tables versus div layouts...

[aantonsen]

I am looking for an opinion as most of us on this forum have both good and bad.


I am currently looking for work as a web designer and noticed that alot of employers are looking for those who can hand code and the use of tables. I have had formal training in web design and we never even learned anything on how to design with a table layout so now I either need to learn how to use them or look for something where I would use limited use of them.


So is there a standard either way?
Also using layout programs are out of the circle as for what a company expects, I am starting to do some freelance because that way I have some control over what and how I design but, do want to start out somewhere I can gain experience working within a firm. I am thinking maybe that I should look at larger corporartions rather then the ones who are trying to expand.

AA

[Ryan8720]

Who is still looking for table layouts? Those are a thing of the past. Everything is moving toward CSS layout.

[chris_bcn]

sAnyone still using tables for layout would be hard pushed to call themselves, or be called professional these days.

There really shouldn't be any debate anymore - of corse the debate sstill pops up every so often, but in my experience the table layout crowd generally consists of older designer (such as myself) who started in 1998 or so still hanging on to tables because that's what they know and do want to invest the time it takes to learn any other way.

There is a learning curve but it really isn't THAT steep

[Noonan]

Anyone still using tables for layout would be hard pushed to call themselves, or be called profession these days.


ditto

[Loopy]

I was taught how to use tables in school, but then I was also taught never to use them. haha.

[aantonsen]

Thats what I kinda thought.
I went to an interview today and he said there is need for both types of design layouts and without disagreeing I said yes some. but then this was for more of a coder position and not having knowledge of hand coding anything without a program, I may not be in the running for the position.

The company uses a new program called Ruby railroad??? anyway the interview went well I just am not sure I could work in such a pig sty of an office even if you are just moved in no excuses.

An impression is for the interviewee too.

thanks for all the input

I will do what I do and become a designer if it kills me......:)
AA

[EC]

The company uses a new program called Ruby railroad???


Ruby on rails. http://www.rubyonrails.com/

[chris_bcn]

You know EC that cheerleader smiley does funny things to me. I know it's wrong but I can't help myself!

[EC]

lol

[orkaknos12]

I wouldn't sweat it.. even XHTML strict / CSS2 still uses tables - just use them for tabular data, or anything you want to dynamically vertical align. Almost every commercial site these days still features tables for non-tabular data - look at amazon, google, ebay etc etc etc.. In essence, I like a solid mix of both div and table layout with a solid, well-planned css controlling it all. Use the stylesheet for repeated elements and style tags or inline styles for non-repeating ones or ones unique to certain pages. This will keep your stylesheet clean with obvious namespaces and easy to read. Web design is more about expressing yourself on the web than it is about the tools you use to do it like any design - it's like asking what camera someone used to take a picture. I've seen nice, compatible sites done completely outside of traditional web tools - the designers just know the right standards to break and when. The only people who are interested in your code are a vast minority of your traffic. Make it look good, make it interoperable among browsers and you're golden. The reason an employer looks for certain skills is because they are not wise to new standards or they're looking for upkeep on older pages, so if you think you can hack it put in a resume and do your homework.

[FroZ]

I am a bit from the old school, when I started to learn HTML in the 96-97, almost all was put into tables.. it seems a good idea at the moment if u have no other option.. As many designers nowadays have to adapt to new regulations it's a bit hard to use css without learning it first... I try to gain my knowledge on the way.. It's hard but it's working till now. I don't wanna depend on tables in everything I do...

[xplod_ldg]

Table design is kinda out of fashion although is easier than "div tag" coding. CSS is harder but it's the future. The mix of both table and divs I think, for the moment at least is preferable though.

[chris_bcn]

Table design is kinda out of fashion although is easier than "div tag" coding. CSS is harder but it's the future. The mix of both table and divs I think, for the moment at least is preferable though.

:confused:

what is "div coding"/ It's HTML!!!!!!!!! You mean well written semantic HTML I think.

Writting good HTML isn't easy - it's a craft and one that needs to be learned and loved to do well

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200605/writing_good_html_is_a_craft/
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200511/a_web_professional_can_never_stop_learning/

CSS isn't hard - there's a learning curve and many bumps in the road. It takes time and effort but it certainly isn't difficult!

It's just laziness and bloodymindedness that stops people from learning. In this job you have to update your skills ALL THE TIME. You never, ever stop learning. I see so many "pros" who have their comfort zone and don't want to leave it.



In 2001/2002 hyrbid layouts were used. It's 2006 for the love of Pete. How come this is even a debate. Mind you I shouldn't complain really - the fewer "professionals" out there that don't know how to do the job poperly makes it easier for me to get work!

[JPnyc]

But I know CSS and still use tables for non-tabular displays sometimes. You'll find that there are still corporations that use them.

Part of the problem with using tables for layout was that those using them didn't know HOW to use them. Nesting tables within tables when one properly configured one would've sufficed. That's what made the code a nightmare to decipher.

[xplod_ldg]

Tableless design implies the use of div tags. Div coding is the use of div tags instead of tables.

[Emmanize]

I only use the term "div" because so many people use tables; if I say HTML they will assume "Tables". But in the future I will use Chris's words "Well written semantic HTML" :D

[tZ]

XHTML vs. HTML should be the argument.

XHTML is a increasinly stricter language then HTML.

It requires the use of well written semantic markup where as, HTML really doesn't require it.

If you want to see some fantastic tables/HTML design visit:

www.deepblue.com

they know how to use tables,lol.

However, in this day and age using HTML is like picking a pinto over a corvette.

[chris_bcn]

There's absolutely no reason to use XHTML versus HTML as long as you're using a strict doctype. Unless you're serving up the pages as XML rather than text/html - only a couple of browser support it though at the moment

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200501/the_perils_of_using_xhtml_properly/

It's a tricky thing to use XHTML properly

I use XHTML doctype as it forces me to close all my tags and helps me code well, but there's no difference between them. In fact there are very good arguments for using HTML rather than XHTML

[ecsyle]

I think most people just assume that you replace table cells with divs...

That really isn't how you do it. "Its a complete paradigm shift in engaging website user interface design & development." Semantic web is a good thing, separation of content, presentation, and behaviors into manageable, reusable components, available on multiple platforms and devices.

There is no table vs div layouts. There really is not a debate there. Its a complete misuse of the tag :/

I will admit that I overuse the div tag, but I am making a conscious effort to remedy that.


Tableless design implies the use of div tags. Div coding is the use of div tags instead of tables.

haha. div hell.

This post brought to you in part by a grant from a web2.0 bullshit generator :)

[chris_bcn]

This post brought to you in part by a grant from a web2.0 bullshit generator :)


haha :D

[tZ]

chris_bcn wrote:
There's absolutely no reason to use XHTML versus HTML as long as you're using a strict doctype. Unless you're serving up the pages as XML rather than text/html - only a couple of browser support it though at the moment

hmm… didn't know that.

I use XHTML 1.0 strict.

So basically, HTML allows more room for error then XHTML becasue XHTML requires you to close tags and such.

However, I read at W3c XHTML is based on the concept of seperating content from presentation where as HTML is strcitly based on presentation. Is this wrong then?

[chris_bcn]

That really isn't how you do it. "Its a complete paradigm shift in engaging website user interface design & development." Semantic web is a good thing, separation of content, presentation, and behaviors into manageable, reusable components, available on multiple platforms and devices.
:)

That's a very important point. Replacing table tags with divs will lead to a very nast case of divitis - nasty litte rash it is

[JPnyc]

No, it's not wrong. But you can't put javascript into tags anymore in XHTML strict. That's a serious reason not to use it right there. Sometimes it's the most efficient method, and it runs faster as well.

[tZ]

However, if you put javascript in the body of a document isn't that theretically- obtrusive?

All though, I get what your saying.

For a easy way out then XHTML isn't the best suited for using javascript basically.

[JPnyc]

Well my view has always been, whatever achieves the objective in the least amount of characters is best. In this case, usually it also will run faster. The fewer removed references you have to make, the less the browser has to run back and forth to interpret. So if you code inside a tag using the "this" keyword, the browser makes just one stop.

[ecsyle]

I don't believe your website should depend on javascript for anything. Javascript should merely enhance the users experience.

But that is just my opinion. I also hate flash sites.

[wienerdog]

That's a very important point. Replacing table tags with divs will lead to a very nast case of divitis - nasty litte rash it is

That's my biggest problem. I'm a print designer who dabled in web design during the Table Layout days, and have been trying to get a hold on CSS. I'm getting good with text styles, but layout still eludes me. I've made a mess of the code on my company's site and am left with DIV tags and classes everywhere. My CSS file is a 917-line mess (there are lines for space, but still).