advanced software classes like Flash or web design.

Also, looking back I wish I would have taken more marketing/copywriting classes. I'm in a job now where my boss doesn't really know much about marketing and I know only very little. So now I'm trying to teach myself.

[Ned]

Why is it that everybody gets out of school, and feels they need to teach themselves everything? Is it the education system, or is it life? ;)

Seriously, no school can teach you everything you need to know in Graphic Design. Every course seems to be lacking in something. Plus, how many of the instructors have extensive real-world experience, themselves? Many are professional teachers, not professional designers. This is another question that potential students should be asking when they apply. What is the work history of the instructor(s)?

Personally, I think there should be more specialization in the courses. I think we dump way too much into the term "Graphic Design", and especially "Multimedia Design". If you want to design for print, you should not be in the same classes as the fellow who wants to be a web designer.

At the same time, there should be certain professional and business courses which are relevent to all fields, which need to be covered. ie, Marketing, Copywriting, Project Management, and Media Buying.

[PrintDriver]

Jeff, didja ever write that article? I'd be interested in reading it.

[snagma]

I'm just a junior compared to all of you out there in the graphic design field - I have another 1 and a half years of schooling left to decide what i want to do in uni. At the moment Visual Communication seems to be the path that i want to head down so i was wondering if i could get your tips and expertise on a portfolio. Sorry if this is a bit off topic but alongside choosing the right college program what is it that the interviewers want to see? What should i include and show in my portfolio? What makes one portfolio stand out from another?

[Jasper7777]

Have you ever thought of going to school overseas. I’m in New Zealand and sorry if this sounds like an advertisement—I think more people from overseas should check out New Zealand. The tuition in the US is far too expensive and you can get the same education in an exotic English speaking country. In New Zealand look at Wanganui School of Design and in Australia, RMIT and Monash are supposed to be good design schools.


At Wanganui School of Design every student in the Graphic design programme takes classes in typography, graphic design, time based media (basic animation), Photography, web design, design theory, media history, drawing, and a pre-press production class in the first two years. By the end of two years they know Freehand, Illustrator, Indesign, Director, and know how to make a web site.


After the first two years students can take electives in whatever they like including- publication design, illustration, advanced web design, poster design, package design, font design, advertising, 3-D modeling, games design, animation and video. There is also a class called intern that all students have to take—where they work on real assignments for real clients.

So if you are checking out schools ask them if they will teach you all that.


The tuition for overseas students is 16,800. in New Zealand dollars- In American Dollars that’s only around 11,000. (depending on the exchange rates). (I read that the good design schools in the US are 20,000-35,000 a year). And the rent here is really cheap-- 2 or 3 students usually rent a whole house with a yard and get their own room for only
about $280-300. US per month. (when I went to school in the US my rent was about $550. per month and that was years ago).

Wanganui is a cute, cute, quaint little town - population only 40,000. Easy to live here.



The address to our site is: http://www.wsd.ac.nz/ -- there is a gallery on the site but if you are interested you should
email and ask for a brochure and our new CD of student work.

Also, I would also check out schools in Australia-- I think the Australian Dollar is also lower than the US dollar too and you might be able to afford a better school than you could in the States.

In Australia— I would look at RMIT University in Melbourne—RMIT has a great reputation and Melbourne is amazing.
I would love to live there.

Cheers

[snagma]

Thanks for all that information. I'm actually from Australia and so far RMIT, Swinburne and Monash sound like great places to be. I guess i'll just have to weigh out the pro's and con's for each uni. The hard decision between Swinburne and Monash is that Monash has much better equipment and facilites whereas Swinburne has a year of 'work experience' and i don't know what would be better in the long run. Its so hard planning your future.

[Jasper7777]

Those all sound like good choices-- I've heard a lot of good things about all those schools. I wonder what the tuition is like in Australia?
As far as what to put in your portfolio-- I would say anything that shows you have talent- even if that is paintings and drawing. One thing I have seen too much of in student portfolios is blurry photoshop images with blurry bevel embossed type. It seems like in some of the high schools around here, when they teach graphic design the students do everything in photoshop- even logos and type which is a no no. Would rather see a mixture of traditional drawings, paintings, photographs, and some computer generated work in photoshop, posters, some logo designs (not done in photoshop done in a vector program). We have accepted a lot of students based on their paintings and drawings-- who have never really worked on a computer. Talent shows no matter what medium you use.

[PrintDriver]

Can a foreign student do a working internship in New Zealand or Australia? Getting a student visa is one thing but getting a work visa, I've heard is very very difficult.

PS go for the program that requires you do work experience and gets you the gigs to work at. Experience will beat hardware in the end.

[style]

also try to choose a program that doesnt only teach you the design but also the theory like prepress etc... the nitty gritty stuff!

[Jasper7777]

I'm not sure about the foriegn student question- I'm going to ask some foriegn students tomorrow. We have an internship program -- so the overseas students do work for real clients- for a semester- but its pro-bono so I'm sure they don't need visas. When we do internships the clients come to our school. The teacher- acts like an art director and supervises. The students do things like 4 color brochures and posters for the "Wanganui Historic Foundation".

In Australia there is a Post grad program that is a set up like a professional design studio-- its either at RMIT or Monash-- the studio gets paid by the clients- and pays the students just like they are working-- and I know they accept overseas students.
They only accept work from clients that have projects they think are creative.

[tnowicki]

Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, PA has an outstanding design program with multiple disciplines and a lot of resources. There are letter presses and book binding services amongst other prepress tools, and there is a strong focus on DESIGN rather than ..."here's the pen tool make something cheesey, airbrushed and awful." The design school is involved/affiliated with numerous conferences and organizations relating to the design industry and they have design career "fairs" where you can network and interview with high profile employers. This is much better than a "portfolio review" where random employers with no identification wander aimlessly about looking at students' portfolios. The other reason the school is good is because the students want to be and actually BECOME designers. They are serious and focused which makes it easier to come up with ideas and collaborate, rather than being in a room of stoner hacks that leave 30 minutes into the class to go smoke.

[cadencedesign]

People ask me all the time what my major is at school. I take a deep breath and reply:

I'm a Bachelor of Integrated Studies focusing in Visual Arts, Multimedia, and Computer Science. Or if I'm feeling lazy, I'll just say I'm going into web design.

It's sometimes difficult to find an actual degree in Web Design. Such is the case here in Utah. You can choose to be a graphic designer, or a computer programmer, but rarely is there a hybrid program which implements the logic of computer science with the creativity of visual arts.

My school offers a Bachelor of Integrated Studies, which is kind of like a triple minor. It works for me, but I sometimes feel like I'm becoming a jack of all trades and master of none.

Regardless, I think the best thing for a prospective web designer is to just roll up their sleeves and dive in! Go on amazon and buy a few how-to books. Read online tutorials. But most importantly, get experience! Do work for free if you have to! It's the only way you'll really make any progress.

-Mike
Cadence Design (http://www.cadencedesign.net)

[Samakimoto Graphics]

I strongly beleive in career mentoring as early as high-school or just post high school. It's difficult to identify a good mentor, but not impossible - You could make your interest in Graphic Design known in those "What do you want to be when you grow up" conversations don't be shy to express your apirations and desire as at this point in your life people can be very helpful in getting you "attached" to someone who could provide this guidance.

It helps in gaining general background knowledge of expectations in the field, as you wait to join the college of your choice.

[capezio]

Posted reply on page three

Things they need to teach in Collage:

Interview:
Resume Writing and Interview Prep
How to prepare a portfolio
What to wear to an interview
Get a checking account before you get a job
The art of “Bringing your own Pen”

Software:
No! You cannot build everything in Photoshop
By the way your Photoshop 3 may need to be upgraded
Freehand and Pagemaker are good programs, but you need to know others.
Aldus doesn’t own Illustrator any more


General:
DPI, LPI, PPI – There is a difference
Why 300dpi and what does it mean
Offset Printing has nothing to do with an Epson
CMYK – What’s That!
How much does a font weigh (History of Type)

Do any of you guys with the knowledge and expertise ever consider going into colleges and universities and running workshops in conjunction with the design programme that is being taught.

I graduated with a BA hons degree 2005 as a mature student. We had regular workshops from visiting designers etc who were running their own successful business' or indeed were former graduates from my university college. We were taught problem solving by full time and part time lecturer. Apart from software basics the rest was down to the indvisual to sort out for himself/herself. Pre-press printing came in the form of lectures and visits to printers. Historical and Contextual studies took up one day every week as a lecture then seminar in the afternoon for three years culminating in a 6-8,000 word dissertation representing 20% of marks for final degree. There were 100 of us in every year. The programme was well run and organised with the programme winning design awards every year.

Maybe you could teach instead of whining about the shortcomings of course curriculum.

[reuber1]

I'm sure everyone here has the time for that.

[PrintDriver]

I figure it's up to the college to do the organizing of such things and to offer a curriculum that's worth the money the kids are paying.

As for time, there's always time. If the money's right.

[reuber1]

As for time, there's always time. If the money's right.Well, in that case that's obvious. However, in terms of a college, I'd imagine that's typically not the case.

[Kool]

Maybe you could teach instead of whining about the shortcomings of course curriculum.

Isn't that what we do here at the GDF. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[PrintDriver]

^Too right there Kool.

Guest lecturers are most definitely paid.
I'm sure some do it out of the kindness of their hearts or maybe for their alma mater though.

[reuber1]

I just got an e-mail from the graphics department head at my old college. He is going to be having some alumni get together in a few weeks and discuss things like this. I'm going to keep some of these in mind and post what they think of what we suggest.

[Blend Graphic Design]

i went to a small school out here in san diego - the perks of a small school is the 1 on 1 interaction with teachers. when i picked this school i was intent on meeting 2 people, my first teacher and the "career lady" as we call her. Meet the teachers and feel them out. But most important is the job placement department. if you cant your foot in the door an education is pointless.

4 examples, i have a friend that transferred from SDSU to my small school because he heard that we had connections with sony online (based in san diego) and that sony likes to pull students from our school. i know more than 5 people in my past classes that have moved on to sony and are now making INSANE money.

i say go small, because its all about the connections u make.

[Ens]

I'm still in school, but some of the things I've noticed are:

- Do not listen to most student opinions, most schools are what you put into them. Just because you hear from a person that the school is bad, doesn't mean it is. Most of the ones at my school who complain are too busy getting stoned to show up in class, then turn in a project full of beveled text and misconstrained pictures.

- Typography makes or breaks projects, there are far too many who don't understand that

- As opposed to what was previously said, newer is not exactly better. Learning the how to design properly is. Most of the time, newer features are just an invitation to bad design (Quark's text to box to single one out)

- One of the things I would like is for more OS related stuff to be taught, How to install programs on Mac & Windows, installing fonts, burning a CD. Although I'm pretty advanced in this regard, there are far too many people who are clueless but are there because "they draw good"

[jennull]

I actually started in the publishing industry on the editorial side of things and I'm grateful for that experience. I'm also glad I had the opportunity to learn about things like paste-up and films/negatives, etc...knowing how to do things the old-fashioned way has been helpful in understanding why certain things have to be done a certain way digitally.

If you can find a small newspaper that still uses these things, take a lesson or just watch for a few minutes. The knowledge is worth the time...

And in rememberance, cheers to the waxer, the dark-room and ruled grid sheets...and thank the powers that be that we never have to use them again! :)

[panzer]

hmm what to expect and how to prepare
2 words

Pain
cry
:)

[mdc1284]

OK so what about a someone graduating from college with a major in communications/art... they know the programs and have had internships in various fields with exposure to the different aspects of pre-press and production; do you think they should go to grad school for a "true" graphic design degree or venture into the real world to get more hands on experience??

[Virgo Nightingale]

IMO, experience speaks volumes over a higher degree. You can always earn the masters degree while you work.

[Gromit801]

Print Shop Experience. Drives me insane getting designs from clients, whose designers don't know anything about production or how a press works.

[vaughn]

I went to art school and studied GD and I think a lot of the education is based on theory, learning the programs, all the processes of freelancing, traditional design classes and gaining practical work experience through an internship. I did not get a thorough teaching in things like pre-press, printing and real technical issues relating. I think the idea is you can readily learn those things out of the classroom but it is not as easy to learn the basics of GD in the same way.

There are plenty of schools out there you just need to find the one that will suit your specific needs.

[PrintDriver]

I did not get a thorough teaching in things like pre-press, printing and real technical issues relating. I think the idea is you can readily learn those things out of the classroom but it is not as easy to learn the basics of GD in the same way.

And while you are learning how to get your pretty pictures printed (if they print at all) you are wasting client time and money. Trust me, you can do things with theory and those programs that do not print - or do not print cost-effectively.

I don't see how that is a plus. If a school is going to teach a trade, they should teach the whole trade, not just half of it.

[morea]

^ amen.

[Nevermore]

a couple points to add... I went to a 5 year school. Interned every other quarter year. Went to school year round. I was a great program, but like most people here say... there were places it lacked.

--Most schools are cramming so much into your head that they don't have time to teach you all the programs from start to finish, or install programs, or fix your computer... besides basic app use.... that is stuff that you should be doing on your own... there are so many books and online information out there..... i would rather spend my cash on design skills and keep the app knowledge on my own.

--PrePress- That would have been so great to have. Not taught at all in school, besides just basic stuff. A good amount of our faculty had outside studios that they partnered in during off times.... so they had good knowledge... but unless you ask.. they aren't teaching it during class hours.

--Internships-COOP Programs-- You got to get a school with something set. If not... work your tail off to get your own during summer or the like. I am now in mgt and have to hire folks... When we send our for a position... we got a enormous amount of recent grads.... when you looking through so many, they all appear so similar... so when i see someone that has outside experience... even at a printer prepping other "designers" files.... That is such a flag for us to pull them out to consider them.

the end

[jessicam]

From what I could tell, you got out what you put into it. There were parts of the program I was in that sucked but the motivated, driven students learned anyway. I hated 3D modeling, I learned next to nothing in that part of animation. Another girl, same class, no other instruction, is now making bank doing 3D modeling and animation.

No student should enter a program thinking they are going to get an education spoon-fed to them. Especially at a regular university, a ton of your class time is going to be in general stuff, and YOU have to decide to really learn what you need, or slack and get by and bag groceries after graduation. Experiment and play with the programs on your own time, get internships, develop relationships with outstanding students and instructors, surround yourself with media and art and learn from all of that. If you are willing to put in that kind of work, be motivated and dedicated, I would suggest that any design pogram would serve you just fine.

[norrie]

I always suggest that people seek out the best design studio in town and ask them where they'd go if they had their time over.

[TR1]

Hi

If anyone is interested I have recently posted a real design brief which you can download (I am a freelancer) over on my blog, and compared to a student bloggers brief. Gives you an idea of the sort of thing you will get in the real world

[skirklan]

Look for a school that concentrates your hours of study on design courses, not one that gives you a major in design but fills your schedule with other subjects and uses design courses as electives. The Dean at my alma mater, the Columbus College of Art and Design (http://www.ccad.edu) was so resentful of the state of OHIO requiring that his students study science, math, physical education and a foreign language to get a BFA, that he required us to go to school for four and half years; that extra half year makes up for the total one semester he felt we were giving up in learning about art. The only reason I got to go there was because I got a scholarship, which many schools offer to assist students in getting the education they want.

Now that I'm way beyond school, I know a key element in enhancing your education is the quality of staff. If your teachers are largely from schools that are not known for their design, or if they don't have any real world experience to draw on when teaching, your experience will suffer in the long run. Trust me on this. You won't know until you're long past school all the ways you didn't get educated.

Even if you don't have the money or don't know HOW you will manage to pay for your college education, shoot for the moon. Pick and choose your schools for the type of education you want (you'll only get this opportunity once in your life, so go for gold) and you'll be surprised how things fall into place with a little faith. I got a one semester scholarship to CCAD and managed to save $125 from a summer job--that's all I had when I moved to Columbus. I felt like I was falling into a big black hole of the unknown. The financial aid staff and the admissions staff got together and found enough work study and financial aid to help me stay. The hardest part is ignoring naysayers and negative thinking. If you want it, you can do it. I know; I did it, and I was dirt poor when I did with no help from home.

So don't let me hear any excuses. Find the place you want to go to school and do whatever is necessary to achieve your dreams.

Good luck.

[AFWoods]

those who can't ..... teach

This is not allways the case. I worked in NYC for 10 years. I've worked for Saatchi, I've worked for Y+R. I've also worked for some huge publishers, and now I teach.

Interestingly, I was just telling my pre-press class (that seems a little bored with talking about things like I.C.C. profiles) that while this may not be the most fun class they will take in this school, it's one of the most important. I said, "This is your bread and butter. When you can't get that job designing some really cool album cover, you can still find work as a production artist." I also tell them often, "You don't know how lucky you are. When I was in school, (early 90's) we were cutting amberlyth." I bet some of you don't even know what that is. GOOD! It's a worthless, outdated technique.

But, I'm rambling now .... my point is that the saying, "Those who can't do, teach." really does not apply to graphic design. You can't effectively teach graphic design, unless you've done it.

[onoyouditn]

An old thread, sure, but I just found it and since school's out and maybe some people are still undecided about college I thought I would add my $.02.

There are schools that offer 1 or 2 year programs for graphic design, and then you have universities with 4-yr degrees. If you're in a hurry you can check out the quick programs, but be sure to compare equipment and what programs they will have you use. If they don't include training with web design, then run, don't walk to get away from there.

A co-op or internship program would be nice.

Job placement services are highly overrated at most colleges. Don't let that be a decided factor on whether you select one school over another. Co-ops and internships will do a lot more for you than the job placement office, which primarily obtains a list of job openings. My experience has been that you need to do all of the footwork. They don't play matchmaker with your employer.

[PrintDriver]

You don't need web training to be a good designer.
And you shouldn't base your school choice entirely on the computer programs you will be using (although you might want to be sure the programs aren't made by Microsoft, LOL). School is for theory, not learning software. Any chump can learn the software. It's the theory of design that matters more while in school.

[onoyouditn]

You are correct that you don't need web training in order to be a good designer. However, you do need web training to be EMPLOYABLE anymore.

I never suggested that anyone base their college choice simply on computer programs. It was merely a factor to consider. If a school is using outdated software, or lacks enough computers, printers, etc., for students to use, they would be getting the short end of the stick when it comes to their education.

When it comes to graphic design, it's definitely more than theory. It's hands on. "Theory" won't get you a job. Presentation and skills will.

[PrintDriver]

I'd say 95% of the designers I do work for don't do web work. And they work for some of the top exhibit firms in the country. But I'm in a weird corner of the industry. You can be employable without web design. Trust me on that one. You may not be able to freelance as easily but you are employable.

You're right, theory won't get you a job. But neither will presentation and software skills. It's your portfolio, your real-world experience, and your references that will get you in the door. Even theory can be self-taught. No need for a degree even, if the talent and the experience add up. I'd hire on someone with no degree but with 3 years of real-world, a good book (which shows they know theory), and good references over a newb fresh out of college. Sucks don't it? :D

[morea]

I can definitely confirm that you don't need web training to be employable. It helps open up some options, but you don't NEED it.

[NotCool]

Has anybody here majored in Graphic Design from California Institute of the Arts. If so, how was it?

[EveningLion]

i'm not sure if anyone asked this, but while people were talking about teachers in art programs it made me ask myself. Have these people seen "art school confidential?" So there we have it. Has anyone seen Art School Confidential? its friggin great. all about the bullshit that is Art school.

[Jhihmoac]

This may or may not be applicable...but when I was in college for GD/Commercial Art...(Umm...WAY back when...and I won't disclose the year, but let's just say...computers had a MINOR role in the design process...) You were REQUIRED to take at LEAST a semester's worth af advertising/marketing classes to familiarize you with the marketing techniques utilized in the working business environment...This often helped in your design strategies to make your project attractive to potential buyers of whatever the designed material is pushing ...and isn't that what the brunt of GD is about? I don't see these type of classes offered in most GD curriculums anymore...:)

[Tea]

Interesting thread. Very interesting.


The one thing that I noticed that was not mentioned was the fact that college profs/instructors had/have do keep up with the software in addition to learning how to maintain computers/labs, etc. I did a little check and let's take Photoshop for example. The first version came out in 1990. Seventeen years ago. Just think about the archaic machine that it was loaded on and then the learning curve in order to teach it.

Then you have this explosion of softwares...look at the PageMill, GoLive, Dreamweaver transitions. Holy cow. Then there is InDesign, Illustrator, Quark, Flash. Plus there was an explosion of machines and operating systems.

The cost of the machines to update is not cheap. At our school we try and rotate our machines every three years, but that doesn't happen because it's often cost prohibitive for our budget. For the first time this year, in the 10 years I've been teaching, I will actually have a lab in one room (disclaimer: I'm at a high school not a college). Last year, my 9 working computers were spread out in three different locations. Try teaching 22 kids design that way! Colleges have computer technicians to manage and maintain the labs, but that wasn't the case for all colleges only a few years ago.

I remember when I was attending college a bit more than 10 years ago, the design lab consisted of only 4-5 computers. Now that's totally different, in fact there may be two labs of 20-30 machines, but these programs have seen some extreme changes. The basic concepts of good design haven't really changed much, but the tools have changed and they are very advanced.

If there has been one thing I have learned and feel confident in saying is that as a teacher, I know many times my students can easily pass me in their knowledge and skills of working with the softwares. I expect that. They have grown up with the technology. I introduce them to the basics and then when they learn something I don't know about, they share with me. When that happens, the learning enviroment becomes what it should be; no longer a group of passive students, who just go through the motions, but one where they dig in further and discover. Teachers are not all-knowing, they facilitate and manage and keep on learning for the lifetime of their career. The ones who give a rip anyway.

[peterbrowne]

I'm considering the GCM (Graphic Communication Management) program at Ryerson University, which offers Co-Op - probably do that at Norampac or another Flexo shop.

[Blanket_509]

I don't think it really matters where you go to school. In the end, what you get out of your degree/training will equal what you put in. I was an advertising major, which really didn't cover GD, but taught the philosophies and strategies behind good creative advertising. It focused more on being able to use many different kinds of media to create comprehensive campaigns unified by a single theme. As an elective, to supplement my major, I took a graphic design course over the summer at community college, where I learned Illustrator and InDesign (I already knew photoshop from my own experimenting). From there I pushed myself to become more proficient in these programs and also taught myself Flash, Dreamweaver, and Fireworks. So with my mostly self-taught skill set and education in sound advertising strategy, I was able to land a job within a year after graduation.


There is no formula for success here, but if I could do it over again, I would have taken a class in pre-press stuff. There are so many different ways to prepare a file for print, depending on how its being printed, whether it's 4C or spot, if there's a di-cut, if there is any kind of spot varnish, how many pages are included in the document, etc. I would have liked to know more about that stuff coming into my first job.

[PrintDriver]

There is no definitive pre-press class out there. There are far too many different work flows and every vendor will be a little different. And there are far too many variables in how a thing can be printed. But getting the basics and the terminology down is very important so you can talk to your vendor in an informed manner. Or know some of the trade lingo so when you go to a paper or design or sign show you know what you are looking at and can dream up ways to use the materials you've seen in interesting ways.

[urstwile]

To come in on the back end of PD's post just a bit, I think the most important thing is to have enough training in some of the pitfalls that you know what questions to ask.

[artistsdad]

This thread gets more interesting every time I check in on it. Thanks to all who have put their two cents' worth in--both questions and replies.

Here's another question, long way 'round...Daughter has been taking an Ad Design class at the local Tech Center 1/2 days while still in high school. She has figured out she doesn't like advertising and marketing (her comment: I don't know which is worse--that this profession thinks that people are so dumb as to fall for all this crap, or that people are actually so dumb as to fall for all this crap), but she really enjoys layout, design, photo illustrating, and she is surpised to find she enjoys coming up with the text when needed. She is unsure about college (real college or art school). The Tech center has a printing program available that she could take for next to nothing after she finishes the Ad Design program. I'm softly encouraging her to look into that, based on what I'm reading around here. She wants nothing to do with it, at this point. Do you think it would be beneficial to her to take even a year of it? She could do that and take some basic college coursed at the local Junior college at the same time.

Thanks for everybody's input around here, and for putting up with me asking so many questions over the last year or so.

[Riefnu]

I've noticed that Prepress is mentioned almost every other post. Would this be something worth writing to colleges and universities about.

Like professionals and Alumni telling schools that education about prepress would be more than just a useful addition, but almost essential?

Being a "newbie" student myself I actually know nothing about prepress at all beyond it has something about printing?

Cyan Magenta Yellow and... Klowns?

[budafist]

I know that many universities would rather teach "higher learning" like ideas and theory so would not be interested in teaching Prepress.

However, if you want to be a graphic designer in print, you need a working knowledge of prepress if you want to avoid being strangled by your prepress tech person.

[PrintDriver]

Being a "newbie" student myself I actually know nothing about prepress at all beyond it has something about printing?


<sigh>

[peterbrowne]

Being a "newbie" student myself I actually know nothing about prepress at all beyond it has something about printing?

Copied from Wikipedia
Prepress is the term used in the printing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing) and publishing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publishing) industries for the processes and procedures that occur between the procurement of a written manuscript and original artwork, and the manufacture of a printing plate, image carrier, or (traditionally) forme, ready for mounting on a printing press.
The following items have each been considered part of prepress at one time or another: typesetting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typesetting), copyediting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyediting), markup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markup), proofreading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading), page layout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_layout), screening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screening_%28printing%29) (of continuous-tone images such as photographs), retouching, page assembly (stripping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripping_%28printing%29)), imposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposition) (combination of many pages into a single signature form), trapping (also referred to as spreading and choking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreading_and_choking)), separation (specifying images or text to be put on plates applying individual printing mediums [inks, varnishes, etc.] to a common print) and platemaking (photomechanical (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Photomechanical&action=edit) exposure and processing of light-sensitive emulsion on a printing plate).
However, in most modern environments the tasks relating to content generation and refinement are carried out separately from other prepress tasks, and are commonly characterized as being part of a different process (i.e.: graphic design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_design)). Some companies combine the role of graphic design and prepress production in a role or job title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_title) known as desktop publisher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_publishing) or DTP associate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTP_associate).
The set of procedures used in any particular prepress environment is known as a workflow (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prepress_workflow&action=edit). Workflows vary, depending on the printing process (e.g., letterpress, offset, digital printing, screen printing), on the final product (books, newspapers, product packaging), and on the implementation of specific prepress technologies. For example, it is not uncommon to use a computer and imagesetter to generate film which is then stripped and used to expose the plate in a vacuum frame (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vacuum_frame&action=edit); this workflow is hybrid because separation and halftoning are carried out via digital processes while the exposure of the plate is carried out via an analog one.

[sierng]

My neighbours would probably think prepress was something you did with the grapes or the olives.

[tZ]

more then you ever cared to know about printing and more!

http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Graphic-Print-Production/dp/0471273473/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196316356&sr=8-8

[budafist]

My neighbours would probably think prepress was something you did with the grapes or the olives.

My uncle thought that a mac operator was someone that worked at McDonalds. :rolleyes:

[tZ]

artistsdad wrote:

Here's another question, long way 'round...Daughter has been taking an Ad Design class at the local Tech Center 1/2 days while still in high school. She has figured out she doesn't like advertising and marketing (her comment: I don't know which is worse--that this profession thinks that people are so dumb as to fall for all this crap, or that people are actually so dumb as to fall for all this crap), but she really enjoys layout, design, photo illustrating, and she is surpised to find she enjoys coming up with the text when needed. She is unsure about college (real college or art school).


We are all trying to persuade an audience to do something. Advertising methodologies are not arbitrary but, linked to psychology. Therefore, if she has that outlook then I don't understand why she wants to be in the industry in the first place. We all persuade – thats how we make money.

As far as your question is concerned I think would benefit her to take some fundamental college art courses. You say she loves drawing and illustrating so honing those skills would benefit her. Maybe once she starts learning how design works she'll better understand graphic design and advertising. I think there's a lot to be learned a good school that can't necessarily be learned out side of it. Especially, the mentoring of good professor and students in the class. Unlike many other industries the success of design is highly dependent on peer perception since, it is so subjective. Its difficult to hone the skills on your own and if your daughter can shouldn't be a top up-coming designer already? I'm not saying that she's not talented but, little mentoring can go along way. At a print shop I don't think she would get that type of mentoring but, more so technical info. Which is fine but, pushing beyond that if she wants to a good designer then knowing the rules and how to break them correctly is what makes a great designer and I think those rules are best learned some were the objective is the comprehension of them not just producing a brochure, identity, shirt-graphic, etc. Wouldn't you agree?

I Think Joe Duffy said something very important that I'm going to pass on: Everyone is a creator in this age. Its what you do with those skills that make you designer though. Learning to manipulate and apply them in a way to accomplish a objective is what separates designers from the rest.

[budafist]

There's enough graphic design work out there that you can focus on things like branding, forms, info graphics, illustration, photography without having to manipulate people into buying a product. There's only 1 job that I can think of that I thought was manipulative and that was for a spray on sunscreen. Playing on people's fears, professing to be the only spray on sunscreen on the market, that kind of thing. Hell, they even requested a starburst!

If you aim to make your design informative rather than manipulative then it's good IMO. Most stuff I do is informative.

[tZ]

However, when informing someone through brochure or magazine isn't it just really persuading them to do something? However, in this case your design may be become the tool rather then a catchy headline and image combination – no? Branding is the same. When creating a brand you access the market so you can better persuade the audience through the design to the brand – no?

[budafist]

Hmmm...I guess I have persuaded myself otherwise.

I see branding a company as a potentially beautiful thing. It's my job to make their identity as positive as possible withouth lying. I think when the lies start that is where I have a problem. I don't create brands to persuade. I create them to identify. My own logo isn't to persuade you to use my services. It's a face to go with a name.

I try not to lie in design.

But then to photoshop anything is a lie. Right?

[tZ]

When some talks about the target market isn't that in order to persuade them?

A target market wouldn't be important if the goal wasn't to persuade them- no?

I'm finding this conversation interesting.

[budafist]

It's interesting because it's delving into individual ethics. :)

I will not sell my soul!

I don't think all target market questions are to persuade the audience, it's to focus me. Target market is important for a brand to be successful, but the aesthetics of a target market wasn't created by us - or was it?

[tZ]

lol

I don't think designers shape the market but, the market shapes them and the decisions they make. Before any trends existed I think designers understood and learned what different people desire more then others aesthetically and from those observations different styles were born. Styles that today we link with particular markets. Maybe the correct word isn't styles but, aesthetic properties.

[budafist]

Every designer should study current design trends - whether it's to know where to focus a design or what not to do.

Some trends happen by themselves without a plan, others are obsessed upon because designers think they are "cool".

[tZ]

You focus the design so you can get a audience to persuade them to do something. It might be something simple like just reading a brochure or something but, its still selling. Your selling the material rather then the tangible object it-self though. The end goal is normally to encourage people to buy.

[budafist]

I'm pretty sure these days that the goal is to make my client happy. (They didn't tell me that in GD school that's for sure!) Maybe in an ideal world the goal would be to design something to make their target market happy, but we hardly live in an ideal world.

If my real estate agent client wants a pale pink and pale purple business card (contrary to my advice). Then a pale pink and pale purple business card is what she gets!

It's just never going to be displayed in my portfolio.

[tZ]

^

lol

… I can relate.

If they really want Helvetica rather then Frutiger then I guess I'll just go do it and take a cold shower later. Yeah… design is highly based on making clients happy but, thats not really what I was saying. I understand the clients satisfaction is important but, under the best circumstances with clients that appreciate use things like their market can become more important. A lot of clients don't really understand that but, some do – normally the ones willing to shell out the big bucks obviously. We can't all be fortunate to have those type of clients either so I understand what your saying.

[PrintDriver]

Copied from Wikipedia
Prepress is the term used in the printing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing) and publishing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publishing) industries for the processes and procedures that occur between the procurement of a written manuscript and original artwork, and the manufacture of a printing plate, image carrier, or (traditionally) forme, ready for mounting on a printing press.
The following items have each been considered part of prepress at one time or another: typesetting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typesetting), copyediting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyediting), markup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markup), proofreading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading), page layout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_layout), screening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screening_%28printing%29) (of continuous-tone images such as photographs), retouching, page assembly (stripping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripping_%28printing%29)), imposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposition) (combination of many pages into a single signature form), trapping (also referred to as spreading and choking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreading_and_choking)), separation (specifying images or text to be put on plates applying individual printing mediums [inks, varnishes, etc.] to a common print) and platemaking (photomechanical (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Photomechanical&action=edit) exposure and processing of light-sensitive emulsion on a printing plate).
However, in most modern environments the tasks relating to content generation and refinement are carried out separately from other prepress tasks, and are commonly characterized as being part of a different process (i.e.: graphic design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_design)). Some companies combine the role of graphic design and prepress production in a role or job title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_title) known as desktop publisher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_publishing) or DTP associate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTP_associate).
The set of procedures used in any particular prepress environment is known as a workflow (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prepress_workflow&action=edit). Workflows vary, depending on the printing process (e.g., letterpress, offset, digital printing, screen printing), on the final product (books, newspapers, product packaging), and on the implementation of specific prepress technologies. For example, it is not uncommon to use a computer and imagesetter to generate film which is then stripped and used to expose the plate in a vacuum frame (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vacuum_frame&action=edit); this workflow is hybrid because separation and halftoning are carried out via digital processes while the exposure of the plate is carried out via an analog one.

Today "prepress" just means "taking in a designer's file and figuring out how to get it to f*ing print."

If a designer knows what it takes to get his files printed, it will cost him, and his client, far less money and heartache.

There are other avenues of design besides marketing. Someone makes all those science museum exhibits or the theatrical shows done for internal corporate affairs or the National Park service exhibits... I agree that some marketing ideas hit way below the average intelligence level. Some so far you have to wonder "what were they thinking?". LOL.

[tZ]

or… figuring out what is wrong,lol

[carolyn]

If my real estate agent client wants a pale pink and pale purple business card (contrary to my advice). Then a pale pink and pale purple business card is what she gets!
cute, I deal with those exact people every single day :rolleyes:

[Riefnu]

I looked around my own school's classes for what would qualify as "prepress" and found that, almost as a after thought, someone added a journalism class to the requirements for a degree.

Basically it is a class geared heavily toward journalism majors, and not designers.

Also I hear it involves a lot of heavy group work for creations of several school only publications.

I fear the worst.

[budafist]

^

lol

… I can relate.

If they really want Helvetica rather then Frutiger then I guess I'll just go do it and take a cold shower later.

I like Helvie.

Now if they want Verdana for the BC instead of Helvie I'll be mad.

[budafist]

I looked around my own school's classes for what would qualify as "prepress" and found that, almost as a after thought, someone added a journalism class to the requirements for a degree.

Basically it is a class geared heavily toward journalism majors, and not designers.

Also I hear it involves a lot of heavy group work for creations of several school only publications.

I fear the worst.

Journalism has nothing to do with prepress. If that's what you mean.

[designstudent]

Why is it that everybody gets out of school, and feels they need to teach themselves everything? Is it the education system, or is it life? ;)

Seriously, no school can teach you everything you need to know in Graphic Design. Every course seems to be lacking in something. Plus, how many of the instructors have extensive real-world experience, themselves? Many are professional teachers, not professional designers. This is another question that potential students should be asking when they apply. What is the work history of the instructor(s)?

Personally, I think there should be more specialization in the courses. I think we dump way too much into the term "Graphic Design", and especially "Multimedia Design". If you want to design for print, you should not be in the same classes as the fellow who wants to be a web designer.

At the same time, there should be certain professional and business courses which are relevent to all fields, which need to be covered. ie, Marketing, Copywriting, Project Management, and Media Buying.

I am attending the Academy of Art University online. All the instructors there are professionals in the field they teach. My first two teachers are good... however I am having problems with getting one of them to tell me what to improve on. He likes to say GREAT JOB then give you a c.... a C is not a great job! So I have been pushing for how to improve and FINALLY (at midterm) got my first "real" critique. Howver my other teacher is AMAZING!

[JAGdesignideas2007]

Sombody successful I know once told me that college is really just learning how to learn. Then you go into the real world and do things.

That made sense to me because before college, most of the time you can ask people for answers to your questions and get the answer. Then when you get to college you suddenly have questions that people don't know the answers to and you have to find out for yourself (whether you arrived at the question on your own or a teacher gave you that question to solve for a project). The cool thing about that is you can use these skills of problem solving in virtually every avenue of your life forever. You need to continually build on them, but they form a basic foundation for life-long learning. The part that sucks is after you've spent X thousands of dollars and X years in college, and usually some blood, sweat and tears to discover all those answers that nobody else could give you, is that alot of times the answers you learned there nobody is going to ask you again! So you just move on and value the experience for teaching you how to get answers and solve problems that nobody else could simply tell you how to do.

[Gayle]

This is an old topic, I know, but I read every word. I developed a Graphic Design program, a 1-year diploma, for the online college I teach at. I did include a small amount of prepress but this thread has encouraged me to develop it into a full module. I'm very VERY relieved to discover that I've included everything else you guys mention. Phew! Thanks!

[natenation]

I would definately recommend looking for a school where you do actual project style work instead of assignments, and where there are opportunities to do real work and get experience. I've learned so much faster being out of school and having to figure things out in the sink or swim environment we all work in.

[budafist]

I would definately recommend looking for a school where you do actual project style work instead of assignments, and where there are opportunities to do real work and get experience. I've learned so much faster being out of school and having to figure things out in the sink or swim environment we all work in.

Does it really matter? Whether you do assignments or projects (I don't know what the difference is), you will still be learning on the job. No school will teach you everything you need to know. It's just the basics so you can learn more on the job.

[budafist]

This is an old topic, I know, but I read every word. I developed a Graphic Design program, a 1-year diploma, for the online college I teach at. I did include a small amount of prepress but this thread has encouraged me to develop it into a full module. I'm very VERY relieved to discover that I've included everything else you guys mention. Phew! Thanks!

Wow! What a task. I don't envy your job.

[PrintDriver]

I would definately recommend looking for a school where you do actual project style work instead of assignments, and where there are opportunities to do real work and get experience. I've learned so much faster being out of school and having to figure things out in the sink or swim environment we all work in.

Assignments for theory classes should be expected. With later projects based on the theory. You can't expect to find a school that is completely project based.

What you really need to find is a school that teaches the meanings of deadlines. I always hated pulling an all nighter on a last minute change in a layout, only to get to class the next day and have the instructor move the due date because more than a few students weren't ready for critique. Those students should FAIL. Sorry. That's the world.

It is sad that there are no apprenticeship requirements for Graphic design. I believe this is part of the reason the field is devaluing. There are not too many other professional careers with the skillset size of GD that just throw graduates out and say, "Swim!"

[teqbra]

i agree that college doesn't prepare students for the real design world. Most graduating students with no experience of studio work think that they will be producing work which THEY think is visually appealing. when we all know that the majority of the time it's entirely up to what the client thinks is appealing.
College and Universities should prepare their students for what the real world is like. This also applies for not teaching students the appropriate programs in the correct manner, mainly in web and print design.
I've just graduated from Salford University, and i'm lucky enough to have experience of working in a studio. I feel that the majority of my classmates will struggle in their first few years of being a designer, due to being underprepared and not knowing what to expect.

[Irine]

I can relate a lot to teh girl quote above.... :( My bad i figured it out at the begining of 3rd year. Tried to force mysefl to love it....don`t know

I am after a 3rd year and....I will tell you what i think should be included that i don`t see
You guys said pretty much everything

I will add just one more thing that i came up with after readong the Artist`s Way by Julia Cameron.
I know that you can say that design is not exactly like art. but that book gave me something 3 years in college didn`t.

In my institute they aways give you homework and then critisize your resoult. Not always they analyze creative process if it wasn`t right. "worng thinking" etc....i personaly think that a better focus on the creative process as well will give us a lot as designers. Good ideas comeing up is not something "every body has" nad has to have...and we depend just on THIS.

what happenes in math? in ANY kind of sience? they teach you HOW to come to the resolt, and when you come to it, it`s the right answer IF the process was correct. A good process creats a good resolt. Trust that. Less judgement for our resolts. . You can add at leas 1 workshop style class and you and we will find JOY in our creativity in your Selves again. That is what i have to say.

In Conversations with God God tells Neale:
When you give them knowledge, you tell them what to think. you tell them what you want them to believe,,,When you give them wisdom, you don`t tell them what you want them to know. You tell them HOW TO FIND THEIR WON TRUTH.

And in order to be ORIGINAL..You have ti find the truth. Who you are as a designer.

It`s too bad that the teacher gives you solussion all the time and you see a presentaiton of the project when so many students have simmilar elements. Teh mroe original students are, however, those who didn`t coe to class....

I see it now in my college and i know why it happenes.

That book helps me more than teachers ever did. All i personaly got form most of them was a creative block, fear, being stuck with no ideas that should be cinsidered as GOOD CNOUGH hooo....you academic magesty....i forgot.

We didn`t lear the histiry of graphic design and i agree it can inspire you. Today i was learning for an exam in the art of monder history, and somehow i felt i got a feeling of how the teacher wanted me to think. But they just throw the work at us and then expect us to know...

Now people say we don`t have the basics of graphic design. We were supposed to guess the basic rules. In typography classes first year we started learning basic principles like the page layout or "grid" or wahtever you call it, letter spacing, only at the end of the year, and the rest o it was crap like creating letters with numbers together or something like that.

I wish i leard it abroad and not here, in israel.

But that`s o.k i am working on it.

most of these 3 years in college were liek a nightmare for me.

The last one will be paradise.

[Gayle]

My job is actually awesome :)

Wow! What a task. I don't envy your job.

[teqbra]

i agree with a lot of the things that have been said on this thread. but some of the things e.g. learning the history of graphic design... should probably be down to the student to learn themselves.
I dont think this sort of education would be in my top 5 of things needed on design courses.
this is coming from a student who has only just graduated from university.

[teqbra]

i think an internship or WBL is an awesome idea, but its easier said than done as in my year at uni there was 80+ students. so i think you'd struggle to find enough placements to carry this idea out.

[PrintDriver]

If the school can't provide the services needed to give their students a marketable skill, perhaps they shouldn't take on so many students or maybe not offer the program.

If you are going to school for a degree, yes you need to learn the history of art and design. It should be part of the general core of courses. GD is not all about art, but it draws on the entire art world as a base. Without that base, again, you are without a fully marketable skill. You spend too much time reinventing the wheel.

[Once908]

hey im going to be applying to colleges soon and was just wondering what specific colleges you guys went to and how was your experience with the GD programs there

and since i saw someone who seems to do a lot of hiring of Graphic designers, are there any programs at any colleges you would suggest or suggest to stay away from?

im currently looking at doing a double major with GD and Marketing
and im interested in these schools
-NYU
-Washington University in St. Louis
-University of Texas
-American University
-USC
-University of Maryland
-University of Miami
-University of Denver
and some others

[AFWoods]

I went to the University of Arizona and Pima Community College simulataneously. The problem was the University offered the 4 year degree and the community college offered classes in Photoshop and Pagemaker. That worked out well for me in the mid 90's. I'm probably the only person in my graduating class who moved to New York and got a job. That's not really an issue anymore, as schools have had to adapt.

I went to NYU for grad school, and it's a great school. But don't be fooled, college is what YOU make of it, and where you go is not really important. As a matter of fact, you will learn most of what you REALLY need to know in your first job.

Good luck.

[PrintDriver]

College is rather important if you (or your parents) are paying for it. It's sad but true that not all college GD programs are good and you can't get blood from a stone no matter how much you want to make of it.

You still need to consider what the college offers, what the graduate prospects are, where the money is going and what sort of experience they offer. It is very possible to make a bad choice and to pay for one for years after the fact is not cool.

[AFWoods]

I agree that college is important, but not all of us can afford to go to Parsons, even if we could get accepted. That's where I wanted to go to school, and I would have been accepted, but it was just not affordable for me, so I made the best of my education in Tucson .... and when I graduated, I moved to New York. I worked there for 10 years, then I went to grad school .... and I'm less than $40k in debt for my 3 college degrees. That's not bad.

I was teaching recently at an "Institute" type school, and I had some real ethical problems with things that I'm really not at liberty to talk about, but it's still, like anything else in life ... WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT! I had some really talented students that went on to do good work. I also had some really crappy teachers in college, and particularly in an art atmosphere ... there is gonna be some clashing of personalities. I had teacher's I kissed their butt and still got a B. The way it goes sometimes.

Some teacher's have pretty hardcore attendance rules. I was teaching quarters, weekly classes, so you are talking like 11 weeks. 3 absences was my limit. I'd kick you out of the class at 3.

[AFWoods]

Oh yeah .... and I think Maryland was also an option because I have some family history there .... relative mighta paid for me to go to Maryland, but I didn't want to ask. Great school. I kinda regret not going there but I still don't have my Phd., so it's not outta the cards forever.

:)

[boylearnsdesign]

So here's a question, it might sound a little obvious but can never be too sure, are private art institutions better than public school systems say the UCs with their GD program offerings?

[PrintDriver]

AF, I wasn't saying you had to go to Parsons (I went to a public State College for GD). Just check the program, be sure it offers at least a modicum of what is needed to become a GD (and part of the reason for this thread was to point out what that was to HS students who just don't know). Or at least recognize the deficiencies. I think it is a sad thing for a GD program not to require a portfolio entry review, some artistic skills on the part of the applicant, and not to require an internship. Not having any one of the three should be a deal killer. Not having any of them should make them unaccredited but it doesn't.

I was kinda hoping Jeff would post hes mentioned research article here but I think he has it on hold for some book projects.

Boylearsns... you can get a decent base in a public school system if the program is there. What country do you live in cuz that's the second time you mention UC and I'm not sure of the meaning.

As I've said many times, I would take a freshly graduated high school student who came out of a good trade school GD/print program over a freshly graduated college student any day. GD is still a trade and should be taught like one, like it used to be. But, until there is a way to require a certain amount of skills to be called a designer, it'll never happen. Maybe that's a good thing. Job security for me. :D

[AFWoods]

I dunno. Some teacher's, even in private "Insititution type" schools can get really hoity toity. I used to teach a digital typography class ... these are Classical, transitional, etc. fonts. That doesn't help anybody trying to figure this stuff out. Serif, sans-serif, stuff I can understand, NEVER as a designer has someone said during a crit, "I was hoping for a TRANSITIONAL font." NEVER! In 12 years as a pro in typography.

So, I took what was 8 classifications, and following Adobe's guidelines, and made it into 25.

And I still see minimal value in type classification.

Of course, to each his own.

[boylearnsdesign]

PrintDriver: Oh sorry I just assumed you lived in the U.S. The University of California (UC) system is a network of public schools spread throughout California. Most of their campuses rank in the top 40 to top 50 national colleges in the nation. The one I'm hoping to get into is UC San Diego (UCSD) and is ranked 30 something.
Admittedly, I don't know much about what their program actually offers. All this talk about learning pre-press, I'm pretty sure UCSD doesn't cover. I guess ultimately, my plan is to go to a public college and establish a foundation before I apply into an actual art school. Though I really wish that I could just cut out the middle man and head straight to art school :/

[PrintDriver]

I do live in the States. Just the on the opposite coast. :D
Thanks for cluing me in though.

[mikefortuna]

hey im going to be applying to colleges soon and was just wondering what specific colleges you guys went to and how was your experience with the GD programs there

and since i saw someone who seems to do a lot of hiring of Graphic designers, are there any programs at any colleges you would suggest or suggest to stay away from?

im currently looking at doing a double major with GD and Marketing
and im interested in these schools
-NYU
-Washington University in St. Louis
-University of Texas
-American University
-USC
-University of Maryland
-University of Miami
-University of Denver
and some others


I have to be honest - if you are honestly thinking of spending around 200k(by the time you are applying inflation will continue to rise) on NYU for a GD major, you are CRAZY! NYU does not offer a special GD program nor does it beat other programs on the east coast. It certainly doesn't have one of the top GD programs in the country either. You can receive the same, if not better GD education at almost any other university in NYC. You always have to take into consideration, each university has notable programs for different areas of study. (IE: CUNY John Jay -Law, CUNY Baruch - Business/Finance, etc.)

Also, you say double major now, but once you get to college, you WILL have second thoughts. A double major is a poopload of work - I strongly suggest enrolling in a Liberal Arts program for your Freshman year of college, try out different subjects, see what is fitting, and do not make a decision until mid-Sophmore year of schooling.

Keep in mind, college is nothing like high school, it's tougher, jam-packed with more work, and if your professor sucks, it's up to you to pick up the pieces and get your shit together in class!

[cinched7]

I posted this in my own thread but then thought it might get better viewing here! you guys have some awesome advice.


Hey everyone, I'm new to this forum and
have a few questions. Have any of you been to UIC or Columbia
in Chicago for graphic design? Would you recommend those schools?
And also, based on the the schools' class requirements, which
do you think is more helpful?

UIC
http://http://adweb.aa.uic.edu/web/programs/?program=gd (http://http//adweb.aa.uic.edu/web/programs/?program=gd)

Columbia
http://http://www.colum.edu/Academic...20BFA%20GD.pdf (http://http//www.colum.edu/Academics/Art_and_Design/Programs/Curriculum_Outlines/Curriculum%20Outlines%20FA08%20BFA%20GD.pdf)

Thank you guys so much in advance!!

[victordj50]

have anybody here graduated or had somebody working for them that graduated from The Art Institute of (any state in the us)

[synthetik]

have anybody here graduated or had somebody working for them that graduated from The Art Institute of (any state in the us)

i go to the art institute of pittsburgh for my B.A.

online

it's not to terrible...if my scanner would cooperate...

tad pricey in my eyes tho

[victordj50]

i go to the art institute of pittsburgh for my B.A.

online

it's not to terrible...if my scanner would cooperate...

tad pricey in my eyes tho

i got to AI in York PA
the price is just way to high
i think i'm going to sell my liver to pay for all that:eek:

[synthetik]

i got to AI in York PA
the price is just way to high
i think i'm going to sell my liver to pay for all that:eek:

i found that it is cheaper to go online

i was gonna go to AI in Philadelphia....yeah not so much

[victordj50]

i found that it is cheaper to go online

i was gonna go to AI in Philadelphia....yeah not so much

well is not that much off a difference in the money that they get from the students

[synthetik]

i found that it is cheaper to go online

i was gonna go to AI in Philadelphia....yeah not so much


tuition isn't...but i save money on commute and such

[victordj50]

tuition isn't...but i save money on commute and such

you are right on the commute
i spend over 1k on gas and lunch per semester
since i live an hour away from the place

and those clases actualy sucks if you think about
they care more on how you do it and how you di it then the final print
and classes like webdesign and flash covert less than the basic i had to self teach my self most of the think that i know
i just hope to get a job

[synthetik]

you are right on the commute
i spend over 1k on gas and lunch per semester
since i live an hour away from the place

and those clases actualy sucks if you think about
they care more on how you do it and how you di it then the final print
and classes like webdesign and flash covert less than the basic i had to self teach my self most of the think that i know
i just hope to get a job

that's the downfall of most art schools...you gotta teach yourself things cause they only care about the tech stuff

[victordj50]

that's the downfall of most art schools...you gotta teach yourself things cause they only care about the tech stuff

no only that
you also have to do the projects the way the professors do their
if they have a style you have to do thing for their class under their style
or there will be a bad grade
i did An ILLUSTRATION for a drawing class (it was supose to be a free drawing) in water color and ink of a tree
the teacher saw and went crazy he said "i don't like it. put this and this and this.....
i just stood there and told him "well is it your drawing or mine"

and that actualy apply for all the other classes too

[synthetik]

the teacher saw and went crazy he said "i don't like it. put this and this and this.....
i just stood there and told him "well is it your drawing or mine"

and that actualy apply for all the other classes too

that happened to me...the teacher's reasoning

"In the design world you have to do what the client wants. I am your client"

:mad:

[Yossarian]

that happened to me...the teacher's reasoning

"In the design world you have to do what the client wants. I am your client"

:mad:

As frustrating as it may be, your teacher is not wrong. If it's design or illustration it is pursuing an end and not art for art's sake. Your teacher is doing you a favor in preparing you for dealing with the inevitable changes that come from clients.

Hey at least he's probably not telling you to add a starburst with Comic Sans text inside, and to make the design "pop" more. Or giving you horrible low-res images taken in low light by Shaky McGee. That's a special kind of joy usually reserved for the working world. :D

[PrintDriver]

My design teacher used to do that on purpose. The project parameters would change from class to class (it only met 2x per week). And sometimes you would make a requested change only to have her tell you to go back to the original idea. And she told us to get used to it. That's the way the real world works. Totally appreciated now.

What you had to learn to do, if you didn't want to make a 'suggested' change, was to argue convincingly why such a change would be a detriment to the design. Or maybe suggest a smaller change and why that would be better, not mentioning, of course, that you don't want to spend even more time on it than you already have.

[salsa]

the teacher saw and went crazy he said "i don't like it. put this and this and this.....

That statement is the best education your teacher gave you. :) I wish I had heard it more growing up. You'll hear it almost every day in a GD job. But it will make you feel so much better when you hear them say "I love it!" because you'll know it's true.

[synthetik]

i had a teacher tell me to swap out a REALLY nice picture i took for this terrible pixel mess that he got off the internet

i went in our prep room and literally cried

[PrintDriver]

You just need to grow the antler knobs to tell him why his picture sucks and why yours is better. ;)
Sometimes they don't listen (this is when a printout is worth a thousand words). But you'll feel better.
You'll get there.

[synthetik]

thankfully I'm done school (sorta) and my boss understands I'm the one with the degree

[victordj50]

That statement is the best education your teacher gave you. :) I wish I had heard it more growing up. You'll hear it almost every day in a GD job.

i hear that everyday either in school(10%) or at home(90%) :( so i stop showing my work to my family because they want it to look perfect when it is under construction

in school there is only one teacher that actually let everybody do what they want and he just act as an adviser telling you if the design my work or not

i had a teacher tell me to swap out a REALLY nice picture i took for this terrible pixel mess that he got off the internet

i went in our prep room and literally cried

ok that actually sux
i would have tell them about copyright to get out of that one ;) (or maybe punch then in the face and never cross their path again ;) )


Sometimes they don't listen (this is when a printout is worth a thousand words).
they would probably tell you to "make" the pic look good. that's why i dont do logos to my "raper" friend who doesnt understand that pic taken from a low dpi cellphone cant be logo

[synthetik]

or maybe punch then in the face and never cross their path again

oh i wanted to..so bad...SOOOO bad


i acctually wrote a legnthy letter after i graduated...not to nice letter at that

[emerson]

This is the best..........
You go to a reputable art school taught by Instructors who have real world experience and have achieved great things in the field. They teach you all the ins and outs from beginning to end, the rights and wrongs to good design. Then you leave there with a jaw dropping portfolio so that when you design for your clients, your client goes against everything taught to you, frustrates the crap out of you because you know better, but it doesn't matter because that's not what the client wants, the client wants it exactly how they envision it, regardless that it goes against all the aspects and rules of good design.

The best part is, you may do tons of jobs in 5 years, but you will only get about 5 to 10 pieces that you'll see fit to put in your portfolio, because the client will screw up everything good about the piece.


A good design school should have great recipes for prescription pills, because if you are anything close to a good designer your clients will drive you to use those said recipes.