Couple of questions, anyone want to take a stab?

[naydies]

First of all, I have forever avoided learning web design but I have broken and I'm ready. Any suggestions for a good book or books that can help a newbie?

Secondly, what do you suggest is the best software for building for the web? Dreamweaver?

Third, for those of you who freelance or bid on jobs. Where exactly do you find the jobs? Do you use guru or something along those lines? I've mainly done publication work so I work with printers but I want to expand beyond that.

I thank you for the help! :)

[morea]

start here: www.w3schools.com

and really, the best coders I know write the code in notepad (or something similar) - don't trust a program to code for you.

Hope that helps some.

[EC]

Here is the sticky we put together in the web design forum: http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13057

Dreamweaver is fine. But it's just an html editor, any text editor will do. Learning HTML and CSS are the basic skills you need, not so much learning a program.

As for finding job -- networking, marketing, word of mouth/referrals.

[captain spanky]

I'm learning Dreamweaver and Flash but it's slow going... my head is a sponge for useless info (like: pound for pound, beefburgers cost more than a new car) but then is an impeneterable barrier for all that is helpful and good.

[naydies]

Thanks Guys!

So what you're telling me is I don't even need Dreamweaver or any other program? I'm completely 'green' on this. I just need to learn coding?

[EC]

Yes you will want to think about learning HTML and CSS (some go farther and learn javascript, php, etc.). Dreamweaver is a great tool, but only if you have a good understanding of the code. If you don't, it can really create bad habits that you'll have to eventually unlearn. If you understand how to write the code, any text editor will do but there are advantages to using a program like dreamweaver for managing your site files, tabbed and color-coded coding, validation checks, browser checks, code snippets libraries and a host of other goodies.

[Loopy]

Thanks Guys!

So what you're telling me is I don't even need Dreamweaver or any other program? I'm completely 'green' on this. I just need to learn coding?

Excatly. All your coding can be done in notepad. If your coding in html, save as "home.html", or for css "style.css". I personally like using dreamweaver because of most of the reasons EC said, however there are many programs like this on the market, that are free.

HTML EDITOR (http://www.download.com/HTML-Editor/3000-2048_4-10297310.html?tag=lst-0-4) , COFFEECUP FREE HTML EDITOR (http://www.download.com/CoffeeCup-Free-HTML-Editor/3000-2048_4-10454958.html?tag=lst-0-3) , PAGEBREEZE HTML EDITOR (http://www.download.com/PageBreeze-Free-HTML-Editor/3000-2048_4-10530078.html?tag=lst-0-6)

I've never tried any of these programs, so I don't know how good they are but it may be something to checkout. I strongly recommend hand coding your website.

[tZ]

If your looking to do this professionally then I also highly recommend spending your time in a text editor rather then dreamweaver. Every computer has a text editor and thats really all you need. Then you create a root folder with the site name or something and drop in your files as Loopy explained.

This is the first thing I recommend reading:

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/html-css-beginners-guide

That artcile is the first four chapers of this book:

http://www.sitepoint.com/books/html1/

So after of course buy the book if you like what your reading and learning.

That should get you started.

good luck

[dige]

If you've never created a website before, starting out writing code could be frustrating for you and make you want to give up. Dreamweaver is a good way to get your feet wet to see if web design is for you. It has the familiarity of a page layout program. If you want paying jobs, you'll need to learn coding in addition to Dreamweaver and Flash. If you become a web design expert, your own freelance business site that you create will be your best marketing tool for getting jobs.

[reuber1]

I didn't think starting out writing code by hand is frustrating. Hell, I would think going straight to Dreamweaver would be harder because you're not understanding how everything works. Even in design view, it's not like you're doing a web layout in Photoshop...there are rules to follow yet.

[EC]

I started out in dreamweaver and let it do all the work for me. This was in the 1990s and it didn't really matter as much then. THEN? I had to unlearn everything and relearn everything and I had to keep on working during the meantime. So it was a really difficult transition. That's why I advise people to learn it right the first time.

[naydies]

Thanks again Guys!

I think I'll try to learn both at the same time......maybe. Your information has been helpful!

[Loopy]

I didn't think starting out writing code by hand is frustrating. Hell, I would think going straight to Dreamweaver would be harder because you're not understanding how everything works. Even in design view, it's not like you're doing a web layout in Photoshop...there are rules to follow yet.

I agree, actually I find writing code by hand kind of exciting. (How geekish is that?)

If you are using dreamweaver just because you site looks good in design view doesn't meet thats how its going to look in the browsers. Another reason why its important that you learn how to code first off, so that if you are using dreamweaver (or like program) you know how to fix the code if you have a problem.

There are tons of resources on the net on web design, Tz provided some excellent links. Good Luck :)

[EC]

It's pretty geeky. lol But nothing is more satisfying than solving a problem through code. I love the design aspect of what I do quite a bit, but it's nice to have that mental "switch" and solve problems in a completely different way too.

It's sort of like how it's satisfying to be able to speak french when you visit Paris. It's nothing but learning a language, and when you can "think in code" it's a pretty cool feeling. FAR more fun than being frustrated with figuring out where Dreamweaver horked up your website.

[Navian]

I've been using dreamweaver, but I also view it in split mode.. Coding used to and sometimes still does, frustrates me.

I think its because in highschool (9th grade~1992-1993) I took a programming class on the Apple IIe's (yes it was a while ago). It was called "Applesoft BASIC".

It went something like: (from wiki, its been a while, i couldnt remember the coding)

10 INPUT "What is your name: "; U$
20 PRINT "Hello "; U$
30 REM
40 INPUT "How many stars do you want: "; N
50 S$ = ""
60 FOR I = 1 TO N
70 S$ = S$ + "*"
80 NEXT I
90 PRINT S$
100 REM
110 INPUT "Do you want more stars? "; A$
120 IF LEN(A$) = 0 THEN GOTO 110
130 A$ = LEFT$(A$, 1)
140 IF (A$ = "Y") OR (A$ = "y") THEN GOTO 40
150 PRINT "Goodbye ";
160 FOR I = 1 TO 200
170 PRINT U$; " ";
180 NEXT I
190 PRINT

Anywho, the teacher was a college level professor teaching a beginning basic programming class, which was the only class I failed, very badly (lots of homework) lol. Maybe thats why I hate coding now...

[EC]

what is that, quick basic?

[budafist]

Coding is all great if you are tech based, but if you are from a design background and like to see what you are doing in terms of colour and shapes rather than letters, punctuation and numbers, you need dreamweaver.

Since there are different views, you can have a nosey at what the code looks like as well as working in the design view.

[EC]

Your website is really cute budafist, I like it. But I totally disagree with what you just said. If somebody wants to learn it, they can. Just because you're a designer doesn't mean you can't learn technical things -- if that were true, nothing would ever get printed correctly.

[chris_bcn]

Part of web design IS the coding. THe visual UI, the information architecture, the semantic HTML and the sprinkling of CSS goodness is what a front-end web designer does.

You need to do all of it to be a good web designer.

[budafist]

Thanks EC. I'd love to learn code, but I just don't have the time for it. Or maybe I just feel like I don't have time for it...same thing I guess.

I know that if I knew what it all meant it would make it easier to trouble shoot. I guess main reason is that that we weren't taught in code view in my course, we focused on the design view. I find it really hard to add and delete stuff in code. Better for me not to touch it I think in case I delete stuff that makes it go!

[EC]

lol point taken ;)

[Navian]

what is that, quick basic?

Applesoft Basic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applesoft_BASIC) (Wiki info)

[undressedmonster]

I taught myself HTML by looking at the code of other peoples' websites. After a few years I taught myself Dreamweaver and Fireworks through the www.Lynda.com video tutorials.

I woudn't design a whole site in Notepad or a text editor unless it's a super simple site. I'm the kind of person that needs to see the results of the code at all times. That's why I like WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) editors like Dreamweaver. But if you don't know what is going on under the hood (ie. the HTML code), you'll have a really tough time troubleshooting problems.

Bottom line, Dreamweaver will frustrate the heck out of you if you don't know HTML and CSS basics first. Spend a few months familiarizing yourself with those, first.

And if you want to make a GOOD website that is user-focused, read the advice from Jakob Nielsen at www.useit.com.

I would also highly suggest the following books about website usability:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/073571102X.01._SCTHUMBZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Homepage-Usability-50-Websites-Deconstructed/dp/073571102X/sr=8-3/qid=1157075464/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-2445102-5821508?ie=UTF8&s=books)
Homepage Usability: 50 Websites Deconstructed by Jakob Nielsen (http://www.amazon.com/Homepage-Usability-50-Websites-Deconstructed/dp/073571102X/sr=8-3/qid=1157075464/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-2445102-5821508?ie=UTF8&s=books)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/156205810X.01._SCTHUMBZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Web-Usability-Practice-Simplicity/dp/156205810X/sr=8-2/qid=1157075464/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-2445102-5821508?ie=UTF8&s=books)
Designing Web Usability : The Practice of Simplicity (http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Web-Usability-Practice-Simplicity/dp/156205810X/sr=8-2/qid=1157075464/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-2445102-5821508?ie=UTF8&s=books) by Jakob Nielsen

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0789723107.01._SCTHUMBZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Think-Approach-Usability/dp/0789723107/sr=8-4/qid=1157075464/ref=pd_bbs_4/104-2445102-5821508?ie=UTF8&s=books)
Don't Make Me Think: A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability (http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Think-Approach-Usability/dp/0789723107/sr=8-4/qid=1157075464/ref=pd_bbs_4/104-2445102-5821508?ie=UTF8&s=books) by Steve Krug

[EC]

^ great advice.

[chris_bcn]

very good advice - not sure I'm in huge agreement with this though:

And if you want to make a GOOD website that is user-focused, read the advice from Jakob Nielsen at www.useit.com (http://www.useit.com/).

I don't always agree, and in fact find myself often vehemently disagreeing with Nielsen

[EC]

yeah neilsen is out and this guy is in or so I've heard :)

http://www.uie.com/ Jared Spool

[chris_bcn]

all these experts have very useable sites. Look like crap though. There is a balance Jared and Jakob!

[EC]

yeah how come usability = looks like poo anyway?

[undressedmonster]

Yeah, Nielsen isn't a graphics designer, he's a usability expert. His concern is making websites usable, not making them aesthetically pleasing. A graphic designer designing a website should be concerned with both.

BTW, Nielsen doesn't just pull stuff out of his behind; it's all research-based. So if you need somewhere to start to get aquainted with the basic rules of usability, he's the guy.

[undressedmonster]

yeah how come usability = looks like poo anyway?

Form follows function. Which is easier said than done correctly.

I just realized, when you have sites like Jakob Nielsen's with so much good content, you don't really need aestetic design. the content makes the site interesting. No need for eye-candy.

(Not that I'm against eye-candy.)

[EC]

I'm impressed that you find that interesting. lol I used to work in market research and did quite a few usability studies, interesting to a point, but mostly zzzzz.

[chris_bcn]

I would also dispute your argument that Nielsen's site is full of good content

[Navian]

to each his/her own. :p

[undressedmonster]

It's interesting to me now because I'm desperate for knowledge about how to make a good, usable website. I'm sure in a few years I won't be so interested.

Hey, I'm an information design geek. What can I say?

[EC]

It's interesting to me now because I'm desperate for knowledge about how to make a good, usable website. I'm sure in a few years I won't be so interested.

Hey, I'm an information design geek. What can I say?

I know, and it really is super important. Also, quite useful when arguing with clients. If you say "the user will get lost if we do that" then that's a pretty powerful case!