The business of logo design

[morea]

I mostly end up designing advertisements, programs, forms and things like that, but I have been asked to design a logo or two in the past. I'd like to get some input from people who have more experience with logo design, in case this comes up again in the future.

When you design a logo, what exactly do you supply your customer for files?

I mean, a vector file, obviously, but what else? A color vector and a black and white version? A web-ready version? What format? What else?

As for a graphic standards manual, I have seen a few samples here and there, but the little companies I've done work for don't really need anything as fancy or involved as what I've seen. Anybody have any tips on this?

As far as researching copyright (etc), I haven't ever really had to do that either. I know that to help keep my billable hours down I can let the customer research that themselves (and specify that it is the clients responsibility in the contract to CMA), but I would be interested in knowing how to go about the process.

Is there anything I should be thinking about that I haven't considered?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys. ;)

[budafist]

I don't do graphics manuals - we normally get small time customers, but if you are working with a big company they will want one.

You need to ask your customer what files they need. Giving some clients eps and ai files is useless. You may find them calling up demanding why they can't open these logos!

We are a printing company first though, design studio second. So any files we create we general just keep on file for their jobs in the future. We make logos depending on what we want to use them for ourselves. We give logos out only when requested by the client.

[urstwile]

Generally, when we do logo designs for clients at work, in the end we give them a black and white version, a PMS version (if applicable), a CMYK version, and a reversed out version. As EPS files. We also provide them with JPEGs where applicable, black and white and color. Obviously, not the reversed out version for the JPEGs.

In terms of graphic guidelines, I can e-mail you a couple of PDF's we've done lately, when I get to work tomorrow.

Depending on the complexity, you'd generally specify things like color, fonts to use for text and subheads, minimum clear space between layout elements and the logo, etc.

Can't help you on the copyright thing, I don't know anything about how that's done, I think that usually the account people take care of that, or the client researches that themselves.

Hope that helps. :)

[morea]

most helpful so far... and please do send the samples if you can, urstwile... you've got my email addy. ;)

Keep 'em coming, folks, I want to know this inside and out. :D

[MD]

with certian customers - no matter how many times or differet versions i have sent them - i get a call from them needing something different. ;)

usually I give them the standard versions.
both black & white and color versions in
.eps
.jpg - decent resolution (for use in word documents etc.)
.tif - high resolution

[budafist]

Oh yes, don't give them lots of different formats until you are SURE there aren't any more changes coming. It's so annoying having to resave in a bunch of formats...

[PrintDriver]

Annoying but billable.

Do a nice presentation package with the various formats on a CD and a standards sheet. Make it a nice folder thing or notebook they can keep handy. Maybe give a quick explanation of the file types so they don't get annoyed with trying to open a wrong format. Keep it simple.

What gets really irksome for a client is when they need something and the designer has gone on vacation and they can't get access to the format they need. The other irksome thing, at least as a sign shop, is dealing with a designer to get files when they feel they should have been consulted first, even though it is the CLIENT'S logo. LOL!

Morea, for the copyright searches, don't undertake that yourself. Lots of liability there.
Find a copyright lawyer and consult with him/her concerning fees for legal searches and roll that into the price of the logo as a 'service'.

[G-Man79]

I provide our clients with b&w, full color, spot color vectors (usually .eps). I also send them a large raster version (b&w, full color) of the logo. That way, they can resize accordingly for web/email use and they have something for a printer if they have letterhead/business card needs.

I'll also store the files on our web server in a .zip file in case I'm away and they've "misplaced" the files. I just email them the link and they're set.

[BJMRGTIVR6]

That's a nice idea about keeping them on your webserver. Another thing you might do (as I have done) is in case the logo is changed at a smaller size (sans flourishes and other small parts) make sure you give them those as well. I would deliniate the logos into folders....."print" "web" "large" small" etc. this will help them lead to teh right path when needed. and possibly as part of the manual, explain, as best you can, the differences in logos so you don't get an urgent call.

[Drazan]

Does your company have a contract that waives liability for trademark or infringement issues? You can create a complete logo from your head that might look simular enough to some obscure logo that someone has a trademark for. If you don't have a clause in a contract that holds you harmless from such legal action you could be setting yourself up for a big-time legal headache.

As for the process, your best bet is hiring a legal department to do it for you. However, you could try the local library. Most bigger cities have the trademark researching materials available. If you are not in the US - not a clue. There's a few online pay services as well, but do your research on them.

If you are dealing with an international company, then a legal department is a must or the client must deal with it. It's one of the reasons international high branded logos hit national news for cost. Every country they market must be checked for brand identification, language issues, symbol issues, and reception.

Now if only we could land a company like Xerox (http://www.bizcommunity.com/Article/196/12/11645.html). ;)

[dayna]

..

[PrintDriver]

Dayna- a logo is very VERY different.
The client usually pays to OWN it which includes the copyright. And they usually ask that up front to be put in the contract. And you should charge accordingly. If they don't ask, you should explain it to them.

If you don't supply all formats of a logo for your client to use wherever and however he wants then you do your client a disservice. Holding a logo hostage is one sure way to lose said client.

You also want to be very careful about holding other files hostage as well. Be sure your contract states that you will not be providing editable files, that providing access to said files will require an additional fee, AND that you will take full responsibility that the format you send to the printer (so HE doesn't steal it too) is going to print correctly.

Then don't EVER go on vacation.
LOL!

[BJMRGTIVR6]

I would include the Vector (EPS) format logo as well as other versions. Yes, I think the client should own what he/she paid for. PLus, if they ever need to send a file for a local coupon booklet or something that is designed on site, or perhaps a simple logo'd banner without anything else, then the vector file is neccesary and a good way to build a relationship where they will want to come back to you because you gave them what they need.

However, people do things differently. to each their own. I do not supply the letterhead/business card/envelope/etc. files.

[PrintDriver]

This is a whole nuther arguement. Who owns the files you create. Logos though should be owned by the corporate entity they represent. If more people realized that a designer is giving up creative license to the art they mightn't balk at paying a decent fee for a logo.

If someone wants to take their logo to a sign shop, a tradeshow company, a videographer, or a TV advertiser, what business is that of the designer? Especially if none of those specialties are in the designer's skill set.

[Kool]

i would only supply the client with a jpeg file... in cmyk for print, or rgb for screen.

I would never give a client the working file (ie the vector file as an .ai or eps)... if you do.. then what is stopping them from taking these files to another designer later on to do other work? ALWAYS KEEP the working files so the client returns to YOU for future work.

That goes for letterheads.. business cards, with comp slips, etc... ONLY ever supply the client with the PDF version... without crops/trims and printer marks etc.

I couldn't disagree more with this.

"then what is stopping them from taking these files to another designer later on to do other work?"

Your skills and your customer service is what will be bringing a customer back. If you have to hold a clients files hostage in order to get them to still use you then well....

When I was in pre press if a designer would only give me a jpeg to print from I would advise that customer to find another designer. Fast!

[BJMRGTIVR6]

Another note is the idea behind having the logo approved to make sure it is not sttealing anyone else's work. If you are in sole posession of the logo, then you might be at fault, if you let the logo to teh client who is now in charge, then it may be on that person.....not that anyone here steals logos, but therer may be an instant where a logo looks close to another.

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

I provide the client with just about every type of file they could possibily need - in black & white and color - on a CD with folders for "print" and "Web" images. If for some reason the client needs the fonts contained within the logo I purchase a copy of the font for them or direct them to where the typeface may be purchased. I provide several copies of the CD and always maintain an easily accessed archive of the files on my computer system. If a client can lose the disks they will. I've had clients come back ten years later needing the replacement files.

Very seldom am I requested to produce a "standards manual" but there have been a few cases where I have been asked to put together condensed usage guidelines. Usually it's just several pages of how the logo should (and in some cases, how it should not) be used.

I always leave the trademarking of a logo up to the client or their attorney. It's just not how I want to be spending my time.

My project agreement contains the language: "The designer retains personal rights to use the completed project and any preliminary designs for the purpose of design competitions, future publications on design, educational purposes and the marketing of the designer's business. Where applicable the client will be given any necessary credit for usage of the project elements."

The above allows me to enter the logo in design competitions, submit for use in design books and make use of the design for my own marketing/promotion without having to constantly go back to the client for approval/permission.

Good luck! - J.

[urstwile]

Blast and Arrrrr! Cap'n Morea I should be made to walk the plank for forgetting to send you a PDF of some examples. Shiver me timbers, me mind's a sieve from all the grog! Sendin' meself a message in a bottle now. Yarrr!

[morea]

no rush, lass... I dunna e'en have meself a logo project at the moment.

Thank ye all for yer replies. 'Tis been a valuable education.

[dayna]

Dayna- a logo is very VERY different.
The client usually pays to OWN it which includes the copyright. And they usually ask that up front to be put in the contract. And you should charge accordingly. If they don't ask, you should explain it to them.

If you don't supply all formats of a logo for your client to use wherever and however he wants then you do your client a disservice. Holding a logo hostage is one sure way to lose said client.

You also want to be very careful about holding other files hostage as well. Be sure your contract states that you will not be providing editable files, that providing access to said files will require an additional fee, AND that you will take full responsibility that the format you send to the printer (so HE doesn't steal it too) is going to print correctly.

Then don't EVER go on vacation.
LOL!

Hi Printdriver..
Wow... I never thought of it the way you put it... What i said was what i had just learnt in class a few months ago..
hmmm maybe YOU need to give my Lecturer a lesson!!!

haha... Im actually finding this forum (which i joined last night) more informative than my classes!

I think this forum is going to be my new life-line!
Thanks Printdriver

[budafist]

I think you should give an eps to clients if they ask for it. They're paying you to design a logo for them. They're not paying you for a logo just to look at.

Signwriters need vector files too so denying your client those files means crappy signs right?

[urstwile]

Yup, I mean Yarrrr (one hour to go here for TLAP day). We give EPS, TIFF, JPEG. I'm guessing it's in the agency contract.

[PrintDriver]

Signwriters need vector files too so denying your client those files means crappy signs right?

Any sign guy worth his salt is going to call the client before they attempt to vectorize a crappy jpg, first to ask for a vector, or second, to tell them about the artwork charge. :D

A vector file usually turns up. If the designer isn't on vacation. :p

[Jackimalyn]

OK, so when I give my client the final disk with all the logo formats on it, would it be inapporpriate to include my contact info on the CD? Like you guys were saying addind a word document or something to explain the file formats... add my name and contact info in there? My client looses my number every time I leave. I have to call and check every once in a while.
Leaving him a business card would be pointless... Ive left plenty but i want him to be able to refer me... or call if theres any problems.

[morea]

link to related thread: http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6580

[Ned]

I just came to this thread, but regarding whoever said they don't provide vector files...

What is the point of creating resolution-independent vector artwork, if it can't even be used as such! That's complete and utter nonsense, if you ask me. Especially for a logo (which should never be provided as anything less), but even for any other artwork created as vector art. The whole point of vector illustration is to produce high-quailty print, not to rasterize it and bastardize it!

Jacki: You can put your contact information whereever you damned well please! It's your work, and the client WANTS to be able to contact you. You're not soliciting anything.

As far as colors, I always provide logos in Greyscale and Full-Color Versions. The full-color may or may not contain spot color(s). Depending on the logo, I may provide a light or white version (for dark backgrounds), and a dark or black version (for light backgrounds). Besides the vector EPS files, I will usually provide a high-res raster version (tiff) of whatever I provide in vector, depending on how I judge the client's ability to convert. If they have specific uses that they can provide (ie, placement in a website at specific dimensions), then I will provide the logo in the exact pixel dimensions and format required.

[budafist]

OK, so when I give my client the final disk with all the logo formats on it, would it be inapporpriate to include my contact info on the CD? Like you guys were saying addind a word document or something to explain the file formats... add my name and contact info in there? My client looses my number every time I leave. I have to call and check every once in a while.
Leaving him a business card would be pointless... Ive left plenty but i want him to be able to refer me... or call if theres any problems.

No, that's a great idea to leave your details with the CD. Also good idea to do the same when you are sending a disk the printers.

We have hundreds of CDs - many without labels. I try to label them as I open them, but what are people thinking not writing on CDs?

[Jackimalyn]

thanks buda

[PrintDriver]

Many designers who send me disks have imprinted labels with their contact info on them as well as file name/format info. It's very handy.

[Spaz Chicken]

When I generate a logo, 9 times out of 10 I produce (or have produced) the products that the client needs, so I hardly ever have to give them the files. Unless they are doing some sort of advertising through an agency (yellow pages, newspapers, etc) in which case I send what the agency asks for (usually eps or pdf).

[budafist]

When I am designing a logo at work it is normally because the company has decided they need a business card. As we are the printer also, we generally don't give them the logo. We just give them printed cards.

However we often give out logos when requested. Free of charge too. Don't ask me why! It's my boss that thinks that design work isn't really worth much - so designers spending time emailing and burning CDs is worth less in his eyes - not to warrant charging them.

It annoys me how my bosses don't really realise what we do. My boss honestly thinks that there is a button we press to do jobs. Such as "lay 8up business cards" or "lay up file to create GTO plate". Grrrr... At least I got a raise yesterday. A whole dollar on my hourly rate...

[gr7ap2hi0cs]

I email:

.eps (with text outlined) (spot color)
.pdf
.gif

Fonts

Graphic Standards Sheet: (.pdf) I include the company name, logo, pantone swatches, fonts, as well as our company logo with contact information if anyone ever needs anything else.

Mail: CD with logo files, graphic standards, fonts, and cover with their new logo on it.

To be honest I usually only send a black and white versions and CMYK versions if they request it. most people don't and nobody ever says anything or comes back and requests one!? I guess i should start including those versions too!!!! :D good thing for this thread.

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

I email:

.eps (with text outlined) (spot color)
.pdf
.gif

Fonts

Graphic Standards Sheet: (.pdf) I include the company name, logo, pantone swatches, fonts, as well as our company logo with contact information if anyone ever needs anything else.

Mail: CD with logo files, graphic standards, fonts, and cover with their new logo on it.

To be honest I usually only send a black and white versions and CMYK versions if they request it. most people don't and nobody ever says anything or comes back and requests one!? I guess i should start including those versions too!!!! :D good thing for this thread.

Providing the client with the fonts is most likely against the licensing agreement for the font in question - unless otherwise specified.

I will purchase the font for the client and include it in the package sent to them as a separate license - or direct the client to where they can purchase the font for their own use.

- J.