InDesign CS2 multi-document file setup for multi-page brochure for newbie

[migo]

I hope I am able to articulate my question, which I can not seem to find the answer in my library or internet.



I am designing a company multi-page brochure and I am a novice to InDesign CS2. I have mastered the basics of setting up a document. However I have access to a beautiful document file(s) of another brochure that has raised an important question.



All brochures have a FRONT & BACK COVER, as well as an inside section, much like a book. The professionally done file I have has a separate InDesign document file (idd) for the cover and another for the inside. A TOP national professional (written several books) told me that he has three files when he makes a brochure.



Below this is his response, but I am too embarrassed to say I do not understand “why” this is necessary.



(Pro’s response) I usually create three files of a book.



The cover, front, back and inside, outside.
The front matter, numbered with roman numerals The text, Arabic
numbered text




I need to and my goal is to be able to have a final product that goes to a printer/service bureau.



My questions are:

WHY is it necessary to have separate files?
Can I do entire brochure all in one file?
I do not understand #2 & #3 of Pro’s response.


Man if I can get this answered I am off to the races! I have subscribed to no less than two online tutorials, neither of which go into this subject.



Last I am in management, and I do this for relaxation (grin). Thank you kindly in advance.

[rickself]

Hi Migo. Welcome to the forum.
I would have answered a half hour ago, but I had to wait to stop laughing from the "relaxation" line. OMG!

This "pro" you speak of may have his reason for laying his file out this way. But I can't figure out why. Indy has built in options to name any number of pages in any format you want.

How many pages we talking about here? Build the book(let) from front to back. Make sure when you start out, set your bleed (if any) ahead of time and then it's set for the whole doc and you can layout accordingly.

Now get on with and relax! Any more questions, I'll be around off and on and there will be others around to help out today too.

[jimking]

"The cover, front, back and inside, outside."
What he's is refering to here is covers 1,2,3,4. Cover 1 is the front cover, cover 2 is the left inside cover, cover 3 is the right inside cover and cover 4 is the back cover.

"The front matter, numbered with roman numerals The text, Arabic"
Is just that, the beginngs of the book--i, ii,iii,iv etc..

"numbered text"
Is the balance of the book. You can do the same but you don't have to as Rick states. Some designers prefer to create seperate cover and text files but really don't have to in most cases. I have seen files seperated this way with perfect bound books which is derived from predesktop days.

[migo]

Thank you for the welcome! 12 pages plus cover front, back and inside. I figure someone would a perverse sense of humor might get a kick out of that. This particular Pro has written multiple books and is well known. In any case he has same file logic as the other pro we hired to do our first brochure; I just do not understand it and want seeing how they both do that.

So your simple point is I could do a rich cover and all inside pages; all in one document?

Is it appropriate to use an exported PDF for the printer to use in his printing, assuming all resolutions, fonts etc are correct?

[rickself]

Don't assume anything in printing.
Every printer can be a little different in what they want. Get into a good inter-active relationship with your printer.

Personally, I prefer native files and if the client knows how to create a pdf, send it along. I'll use the pdf first if it's clean, but I HAVE to have the native file and all the links incase something (and it does) goes amiss.

Make sure and work in CMYK for your color cover, if that's what you mean by "rich". RGB does not work in offset printing.

[jimking]

Create a new document in Indy--12pg+4pg cover= 16 page document. Covers 1 and 2 will be pages 1 and 2 in your document. Covers 3 and 4 will be pages 15 and 16. Your 12 page text will be pages 3-14.

[migo]

rickself and jimking thank you both. Your answers explain why I was unable to find their logic anywhere in any books, or internet. I feel much more comfortable going forward. I invested in Lynda and VTC internet training, books etc., none of these as near as I can tell explain this.

I see many printers accepting different formats for printing. I like the PDF approach and hope that is the best way. Is it or is it some sort of individual preference thing?

Thanks again gentlemen.

[rickself]

It's both. Some RIP's can handle pdf's, some older systems can't. Jim and I both use an imposition program called Preps, that deals well with pdf's. It takes your book and puts all the pages in their appropriate place in the layout.

Best Bet... PLEASE CALL THE PRINTER.

[migo]

Yes I am being very careful about bleed, and CMYK and 300dpi resolution. I even bought two new monitors to go with this insane computer.

Unsolicted Personal history: I was an art major years ago. I got screwed out of that due to my dear parent’s car accident and came home being the good son. Now I am able to do a little of this design work and it is fun for me.
By native format, do you mean have all my images in one folder, Indy files in another, fonts in another and send all that together to printer, while insuring all links are valid?

[migo]

"Frisbeetarianism" now I understand. I start to post something; the answer comes up before I even ask.

You two must be clairvoyant. Though I had read somewhere in one of my “You poor slob” books, that good designer can read minds….. you two are obviously there on that score!

Where do I find/buy the Prep program? I do like a good laugh by the way.

[jimking]

You got it. You can also send with those files a "printready" pdf and let the printer know that you are also providing what you may think is printready. The printer can troubleshoot the pdf to determine if it's valid and will make a determination to use the pdf or your native files. Most common errors in provided pdfs are unembidded fonts, fonts that are in RGB instead of 100% black, lorez images, RGB images and a number of other errors that are difficult to correct in a pdf format. That is why you should insist on supplying the printer with your native files also.

[jimking]

"Frisbeetarianism" now I understand. I start to post something; the answer comes up before I even ask.

You two must be clairvoyant. Though I had read somewhere in one of my “You poor slob” books, that good designer can read minds….. you two are obviously there on that score!

Where do I find/buy the Prep program? I do like a good laugh by the way.






I'm a printer not a designer. Both Rick and I are electronic imaging technicians. We must know several graphic applications in order to perform our job. Preps is a expensive imposition program that printers use to layout jobs. It'll cost you about $5000. US dollars. If you want to learn it, you'll need to get a job in prepress which I would think twice about!! :p

[Alan G]

You're definitely getting the idea. All of the suggestions here are good. In some circumstances, a particular printer might ask for the cover in a separate file because it will print in a different run (cover stock rather than text), but that would be the exception.
One strong recommendation: output your ID file to PDF X/1a. This is very safe, will alert you if anything's going to be a problem, and almost all printers understand and can work with it. (I'd go so far as to say that if your printer doesn't, you should find another printer.)
If your printer asks for the native indd file, use File>Package to create your final output. That way everything is in one folder that you can burn to a CD or FTP to the printer's website.
Here's a link to a web page that will give you excellent definitions and descriptions of terms like "front matter": http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/learn_book_manuscript.aspx
Knowing the terminology is half the battle.

[jimking]

My experience has been with pdf supplied only jobs has been that most of the pdfs are incorrect and the time restaints are very narrow. I'm always thinking in terms of speed because this is how printers make their money. Even if the pdf is correct often times the updated corrections can be so extensive that programs such as Pitstop or Acrobat Pro can't make them which slows the process. I've even had good pdfs go sour because the corrected pdfs sent by the client were incorrect causing more delay. With the native files at hand, speed is assured. About 40% of all recieved files for print are pdfs only at my plant.

[rickself]

I'm a printer not a designer. Both Rick and I are electronic imaging technicians. We must know several graphic applications in order to perform our job. Preps is a expensive imposition program that printers use to layout jobs. It'll cost you about $5000. US dollars. If you want to learn it, you'll need to get a job in prepress which I would think twice about!! :pLet's see:
Freehand, Pagemaker, Illustrator, Indesign, Photoshop, Corel, Publisher, Word, Acrobat, Preps, Harlequin, Windows. I have to know all of these and how they work so that when a file comes in to our shop, I can deal with it. We don't turn many jobs away. Preps is not a file a person would need unless you're in a printshop.

Learning this stuff is good... wanting to get into prepress is probably the most stressful job I can think of. Everything in the shop goes thru prepress before anything happens. The owner, the salesmen, the pressmen, the bindery people, and the customer all wait for the job to get thru prepress. And if the designer doesn't get his job done right...well, you can image what happens.

[Alan G]

From the design end, jimking, I've had printers who keeled over and died when they got indd files, though I'll always send them if the printer can handle them. For me the nightmare scenario is a printer who is Quark-only, Mac-only, and doesn't understand PDF. Fortunately this is very rare now.
Mainly, I try to maintain a good close dialog with my contact at the print house so we each know exactly what the other needs. This works well. I like to give the prepress folks problem-free output so they can do their own jobs and don't have to do mine. Much learning goes in both directions, and it's all in the direction of happy clients.

[migo]

I'm a printer not a designer. Both Rick and I are electronic imaging technicians. We must know several graphic applications in order to perform our job. Preps is a expensive imposition program that printers use to layout jobs. It'll cost you about $5000. US dollars. If you want to learn it, you'll need to get a job in prepress which I would think twice about!! :p

Well a couple things. First I don’t need to spend $5,000 for an imposition program! Secondly, I see that I have missed a lot seeing how I was only on page one of a two page forum! Ouch.

Now that you all now know I have no “limits” (please see signature for clarity), I wonder if it is possible for you to recommend some reasonably priced internet printers (2-3) who I could deal with given all that you now know about my situation?

I have (3) 12 year olds I am taking bowling here in a few minutes. I have learned more on this forum than anywhere else on this subject thanks to all of you good folks! Thanks.

[jimking]

From the design end, jimking, I've had printers who keeled over and died when they got indd files, though I'll always send them if the printer can handle them. For me the nightmare scenario is a printer who is Quark-only, Mac-only, and doesn't understand PDF. Fortunately this is very rare now.
Mainly, I try to maintain a good close dialog with my contact at the print house so we each know exactly what the other needs. This works well. I like to give the prepress folks problem-free output so they can do their own jobs and don't have to do mine. Much learning goes in both directions, and it's all in the direction of happy clients.
Alan, send those files my way! :)

[Alan G]

Sounds like a good deal to me! :-) (In that general vein, I've said for many years that if I ever realize a whole week went by and I didn't learn anything, I'll go check into a retirement home.)

[jimking]

Believe or not I'm tired of learning. Prepress in the last 5 years is in a constant state of flux. Constant upgrades or the need for upgrades, both hardware and software. I'm tired of it to be honest. It's been 33 years for me so I'm kind of grouchy. :)

[migo]

I have run into a new challenge. A vendor sent me his brochure file so that I may use portions of it in my new brochure. It fits beautifully within my brochure or as I did a copy and paste. However I am trying to position white text over some of the photographs and graphics. For some reason after make the text box and have the correct color for the text it will not let me see the text when I place it over the graphics or photos? can put this same text in many other areas of the document but not overly used photos and graphics. Hope you can help.

[urstwile]

Are you sure you're positioning the type in front of the graphics, and not behind? I usually create a separate, upper layer for all text.

Edit: Also, make sure there's no text wrap set on the graphics you're positioning the text on top of.

[migo]

I told it to ignore the text wrap and it worked! Thanks a lot now and go to sleep. By the way I see that you are in San Diego. I am in South Carolina. A went to college at Mesa in 1972. I have old friends still there, one works at the Tribune, another was an art teacher there.

[budafist]

Other people's text wraps often have us stumped!

[migo]

I went to your website. Pretty cool. I like the stick men. Too funny. What time is it where you're at? I have a friend who flew in from New Zealand Sunday. I'm going to meet him Wednesday night for dinner in Houston. He is nonstop entertainment.

[urstwile]

I told it to ignore the text wrap and it worked! Thanks a lot now and go to sleep. By the way I see that you are in San Diego. I am in South Carolina. A went to college at Mesa in 1972. I have old friends still there, one works at the Tribune, another was an art teacher there.
Go to sleep? :confused: It's only 6:00 p.m. here. :D

[migo]

I showed my 12-year-old son your website. I know he loves that sort of graphics. He took me to another site, believe it's called stick man. Anyway he wants to learn how to do things like this take me. Can you steer me to some program or method that he might can handle?

[migo]

Guys, I am being as careful as I can and paying attention to any pro tips. In any case, one of the printer services I am looking to require PDF.

When I export to PDF and click on all "Printer Marks" and "Use Document bleed Settings" I get the attached result of partial bleed over from one page to another.

It just looks weird. I know that when the two actual pages get printed they will be on same piece of paper, front and back and facing.

My concern is when I export the entire document for the printer am I doing something wrong OR is this the way it should be?

Next question: I have all my photos and graphics as CMYK. I am using a Pantone color for the font. Does that make any difference in sending to printer or will that be considered a spot color causing other problems for me?

I know I am not the pinnacle of clarity but hope you can help me with my questions.

Thanks in advance, migo