Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Women dominating the design industry?
budafist
09-04-2006, 01:56 AM
When I went to Uni 2 years ago, 90% of the lecturers were male while only about 30% of the students were male.
Will the future of design be dominated by women?
urstwile
09-04-2006, 02:00 AM
What if it were?
What do you mean, "will it"? The field has been dominated by women for a long time!
PS, the male dominated designer education field and female dominated professional industry is another reality in design.
What if it were?
What if it weren't?
urstwile
09-04-2006, 02:12 AM
Except that's not what you come away with reading design magazines and such. Most of the highlighted designers are men, at least in my recollection.
Many of the older, established designers are men. But when you actually go to work in the field, you find most of the working professionals are women.
urstwile
09-04-2006, 02:16 AM
Except that the most quoted/cited are men.
Well, I can't help it if we're better! :D
urstwile
09-04-2006, 03:12 AM
Don't even get me started, Ned. http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0038.gif
budafist
09-04-2006, 03:16 AM
Don't even get me started, Ned. http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0038.gif
I reckon!!
Not saying anything is wrong with it just will get interesting I think...
urstwile
09-04-2006, 03:17 AM
Um, no, I didn't.
So what if you didn't? You know I can't resist... ;)
urstwile
09-04-2006, 03:21 AM
To get serious about your thread, though Buda, I suspect that the field has been dominated by women, and yet the big names are all men. Not because men are better, but because that's the way our society accords recognition, to men, instead of women. It's considered an exception when a woman succeeds, not a matter of course that she will.
I suspect that there are a lot of great women designers out there who have had no recognition whatsoever, who've probably been in the trenches doing their thing, but it's the Sagmeisters who get the props, not others. I couldn't really tell you of any good women designers out there, but I'm quite sure that they're there.
I can name a few...
Urstwile, Red Kittie Kat, Cornfed, ShelleBelle, Morea, to start off...
Okay, I'll stop being nice now. This is SO out of character for me!!
urstwile
09-04-2006, 03:30 AM
Way to suck up, Ned! :)
Hey, I've never been married, but I've been in several serious, long-term relationships.
I know the scoop by now...
urstwile
09-04-2006, 03:32 AM
Nicely done. :D
budafist
09-04-2006, 03:41 AM
There are things in place - slowly and about time that are encouraging women designers/illustrators. Australia has this book/scholarship thing where only women illustrators/designers can enter and wins a scholarship. Considering there are more female students entering design school anyway, is encouraging women to go to design school really necessary?
I think is more about encouraging women once in the industry to do AMAZING design. Maybe design awards for existing female designers? There are more women than men designers, but the graphic design awards here are dominated by men. Is that because mostly men sit on the boards etc?
Nicely done. :D
And THIS is why women are poised for domination...
urstwile
09-04-2006, 03:45 AM
It wouldn't be the first industry that's dominated by women and yet is judged by men. After all, think of the hairstyling industry. How many women are there out in the forefront? And yet every time I sit my butt down in a chair for a hair cut, 90% of the time, it's going to be a woman doing my hair, not a man. And yet, there's Vidal Sassoon, Paul Mitchell, etc. Very few women, even though women are the ones doing the work. Not too surprising to me. Sad, but not surprising.
I think is more about encouraging women once in the industry to do AMAZING design. Maybe design awards for existing female designers? There are more women than men designers, but the graphic design awards here are dominated by men. Is that because mostly men sit on the boards etc?
Graphic design is communication. The purpose of our field is to cater to the business world. It's the business world which is male dominated, and that influences the prestige of the designers. Males do tend to have different tastes than women, you know...
It wouldn't be the first industry that's dominated by women and yet is judged by men. After all, think of the hairstyling industry. How many women are there out in the forefront? And yet every time I sit my butt down in a chair for a hair cut, 90% of the time, it's going to be a woman doing my hair, not a man. And yet, there's Vidal Sassoon, Paul Mitchell, etc. Very few women, even though women are the ones doing the work. Not too surprising to me. Sad, but not surprising.
Yes, but have you ever seen a STRAIGHT man with a name in the hair or fashion industry?
Samakimoto Graphics
09-04-2006, 04:58 AM
I once worked for publisher (male) who had specifically put out an ad for " a female illustrator" for a childrens' book. During our negotitions I inquired why his ad had been gender specific.
Him: ...women have a certain sensisitivity in illustrative style...
So, while the industry is dominated by women, there are instances where the preference for female designer/illustrators may promote this further.
Interesting... Though I have no problem with that, whomever governs employment standards in your state would no doubt deem that illegal. That's not a good enough reason to warrant discrimination.
Of course, if a male was asked for in the ad, there would've been an uprising!
Begga
09-04-2006, 08:16 AM
.Australia has this book/scholarship thing where only women illustrators/designers can enter and wins a scholarship.
Out of topic here, sorry: Budafist, do you know the name of this scholarship?
budafist
09-04-2006, 11:37 AM
The annual book that promotes it is called Curvy.
http://www.yenmag.net/article.php?iss=26&art=321
Doesn't say anything about the scholarship online from what I can see, but the 2 previous issues have details on how to apply. The books are beautiful. I've yet to get this year's one.
sarahjoga
09-04-2006, 02:10 PM
Darn that glass ceiling, will we ever break through!!! ha ha ha. Paula Scher always makes me smile as being a "famous" girl designer. It is funny to hear that women dominate the field, as a young designer, I have never "got" that... But I've also been in a design coma for the last five years as I 'reared by younguns'... so perhaps I'm out of the loop.
Broacher
09-04-2006, 02:27 PM
I think that innate talent for one sex or the other has little to do with this reality. It's how business goals overlap with life goals. Fewer women are willing to put their job ahead of all else--including family, as compared to men. Especially men married to women who do all the housework and child rearing. And I've also noticed that far fewer men get pregnant in the middle of their most productive work years.
It's a cruel but nonetheless real aspect of nearly all business realities that a commitment to long hours for work at the expense of all other aspects of life is still the number one way to get to the top.
Oh, and not only are 90% of all lecturers men, I'd say that at least 95% of all lecherers are also.
naydies
09-04-2006, 03:42 PM
I had a professor in college who basically 'spat' on all the females in our class. I ended with a decent grade but he failed many. It was so obvious he didn't like females that many of them went to the dean to complain. Once I found out about the complaint filed his actions towards me made more sense. Later we found out he had made a comment to one of the males that women didn't know how to design.
BrentonMailman
09-04-2006, 04:12 PM
I completely disregard this stuff. I get that its true, But I dont think it should be. Women are just as talented as men. Its a shame that everyone doesnt get treated equally.
What about gay men designers. Theres a lot of them out there. Just like hair styling and interior decorating...
What about gay men designers. Theres a lot of them out there. Just like hair styling and interior decorating...
What are you saying? I told you time and time again, I'M NOT GAY!!
Oh sorry, you weren't talking about me, were you?
Didn't mean to get defensive. :D
Satchel
09-04-2006, 04:28 PM
I think that innate talent for one sex or the other has little to do with this reality. It's how business goals overlap with life goals. Fewer women are willing to put their job ahead of all else--including family, as compared to men.
That is a damn good point!
naydies
09-04-2006, 05:36 PM
I think that innate talent for one sex or the other has little to do with this reality. It's how business goals overlap with life goals. Fewer women are willing to put their job ahead of all else--including family, as compared to men. Especially men married to women who do all the housework and child rearing. And I've also noticed that far fewer men get pregnant in the middle of their most productive work years.
Come on now. Women get 6 weeks off for maturnity leave. 6 WEEKS! Thats a long vacation. Why can't a women have a career and a family but still succeed? Why does it fall on the womans shoulders? The men aren't having families also? I believe its your thinking that contributes to the 'glass ceiling'.
urstwile
09-04-2006, 07:01 PM
Yes, but have you ever seen a STRAIGHT man with a name in the hair or fashion industry?
Gay men are still men, Ned.
urstwile
09-04-2006, 07:05 PM
Come on now. Women get 6 weeks off for maturnity leave. 6 WEEKS! Thats a long vacation. Why can't a women have a career and a family but still succeed? Why does it fall on the womans shoulders? The men aren't having families also? I believe its your thinking that contributes to the 'glass ceiling'.
Naydies, do you have kids? Maternity leave is generally not a vacation for most of the women who take it, as they adjust to their new responsibilities having a child in the house. I don't have kids, but even I can tell you that. It's a lot of sleepless nights if the kid doesn't sleep through, if there are other problems, etc.
budafist
09-04-2006, 09:20 PM
Come on now. Women get 6 weeks off for maturnity leave. 6 WEEKS! Thats a long vacation. Why can't a women have a career and a family but still succeed? Why does it fall on the womans shoulders? The men aren't having families also? I believe its your thinking that contributes to the 'glass ceiling'.
In New Zealand men are allowed parental leave too. They just tend not to take it because it's HARD WORK!
budafist
09-04-2006, 09:23 PM
I definately think women are as talented as men in design. It's just they don't get the recognition they deserve. Maybe it would be smarter to enter design competitions/awards using only your initials...It's sad but you might get more attention this way.
naydies
09-04-2006, 09:43 PM
Naydies, do you have kids? Maternity leave is generally not a vacation for most of the women who take it, as they adjust to their new responsibilities having a child in the house. I don't have kids, but even I can tell you that. It's a lot of sleepless nights if the kid doesn't sleep through, if there are other problems, etc.
I wasn't saying maternity leave was like a long vacation. I said the length is a considerable to a long vacation. As in the length of time not how the time is spent.
cornfed
09-04-2006, 10:08 PM
I think women should get longer than 6 weeks. Go ahead and cut, no rip, yourself from your nads on back a few inches and see how much time you need off!!! It ain't a vacation, trust me. I've done it 3 times. The last time I did it I wised up and went straight to surgery so I would never have to experience childbirth again - after I cursed out the doctor and all the nurses. It took me 6 weeks just to get my mind right! :( Just picking on you, Naydies! I couldn't resist!
I think the market in my area has a lot more female designers than males. Maybe my area is not like everywhere else, not sure. But females here win more addy awards it seems, too.
budafist
09-04-2006, 10:28 PM
I think parents should get 6 weeks paid (government subsidised) and then as much unpaid parental leave as they need.
naydies
09-04-2006, 10:42 PM
Okay, Again, I did not say maternity leave was like a vacation. I said the time off is similar to a long vacation. The comment that I quoted was talking about women taking time off.
It is a fact that in any area, men make up greater proportions of each end of the "scale" in terms of aptitude. The std dev from the average for men is much greater than for women. Simply put: men are either brilliant or poor, women are consistently good. I have no doubt that this is attributed somewhat to social structure - the way our society treats females, BUT, there are phisiological psychological differences between men and women where men have a tendency to be geniuses or idiots.
For example: The Nobel prize, is basically dominated by men. Women have won it, but it is mostly male. This can be attributed to the fact that more men are generally in the genius category (for the given areas of expertise) and the fact that men have been almost exclusively studying these fields up until 40 years ago.
Another example: Based on personal experience, in my design class (no I don't teach it, though somtimes I should, I am a student) at university, the majority of students are female. However, IMO, the best students are actually male, BUT then the worst students are also male.
I believe in the next 100 years we will see less domination by males, as females catch up and start to break the glass ceiling.
To finish; there are different measures of intelligence, I can't remember who said it but i think there is 6 different intelligences: emotional, social etc. Women will always be better at some than men, men better at some than women.
urstwile
09-04-2006, 11:11 PM
Okay, Again, I did not say maternity leave was like a vacation. I said the time off is similar to a long vacation. The comment that I quoted was talking about women taking time off.
Sorry Naydies, if that's not what you meant, but I do have to just say that maternity leave is in no way similar in any way to a long vacation.
And for some women, it used to be that that long vacation was equivalent to not coming back to work at all. At least not to the same job.
I'm not trying to get antsy on ya, but I think you need to rethink the analogy a bit. :)
naydies
09-04-2006, 11:23 PM
Sorry Naydies, if that's not what you meant, but I do have to just say that maternity leave is in no way similar in any way to a long vacation.
And for some women, it used to be that that long vacation was equivalent to not coming back to work at all. At least not to the same job.
I'm not trying to get antsy on ya, but I think you need to rethink the analogy a bit. :)
I give up.
budafist
09-04-2006, 11:28 PM
lol
urstwile
09-04-2006, 11:29 PM
Sorry to hear that. :rolleyes:
CamarotaDesign
09-05-2006, 12:37 AM
I am sooo staying out of this.
But I do want to point out that there have been a few nobel prize winners that were men who were collaborating with a woman, and the woman was not recognized at all.
budafist
09-05-2006, 12:54 AM
At least our primeminister is a women...I think we're getting somewhere!
Broacher
09-05-2006, 01:20 AM
Some interesting (if not a little predictable) responses. Another 'stat' I wish I had was of all the top designers, both men and women, how many achieved their status while in the phase of life starting a family? And of these, how many feel that their role as parent was compromised severely by their commitment to the work?
We have to consider something else though if we're looking for casues of the gender split in 'excellence' of design work. Who defines excellence, and on what terms? Awards and contests? If so, what do they consider as excellence?
I think many of the 'big' contests concentrate on only the high-end portion of this business. Clients with enough money to afford to take creative risks--or survive them.
And if you want to explore discrimination, walk into any big agency's lunchroom and count the creatives over the age of 40, or even 30. More? What about looks? I don't know about your area, but I'm always amazed at the percentage of ad and marketing staff --more execs, but also many designers--who could pass for models. Hey, it sells. Don't have to be a creative genius to see that out here.
I don't how many of you remember the 'tempest' created by one of advertising's greatest grandmasters, Neil French, when he addressed a small crowd of ad people a few years back in Toronto and was quoted for saying some women make lousy top creatives because they lacked the commitment level needed. Ho-boy, did that kick the nest. He later made a very interesting apology that might make interesting reading for anyone interested in getting beyond the 'sensationalized' press clippings:
http://neilfrench.com/apology/index.html
Red Kittie Kat
09-05-2006, 01:24 AM
I don't believe Naydies was trying to dimish the amount of work done by the new mother on maturnity leave. She was trying to explain to Broacher who stated "And I've also noticed that far fewer men get pregnant in the middle of their most productive work years" ..... that they only take 6 weeks off for maturnity leave which in the big scheme of things isn't a lot of time and shouldn't be held against them.
That's the way I took it anyway ;)
naydies
09-05-2006, 01:51 AM
I don't believe Naydies was trying to dimish the amount of work done by the new mother on maturnity leave. She was trying to explain to Broacher who stated "And I've also noticed that far fewer men get pregnant in the middle of their most productive work years" ..... that they only take 6 weeks off for maturnity leave which in the big scheme of things isn't a lot of time and shouldn't be held against them.
That's the way I took it anyway ;)
Thank you, you get what I was saying. I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I guess my 'internet talk' isn't coming across all that well tonight. :) Plus, I'm too tired to try and explain :(
Red Kittie Kat
09-05-2006, 02:07 AM
It's ok ..... I have those times myself ;)
cornfed
09-05-2006, 02:09 AM
I totally got what you were saying. I just felt like picking on you! ;)
JPnyc
09-05-2006, 02:09 AM
Still, I think maternity leave should include vacation time. Regardless of how hard it is, it's still a choice one makes. It's not like coming down with some horrible disease that one needs time off to recouperate from. It's a choice, and as such, you have consequences to deal with.
cornfed
09-05-2006, 02:24 AM
Not necessarily, JP. I was thought to be infertile after I had Dylan, my 12 year old. The doctor is the one who told me I wouldn't be having anymore children. He was wrong.
When Dylan was 8, I got diagnosed with a thyroid problem. Within 6 weeks of being on the proper medications, I was pregnant. Totally unplanned, totally unexpected. I'm glad I had her, but she was totally unplanned and completely unaffordable. I guess I could have had an abortion, but I believe abortion is not for me. I'm not judging anyone who has ever had one, I'm just saying its not for me.
JPnyc
09-05-2006, 02:37 AM
That's going to be too infrequent an occurrence to make special provisions for, I think.
budafist
09-05-2006, 02:38 AM
It takes 2 to make a baby...
cornfed
09-05-2006, 02:46 AM
To tell you the truth, I don't even know why I entered this debate. I've been a freelancer most of the time that I've had kids just so I could stay home with them! I think I'm lucky to have been able to work that out.
JPnyc
09-05-2006, 02:46 AM
Or more. ('cept for earthworms)
naydies
09-05-2006, 02:50 AM
I totally got what you were saying. I just felt like picking on you! ;)
Oh thanks! :p
Still, I think maternity leave should include vacation time. Regardless of how hard it is, it's still a choice one makes. It's not like coming down with some horrible disease that one needs time off to recouperate from. It's a choice, and as such, you have consequences to deal with.
women don't have the choice, the option, of having the father carry the fetus to term, to have the father responsible for breastfeeding, etc. If they did I might have some kids. :p
urstwile
09-05-2006, 03:55 AM
I don't believe Naydies was trying to dimish the amount of work done by the new mother on maturnity leave. She was trying to explain to Broacher who stated "And I've also noticed that far fewer men get pregnant in the middle of their most productive work years" ..... that they only take 6 weeks off for maturnity leave which in the big scheme of things isn't a lot of time and shouldn't be held against them.
That's the way I took it anyway ;)
I think Broacher was being ironic here. How many men do you know who actually get pregnant?
Red Kittie Kat
09-05-2006, 03:57 AM
I realize that ;) He was eluding to women having to take time off for pregnancy and not men.
budafist
09-05-2006, 04:02 AM
Men don't get pregnant, but they should certainly have the option of raising their children as stay-at-home dads. Thus they should get parental leave if they require it. Helps us girls out too.
urstwile
09-05-2006, 04:03 AM
Sorry I took it as much deeper than that.
What Broacher was saying, at least in my estimation, was that women have a very special role, physically, that men will never have. As in having babies. Men will never have to choose to have babies in their most productive years. Women do.
Sorry if I'm making too much of this but you're all wrong. :D
Samakimoto Graphics
09-05-2006, 06:24 AM
At my current job, women get three months paid leave, and the daddy also gets the same amount of leave with similar terms, and like Budafist said many tend not to take the full leave because it's not a vacation... But I'm not planning a family any time soon just the same.
budafist
09-05-2006, 06:43 AM
I think people these days don't plan a family as such. It happens by accident! :D