Working for friends or co-workers

[gr7ap2hi0cs]

Ugh. Okay i'm a single mom...and i am OUT of money right now, however i have 3 people that want logos as side work and i know they have no money to pay me for them so i'd have to spend my nights at home with my son working for nothing. its hard. i used to not care, but now it's my job :confused: thats the last thing i want to do when i get home.

I know we can't talk about pricing on here...:cool: but i really need to know whats reasonable in this case. I don't know how much is too much to ask cause I KNOW they can't afford what i'd usually charge. even half of my normal price would be way too much. its hard for me to charge people i know but in my case i kinda have to!? It's a waste of time for me really. as mean as that is to say, i only have so many hours a week to spend with my son.

What do you guys do?

[urstwile]

Can you charge them in trade? As a single mom, I'm sure there are lots of things you could get from them in trade which might be easier for them to swallow, and would benefit you as well. I work for trade with some of my friends. For example, a friend of mine had me do a brochure for her, for a beautician school class and I traded her for haircuts and color and pedicures. Just an example. Is anything like that a possibility?

If they're your friends, they'll understand you can't just do this stuff with no recompense whatsoever.

[ecsyle]

You need to get the graphic designers handbook asap. I don't do design freelance, just web development, so I really don't know how to handle branding and identity on the side. That book, however, will offer plenty of insight into it.

[Neuro]

Personally I think it's important we make it clear to our friends and family that this isn't a "hobby" for us. If you have better things to do with your time and they aren't willing to make it worth your time then I would tell them NO.

[ecsyle]

Personally I think it's important we make it clear to our friends and family that this isn't a "hobby" for us. If you have better things to do with your time and they aren't willing to make it worth your time then I would tell them NO.
100% agreed on this.

[budafist]

It's soooo hard! I'm hopeless at charging friends.

I've been paid in sandwhiches before. They were damn good sandwhiches, but not nearly enough $$

[gr7ap2hi0cs]

one of them for gift baskets (which i could care less), the other one is for a marketing agency...which is sketchy to me as she is a co-worker and we work at a marketing agency!?!?!?! I'm gonna ask her about that...why is she doing this!?

The problem is that they ARE willing to pay me. They have both sent me the info but we havne't discussed how much they are paying me yet. I know they won't be able to pay me enough. They will probably die at what i'd tell them i'd normally charge. I just don't know whats reasonable to ask.

I am totally down for trade though...depends on what it is i guess, just not in this case.

[gr7ap2hi0cs]

and i guess i should mention...these are both co-workers...not exactly true friends.

[urstwile]

and i guess i should mention...these are both co-workers...not exactly true friends.
That being the case, you should charge them your standard rate. Or work it out partly in trade and partly for money.

You can explain it to them in exactly the same way you posted it here in the post that started this thread. Sorry, but you sound like a busy woman who wants to spend time with her child, not working for chump change or for free, you deserve to be paid for what you do, regardless of who it is who asks. I suggested the trade thing because I thought it might be actual friends who were asking you, and I'd do the same for any people who were my friends. But then again, none of my friends would ever ask me to work for free, unless I myself volunteered to do so, and then that's all on me, not them.

[greyghost]

and i guess i should mention...these are both co-workers...not exactly true friends.


Listen honey, I just recently BLEW UP at a "friend" while I was doing her one of these favors.

Charge your normal rate. They HAVE to understand this is not a hobby, you are a professional in your field and they need to respect that.

In the case of my friend? I did a logo and business cards for her. Guess how I was paid? With $7 worth of "gourmet" cheese. Hahaha.

Then she wanted an ad recently. I designed her a really beautiful ad, sent it to her, and she was rude as hell about what she didn't like. So I bit back. I said look, this is my Friday night, I have been working 20 hour days for weeks on end now, and the least you could do since I am doing you a FAVOR is be polite. At least find something nice to say."

So then she says "well what if I were to sit next to you while you design it, and we do it together?"

Let me ask you: in WHAT OTHER PROFESSION is such a thing considered OK? I would NEVER sit next to a mortgage officer and asked him what happens if he clicks here or there, or in her case, a calligrapher, I wouldn't dream of sitting there telling her to loop those P's a little higher, or turn her nib to a different angle... she'd kill me in five minutes. Yet we are expected to be OK with that.

Since then? I don't do work for "friends" anymore. I'll send them to someone else that I hope they will respect.

[PrintDriver]

Gift baskets make great Christmas gifts.

[jlknauff]

You are not a charity. Charge friends just as you would anyone else, and require contracts. I've personally been screwed more than once by not following advice. Think about it - if you were a home builder, how would you feel about someone asking you to come over and build them a house for free since they don't have much money?

As for prices - I've seen people charge as little as as $50 for logo (you get what you pay for) but I've also seen people charge $70,000 for a logo (which is probably unwarrented). My point is that any info that anyone can give you based on you question is probably going to be irrelevant since the price will depend on your experience & skills. You need to sit down and figure out what you're brining to the table and base your prices on that.

Remember - you are running a business, treat it as such.

[budafist]

So then she says "well what if I were to sit next to you while you design it, and we do it together?"

Let me ask you: in WHAT OTHER PROFESSION is such a thing considered OK? I would NEVER sit next to a mortgage officer and asked him what happens if he clicks here or there, or in her case, a calligrapher, I wouldn't dream of sitting there telling her to loop those P's a little higher, or turn her nib to a different angle... she'd kill me in five minutes. Yet we are expected to be OK with that.

While I dispise people sitting next to me while I'm working, I'd never thought about it like this before. It's a great example.

[greyghost]

While I dispise people sitting next to me while I'm working, I'd never thought about it like this before. It's a great example.


Thanks! I thought of this after I bit her head off. Would have been a great example. Oh well. I'll use it next time.

[Jackimalyn]

id charge them my regular rate. if they cant afford it, thats too bad. Im not a jerk, but this is my job.

Maybe they could babysit? or clean ur place? sigh over their 401k? i dont know. Id just charge them- as hard as that is.

[morea]

sadly, I find that so-called "friends" (and coworkers, too) are the first ones to screw you on a job. Be EXTRA sure to use a contract in those instances!

[gr7ap2hi0cs]

I have been charging $X if i'm allowed to say that. I've been in the industry 8 years and have been working as a director for 2.

i was gonna ask 50% that but even my mom choked when i said that. My mom suggested 25%. but 25% to me...well ummm yeah i guess i could but they are gonna get what they pay for!

I'm wishy washy now cause honestly i did do a logo for a gift basket company in the past and she was supposed to send me a whole box of stuff and....i never got anything.

christmas presents is a great idea though! :0)

[greyghost]

It's not ok to say how much, unfortunately.

But I do not think your price is out of line. I know people who charge 1/10 of that, and it is part of the reason why so much of our work gets so undervalued, someone is always willing to do the work for so cheap...

Just tell them how much the logo would cost. See what they say. Give them a contract to sign (I like the ASID one). The more of us that stick to some professional standards, the better off we will all be.

[morea]

Just tell them how much the logo would cost. See what they say. Give them a contract to sign (I like the ASID one). The more of us that stick to some professional standards, the better off we will all be.

well said!

sorry, I had to edit out the dollar figures in your post, gr7ap2hi0cs, but I put in the percentages so it still makes sense.

[gr7ap2hi0cs]

That's absolutly fine Morea!

[Broacher]

'Working for friends' is an oxymoron phrase, in the context of professional design.

Or... it will be.

[SharkFinStudios]

Make sure you get the contracts signed whether it's some cash or gift baskets as compensation. That way if they don't pay you have a signed contract.

I did a job freelance THROUGH my old job and still made my employer AND the actual client sign a contract. Long story, but it got me what I wanted, what they wanted and it was only because I had it in writing.

Think of it this way, which is more important... spending time with your son or spending thankless hours on the computer to not get paid for a job? When I told my mom how much I charge she gasped, too... but that's what our moms do. I ended up charging my client (who was a friend through work) the same as I would any other person. If they can't pay then tough. You do get what you pay for.

[Soccer37]

You could ask them what they have to spend on the project and then go from there. Are you printing these for them too?? Break it down for them so they can see what you are asking them to pay for. For example if they give you an amount they are willing to spend. Subtract how much it would cost to print, then divide the rest by how much you are willing to have as your hourly wage. This way you can figure out how many hours you are willing to spend on it, and let them know what they will be getting for that amount. Does this make sense? You shouldn't work for free, but you don't have to make the product beautiful if they aren't willing to pay for it. Tell them you can spend x amount of time working on it, then they can decide if they are willing to pay for more or if they can deal with what they have. ALWAYS use a contract. There are several places you can find this (web and books), but if you don't eventually you will regret it.
I told a friends mom I would do the logo for a very low price, thinking it would be easy and quick. Well, 30 revisions later I was regretting my price and not having used a contract, had no grounds to charge more, on the same token, I had no binding contract I had to deliver either. At that point I needed any money I could get so they finally got their logo and I got the money, but learned a good lesson on using contracts to limit revisions and adding charges if neccessary.
Good luck!

PS, why can't we discuss pricing on the business section?? It seems like that would be a large portion of the business sections topics wouldnt it????

[greyghost]

PS, why can't we discuss pricing on the business section?? It seems like that would be a large portion of the business sections topics wouldnt it????


Because it's considered unethical and a conspiracy for charging too much or something. I think in many ways we NEED to be able to discuss pricing.

Oh well - that's what PM is for.

[LeftBrain Artist]

I've done things for friends in the past for nothing, while they sit next to me and "help". What's really funny is watching them get really frustrated when some of their requests are almost instantaneously fulfilled, yet others seem to take forever. I also like to take extraordinarily long pauses where I stare blankly at the screen and mumble to myself incoherently - of course followed by a flurry of keyboard and mouse activity. Ooo. Another good one is to frequently interrupt progress on their project to explain what you are doing in great detail, letting them know that they really should learn this stuff so they don't have to rely on you. Start rambling on about gamuts and resolution and such. Eventually they'll get the hint unless they're unusually dense. I actually think its good for some people to sit down and actually see what you are doing, see the skill and patience required to make their crazy dreams a reality.

A trade is a good idea, but it should be for their time. Need stuff that requires 8 hours of my time? Sure, but you have to help me do yard work for 8 hours on a Saturday. Or if you're a mechanic - I need to replace the head gasket, the sway bars and the ball joints on my truck, can you take care of that? I'll pay for the parts as long as it doesn't go over $50.

If they're a salesperson, here's my business card and some advertising materials. Go call on a hundred businesses for me and see what shakes loose. No comission.

[mastera]

Make sure you get the contracts signed

How do u go about this when the client is somewhere 100 million miles away ? I could write up a contract and send it to them via email, but do they need to sign it with ink to be a legal binding contractual agreement or what ??

[Soccer37]

A fax machine works well in these instances. You can fax it to them they can sign it and mail it to you. I am not too sure about if they could sign it and fax it back some one may know.

[budafist]

Fax sign off is absoulutely fine.

[budafist]

Another good one is to frequently interrupt progress on their project to explain what you are doing in great detail, letting them know that they really should learn this stuff so they don't have to rely on you. Start rambling on about gamuts and resolution and such. Eventually they'll get the hint unless they're unusually dense. I actually think its good for some people to sit down and actually see what you are doing, see the skill and patience required to make their crazy dreams a reality.

I couldn't agree with you more! :D

[SharkFinStudios]

How do u go about this when the client is somewhere 100 million miles away ? I could write up a contract and send it to them via email, but do they need to sign it with ink to be a legal binding contractual agreement or what ??

Satellite Delivery? :) Fax sign off does work or you can email them a PDF file and have them print it and sign it and then mail it back. Always keep a hard copy of it. They should have one and so should you.

[Loopy Lisa]

I've done small side projects for friends for free (gasp!) but my whole thing is at the time, I wanted to build my portfolio. Plus I was too chicken shit to ask for payment because of the simple fact they were my friends.

I still have a hard time charging a fee, no matter how small it is, because I feel obligated...I know that is normal to most but something I have to grow a thicker skin with...I dunno that's my rant no matter how insignificant it was.

[budafist]

Artists are just too generous...

Or is it because we enjoy our work, we reason that it is ok to do work for free?

[greyghost]

Some of us do not see it as work, since it is art.

[cgmpowers]

Working for friends and family is why I switched specifically from networking and pc consulting to graphic design. Its why I moved from a PC to a Mac.

I got very tired of working a full day at a job to spend my nights or weekends fixing my friends and family's computers. To me this was work, not a 'hobby'.

Graphic design is no different. One of relatives is a lawyer and I see her take on friends and family all the time and she does a half-assed job at their stuff. Why? Because she's not getting paid. Why put the effort into something that you're not getting paid for. I don't support that, I don't go to her but if I did then I'd expect a bill.

Those who do stuff for free generally don't get into it as they would if there was some monitary reward at the end.

That being said, we all DO it from time to time. It really is a personal decision. However it is stated in the practices and pricing book that equal trade is permitted in leu of monitary payment. So if these are people who can lets say, clean your house or babysit your kids or cut your grass then you're at least getting something in return.

But in principal, its just not wise to put a shingle on your door saying "will work for free/or near free".

Oh and one more thing. From the starting gate you must carry yourself as a professional. Its an uphill battle sometimes, especially with friends and family, who may consider this a hobby at times. The arts as a career is a tough job because its easy to be a critic.

I even have to correct my wife when she says, and she did this just last night, say that I am going off to work to play. Its not play, its work. These comments demean what I do for a living. Even on the love of my life, the person who knows how hard it was for me to get through school and get a job in this field still sometimes thinks I'm "playing" or have it easy.

Personally I think it's important we make it clear to our friends and family that this isn't a "hobby" for us. If you have better things to do with your time and they aren't willing to make it worth your time then I would tell them NO.

[Loopy Lisa]

Even on the love of my life, the person who knows how hard it was for me to get through school and get a job in this field still sometimes thinks I'm "playing" or have it easy.

What if you DIDN'T go to school? I only got through my 1st year of advertising art before I had to drop out cause I was pregnant and never got back to school for graphic design. Since then, I've had several jobs where I've learned alot it just wasn't done academically...

I deal with alot of ppl passing judgment on me (no one here, it's elsewhere) because I did not go through 3 years of "rigourous training" to be a certified (I say that lightly) graphic designer.

I think that if you are a quick learner that it shoudln't matter where you get your terachings from because you can pick stuff up along the way.

[budafist]

Of course you can pick up stuff along the way - but its a whole lot harder to find a job in the first place willing to train you.

If you're an employer with someone that has training vs someone that can learn, but has none, it's not hard to choose is it?

[Loopy Lisa]

Ya but I've also heard of situations where someone could have all the academic training in the world and still not have the industry experience...and it's hard to come by finding someone who's got the whole gamut: school AND real world.

I may be lacking in one and have some in the other but I know I love what I do and it's too bad more companies didn't at least take us on even as volunteers so we can gain that exposure. BOO.

[greyghost]

Lisa, my degree is not in graphic design.

The only people who care what my degree is in, are other graphic designers.

I have been doing this for 8 years. Three and a half years were spent in corporations, one a major newspaper. THOSE artists cared that I didn't have a degree, even though my work was better than some of theirs at the beginning, by the end it was better than most.

Personally, I think people with a degree have a tendency to lean on that degree and not push themselves further. Many (not all) think they know everything. Those of us without that degree know we do not, and we push hard to catch up, and that momentum often keeps going.

I'm self employed. The most questioning I ever get about my academic background is "where did you go to college?" The only thing my clients care about is what the quality of my work is, my expertise, and how I take care of them.

Professionalism goes a long way. But understand: this is a profession where, like it or not, we are not GRANTED respect. We have to EARN it, and it's hard sometimes. And having to earn that respect often translates into our pay scale. Sucks? Yes.

[Blend Graphic Design]

One thing... i have been in the field for 4 years and know that experience is what paying clients want to see. if you have an established company/business you probably don’t need small jobs like this, but when i started i did. what ever came at me, regardless of what they could pay me, i did it.

So... if you are a rookie, i say suck it up and do it and build your portfolio (an identity for a medium size business will pay your rent for a month easy) because good experience is hard to find.

[Loopy Lisa]

:-)