The Designer's Career Life Span

[max_nhk]

Has anyone though of this?

It crossed my mind a while ago that I seldom see designers of age around 40. I can only presume the bulk of them/us left for greener pastures elsewhere along the way. Then again it could be just me not seeing enough...

Yet I can't help but feel concern...

What happens when I reach 40 and employers would rather pay less for a younger, cheaper fresher designer? I understand I'll have the advantage of experience, yet how many made it to the top?

[mac.FINN]

Ever see Logan's Run?

Honestly, I know quite a few designers over forty.

[Jackimalyn]

a lot of older designers arent old designers... a lot of the older ones have only been in the graphic industry for a few years. I took a lot of night classes in college and it was filled with 40+ year olds new to the industry. (no offense but i think they should have been required to take an intro to computers course first....) So I dont know... do you think they should all be art directors by now or something? Well thats what I think it is... older people but young designers.

[max_nhk]

Ever see Logan's Run?

Honestly, I know quite a few designers over forty.

Nope

[The_Black_Knight]

I've known a few designers over 40. I've known very, very few designers over 50. I've wondered what happens to them, as well.

For myself, I plan on teaching at a college or university, so I will be dropping out of the corporate/agency scene before I'm 40.

[The_Black_Knight]

So I dont know... do you think they should all be art directors by now or something? Well thats what I think it is... older people but young designers.I haven't even known many art directors over 50. Early 40s maybe. Maybe by that age they just go off and start their own agencies.

[max_nhk]

do you think they should all be art directors by now or something?

Not exactly. The question lies basically on the probability of someone spending his/her whole life in this till retirement. Assuming with an average design skills.

There's no doubt I love what I'm doing and I spent inhumane hours and extra efforts to achieve better results. But I don't know if I could do so ten years down the road. Art director or not.

[captain spanky]

Ever see Logan's Run?

No, but i saw Hogan's Heros...
Schultz! Close the gates! The War is back on!

[Bob]

Old designers never die... they just show up on forums and pretend they're not dead.

That is, if they're not busy wandering down city streets clutching a brown paper bag and muttering, "The Kaiser has stolen my string!" to passerbys.

[greyghost]

There's no doubt I love what I'm doing and I spent inhuman hours and extra efforts to achieve better results. But I don't know if I could do so ten years down the road. Art director or not.

I think this is a good reason. I know how exhausted I am from working around the clock far too much. It gets harder the older you get. I'm 30 in 2 months, and it gets old doing this all the time. I hope to expand and have some young face in here in a few years.

[max_nhk]

For myself, I plan on teaching at a college or university, so I will be dropping out of the corporate/agency scene before I'm 40.

Yep, I felt that's a good way too. One thing I hate as a student is lecturers without proper working experience.

[colonel5]

I've actually thought about this for a bit and though I don't see a complete 180 career change I'm looking at getting into real estate investing as a back up career and a way to build up a good financial status

[EC]

I'm 36 and there's no way I'd be doing this if I was working for somebody else at this point. I retired from the agency life when I was 24.

I'll do this as long as I'm having fun, then I'll do something else.

[max_nhk]

I think this is a good reason. I know how exhausted I am from working around the clock far too much. It gets harder the older you get. I'm 30 in 2 months, and it gets old doing this all the time. I hope to expand and have some young face in here in a few years.


Haunted by your age, ghost?
I am just one year behind ya. lol.

Ya running your own firm?

[The_Black_Knight]

Yep, I felt that's a good way too. One thing I hate as a student is lecturers without proper working experience.Fortunately, my school was good about hiring professors that had been in the business for a while. None of my important classes were taught by people without experience.

[Jackimalyn]

old designers never die. they simply.... fade away.

[mac.FINN]

Has NO ONE seen Logan's Run? Did anyone get that reference? Sheez!

Almost All my college professors were either Designers or retired designers. They were all in their 30's - 40's (or older).

[The_Black_Knight]

Has NO ONE seen Logan's Run? Did anyone get that reference? Sheez!

Almost All my college professors were either Designers or retired designers. They were all in their 30's - 40's (or older).I got the reference, mac. I haven't actually seen it, but I got the reference.

[max_nhk]

old designers never die. they simply.... fade away.

Like most others, I'm where I am now because mainly of passion. But passion and commercial doesn't mix, thus I find myself not exactly where I hope to be.

A while ago, I tried to engage someguy who has a neat portfolio on the web. I got turn down for that designer does not want to trade his creative freedom for cash.

I plan to and may soon cease to be making my living in this industry. But my passion for design will not cease. Infact, it'll only grow futher and wider.

[max_nhk]

Has NO ONE seen Logan's Run? Did anyone get that reference? Sheez!

Almost All my college professors were either Designers or retired designers. They were all in their 30's - 40's (or older).

Still nope! Care to just feed me the story direct? I don't think I'll have time to look that up.

I guess I'm not luck enough. My lecturers are dumb asses whom has travelled to a few places and done some design. Looks good on them but in actual fact I considered them runaways from the real and stressful life of design. I can't find a word worst enough to describe their teachings!

[PrintDriver]

Actually, think about this, most designers over 40 used to do paste up. How many actually made the crossover into the electronic age without shifting to the production side?

I've seen Logan's run.
Boom!

[The_Black_Knight]

Still nope! Care to just feed me the story direct? I don't think I'll have time to look that up.

I guess I'm not luck enough. My lecturers are dumb asses whom has travelled to a few places and done some design. Looks good on them but in actual fact I considered them runaways from the real and stressful life of design. I can't find a word worst enough to describe their teachings!The gist of Logan's Run (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_run) is that it's a society in the future that, to control population, kills everyone over the age of 35.

[mac.FINN]

Apparently Joel Silver is remaking Logan's Run (1977) and it's slated to be out in 2007.

[max_nhk]

Actually, think about this, most designers over 40 used to do paste up. How many actually made the crossover into the electronic age without shifting to the production side?

I've seen Logan's run.
Boom!

You've got a impt point there PD, I didn't thought of that. I guess we're in the beginning of a new era...

[PrintDriver]

Great. Yet another Hollywood work of art. Anyone else tired of remakes? Especially remakes of Classics?

[The_Black_Knight]

Apparently Joel Silver is remaking Logan's Run (1977) and it's slated to be out in 2007.Great. I love remakes. I wish there were more.

Did everyone catch the sarcasm there? Did you?

[The_Black_Knight]

Great. Yet another Hollywood work of art. Anyone else tired of remakes? Especially remakes of Classics?Ha! Even the sarcasm is the same in both posts!

[max_nhk]

The gist of Logan's Run (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_run) is that it's a society in the future that, to control population, kills everyone over the age of 35.

Thanks Knight.

The person whom impost that stupid idea must sexually handicapped or just plain stupid.

[jimking]

I saw Logans Run when it was first released to the theaters. Everyone was taken by surprise when the actors popped out of the ground and found themselves in downtown Washington DC. I was at the Uptown Theatre on Connecticut Ave. downtown Washington.

[Virgo Nightingale]

Great. Yet another Hollywood work of art. Anyone else tired of remakes? Especially remakes of Classics?

This phenomenon has a name. It's called, "Hollywood Has Run Out of Original Ideas."

[(gra-ph!c-D'sig-nah)]

This phenomenon has a name. It's called, "Hollywood Has Run Out of Original Ideas."

That is the truth!

[urstwile]

This phenomenon has a name. It's called, "Hollywood Has Run Out of Original Ideas."

More likely, they're too afraid to implement any of the new ideas they're no doubt getting, and instead stick to stuff that's been done before, to assure box office bank, or an attempt at assuring it.

Has NO ONE seen Logan's Run? Did anyone get that reference? Sheez!

Almost All my college professors were either Designers or retired designers. They were all in their 30's - 40's (or older).
Like Jim, I saw this in the theater. If the premise had come true, I would have been dead 13 years ago. :rolleyes:

[Brie]

Ok, I too, saw Logan's run, although not in the theaters, I saw it on Tv. However, I am 40 yrs old, started GD when paste up was PASTE UP, got burned out, dropped out, did fine art and basically starved for another 10-15 yrs, then went back and got a 4 yr digital GD degree. I guess I should be dead, too. Most of my prof's were in their 40s or 50s...Teaching is ok, I guess, but I'd still rather be on the creative end. have your kids late in life...they keep you young!! Or at least too exhausted to know the difference!

[Ned]

Back on topic... When designers get older, they make their money by selling books, teaching design, or moving on to an art director or creative director. The "greener pastures" in Graphic Design are not out of our field, but only new designers actually do the grunt work. There are enough new designers out there to cover that territory.

At least, that's what I see...

[urstwile]

I think those are some very good points, Ned.

[balou]

Uh oh. I'm 42 and still doing the grunting. hmmmm

[Ned]

Balou... We don't need to hear about your nightlife. We're talking about design, here!

[balou]

Oops, wrong forum! :D

[Ned]

Not to worry... happens to me all the time. :)

[greyghost]

Balou... We don't need to hear about your nightlife. We're talking about design, here!

Bwahahaha!

I'm still grunting too :(

[Ned]

Good for you, Greyghost. I'm glad to hear we're such an 'active' bunch here. :D

[SurfPark]

I have a few questions. First, has graphic design been an industry to justify older designers? My professor was in her 40's and said she began with tracing type books for specific fonts, typesetting, old style printing, and many old fashioned craft skills that really made the design process a challenge. She wasn't called a graphic designer by title, but often refered to as a layout artist, type setter, and or just artist. She changed with the times but now does freelance design and usability projects. I don't think people that might have started their design career in their 20's, worked twenty years in the field, and are now 40 years old, are still doing the same work they've always done. The industry has changed so much, I'm not sure that people that started doing design work early on have kept the same role or even the same title.

I also think the computer learning curve has kept a whole generation from easily adapting into this field. To ask a typical 40 year old if they use a computer on a daily basis, I think its hit or miss. Skew down and ask someone 20 or 30, and the numbers go up. I honestly think the people involved in design have to have at least some interest in computers outside of design. If you're not interested in computing, how likely will a person seek a job that requires using a computer most of the time?

Any other theories?

[Samakimoto Graphics]

I haven't even known many art directors over 50. Early 40s maybe. Maybe by that age they just go off and start their own agencies.

That's what I've seen "over here":) too. A lot of them quit employment in their mid 30s and start a freelance business. The way it is "over here", having worked in the industry before staring out on your own is the norm.

[Samakimoto Graphics]

This phenomenon has a name. It's called, "Hollywood Has Run Out of Original Ideas."

It's happening in the music industry too...:rolleyes:

[Ned]

That's what I've seen "over here":) too. A lot of them quit employment in their mid 30s and start a freelance business. The way it is "over here", having worked in the industry before staring out on your own is the norm.

Running a design business as your sole means of income is not easy. That is why it's best to work for somebody else until you've developed a good portfolio, and have created a reputation for yourself. Then when you're ready to strike out on your own, you can get your clients by your own merit.

Of course, I never really had that opportunity. I struck out on my own from the start, because nobody else would hire me, but me. After I gained some experience and developed a good portfolio, then people would start to hire me on a more permanent basis - but I still do best on my own. :)

Now I have regular clients, I have repeat clients, and I have new clients. Some clients I see every week, at their office, just like any 9 to 5 job, others see me, in my office or in cyberspace. But ALL work is filtered through my business, by contract.

[urstwile]

I have a few questions. First, has graphic design been an industry to justify older designers? My professor was in her 40's and said she began with tracing type books for specific fonts, typesetting, old style printing, and many old fashioned craft skills that really made the design process a challenge. She wasn't called a graphic designer by title, but often refered to as a layout artist, type setter, and or just artist. She changed with the times but now does freelance design and usability projects. I don't think people that might have started their design career in their 20's, worked twenty years in the field, and are now 40 years old, are still doing the same work they've always done. The industry has changed so much, I'm not sure that people that started doing design work early on have kept the same role or even the same title.

I also think the computer learning curve has kept a whole generation from easily adapting into this field. To ask a typical 40 year old if they use a computer on a daily basis, I think its hit or miss. Skew down and ask someone 20 or 30, and the numbers go up. I honestly think the people involved in design have to have at least some interest in computers outside of design. If you're not interested in computing, how likely will a person seek a job that requires using a computer most of the time?

Any other theories?

My theory is that if you've been doing something for a long time, you can go in one or two directions. I'll be upfront here, I'm 48.

One direction is that your industry changes in a vast way and you learn what you need to learn to keep up. Why? Because you want to keep doing what you're doing.

The other direction is "ahh, f**k it, I'm done with your stinkin' ch-ch-ch-anges, so I'm gonna go be a ___ fill in the blank.

When I started as a typesetter, back in 1978 ( :eek: ), I was the new wave. Type had, up until then, been set with Linotype machines, involved molten metal, and all the typesetters were guys. The introduction of computer typesetting, way primitive back then compared to current standards, was still a newfangled technique. Typesetters had to make the transition or eventually lose their jobs. Art directors still actually art directed, rather than doing the production themselves. There were technicians, craftspeople, if you will, of which I was one, eventually.

Nowadays, the programs do so much for you, even to the point of making you almost a production person, or, correction, making you THINK you're capable of production. Trust me, for the most part, unless you started off in some type of production role, chances are you think you're stuff is production ready, chances are also strong that it's not.

In terms of the original question, where do all the old graphic designers go? I think that Ned was closest, they probably turned into art directors, or creative directors, or as another poster said, they're teaching. Or as PD and Broacher said, found a niche in production and stayed there. That's where I am right now. I do freelance as much as I can, and I keep up my skills, I like to learn, but there is an emphasis on youth in the newer jobs.

[Buda]

Also if you're working in front of a computer for 20 years, 40 hours a week, that's over 40,000 hours. You're eyes and mouse wrists have given up by then.

[Ned]

Good point, Buda... The 'carpal tunnel' factor hadn't even occured to me.

[Ned]

I think that Ned was closest, they probably turned into art directors, or creative directors, or as another poster said, they're teaching.

Yeah, I said that, too... :D

... When designers get older, they make their money by selling books, teaching design...

[Samakimoto Graphics]

What's Logomotove doing? I think he is a good authority on this one...

[Ned]

You mean Jeff Fisher? Did you just call him OLD!? :D

[Samakimoto Graphics]

You mean Jeff Fisher? Did you just call him OLD!? :D

Uh,... well no:D; but he's been in the industry a while. I know he is a writer as well, and I've seen some sound guidance from him on here.

[erichmond]

Nope

Oh c'mon! everyone has seen Logan's Run?? unless your only 12

[Ned]

Oh c'mon! everyone has seen Logan's Run?? unless your only 12

So what if I am? :mad:

[erichmond]

So what if I am? :mad:
Go to the video store and hire the movie

[Ned]

I've already seen it, Elliot. I was just joshing.

Out of curiosity, though... I notice you said, "hire the movie". Is that a proper UK term? In North America, we would "rent" it.

[erichmond]

I've already seen it, Elliot. I was just joshing.

Out of curiosity, though... I notice you said, "hire the movie". Is that a proper UK term? In North America, we would "rent" it.
np, I figued you were joshing.... uhm term, I guess we would say rent, is joshing a Kanadian term or is that UK? ;)

[Ned]

Joshing... it would be a very inappropriate term to use around anybody named 'Josh'. :)

[max_nhk]

Oh c'mon! everyone has seen Logan's Run?? unless your only 12

Nope. Not 12 either. Lol.

[max_nhk]

I have a few questions. First, has graphic design been an industry to justify older designers? My professor was in her 40's and said she began with tracing type books for specific fonts, typesetting, old style printing, and many old fashioned craft skills that really made the design process a challenge. She wasn't called a graphic designer by title, but often refered to as a layout artist, type setter, and or just artist. She changed with the times but now does freelance design and usability projects. I don't think people that might have started their design career in their 20's, worked twenty years in the field, and are now 40 years old, are still doing the same work they've always done. The industry has changed so much, I'm not sure that people that started doing design work early on have kept the same role or even the same title.

I'm not sure what you meant by your first question. As it's still early to know what's gonna happen down the road, I can only assume.

Technology is moving fast. As people becomes more intouch with computers, it becomes easy for everyone to engage in designing. With or without training. Take for example, with the implementation of digital cameras, more people are taking up photography.

Eventually, IF everybody becomes equally capable in the technical issues, the only designers whom will survive will only those that really have the (high octane) creative juice. Even then, I believe it'll be difficult for the market might become saturated with so many designers around...

[PrintDriver]

You're gonna have to bump that age group up Surfpark. 40 year olds would have had access to the TRS80's and Apple II's back in 76/77/78. I was in high school and I'd say at least 1/4 of the kids had one or the other even then (we had a 64k Apple II plus with green monochrome monitor and a dot matrix printer with raised descenders - woo hoo).

But back on the topic - not everyone gets carpal tunnel or eyestrain. And there's a really big difference between "taking up" a discipline like design or photography, and actually making a career of it. By 40 most people know if they are making it in this career. Heck, most know it by 25 or so. It would be cool to see a demographic showing age to income just to see if the data can be skewed to support my theory.

[Ned]

It would be cool to see a demographic showing age to income just to see if the data can be skewed to support my theory.

All data can be skewed in Photoshop. :D

[PrintDriver]

Heck, I used to be able to do it with the math.

[Ned]

Heck, I used to be able to do it with the math.

Yeah, me too. Until they tried to charge me for 'embezzlement', or some other 4 syllable word. :D

[wienerdog]

You're gonna have to bump that age group up Surfpark. 40 year olds would have had access to the TRS80's and Apple II's back in 76/77/78. I was in high school and I'd say at least 1/4 of the kids had one or the other even then (we had a 64k Apple II plus with green monochrome monitor and a dot matrix printer with raised descenders - woo hoo).

But back on the topic - not everyone gets carpal tunnel or eyestrain. And there's a really big difference between "taking up" a discipline like design or photography, and actually making a career of it. By 40 most people know if they are making it in this career. Heck, most know it by 25 or so. It would be cool to see a demographic showing age to income just to see if the data can be skewed to support my theory.

I agree that most in this field know by their mid-20s if they're good enough or patient enough to stick with it or move on. Two designers I knew from a few jobs ago both left the company and took positions outside of design because the company was becoming financially unreliable. It's a shame because both of them were very talented.

Most of the people I've met in the industry were women aged 25-40. I would say the older ones were burned out by disappointment from lack of creativity in their positions. Some freelanced and were burned by that too, I guess.

I should note that even my current position isn't "Graphic Designer." I'm pretty much the sales dept's Jack-of-All-Trades in terms of marketing design and administration. So even I had to adapt to the lack of designer positions for someone like me and take a job that involves more desktop publishing than truly creative work.

I'm fearful of my career's future because of lack of creative work that stands out. I'm launching a personal initiative to learn to keep up with web design in the hopes that those skills will help keep me employed down the line.

I'm concerned about the future of design because of younger designers who are willing to take less money or people who aren't designers but learned the software, and take of their company's needs in that area.

[Six]

This thread hit a nerve - not because I am 62 though. This is a subject I have given a lot of thought to and I believe there are differfent answers for each designer.

I know two designers I graduated with that are still very active and very creative and very successful right here in New Orleans. One runs his own shop and the other sort of works alone and has helpers. The first embraced technology and brags he had the first Mac in the local trade. The other did not, yet he is still successful, because he is very talented and developed a system whereby he can focus on design and have others do much of the execution, especially the computer stuff, which to my knowledge he has little to do with. He actually still designs pretty much using the same process he developed in school. It works for him and works well.

So there are over-40 designers out there, even over-60! Most, however, have gotten out of the business for a variety of rasons or remain in the business functioning at another level - like me.

When I first got in this business after the AF when I would run into old classmates we would seek info on others. What we heard often was not good. We developed the saying that advertising design produced a lot of insurance salesmen. Some probably should not have been in the business because they didn't have the ability, and others because they just couldn't get a job that paid enough even though talented and capable.

What is the career path for designers? For me the most logical was the one I followed, which was an agency path (but it may not be the best for you). I began as a GD and was promoted to art director, then creative director, and finally I am running the place for the owner who doesn't know anything about design and leaves me alone for the most part. In the beginning I thought I was doomed to be poor for the rest of my life, but I had a job I loved and was feeding myself and my family. Gradually the money got better but mainly because of promotions.

Lesson: if you want to make the "big bucks" get promoted. Another avenue to riches is to be so damn good that you can pick your jobs and charge whatever you want, but there aren't many of those around. One example would my #2 friend above.

Getting promoted often means doing less designing. I spend most of my day managing this agency and designing through my art directors, who frankly are better than I am, and that is the way it should be. They are very good, very eager, and very talented, and they are more up on the software than I am. (I only dabble these days.) Someday they will be capable of managing their own business if that is what they want (and one does), because I am teaching him how to do that.

Words from the old man: Stay up with technology or you will be left behind, and be prepared to grow. If you don't want to hit a glass ceiling, probably you should learn more about the business end and things like spreadsheets, P/L, and managing people. Or be very very talented and hope you can name your own price.

What does the future hold? This one scares me! I have seen the business go through a major metamorphosis twice, first when hot type died killing type shops, then when computers hit followed by the service bureaus coming and going into oblivion.

We are in number three now, and that of course is the internet. It opens up possibilities we have never thought of, some good and many bad. You do know you can buy designs in China? I am concerned that design will become more and more templated and taken over by untalented and untrained individuals because they have access to the enabling tools and can. This career field will get harder to be successful in, unless designers can carve out a niche that has some security. Even then, we must stay nimble and be prepared to adapt to the changing environment.

I tell my people all the time, the business today is very different from thirty years ago. It is also very different from just five years ago, and five, ten years from now it will have changed again. Change is inevitable - be prepared to deal with it.

Six

[wienerdog]

We are in number three now, and that of course is the internet. It opens up possibilities we have never thought of, some good and many bad. You do know you can buy designs in China? I am concerned that design will become more and more templated and taken over by untalented and untrained individuals because they have access to the enabling tools and can. This career field will get harder to be successful in, unless designers can carve out a niche that has some security. Even then, we must stay nimble and be prepared to adapt to the changing environment.

That's some great advice. Two things that frustrate me being in this field:
1) Untrained people who think they can buy software program and suddenly they're a designer. Anyone who starts a project with a mouse and keyboard is probably terrible, or so gifted they can sketch comps and decide what to use in their head.

2) The lack of opportunity for a designer to truly use their creativity and have any semblance of control over a project from start to finish. It feels like it's nearly impossible to get a decent job at an agency, and even if you're lucky enough to get one, your salary doesn't reflect the amount of work you do. I've been torn between going to agency route vs. in-house design positions. It feels like for the long-term career goals, an agency can get you high profile projects or get you involved in award-winning work. Many people are taking marketing/administrative positions that incorporate spending anywhere from 25-75% of my time doing actual design work that pay more than actual designer positions.

Something I've learned over the first 5 years in this business is a job doing marketing materials for a company can often mean that you're doing the company's desktop publishing and not graphic design. There's a BIG difference between the two.

[reuber1]

Come to eastern Iowa, Designer's 40+ is practically all you can find. If you're young, you're essentially ignored unless your portfolio is groundbreaking stuff, and I mean groundbreaking, not just "really good" which isn't good enough. They want people with experience out the hoo-ha and are only willing to pay the equivalent of entry level.

[wienerdog]

Come to eastern Iowa, Designer's 40+ is practically all you can find. If you're young, you're essentially ignored unless your portfolio is groundbreaking stuff, and I mean groundbreaking, not just "really good" which isn't good enough. They want people with experience out the hoo-ha and are only willing to pay the equivalent of entry level.

Why does it seem that here on the East Coast in major metropolitan areas we expect and sometimes even get higher salaries? Is the cost of living that much higher here than the mid-west?

Are there more companies competing for the same talent?

[reuber1]

Cost of living in the midwest is low, but so is the pay...which makes getting out all the harder. Some guy who just moved into town here from California bought three houses on our block, all facing the river.

[Logo-Mechanix]

37 here and I don't plan on going anywhere...except maybe Disneyland when the kids are old enough.

[Six]

Why does it seem that here on the East Coast in major metropolitan areas we expect and sometimes even get higher salaries? Is the cost of living that much higher here than the mid-west?

Are there more companies competing for the same talent?

Salaries are driven only somewhat by cost of living. In CA, for example, the cost of housing is very high and that will impact a salary. The main driver is competition or what some call "cost of hiring". How much does someone have to pay to get good people?

Six

[Six]

Some guy who just moved into town here from California bought three houses on our block, all facing the river.

He probably sold a little three bedroom one bath, 1000 sq feet cottage for $750,000+. That is how bad housing costs are out there.

Six

[reuber1]

I bet. I looked at them and was like "Holy jesus"

[Logo-Mechanix]

Housing is very expensive here in Jersey also. It just went through the roof in the past 5 years or so. When My wife and I were house hunting about 7 years ago we set a limit of around 150, today you can't buy a dog house for 150 and the value of our home has doubled. I can't belive the price that houses in our neighborhood are selling for now but the only way you can come out ahead is to move to the sticks or out of state, waaaay out of state.

[The_Black_Knight]

can't belive the price that houses in our neighborhood are selling for now but the only way you can come out ahead is to move to the sticks or out of state, waaaay out of state.Which, considering how crowded and overdeveloped most of New Jersey is becoming, isn't entirely a bad thing. When I look around at all the Wal-Marts, Targets, and housing developments that are going up, I don't want to live here anymore.

Honestly, who needs to live within 10 minutes of TWO Wal-Marts? Or within 15 minutes of THREE Wal-Marts and a Target? It's freakin' ridiculous.

I need to finish my M.F.A., then get a job at some small college or university out in the middle of NOWHERE (or at least somewhere where I can get a halfway decent yard without signing off my firstborn child).

[Bob]

Housing prices, more than anything, depicts the relative cost of living. And the great turnaround on the prices has just begun. A lot of people are gonna get a solid dose of reality very soon. Think of those poor realtors, people!

"My income's fallen and I can't get up!"

[Logo-Mechanix]

It's so true, unfortunately my wife is Jersey through and through, the only way she would consider even moving to PA is if it was like Jersey there. Me I would move to the middle of nowhere and hunt and fish for the rest of my life. According to my wife Target is just an overpriced Walmart. I here ya about the Yard though, my lot is about 50 x 150.

[EC]

I also think the computer learning curve has kept a whole generation from easily adapting into this field. To ask a typical 40 year old if they use a computer on a daily basis, I think its hit or miss. Skew down and ask someone 20 or 30, and the numbers go up. I honestly think the people involved in design have to have at least some interest in computers outside of design. If you're not interested in computing, how likely will a person seek a job that requires using a computer most of the time?

Any other theories?

OMG are you kidding? lol 40 is not *old*, it's really somewhere in the middle of a person's career. If a 40 year old doesn't have computer skills, they're not working in a professional capacity in ANY industry. It's really been the way of the world for what, 15 years now? Those that didn't grow up with this technology caught up.

40 year olds today have a comfort level with computers, I've not met one that doesn't. Even my mother who is in her late 50s knows more about computers than I do.

[EC]

Housing prices, more than anything, depicts the relative cost of living. And the great turnaround on the prices has just begun. A lot of people are gonna get a solid dose of reality very soon. Think of those poor realtors, people!

"My income's fallen and I can't get up!"

There are more real estate agents in California than houses sold. :eek:

[Bob]

>>40 year olds today have a comfort level with computers, I've not met one that doesn't.<<

Absolutely agree. Not only that, many 40 and plus year olds 'survived' a lot of the early platform stuff, like the birth of Windows (not for the squeamish) and may even remember DOS and such. It's that low-level understanding of computers that I think, give most of us forty-somethins' a technical edge. But, it's hard to beat popular mythology. And it even gets down to the level of who is going to receive technical training on company time, or not. It's been my experience that once you're past the big 4-0, few companies are willing to invest anymore in your training.

But sticks in my craw even more is when staff is sent out to some multi-day, multi-thousand workshops and come back with WRONG technical knowledge, which I often correct. That's usually when I discover that the teacher was some 'kid' in their twenties. Ah well... live n' learn.

[The_Black_Knight]

Housing prices, more than anything, depicts the relative cost of living. And the great turnaround on the prices has just begun. A lot of people are gonna get a solid dose of reality very soon. Think of those poor realtors, people!

"My income's fallen and I can't get up!"They have been saying that will happen in New Jersey for the last 20 years, and it hasn't happened yet. Annual home price inflation is still in the double digits in a lot of the state. Even if the home market "crashes," it will still only reduce the rate of increase, not reduce the actual cost of homes.

People keep moving here, which means there's more demand for houses. They can only build so many houses (and believe me, they're jamming them in wherever they can), so people are competing to buy from a limited number of houses.

Limited supply + increased demand = expensive houses.

Young people are leaving the state because they can't afford to buy homes here, but they just keep getting replaced by more people after they leave.

And no one is putting up starter homes. They're all those tacky McMansions.

[activeseven]

Amen to that

[reuber1]

Man, New Jersey members comin' out of the woodwork...we gotta close that place down. :P

[mojoprime]

it's wild that this is a topic because i've been thinking a lot about it lately as well. i'm 37 and still really excited about the industry. i've been a professional print designer for basically my entire adult life, it seems like, started at the ground floor and worked my way up and then moved into management and then moved out again a few years later because i missed the creative.

but i know very little about web design. i mean, i understand the difference between web vs. print but i don't have the mechanical skills yet to do it. it seems a little daunting, frankly, with all the languages that seem to be required. it excites me and makes me a little nervous at the same time.

i'd love to go and teach some day, but there are a lot of things i'd love to go and do, just as well. i actually found myself thinking about a total career change, but as you get a little older (not that 37 is a dinosaur or anything) things like mortgages, retirement savings and so on start to creep in, and it gets scary to think of putting it all aside and starting over.

i wouldn't call it a mid-life crisis because it's not mid-life anymore. i find myself giggling at the thought of that, but then like others have said, i remember paste-up (ugh, the waxers and making corrections with e's, s's and such on the fingers of one hand and an xacto knife in the other) and unscrewing and changing the discs on the varityper machine just to change a font. i wouldn't quite say i'm at a crossroads but rather that i stopped for a minute and came up for a breath of fresh air.

sometimes i think i shouldn't have left the newspaper business. i was good there, but i'm better as a designer where i'm at. so i'm still learning and that's what i think makes the field of design so exciting. i'll get the web skills, no doubt, it's just a matter of time. hell, i'd love to go back to school; what about the online design schools? worth it? a waste?

i know i just need to get off my arse and do it, but lugging a portfolio around campus and hitting those saturday marathon studio classes just doesn't seem to have the allure it used to.

i dunno. sorry this is such a random post. like i said, i'm fascinated to read everyone else's posts on the subject. nice to know that other folks have been down the path before and done really well for themselves...

[Logo-Mechanix]

Man, New Jersey members comin' out of the woodwork...we gotta close that place down. :P

I noticed that too, kinda weird.

[Six]

More sage advice from "OF"....

Learn the web and how to design for it and market using it. It is an entirely different world from traditional print or TV design, as we are discovering here at SPAR, which has its roots deep in traditional print design. By that I mean in more ways than just the medium. Content takes priority over visuals, and that is hard to take for a designer. I am not suggesting that graphics aren't important, but unlike print or TV you have to first attract the reader to the message. Think about that. The customer isn't sitting there watching the tube, waiting for your commercial, or reading a mag and coming up on your ad. He has to find you! Flash and pretty often don't not make a good web site, at least not a successful web site. Doesn't matter how cool it looks, if no one finds it or finds the competition first, well it is a waste.

Understanding search engine optomization (SEO) and search engine marketing (SEM) will be part of the successful designer's job skills.

Here is a hint - In this game the one with the most skills wins.

We all need to learn it because it will dominate advertising. I am 62 and trying to learn and understand it better. I have to. My clients demand it!

Six

[mojoprime]

good advice. i'll remember it.

[PrintDriver]

Six, I'm not convinced of the Jack-of-all-trades idea.
I'm sure in your company you have people devoted to web design rather than print design, right? You have to learn it to be the boss but I'd bet you have others who do the nitty gritty programming part.

I'd far rather invest in someone who knows a skillset thoroughly than in someone who knows a little bit of everything but not enough of everything. I think that is part of what's ruining the GD industry. Over extension and relying on wysiwyg programming. Not only in web but in print too. Just because you can make a pretty picture, doesn't mean it's gonna work.

A company that doesn't keep up with technology is going to flounder but to suggest that an individual who learns all skills in the design arena is going to be the winner is going to kill himself trying. Most of the designers I work with have a very specific skill set (large format/showbiz), are at the top of their game, don't know a lot about web design (but know when to hire a pro when they need one) and they all make a very decent living.

So I'm not sure the one with the most skills wins. The ones with the best skills will.

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

Hey all -

Been busy working, writing and traveling. Haven't popped in to check out the forum for a few days. I've been designing professionally for 30 years now and I just turned 50 this past May.

Most of the designers I know who are 40 and older are not working within the traditional confines of a 'real' job. A lot of that has to do with just not wanting to play "the game" any longer. As I often say "It's not that I don't play well with others; I just want to choose where, when and with whom I play."

I still have a great deal of passion for the work today - but I did hit a period of 'burnout" about a decade ago. At that point I'd been designing for almost 20 years and taking on every project that was coming my way. Some just bored the hell out of me and could have been "designed" by a trained chimpanzee. I was really frustrated with design as a profession. One day my sister asked me "Why aren't you doing what you enjoy the most?" I looked at her with a big "huh?" on my face. She responded with "Logo design." It was a major "DUH!" moment. I redirected my energy into primarily doing identity design and had new enthusiasm for my career.

I seriously doubt I will ever retire - but will certainly take advantage of the opportunity to pick and choose the projects I work on and the people with whom I play.

- J.

[Six]

Printdriver,

I don't disagree with you. You make good points. For some, being very specialized is probably best. It will limit their options, and that may be "no problem" in their market or for them personally. My point was more directed to the idea of advancement to a position of more responsibility, which usually means more pay. That requires more skills than just graphic design and often in various areas of design and management.

Larger companies will have specialized people working for them, but large companies are fairly rare, at least in this market. Most have only one designer or at best several. We have two. That means those few usually must have a broader range of skills to be an asset to their employer. My two are very talented print and package designers, which is where most of our business came from until recently, but a significant portion of our work today has shifted to web site design. That means my guys must at least understand the process to design for it, or I have to go outside to buy that design skill as well as the plumbing. In many cases that is the best approach anyway - go where the skills are. But what does that do for their value to me, when suddenly we wake up one morning and find half of our business is web focused. That hasn't happened here yet but has elsewhere.

If you want to be a print-only or web-only or package-only GD the rest of your life, I say more power to you. Be as good as you can possibly be and as valuable to your employer or yourself as possible. There is nothing wrong with that career track. I found it limiting and I would be making half what I am making now if I had followed it. That does not mean all will find a specialized GD track as financially limiting as you point out. Nor does it mean all should aspire to own or manage an agency either.

In a smaller market or a very competitive one, staying focused on a specialized skill set COULD inhibit financial growth. My warning is that the business is in a flux and changing rapidly. Failure to adjust COULD mean you have trouble finding work or making a satisfactory wage. There are always exceptions and choices. Just be sure you walk into them with eyes wide open.

I will amend my statement to yours - "The one with the best skills wins." The idea being the "skills" must accommodate the marketplace.

Six

[PrintDriver]

Yup, skills must accommodate the marketplace is right.

As I keep saying, I'm in a weird little corner of this industry. The career path for a designer here can be weird as well. A few of the designers I allude to have indeed gone on beyond actual design to also produce, direct or project manage. A specialty may have specialty avenues for advancement that transcend graphic design but never quite leave it behind.

[Six]

Yup, skills must accommodate the marketplace is right.
.... A specialty may have specialty avenues for advancement that transcend graphic design but never quite leave it behind.

Well said! If we keep this in mind we are less likely to be blindsided by change. That is the crux of my caution.

Six

[max_nhk]

I'm basically a print designer, was mid way to acquiring web design, and has taken efforts to hands on photography. I'm also planning to learn 3D as well.

It started of as a practical purpose, being capable in multiple skills (web & print esp) makes job hunting much more easier. However, I realised most firms seldom hire a designer to perform dual field operations. But my quest to explore and learn didn't stop there.

I believe it is not necessary and would be pretty tough to master multiple fields. As it is common nowadays for project to come in a campaign form, where multimedia and print co-exists. It becomes important for the Art Director or the person overseeing the campaign to have a decent knowledge of each field. Jack of all trade, master of one/two.

Being just a print/web expert might limit the career's advancement. That's how I imagined it would be for myself. Of course, elements like character and responsibility also play a part.


More importantly, I find that enganging in design projects of different fields can help in creativity as you'll learn to see things in different perspective and create different graphics style.

I once worked with a 3D expert. Never had problems with un-avaliable object images then. Infact I get the freedom to choose any angle of a rendered object. It became the main reason for wanting to learn 3D.

[max_nhk]

I seriously doubt I will ever retire - but will certainly take advantage of the opportunity to pick and choose the projects I work on and the people with whom I play.

That's my dream too, and I think it's everybody's dream as well.

[The_Black_Knight]

Man, New Jersey members comin' out of the woodwork...we gotta close that place down. :PWatch what you say about New Jerseyans. We know a guy...

[max_nhk]

More sage advice from "OF"....

Learn the web and how to design for it and market using it. It is an entirely different world from traditional print or TV design, as we are discovering here at SPAR, which has its roots deep in traditional print design. By that I mean in more ways than just the medium. Content takes priority over visuals, and that is hard to take for a designer. I am not suggesting that graphics aren't important, but unlike print or TV you have to first attract the reader to the message. Think about that. The customer isn't sitting there watching the tube, waiting for your commercial, or reading a mag and coming up on your ad. He has to find you! Flash and pretty often don't not make a good web site, at least not a successful web site. Doesn't matter how cool it looks, if no one finds it or finds the competition first, well it is a waste.

Understanding search engine optomization (SEO) and search engine marketing (SEM) will be part of the successful designer's job skills.

Here is a hint - In this game the one with the most skills wins.

We all need to learn it because it will dominate advertising. I am 62 and trying to learn and understand it better. I have to. My clients demand it!

Six

Basically web is so different from print both in technical sense and marketing usage that I felt the comparision unfair.

Web can never replace print advertising. Plenty of reason but I'll try to explain a few.

Although newpapers has reported a drop in advertising worldwide, people will always prefer to read from papers than the screen as it's less stressful to the eyes. Also, no matter how big everybody's screen is, there'll never be such a thing as a 'Full Screen Advertisement'.

I could be wrong though, who knows if some freak came up with a paper monitor tommorrow?

[Six]

Basically web is so different from print both in technical sense and marketing usage that I felt the comparision unfair.

Web can never replace print advertising. Plenty of reason but I'll try to explain a few.

Although newpapers has reported a drop in advertising worldwide, people will always prefer to read from papers than the screen as it's less stressful to the eyes. Also, no matter how big everybody's screen is, there'll never be such a thing as a 'Full Screen Advertisement'.

I could be wrong though, who knows if some freak came up with a paper monitor tommorrow?

Print may never go away in our lifetime, but web WILL dominate it. It is crushing the newspapers, but frankly much of that is because of biased reporting as well as a shift toward other sources for information.

Like you, I dislike reading a monitor and often print something out to read it. Besides, what we dislike today we adjust to tomorrow. You won't stop "progress" by rejecting it.

I do not have the gift or prophecy, but I do know a major shift is in progress right now, and it will have a significant impact on our business. I just don't know exactly what tomorrow will look like....

Six

[max_nhk]

If it's just about newspapers and informational print design, I would have agreed with you. However, print also consist of large format, pops, packaging, IDs and advertising. Unless technology comes up with a way to replace all these digitally without increasing cost, web will always be constrained to the size of the monitor.

Nobody can read from the monitor for long as compared to print. The only way to adjust to "progress" is for evolution to change our eyes to be able to withstand the direct lights from the monitor.

I stressed again that these two aren't meant to be compared. While web has the advantage of sound and interaction, print has the effects of finishing and feel. They're not meant to compete, but to compliment.

[Six]

If it's just about newspapers and informational print design, I would have agreed with you. However, print also consist of large format, pops, packaging, IDs and advertising. Unless technology comes up with a way to replace all these digitally without increasing cost, web will always be constrained to the size of the monitor.

Nobody can read from the monitor for long as compared to print. The only way to adjust to "progress" is for evolution to change our eyes to be able to withstand the direct lights from the monitor.

I stressed again that these two aren't meant to be compared. While web has the advantage of sound and interaction, print has the effects of finishing and feel. They're not meant to compete, but to compliment.

It isn't just about a medium shift, and maybe I have not been making that clear. I apologize. It is bigger than that. My agency has experienced a business shift because of the web. Clients are going direct now for things they came to us for before, because they have access to the tools and sources they never had before.

How many of you have used an online design service like Logoworks? That is a good example. Many of our small budget clients ARE using them, so we started doing it also, because we could not compete cost-wise. We not only lost the business but lost control of the design process and were stuck dealing with a design product we would never even have presented. Granted, the designs may not be all that good, in fact some are awful, but some are very good; the quality largely depends on the input to the designer (but isn't that always the case). They have become a inexpensive source for ideas, which my art directors refine into a marketable product that meets a client's low budget. We keep the business AND the design control.

More and more design will be available on the web from very cheap sources, making competition by the rest of us difficult. Is that product inferior? Many times, yes, but not always. In my thirty+ years in the business I have seen a general steady decline of design quality. There are still great designs out there - and great designers, often better than when I started, but what the client will accept (and often demands and has delivered to him) often isn't as high as when I first got into the business. Typography is a perfect example. One reason is the access they have to the tools (computers, desktop publishing, and the internet) and the way they insert themselves into the process as "experts". (Gee, I hope that didn't come out wrong!)

Maybe I am on a jaded end of the market, but that has been my experience.

Six

[max_nhk]

No worries Six, it's a good exchange of info.

Imho, no matter how easy it becomes technically, it's still a challenge to achieve good standard in design. Every designers know how tough and time consuming it is to come up with good stuff.

Thus the best way to avoid the struggle with cheap competitions is to stop being cheap. Develop high standards and eventually the right clients will pay the right amount.

[activeseven]

I could be wrong though, who knows if some freak came up with a paper monitor tommorrow?

Not tomorrow, but yesterday. "E-Paper" is already out there and they are now just trying to do it in color....and video. Google will prolly give you all the info you want if anyone cares to research it. Here are a few links I quickly gathered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1530678.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1292852.stm
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69839-0.html


I find this conversation about current technologies very interesting, all parties have excellent points and I feel I have learned a lot simply reading these posts. I wonder, if during this time of choosing which (already available) skills has anyone given thought to preparing for future skills that will be needed?

This epaper, and perhaps Microsofts universal file format that will directly compete against Adobe PDF and Photoshop are things on the horizon....

[Six]

This is the kind of change I am talking about. This article is in the context of the advertising agency business, but many of us make a living as designers there. I believe the principles and issues seen here have application for the rest of us as well.

http://www.heraldbusinessjournal.com/archive/oct06/fritsch-oct06.htm

Six

[Ahriman]

At this rate, my life span will be over pretty damn soon. I left the office last night around 3:00 a.m. (last week we had a Midnight session, then a 2:00 a.m., etc.)

I had a meeting at 9:00 a.m. today and the day is still going strong...


:(

[reuber1]

Jesus. 8 hours between shifts, if not a bit more of a buffer to cover reasonable driving time, should be mandatory. Not just for sleep, but for health concerns as well.

[PersonasBinar]

Has NO ONE seen Logan's Run? Did anyone get that reference? Sheez!

Almost All my college professors were either Designers or retired designers. They were all in their 30's - 40's (or older).

I totally get your Logan's Run Ref....great flick ,....hey I'm 40. :D
But I'm doing more workflow and database design than anything these days.

[Bob]

This is the kind of change I am talking about. This article is in the context of the advertising agency business, but many of us make a living as designers there. I believe the principles and issues seen here have application for the rest of us as well.

http://www.heraldbusinessjournal.com/archive/oct06/fritsch-oct06.htm

Six

Six, thanks for sharing that one. Nice summary and I would say a potentially optimistic note for the future of graphic design. Potentially.

The problem of developing new 'compensation methods' kinda makes me gulp. It's just that the industry does not have a terrific track record for working it's way out of financial restructuring without whamming creative staff.

But overall, I see the emphasis on making planning a more active component of the design as a critical opportunity for designers to become much more involved with defining and working with clearer objectives and cross-discipline team-building.

Kinda makes me wish I wish younger... and naiver, I suppose.

[Six]

This is not a "THE END IS NEAR!" scenario. The rules are changing and those who can adapt will prosper, but those who do not will struggle.

Define "adapt"? Well, that will be different for each of us and our particular job area. We as designers need to be aware of the possible changes and be prepared to adjust and prosper.

As for "compensation changes" that is more directed to how the agency is compensated. What is happening is the agency compensation model isn't working anymore. Many believe it was the wrong model to begin with, but that is another discussion. Back in the "golden age" for agencies we made a good bit of our profit from commissions on media placements. Agencies and media were down right cozy, with media depending on agencies to sell for them. That is going away, and I am told the large agencies have abandoned it a long time ago (though my little agency is still hanging on to it). The reason is media now approaches the advertiser direct and offers to them the same discounted price formerly reserved for the agency, so now the agency can't collect a commission on the sale. When possible, in its place is a fee structure. Instead of charging a commission on the media placement a fee is charged for the media plan and managing the buy. The cost of the media is passed through to the client at net.

The same is happening with print. Printers are setting up their own inhouse design groups and subsidizing them with the printing side of the business. I have clients tell me all the time they get the designs for "free" from these printers, whereas they have to pay me. GULP!

So agencies are now passing printing through at net like media and trying to make the difference in fees. Problem is the agency is accepting a responsibility to manage the print quality and the AR/AP associated with the buy - FOR FREE!

Someone has suggested the agency needs to change its financial model to more resemble that of an architect firm. Architects don't build buildings, they design them. The new model says, do the creative and marketing and turn everything over to the client for execution. That makes them responsible for all the issues associated with execution that they are not willing to pay for and want control of anyway. This is fragmenting the business into specialties, consisting of design/creativity focused agencies, media buyers, and printers/print brokers. The client seems to feel he is getting a better deal this way. I am not so sure of that in many cases, but "it is what it is" and we need to figure out a way to deal with it.

I guess for designers that means lots of opportunities working for inhouse design groups at printers, but be aware it will be demanding work, requiring speed and usually allowing for little of the kind of creativity we enjoy. It will put food on the table.

Let me stress that I am talking about one side of the design business and there are many other areas we as designers find ourselves working in. Frankly, I am not sure what is happening elsewhere; my little world is traditional advertising, package design, and package goods promotions in an agency environment, so that is the context in which my comments need to be considered.

Six

[wienerdog]

This is happening at even the lowest level. I got my first job as a part-time designer for a large office supply retailer that offers copying services and was paid $9/hour. The work we'd do was often pretty awful, but I saw it as a good opportunity to learn software and get paid for it (which I did, thanks to the full time designer there). Obviously the customers were very low-budget, small restaurants needing menus, someone needing an invite for a family party, etc., so it didn't matter to them I was only a year into my associate of arts degree. :)

But the rate they'd charge for all design services was based on a $55/hour model. They even offered a resume package. If there's anything I'd want a professional reviewing, it would be my resume, and not some 22 year-old taking classes at the local community college.

The irony is if I didn't care about losing my job (as lousy as it was), I should have offered my services at half-price to customers who couldn't afford the rates we charged. But I don't think I'd take many of those people as clients today. It wouldn't be worth the $ to do a client's lousy layouts.