Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Should I take Web Graphics continuing education classes this fall?
wienerdog
08-21-2006, 05:36 PM
I know there's a few web and graphic designers here, so I thought I'd put this out there and see what people think. I am a graphic designer that has a novice-level of knowledge in working with web design. I am somewhat familar with some HTML coding, and am starting to play with CSS.
I have a degree in Graphic Design and am thinking of taking some Web Graphic Design Continuing Education courses at the local branch of Penn State (where I graduated from).
They have four classes for about $400-500 each to complete a Web Graphics Design Certificate. I get a 10% discount for being a PSU grad.
The classes cover:
* Dreamweaver/Fireworks (I vaguely know Dreamweaver)
* Java Scripting (of which I know next to nothing)
* Flash (I'm at a very intro level)
* Photoshop for the WWW (I think I know PS well enough for the web)
Should I go ahead and take all the courses? Will a certificate look good on my resume to help get web design work?
I know it's cheaper to get books on the subject, but my lack of discipline will lead to me not getting things done very well.
morea
08-21-2006, 05:39 PM
ask the magic 8 ball! (http://www.indra.com/8ball/front.html)
other than possibly the javascript course, the others are not classes that would impress me personally if I was considering your resume, I'd worry that your foundation was too software-focused. (I can't speak for other employers).
i also worry about the level of dilution and *skimming* involved in these courses. I'd prefer to see something that involves just html & css, rather than the jack of all trades analargy.
like EC said, i'd worry that they concentrate too much on software. Expanding on that, i'd worry that they'd be too focused on
- How to setup your ftp settings in dreamweaver
- How to manage the file browser
- How to edit assets
- How to use the auto css style sheet helper to autofil your CSS
- How to use auto....
you get the picture.
I'd love to see a course that says 6 week course in perfect standards compliant design using nothing but notepad and windows explorer for ftp and a copy of firefox - then i'd know that they weren't reading tutorials out of the macrodobe book the night before the lecture.
my 2p
chris_bcn
08-21-2006, 06:24 PM
It does seem to be increasingly important to be very good at one area, rather than a jack of all trades, master of none.
If I was looking at resume I would look for
evidence of CSS and (X)HTML. The HTML would have to be semantic and as free of classes an IDs as possible. I would want to evidence of a knowledge of cross browser problems and evidence you know how to fix them.
Javascript ability - unobtrusive javascript would be essential
Anything else would just be bonus - maybe some PHP.
Having Dreamweaver / GoLive / Frontpage would not help necessarily your cause. I'd always want someone who could hand code
I find that I get far more work by having advanced HTML and CSS skills. It's a commodity that is in demand at the moment, and hopefull will continue in to the future
wienerdog
08-21-2006, 06:42 PM
So do designers even use programs like Dreamweaver/GoLive then? It seems there is still a division between those who are coders, using text editors to design their sites, and there are more visual designers, those spending more time on the presentation graphics for a site and less worried about the coding. There doesn't seem to be a lot of people doing both really well, and I'm wondering if that's because there's too much to know for each end of things?
How good are the learning materials at Lynda.com? They mention their materials are for training for those that are from "the point of view of creative, visual people rather than developers or programmers."
What if I don't want to be a coding machine? Is there a place for me in web design that makes use of my design and illustration skills?
JPnyc
08-21-2006, 06:48 PM
There are places that use screamweaver. I saw a handful of such jobs when I was searching a few yrs ago. If you work for yourself, then you can use whatever you like. It's not likely the client will know the difference. But with a large co. that has a web presence and an I.T. dept. I would say no, they want hand coding.
chris_bcn
08-21-2006, 06:51 PM
lynda.com is a really good resource. I joined a while back - but don't have the time to use it as much as I would like.
No professional web designer worth his or her salt would use a WYSIWYG editor in design view. Ever.
I have recently started to use DW again (because topstyle has develop a weird bug on my machine where by even if you click on another program on the task bar the focus doesn't leave Topstyle until you click it again - very annoying and I got bored of it) and DW8 is a very good editor - but only in code only view.
This makes it a very expensive HTML editor.
It's not about coding versus designing - it's the same thing. I'm a designer not a developer. I don't want to code - I know enough PHP to get myself into trouble and no more, but I recognise the importance of semantic, well written HTML, and how important the seperation of content and style is. It's a basic requirement for a web designer these days - it's part of the design, as important as the visual UI
As I say, no good designer produces pages in a point and click manner
wienerdog
08-21-2006, 07:09 PM
lynda.com is a really good resource. I joined a while back - but don't have the time to use it as much as I would like.
No professional web designer worth his or her salt would use a WYSIWYG editor in design view. Ever.
I have recently started to use DW again (because topstyle has develop a weird bug on my machine where by even if you click on another program on the task bar the focus doesn't leave Topstyle until you click it again - very annoying and I got bored of it) and DW8 is a very good editor - but only in code only view.
This makes it a very expensive HTML editor.
It's not about coding versus designing - it's the same thing. I'm a designer not a developer. I don't want to code - I know enough PHP to get myself into trouble and no more, but I recognise the importance of semantic, well written HTML, and how important the seperation of content and style is. It's a basic requirement for a web designer these days - it's part of the design, as important as the visual UI
As I say, no good designer produces pages in a point and click manner
I totally get that, and would never point-and-click my way through a web design these days. That said, I DO use Dreamweaver in Code/Design split view a LOT to learn what I'm doing, and how it affects what I want to happen. In fact, I think that can be really helpful in learning HTML and design code.
I'm just wondering where you draw the line of what is expected in web design. Maybe I'm even asking what "Web Design" is today vs. "Web Developer" to determine if I even want to jump deeper into web. I still love print, but the job opportunities and skills interest me enough to want to pursue it.
I still want to spend more of my time creating a design visually, sketching out thumbnails and make use of a creative process and not wind up feeling like I'm code-checking all the time and feel like I'm part of an IT dept.
chris_bcn
08-21-2006, 07:13 PM
A web designer generally creates the information architecture of the site, defines the visual UI and then builds the site in valid, semantic HTML and CSS (well they should at any rate!)
A web developer generally builds the backend - server side scripting (PHP, ASP.net RoR etc) and does the whole databse thing. They are generally paler than web designers as they don't get out much, and generally roll their eyes and get annoyed by designers
chris_bcn
08-21-2006, 07:15 PM
I still want to spend more of my time creating a design visually, sketching out thumbnails and make use of a creative process and not wind up feeling like I'm code-checking all the time and feel like I'm part of an IT dept.
It's part and parcel of the job - all I do is validate my site regularly - takes seconds and and often any errors in rendering in teh browser is dure to invalid code.
The big thing to remember is that HTML pages are NOT print pages but in HTML. It's a completely different beast. A lot of print designers fall into that trap.
pretty good article here - http://www.netmag.co.uk/zine/design-tutorials/20-pro-tips
wienerdog
08-21-2006, 07:20 PM
A web designer generally creates the information architecture of the site, defines the visual UI and then builds the site in valid, semantic HTML and CSS (well they should at any rate!)
A web developer generally builds the backend - server side scripting (PHP, ASP.net RoR etc) and does the whole databse thing. They are generally paler than web designers as they don't get out much, and generally roll their eyes and get annoyed by designers
Great, that clears things up for me a bit. I know this debate has been raging for a while, and while I didn't intend to revisit it, my questioning what I should expect to know as a designer will help me decide if I should pursue more interactive design skills. I think I may decide to take the classes if my employer is willing to pick up some of the tab, it'll still be worth my time to take a Dreamweaver/Fireworks class and the JavaScript class.
But the Lynda.com materials may even be a better learning resource that I can deduct from taxes or ask my employer to assist me with to further my skills. I really respect the opinions of those on this forum because you guys have never steered me in the wrong direction in terms of best practices. There's always a war between that, client needs, my skills, and deadlines. :)
I'm also seriously overwhelmed by how much it feels like I need to learn. How much of HTML and CSS is covered in school if one majors in Web Design? Do most web designers purchase resources, books, etc. to keep up with the latest best practices?
JPnyc
08-21-2006, 07:44 PM
In my experience schools provide a foundation, but you probably won't come out the other end a seasoned developer. That takes experience. But you'll know enough to get an entry level job.
In my experience schools provide a foundation, but you probably won't come out the other end a seasoned developer. That takes experience. But you'll know enough to get an entry level job.
in the UK, i know a number of Universities that turn out incredibly talented coders from outset, mainly because they offer the opportunity to explore a variety of languages, but have the facilities to cater for each students individuals tastes.
This may, however, is more often the case of backend/server side people or flash for example, areas that are much more unique. Nowadays, anyone (just look at this forum) can feel entitled to consider themselves a web designer, because to be honest, as a designer, who wants to turn away the possibility of a client going to another potential designer who has web skills also.
It's easy to build websites, no honestly, it really is, it's just f****g hard to build them properly and in a way that is sadly often unseeable to the client.
but i go on....
BrentonMailman
08-22-2006, 02:19 AM
Im a young, aspiring designer, with an extremely limited amount of HTML and thats about it :(
I have dreams of someday owning my own small business (me as the main, if not only graphic designer) and would, of course want to offer website services to my clients. But this offers a big problem, because I really don't have a LOVE for coding or learning it, but I do, however have a love for applying graphic design to a website. Is it too selfish of me to have an in-house coder, to code all my websites, and thats all?
I have enough knowledge to know what types of things can and can't be done, I just need someone who has a love of making sites rank high on search engines and have cross-browser compatibility-- something I know I will never have.
JPnyc
08-22-2006, 02:27 AM
Not if that's all you need. How is that selfish? Companies don't often hire what they don't need, unless nepotism is involved.
BrentonMailman
08-22-2006, 03:06 AM
i dunno, i guess i was just thinking that maybe i didnt 'deserve' to say i can do it, but your right, its fine, i was just curious as to what people thought.
I think your best off in books.
The technology is so new and ever changing that to keep up with it you really need to look into the books. Universities tend rely to much on code generating software it seems. Off course you could get a computer science degree,lol.
As a web designer/developer the only thing you should need to create a web site is notepad. if that is not the case then your relying to much on code generating software which would imply(to me at least) that you know next to nothing about standard complient semantic mark-up.
Here's a list I would highly recommend in order of difficulty(ie. so you would read the first book before the last):
XHTML and CSS:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975240293/sr=8-1/qid=1156235777/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3539395-8691813?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975240277/sr=8-2/qid=1156235777/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-3539395-8691813?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596145/sr=1-1/qid=1156235831/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3539395-8691813?ie=UTF8&s=books
Javascript/DOM/DHTML:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590595335/sr=1-1/qid=1156235883/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3539395-8691813?ie=UTF8&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0957921896/sr=1-1/qid=1156235920/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3539395-8691813?ie=UTF8&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975240269/sr=1-1/qid=1156235960/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3539395-8691813?ie=UTF8&s=books
I personally think reading those six books and following the tutorials in them will benefit you more then any school for web design… but I could be wrong.
Emmanize
08-22-2006, 09:42 AM
As a web designer/developer the only thing you should need to create a web site is notepad. if that is not the case then your relying to much on code generating software which would imply(to me at least) that you know next to nothing about standard complient semantic mark-up.
I disagree. For example knowing DW is a skill in itself. An organisation would probably laugh at you if you told them you couldn't use it. Weather you want to use it or not - it’s best you know how to use it anyway. Also it is possible to use code only view, no one is saying you have to use WYSIWUG there are 3 settings, code (basically an expensive notepad), design, code and design. What I like about it, is the fact that different parts of code is in colour....helps me see where I am going when I am having a crap day lol. But its opinion really. Many great hand coders use it – wouldn’t say they didn’t know what they where doing.
I disagree. For example knowing DW is a skill in itself. An organisation would probably laugh at you if you told them you couldn't use it.
This maybe the case for some developers, but I still feel that it is over bloated. In my experience, the majority of places that are looking to employ real developers use either BBedit, Homesite or Topstyle, which are far more streamlined solutions, and have all the benefits of colour coding, auto tag closing etc. whilst having non of the bloat or easy way out options.
There's far to many opportunities to cheat in dreamweaver, to knock something out, or actually draw your website, without having to touch a line of code
Emmanize
08-22-2006, 10:08 AM
There's far to many opportunities to cheat in dreamweaver, to knock something out, or actually draw your website, without having to touch a line of code
That is true. However not everyone that uses DW cheat. I know I don't. That is why I have been posting silly question on here lately lol. But I know what you mean, it can rope in cowboys, but it can also help others. It’s a two way street.
I'm sure everyone knows how to use dreamweaver.
Its not that I don't know how to use the software its that its more valuable to produce design without relying a code generation software.
If you using dreamweaver then the last thing your considering is semantic mark-up.
Its not that I don't know how to use the software its that its more valuable to produce design without relying a code generation software.
If you using dreamweaver then the last thing your considering is semantic mark-up.
Completely not true, do you know what semantic mark-up means? (not said in a better-than-you way at all, no offence tz) I'm just intrigued as to why you think Dreamweaver = unsemantic
That is true. However not everyone that uses DW cheat. I know I don't. That is why I have been posting silly question on here lately lol. But I know what you mean, it can rope in cowboys, but it can also help others. It’s a two way street.
Oh no, i totally agree, all i'm saying and i'm probably not being clear, is that a developer, a good one, should be able to code irrelevant of the tools they are provided with.
If you walk into a job application and they say show us what you can do, the last thing you want to be doing is looking around for the little green and black icon. You should have the adaptability to just be able to open notepad, and start typing, not be stuck with saying "uhhhh...where's dreamweaver?"
becasue dreamweaver is presentation based and uses tables to create the layout.
Ok… yeah I'm sure your right. I missphrased what I meant. I'm sure dreamweaver uses element tags to give meaning to information. However, it doesn't seperate content from structure and behavior to well. Since, it relies heavily on the use of tables to layout items on screen.
becasue dreamweaver is presentation based and uses tables to create the layout.
we've had this conversation before tz, dreamweaver does not use tables to create layout, far from it
However, it doesn't seperate content from structure and behavior to well. Since, it relies heavily on the use of tables to layout items on screen.
yes it does, again, this relies on the users understanding of the software, not the limitations of the software. It is actually an incredibly powerful tool in the right, educated hands. When you connect a CSS sheet to it, it automatically gives you drop down lists of all classes and styles
so if i type
<div class=".....">
after i've finished typing class= it gives a drop down to select a class from my seperate css sheet.
As emmanize rightly stated, it's just an extremely powerful (over bloated mind you) version of notepad, which allows you to code however you wish.
whatever… lol
I just took a look at one of the things I did it in it two years back and it looks table based to me.
I like my notepad.
I just don't think you can call yourself an effective web designer/developer without the ability to produce mark-up on the fly.
However, thats my personal opinion.
before, I knew what i was doing and all dreamwaver was fantastic but, now that I look at it I think its best to stay away especially for learning purposes. When you produce mark-up from scratch and have to type every little line it extremly helps (me at least) to understand the langauge(s) better.
I do kinda miss the color coding though,lol.
I just took a look at one of the things I did it in it two years back and it looks table based to me.
ummm....because you built it in tables at a time when you didn't know better?
I like my notepad.
Good for you. All i'm saying is if you're going to right-off a programme on a forum, at least try to be informative as to it's plus' and minus', rather than all out stating it's useless because it only does tables, when it doesn't. user error isn't software error.
after all, that's like saying photoshop only works in rgb cos when i open my photo's from my digital camera they're rgb.
wienerdog
08-22-2006, 01:15 PM
I use Dreamweaver mostly in Code view, and switching to Code/Design to make sure things are looking good. Dreamweaver 8 is MUCH more aligned with creating styles with CSS. "TZ's" criticisms of DW seem to be based on the MX version.
That being said, I was wondering what the best form of instruction would be for a graphic designer looking to get more into the web. But I'm also trying to figure out if Web Design is a field I really want to get into. I am trying to find a distinction between what a Web Designer knows, or am I looking for something else, more of a Web Graphics Designer. Someone who can take Notepad and write up a site from code only feels more like someone who is a Web Developer and not someone I would want creating the graphic design of a site, choosing photography, making sure the photos have proper exposure in Photoshop, creating the button graphics, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them designing the entire site in Photoshop, slicing it, and letting it write tables to lay it out (that's what my very novice portfolio site is like). I don't want to be a programmer or web developer, and don't want to spend more time with contructing a database than designing the imagery for a site.
Am I wrong to think that there is a distinction? Do web designers really utilize graphic design principles, know the graphic design software, art, typography, and can put a site together with Notepad? I wouldn't expect someone who can create the graphics of a web site to be able to make me a custom shopping cart and set it up to work with a database.
I'm trying to figure out if I get into this, am I going to wind up spending more time reading lines of code, learning computer science and "if > then statements" than creating graphics and knowing the important little things about use of color.
Emmanize
08-22-2006, 01:29 PM
becasue dreamweaver is presentation based and uses tables to create the layout.
WHA????? :eek: Do you even have DW lol? What DW has that note pad dosn't is the colors so you can see the code batter.
I think some designers like DW better then note pad because its more visual...even someone simple like the colour coding.
MikeTheVike
08-22-2006, 01:44 PM
I know there's a few web and graphic designers here, so I thought I'd put this out there and see what people think. I am a graphic designer that has a novice-level of knowledge in working with web design. I am somewhat familar with some HTML coding, and am starting to play with CSS.
I have a degree in Graphic Design and am thinking of taking some Web Graphic Design Continuing Education courses at the local branch of Penn State (where I graduated from).
They have four classes for about $400-500 each to complete a Web Graphics Design Certificate. I get a 10% discount for being a PSU grad.
The classes cover:
* Dreamweaver/Fireworks (I vaguely know Dreamweaver)
* Java Scripting (of which I know next to nothing)
* Flash (I'm at a very intro level)
* Photoshop for the WWW (I think I know PS well enough for the web)
Should I go ahead and take all the courses? Will a certificate look good on my resume to help get web design work?
I know it's cheaper to get books on the subject, but my lack of discipline will lead to me not getting things done very well.
i haven't read the whole thread, but I would take a class that goes into advanced html/xhtml/css, you can learn the basics on your own quickly. The javascript and beginner flash classes would be good also. i think you can learn Dreamweaver on your own as well.
reuber1
08-22-2006, 02:08 PM
Guys, DW has a Clean up HTML function. There, argument solved.
This post is a joke. This post is a joke. This post is a joke.
chris_bcn
08-22-2006, 02:21 PM
DW is a tool. Like notepad. DW can't produce good or bad sites, it will output what has been put into it. If you don't know what you're doing it will outpoint a god awful site, if you do know what you're doing you can output a beautiful site. Simple as that.
If you're a hobbyist or making a personal site, go ahead andpoint and click a go go. If you're a pro and have any pride in what you do then use DW in code view and check the results in a browser.
CSS support is much better in DW these days but I wouldn't rely on the split or design view to see if things are right - it'll often look different in a browser. Why would you anyway - it's just another click to open the browser, then hit refresh to check how you page looks after changes.
DW, in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing is a very expensive HTML editor with great added features. THe code collapsing is great, the tag completion is lovely - they check in/ and out feature is really useful if you have more than one person working on a project...
wienerdog
08-22-2006, 06:29 PM
i haven't read the whole thread, but I would take a class that goes into advanced html/xhtml/css, you can learn the basics on your own quickly. The javascript and beginner flash classes would be good also. i think you can learn Dreamweaver on your own as well.
Thanks! Unfortunately, I don't see any schools around here offering CSS/XHTML classes at night. I may be better off taking just the JavaScript class if my company pays for it, and getting training from Lynda.com, since they focus their education around being a graphic designer who wants to get into web design.
Designing for the Web was a great book for a print designer who totally didn't understand the nature of designing for the web.
Emmanize
08-22-2006, 06:53 PM
CSS support is much better in DW these days but I wouldn't rely on the split or design view to see if things are right - it'll often look different in a browser. Why would you anyway - it's just another click to open the browser, then hit refresh to check how you page looks after changes.
I agree. Thats why I normally take the split off now because its just annoying. The only time I use it (and thats hardly ever these days) isnt when I can't find a peace of text in the code.
For those who dont use DW this is what we mean:
Split
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/Fashy/DWsplit.jpg
Code
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/Fashy/DWcode.jpg
colonel5
08-22-2006, 07:36 PM
other than possibly the javascript course, the others are not classes that would impress me personally if I was considering your resume, I'd worry that your foundation was too software-focused. (I can't speak for other employers).
Same here. Though the knowledge of the software is a good idea, being solid in HTML, XHTML, Java Script & CSS are much more important.
If you have the time I'm sure it won't hurt you (beyond possible building a reliance on Dreamweaver)
colonel5
08-22-2006, 07:39 PM
I agree. Thats why I normally take the split off now because its just annoying. The only time I use it (and thats hardly ever these days) isnt when I can't find a peace of text in the code.
I've just recently finished my transition to strictly the code window. I started in just design, went to the split, and am now confident in just the code window.
The transition took me a full year. I've always been semi-comfortable w/ html but nothing else really. Now I feel good in html, xhtml, css and I can work in & around java script.
I am back to using dreamweaver (esp. early in production) again. Some of the features come in handy, the color coding and tabbing is great. Love the squiggly lines you get when you forget a semi-colon or something. The validation/code-check stuff, site/file organization features (the background: url(*browse your hardrive*) is nice), and the easy browser previewing, etc. etc.
Dreamweaver can produce crap code if you're not writing it yourself, and I get really frustrated with it every time I look in design view to even find something (highlight it > go back to the code > it's grabbing the wrong thing, great going genius). So really, I don't. Which means yeah, it's a really expensive version of notepad at that point.
But there are other features to the program that can really help streamline productivity.
With some sites I set my comp as a background and place text with DW layers on top before taking a screenshot to send my client. I do a little WYSIWYG with link and text styles too. It's totally a cheat, but it's just for the comp and it allows me to show a lot without spending all day working up the CSS. This approach takes me all of 5 minutes. If there are revisions coming then it saves me loads of time. If I get a greenlight, I toss out all that crap code and build the stylesheet.
JPnyc
08-22-2006, 07:59 PM
There's some good editors out there that'll color code a bunch of languages for you. EditPlus2 is one that I know of
Am I wrong to think that there is a distinction? Do web designers really utilize graphic design principles, know the graphic design software, art, typography, and can put a site together with Notepad? I wouldn't expect someone who can create the graphics of a web site to be able to make me a custom shopping cart and set it up to work with a database.
I'm trying to figure out if I get into this, am I going to wind up spending more time reading lines of code, learning computer science and "if > then statements" than creating graphics and knowing the important little things about use of color.
Honestly? The best web designers out there are both incredibly talented graphic artists as well as insanely proficient coders. So my answer to your question is definitely YES.
I'm not saying that everybody needs to go this route or aspire to be that, but if you don't learn both sides of the coin, you'll ALWAYS be dependent on somebody else to finish the job. I don't want to give that level of control over to somebody else, personally.
I wear several hats as a web designer -- graphic designer, web developer (I write the code, test, implement, keep current on trends, constantly learn new techniques and better practices), I consult with my clients about SEO and internet marketing, RSS, maintenance, etc., and so on it goes.
It's possible for you to design something in photoshop with an understanding of what's involved but never have to go any deeper than that, but would you really want that? It seems like some level of interest in web technologies at least would be helpful. And frankly I can't believe that employers would have a huge need for something like this.
I don't do print because it doesn't excite me -- setting up files and sweating over CMYK values and die cuts and bleed margins and blah blah blah. So I don't do it.
When I'm done designing a website, which is super fun, that's the designer in me -- I get to code, and I also find that HIGHLY satisfying, the technical aspects of it.
It may just be me, but if you don't ever touch code or want to, then you shouldn't bother learning Dreamweaver -- you'll only end up producing something that doesn't serve your client well. As browsers grow more and more compliant with standards, these types of sites will no longer fly. Looking to the horizon, this way of doing things is going the way of the dinosaur. In this scenario, I'd call you a graphic designer, not a web designer, even if the final result is a website.
JPnyc
08-22-2006, 08:10 PM
That's already true. I can often tell a DW site before I ever look at the source code, if they use javascript rollovers for images in the nav. There's a noticeable delay because of the convoluted approach DW uses.
colonel5
08-23-2006, 02:34 PM
I do like dreamweaver for its "Code hints" part. While I'm writing html, css, or javascript it is a huge help in the learning process to have a list pop up when you need to add a tag etc. Though I think using it as that is more the exception where people normally use it for it's (what my boss calls) gooey interface where you can just drag and drop things on the page and let it do the work for you. It's way too tempting to stick with that.
Nomokie
08-23-2006, 02:39 PM
I wasn't impressed with my community college's 'web' courses. They offer Web Design I and II which is basically a bare min. Dreamweaver course and barely got into CSS in the II class. I was amazed, and felt I wasted my money.
They have a flash course and I've taken it but honestly learned more on my own than in any of these three classes.
I've never used Lynda.Com but highly recommend VTC.Com which is very similiar. I pay $25 a month and get UNLIMITED movie tutorials to ALL the applications I'd ever want (complete line of Adobe products, Macromedia prodects, and MANY MANY MAY MORE).
When you do get done with an entire course of videos (or you can purchase the video course individually for $99) you can get a certificate. It helped me get through school because aside from not learning Dreamweaver and Flash in school, my school sucked for Illustrator too!
Check out VTC.COM, its well worth the money. Its Mac and PC compat.
lynda.com is a really good resource. I joined a while back - but don't have the time to use it as much as I would like.
No professional web designer worth his or her salt would use a WYSIWYG editor in design view. Ever.
I have recently started to use DW again (because topstyle has develop a weird bug on my machine where by even if you click on another program on the task bar the focus doesn't leave Topstyle until you click it again - very annoying and I got bored of it) and DW8 is a very good editor - but only in code only view.
This makes it a very expensive HTML editor.
It's not about coding versus designing - it's the same thing. I'm a designer not a developer. I don't want to code - I know enough PHP to get myself into trouble and no more, but I recognise the importance of semantic, well written HTML, and how important the seperation of content and style is. It's a basic requirement for a web designer these days - it's part of the design, as important as the visual UI
As I say, no good designer produces pages in a point and click manner
Emmanize
08-23-2006, 02:41 PM
I never let DW do any work for me....I pulled myself from that. Now its just habbit to write it myself. Also saves time on tiding the code up when I am done. :) There are a lot of people out there giving dw a bad name, such as cowboys. It is a great tool in the right hands. I think the help is there for just that....help when needed. I don't think its there to be abused.
Nomokie
08-23-2006, 02:44 PM
One more comment about VTC, they also offer extensive HTML/DHTML and CSS tutorials among an enormous amount of Flash and Flashscript tutorials. There are over 400+ tutorial courses with over 43327 tutorial movies.
And no, I don't work for them.
wienerdog
08-28-2006, 04:39 PM
So I think I have my company convinced it's a good investment for me to further my web design skills and look into learning JavaScript & CSS. I don't want to be strictly web programming and development though, and am afraid my head will explode with too many if/than statements and not enough point-and-click design work to balance it out.
I may take the JavaScript class at the school, but I'm wondering if I should just do everything on-line. It's a LOT cheaper. I guess the benefit of the classroom is having an instructor to ask questions and meet other students.
I was looking into Lynda.com because they also offer the $25 a month subscription, but they also have $375/year for any software videos on their site and you can download tutorial files. Has anyone else used them for training?
Drawing a Blank
08-28-2006, 06:44 PM
There's some good editors out there that'll color code a bunch of languages for you. EditPlus2 is one that I know of
I'm new to coding but I use ConTEXT, which is free, and it color codes the code.
javascript isn't all that hard to grasp.
I pretty much have the bare bone basic down in three months time.
The part that is difficult is once you learn those bare bone basics is actually applying them to something usefull without reference to a book.
Once you know javascript learning the DOM isn't all that diffcult to get either.
I would recommed though that you know a little about html and the basic elements its composed of before venturing into DHTML. Since, the basic principles of DHTML revolve around manipulting the document object model(DOM) which is basically said the hierachy of a dcouments mark-up, the element tags to be exact.
With all that said, definalty learn html before looking into javascript. It will help you latter to understand the document object model. I mean… I'm not guru yet,lol but, learning html/XHTML before javascript is a must. Since, all DHTML consist of is navigating the dom tree. Without knowing the elements that make up the DOM tree… well that might be a little difficult,lol.
Oh… and on top of that all the browser complient issues you need to address. Thta is most likly the most difficult part. Some things work in one browser others work in another, some work on one but, are different, or they work on all browsers but, do different things,lol- thats the fun part. //end rant