What if the client asks for something you don't agree with?

[Calligirl]

As someone who's trying to prepare for the market, I have a question about a hypothetical situation. Actually, right now, it's not hypothetical but I'm not committed to doing anything. Since that's clear as mud, I'll try to elaborate.

A new company is seeking a freelancer to design some T-shirts for their company. It's a religious company and the designs they already have, I don't particularly agree with. An example might be fires of hell/saved by Christ theme.

My question to the pros here, how do you get past the personal view to design for a client? If you're a pro-lifer and Planned Parenthood calls, how do you respond?

If I wanted to be a starving artist, I wouldn't be concerned about it but if someone's paying your salary, saying I dunwanna doesn't cut it.

[Danger_Mouse]

It's a question you have to answer for yourself really. If you don't feel comfortable doing it then don't. But it cuts a paycheck right? You can still produce an attractive design for them for what they want, you might just not put in portfolio, but you've paid your rent.

You just have to decide for yourself. Would you feel better designing a logo for a porn site? a flower shop? To me its all a paycheque, but you have to decide what your ethical boundries of what you will and won't do.
Everyone is different though. I wouldn't feel guilty either way.

[Drazan]

Yep, same here.

You are protected by rights of law to not do something that is against your beliefs. However, the same theory applies. How much is it against your beliefs or against what you think "should" be done.

If you go into a job that has a customer which in your example is Planned Parenthood. PP does much good for women other than the abortion issue. You can still be a Pro-life supporter, but that doesn't mean that you can't do a flier for PP that supports good healthcare. If you do run across something that absolutely is not something that you want to do and you are working for a company take it up with your project leader/ HR person/ Boss in a clear and professional manor. Don't get all upset about it and throw the "I'm so NOT going to do this!" confrontational speach. Unless you are the only designer at the place more than likely they will find another person to do the project, or deny the project themselves due to it's nature.

You'll find in the real field of graphic design there will be a lot of what I call "process design". This is something that is entirely non-personal, little or no creativity, and things that make the payroll, but not necessarily something that's going to be promoted as "we did this for this client" on the website or promo materials. Every place has these "less-than-stellar" jobs and it's really a judgement call whether or not to do them.

=)
Jade

[Calligirl]

Thanks a bunch for the replies. Like I said, this is just something offered to the college students where I'm at and it's not something I have to do at this point. I just wanted to know how situations like that are handled in the real world.

I did note that one word 'professionalism'. That's what I'm striving for!

[EC]

Your clients are a hugely important part of your referral base. If you work for an organization you don't believe in, or people you don't like, it can lead to another job just like it. And another one. Just something to think about.

[budafist]

If you don't want to do it, just let them know it is against company policy. Sit down and think hard about what you will and will not do.

Personally I would do this work, but I wouldn't do anything that was hateful.

[Riya]

If you feel that you can do justice to the design and give the client's thier money's worth, then go for it. If, however, you feel so strongly about the issue that you would/could not design effectivly, then you'd best leave it alone. Becoming emotionally invovled in a design is one sure way to cause yourself stress.

[Las Vegas Signs]

If it is something that goes against your beliefs then don't do it. If it is your business you have the right to refuse any work that you do not want.


If you don't want to offend them then just tell them that you are swamped with work right now and do not have the time to take on another project.

[3howards]

A large part of our work is for monetary purposes. But, I tell you what, I wouldn't do it. I don't want money from someone or some business that I can't endorse or support on an intellectual level, my talents and abilities apply.

[morea]

hey! Where have YOU been, stranger? :D

Calligirl, that's the beauty of working for yourself... if it makes you uncomfortable, you can say no. Tactfully, of course. I have found that most people are very understanding if you're up front about it.

[D-Frag]

There is no way I could take a freelance job with something im not comfortable with, organized religion be it one of those things im definetly not comfortable doing. There is plenty of work out there to be selective, especially in a big city like the nix. Besides, I just couldn't get good design out of something I can't stand behind. my 2 cents

[Alan G]

Agreed, Morea. In this business you're inevitably going to be offered jobs that create a conflict of conscience. Compromising your integrity will reduce your belief in yourself, and that will inexorably affect your work, no matter how you try to justify it. It only goes downhill from there. In any creative field your greatest asset is your own belief in yourself. When you lose that, you've lost everything. Really.

[budafist]

I don't agree.

They're not asking you to be part of their religion, just to do a job for them. What would happen if everyone across all industries refused to do work for anyone that wasn't in their own religion/belief circle?

I see what you are getting at - don't compromise yourself, but you can work with someone in a different religion without being converted yourself. Just be careful you aren't bordering on basic human rights and prejudice.

[urstwile]

Then again, Buda, as communications professionals, shouldn't a person have a choice as to what it is they choose to communicate? I'm quite sure there are plenty of other designers who could do the job with more conviction.

[Alan G]

I understand, Buda, but it's not a question of religion. It's a question of ethics. The right to communicate or not communicate is fundamental, and I think an inner sense of what is upright and honest is likewise universal. I can't do good work for a client whose agenda I can't support, and I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did less than my professional best for any client.

There are three different religions in my client base, as it happens. They are all people of good will, regardless of differences of belief. It's just that I won't accept work that forwards something destructive. What constitutes "destructive" is a matter of individual conscience. (I consider bad taste destructive, for example; some people don't.:D)

The important thing, IMHO, is to have a conscience, and to listen to it.

[logomantis]

This whole thread is comical to me. It's funny that graphic designers are having all the moral problems that coincide with their JOB. I have not always been a graphic designer, meaning, I have had jobs in quite a few different fields, and to the best of my recolection, I think there has always been an aspect of my job that I a) did not agree with or b) did not want to do it. Example: If you happen to be an ER doctor and say you are a vegetarian and are totally against eating meat, someone comes in the ER who needs their stomach pumped because they got food poisoning from under cooked steak (my favorite), are you the vegetarian doctor not going to help him because he is sick from eating meat? Well, no, of course you are going to help them, because it's your freak'n job. Remember, there is a thick black line between the words personal and professional. And ontop of that, Graphic Designers are part of the Art world, and I believe artists are suppose to be the most open minded people around. The more you let your personal beliefs and problems mix with your professional position, the more you are to limiting yourself to success.

[3howards]

This whole thread is comical to me. It's funny that graphic designers are having all the moral problems that coincide with their JOB. I have not always been a graphic designer, meaning, I have had jobs in quite a few different fields, and to the best of my recolection, I think there has always been an aspect of my job that I a) did not agree with or b) did not want to do it. Example: If you happen to be an ER doctor and say you are a vegetarian and are totally against eating meat, someone comes in the ER who needs their stomach pumped because they got food poisoning from under cooked steak (my favorite), are you the vegetarian doctor not going to help him because he is sick from eating meat? Well, no, of course you are going to help them, because it's your freak'n job. Remember, there is a thick black line between the words personal and professional. And ontop of that, Graphic Designers are part of the Art world, and I believe artists are suppose to be the most open minded people around. The more you let your personal beliefs and problems mix with your professional position, the more you are to limiting yourself to success.

Although I understand what you are saying, I disagree wholeheartedly. First off, graphic design is not my JOB, it is my career and part of who I am and what I'm passionate about. There's a difference between what I do (for me) and delivering pizzas. My career is representative of my values as it pertains to work ethic and craftsmanship. Once I enter an area where there is psychological conflict, my effectiveness is reduced.

And, not all would agree that graphic designers belong in the art arena. At least for me, graphic design can never obtain the same level as fine art because it is commercial art after all. The goal is to communicate a message with an end in mind. With fine art, such as sculpture or painting, there is no definitive message. The viewer takes it as they see and understand it.

This subject is comical to those who are graphic designers for merely a paycheck. Those of us that do it because it is a part of who we are and what we're passionate about, it's no joke. It's is nice though to get paid for doing something we love. :)

[Alan G]

Logomantis, I'd have to differ. In the first place, to take a contemporary example, I would never design anything that promoted racial or religious hatred, like the stuff that was rampant in Germany a couple of years ago against the Vietnamese immigrants, or a white supremacist agenda. Professionalism includes ethics, after all.

As for open-mindedness -- why? "Broad-minded" I could agree with. But there are limits.

Howard, your first paragraph says it well. As for fine art vs. commercial art, that's a whole discussion in its own right, but it is well to bear in mind that Michelangelo and Da Vinci and all their contemporaries were "commercial artists": they made what the client asked for. Dickens was criticised was publishing his stories in magazine serial form, instead of as "real" books. And many posters and other commercial design pieces from the last two centuries now command very high prices at auction.

[budafist]

Of course a designer shouldn't work on things that are hateful. It's not only against one's morals/beliefs, but it's illegal.

You can get into a lot of touble here if you refuse work based on someone's religion - I don't know if it's the same elsewhere. Sure you can say that you are too busy for their job, but what if the keep asking you or try and book in a time for when you a free?

It's a commercial job we are doing here. We're providing a service.

[urstwile]

I do think that the original poster's question has been strayed from. My impression was that they were asking whether they should take a freelance job being offered by a religious company.

A new company is seeking a freelancer to design some T-shirts for their company. It's a religious company and the designs they already have, I don't particularly agree with. An example might be fires of hell/saved by Christ theme.

In this case, it's going to be her choice to work for this company as a freelancer. She's not already working for them. It seems to me that if the focus of what she'd be designing for made her uncomfortable, she'd be better off not taking the freelance position.

If she were already working for a company that decided to take a religious client on, that would be a different can of worms.

[Ned]

I don't have this problem... I'm easy. :D

(Dammit... I'm running out of booze already...)

[Calligirl]

Thank you, Urstwile. That's pretty much what I wanted to know. I didn't mean to start a debate.

[urstwile]

Just seemed like it was wondering away from the point of your original question Calligirl. I don't think anyone's bothered by the debate aspect, it's always an interesting question.

[Drorain]

politely and respectfully decline, perhaps offer a refferal. A client will understand if you don't believe in there cause, or that you really aren't geared towards that industry. There is no reason to comprimise yourself and your moral/ethical beliefs. Some of the work I have in my portfolio includes non-profit/religious work simply because it's a cause I support. Had planned parenthood approached me or PETA, I'd simply relate that it's not something I could devote myself to whole heartedly.

Not a hard question really, but it is a very good one

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

My question to the pros here, how do you get past the personal view to design for a client? If you're a pro-lifer and Planned Parenthood calls, how do you respond?

I've never been able to get past my personal beliefs to work with such possible clients. I usually politely excuse myself from the situation by telling the individual/company I don't think I am the right designer for the job and I will find some alternatives for them. Besides, for the past 25+ years I have been very good about positioning work in my portfolio, and marketing materials, to make it VERY clear where I stand on social, religious and political issues.

- J.

[undressedmonster]

And ontop of that, Graphic Designers are part of the Art world.

I don't consider myself part of the art world. I'm not an 'artist.'

[BrentonMailman]

Personally, I think i would take just about any job, no matter where i stood on their issue, other than something like "lets beat up dogs" or something thats completely terrible.

As far as religion goes, I do not believe in god, I am completely non-religious. But I don't discriminate towards anyone who does, and i feel, as an interpreter of someones message in a visual manner, like graphic designers are, it is our job to take their message and deliver it.

Maybe its the theatre in my blood, being able to play a part, but I think if I understood their message whether it be "god is good" or anything else, i could do it.

I realize that others dont agree with me here, but I could, quite easily design for them, on this issue, completely leaving my personal beliefs out of things.

I feel that to be completely certain about your values, you should be comfortable and knowledgeable enough about both sides of the debate to form your opinion.

[budafist]

Just seemed like it was wondering away from the point of your original question Calligirl. I don't think anyone's bothered by the debate aspect, it's always an interesting question.

*nods

It was straying away from the topic, but it was taking an interesting turn. If we're not going to discuss these things on here, who will we discuss it with?

[logomantis]

Brenton

Your exactly what I mean. That is the ideal philosophy for a professional graphic designer.

And to the person who says your not an artist, but a graphic designer, that's a bunch of junk. I believe I said part of the Art World, never said Fine Artist, and Art is created for an interpretaion in mind. Most fine artists paint with a theme in mind, or they are comissioned to do something that someone else wants communicated. Very few artists create without some sort of interpretation or goal in mind. Back to the other topic: Yes, graphic design is a career, job was used for broad terms. Let me ask this. If you are picky about what kind of client you design for and you put your feeling and beliefs into what you create, isn't that what an Artist does?

But my main point of responding to this thread was to state that 99% of the time, the most successful graphic designers are usually the ones who can come into any project, study what it is that the client is trying to communicate and visually make it happen for them. The more limitations you put on yourself, I believe the smaller of a pool of creativity you have to swim in. But besides murder and terrorism, I'll never let my PERSONAL religious or non-religious
beliefs get in the way of my PROFESSIONAL career.

[Calligirl]

"...the most successful graphic designers are usually the ones who can come into any project, study what it is that the client is trying to communicate and visually make it happen for them. The more limitations you put on yourself, I believe the smaller of a pool of creativity you have to swim in. But besides murder and terrorism, I'll never let my PERSONAL religious or non-religious
beliefs get in the way of my PROFESSIONAL career."


So, Logomantis, based on your post above, to be a successful graphic designer, when the guy comes to me and wants a new ad campaign for his cigarettes, I should figure out the best way to promote the joys of smoking in order to please the client and "make it happen for them" despite the fact that my mother died from lung cancer directly caused from smoking cigarettes because that is a PERSONAL belief (and medical opinion of the doctor) and as such, does not belong in my PROFESSIONAL career? After all, it's not murder or terrorism...

And I do want to be professional, that's why I asked the question in the first place...:)

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

"...the most successful graphic designers are usually the ones who can come into any project, study what it is that the client is trying to communicate and visually make it happen for them. The more limitations you put on yourself, I believe the smaller of a pool of creativity you have to swim in. But besides murder and terrorism, I'll never let my PERSONAL religious or non-religious
beliefs get in the way of my PROFESSIONAL career."


So, Logomantis, based on your post above, to be a successful graphic designer, when the guy comes to me and wants a new ad campaign for his cigarettes, I should figure out the best way to promote the joys of smoking in order to please the client and "make it happen for them" despite the fact that my mother died from lung cancer directly caused from smoking cigarettes because that is a PERSONAL belief (and medical opinion of the doctor) and as such, does not belong in my PROFESSIONAL career? After all, it's not murder or terrorism...

And I do want to be professional, that's why I asked the question in the first place...:)

Calligirl -

I think you bring up the issue I addressed in my earlier post. I'm not going to compromise my personal belief system to do design work for organizations, causes and businesses which go against my beliefs. I don't feel that is reflects poorly on my professionalism at all. In fact, if anything, I feel I am being MORE professional in being upfront and turning down such work.

The issue goes both ways. I've had potential clients decide not to work with me after seeing my extended portfolio which includes projects for Planned Parenthood, the Democratic party, gay/lesbian organizations and other such clients. That's fine with me - ideologically the possible client and I may not a good fit. I do end up getting many more clients specifically because those projects are in my portfolio.

- J.

[logomantis]

I understand morals. And they are always stronger to stand by when you are well established and not hungry. But when you are starting out, it's not so easy to turn down.
If a client offers a big job with a big check, and you know that that check can get that root canal done because you don't have dental insurance, and you've lost 20 lbs. because you curbed your eating because it hurts to much to eat 2) your financially strapped, raising children on your own, and knowing that money can do good for your children, your telling me your turning it down because your morals. Those are some hellacious morals. Hey son, no dinner tonight because of my morals.
Being able to afford to be choosy and selective is a great sign of success, and we all strive for it, but I would suggest really questioning what is for the better of the people and things that your directly responsible for until that success comes. Because frankly the Landlord, Govt. Loans, and your bill collectors and dentist can care less about your personal morals. My grandmother died from an illness directly related cigarettes as well, but I think she would be highly mad at me if I turned down a job for a cigarette company if she knew the end result (paycheck) was going to help out her great grandchildren in a positive way and relieve any financial hardship.

[logomantis]

I also want to note that I'm not trying to be fecicious (If I spelled that correctly). I do have lines that I will draw, I just don't want to see a field that I love so much turn into a bunch of snob-nosed primadonna's.

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

Calligirl, that's the beauty of working for yourself... if it makes you uncomfortable, you can say no. Tactfully, of course. I have found that most people are very understanding if you're up front about it.

M. -

I do know quite a few designers who have been able to handle it tactfully in staff position situations as well - as in "For personal reasons I really feel uncomfortable working on the advertising/design account for your anti-gay political client and would like to be excused from the team on that particular project." With the volatile political climate (especially here in Oregon) on issues such as same-sex marriage, abortion, stem-cell research, civil unions, and other social topics this has come up for many designers I know - and the vast majority of designers have not been treated poorly due to speaking out on the issues. You can't expect all of your personal beliefs/convictions/politics to mess with others - but you do not need to compromise yourself either.

On many issues in which I feel strongly I will make those with whom I agree aware of my feelings - and find myself with a new client. By putting myself out there I do draw many like-minded clients my way. Having a piece of my work appear in the book The Design of Dissent (http://astore.amazon.com/jefffisherlog-20/detail/1592531172/104-1628624-6081536) has resulted in new clients from around the country. If an independent designer doesn't want to take on certain types of clients they should not include those businesses/organizations in the target audience of their marketing efforts.

- J.

[budafist]

I guess in the end, there is no shortage of designers willing to do what you don't want to do, so no big problem.

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

I guess in the end, there is no shortage of designers willing to do what you don't want to do, so no big problem.

The "problem" was in the questioning of the professionalism of a designer not wanting to do such work. I don't think turning down clients due to having issues with the client's product/business reflects poorly on a designer's professionalism at all. It only establishes the boundaries within which a designer is willing to work as a professional.

- J.

[LeftBrain Artist]

There's a phrase for this phenomenon, "conflict of interest". Supreme court justices bow out of many rulings all the time because of this. The only time this could become really problematic is if you're working for an employer who gives you the ultimatum "do this or hit the road", even after they've heard your reason for having a conflict of interest. At that point, what you have to decide is how important it really is to you to stick to your guns. Professional behavior does not require that you slit your own throat.

[Broacher]

Belief conflicts. Sounds like a trend.

What if I personally, and devoutly believe that I can only work for a project that pays me $10,000 an hour, must be unsupervised, and respects my right to develop my creative spirit even if it means abandoning the objectives of the project itself? Come on, come on... work with me!

See, my answer to the "What if the client" or "what if the boss" conflict question is simple: talk! If your beliefs are too strong to risk a healthy discussion on the perceived or real conflicts, maybe they're really too weak. If you have something to back up your position, present it. Bridge the gap. Compromise. If you can't.... pick a war, any war.

[skirklan]

Professionalism means not letting personal feelings interfere with the delivery of services. How far does this goes before you become the same as the pharmacist who won't fill a prescription for birth control because he's pro-life? Just curious.

[morea]

so, by that logic, should I get to work on the brochure the KKK wants me to layout for them?

[budafist]

No, because they are illegal...aren't they?

As long as they aren't illegal or on the verge of illegal, I would probably work for someone...

[skirklan]

so, by that logic, should I get to work on the brochure the KKK wants me to layout for them?

It depends–are you in the business of controlling other people's politics or in the business of providing design services? If you run an all-you-can-eat buffet, would you bar fat people from your restaurant? This thread reminds me of a topic on Design Observer where an awards ceremony was held at the White House and designers who didn't agree with George Bush declined their invitations. Does everything, even opportunities resulting from delivering professional services (I'm sorry, there will be no dental work for meat eaters) boil down to just another opportunity to express political disagreement?

Hmm. How different is this from the southern restaurant owner not serving blacks? And again, I'm just curious.

[morea]

How different is this from the southern restaurant owner not serving blacks?

are you suggesting that if a designer declines to produce hate propeganda would be comparable to racism?

The fact that someone chooses a career in graphic design does NOT obligate them to create something that they find morally reprehensible. Sometimes, you just have to say 'no' and bow out gracefully.

¢¢

[budafist]

If a designer declines to serve a Jew because the designer isn't Jew - is that racism?

[skirklan]

are you suggesting that if a designer declines to produce hate propeganda would be comparable to racism?

Every "ism" is based on making a judgement. Propaganda and hate are not synonymous. Somewhere in there, a judgement call was made between good and evil. Are we all qualified to judge one another prior to selling design services? Personal politics should be hashed out in a political venue, not a professional one. There's a time and a place for everything.

The fact that someone chooses a career in graphic design does NOT obligate them to create something that they find morally reprehensible. Sometimes, you just have to say 'no' and bow out gracefully.

I agree that being a designer doesn't automatically assign you doormat duties. But a professional in any field should be able to deliver professional services without making political or personal judgements. As an employee, you have absolutely no right to turn your employment into anything other than the job it is--it should never become a platform for the delivery of personal opinion or political expression. Of course, if you're freelancing, you can lash about spitting on whomever you choose. Then you only represent yourself and can take the deserved hard licks that result from judgemental behavior.

JMO.

[Calligirl]

I'm beginning to be really sorry I even asked this question. All I wanted to know was how to does a professional graphics person handle a request for something that is not within their particular comfort zone. I didn't expect for the subject to disintegrate into arguments about what constitutes professionalism, racism or any other political hot button ya'll want to throw in here.

The original proposal was for a T-shirt design contest for students to attempt for free if they so desired. I didn't care for the religious tone of the company so I didn't participate. It just made me wonder what happens in the real world of design.

I should have never brought it up.

[daSnarf]

I wouldnt consider this an argument, just a discussion amongst peers in the industry.

Different people will stand on different sides of the line, each explaining their belief. That is a GOOD thing IMO so dont be sorry you brought it up.

If you were expecting a simple yes/no where everyone would call out with one voice then the answer would have most likely already been known to you.

[skirklan]

I'm beginning to be really sorry I even asked this question. <snip> I should have never brought it up.

Hey, Morea and I are both CAT people--we have more in common than average. We're just bringing up both sides of an issue, which is a well rounded examination of a subject. Don't have regrets . . . or expectations; people are far too diverse to predict. Besides, most designers are notoriously THOROUGH and issues become more complex once making a living is involved.

[morea]

Personal politics should be hashed out in a political venue, not a professional one.... As an employee, you have absolutely no right to turn your employment into anything other than the job it is--it should never become a platform for the delivery of personal opinion or political expression.

I am not talking about someone refusing to do something just because they "don't like it" or don't want to do it.

Using myself as an example, I have had to work on ads that turned my stomach... I disagreed with the message, but since it fell under the responsibility of "my job", I did them. Not only that, but I did them to the best of my ability.

I personally would not turn work away because it is for someone with a different religion or political affiliation than I have chosen for myself. I try my darndest not to judge other people. That said, these sorts of things are not what I am talking about in this instance.

I am referring to the occasional rare thing that someone is disturbed enough by that they feel they CAN NOT work on it without compromising some part of themself. And in that case, it is not wrong for them to make their feelings known to their employer or their client, as the case may be.

Graphic design is a JOB. A career, if you prefer... but that is ALL that it is. Some things are more important - like being able to respect yourself for not betraying your deeply held principles, and having the ability to sleep at night.

----
Calligirl, please don't worry. It's interesting to see where people stand on issues like this. At the end of the day after people have made their points, we can agree to disagree - it doesn't mean that we disrespect one another.

Susan, I understand what you are saying too, but it is my opinion (and only that) that there are times when it is acceptable for even a service provider to say "no." (Granted, it should be a RESPECTFUL no, but a 'no' nonetheless.) As long as, in doing so, they do it courteously - maybe refer the client to another designer, or pass the particular project off to a coworker - there is really no harm done. In ethical issues like this, there is no clear right and wrong answer - only different shades of gray. Ultimately, it is up to any one of us to determine what we are willing - or NOT willing - to do in any given situation. And nobody should be made to feel bad about that decision.

[morea]

Hey, Morea and I are both CAT people--we have more in common than average. We're just bringing up both sides of an issue, which is a well rounded examination of a subject. Don't have regrets . . . or expectations; people are far too diverse to predict. Besides, most designers are notoriously THOROUGH and issues become more complex once making a living is involved.

lol, exactly. A little 'devil's advocate' on both sides, I think. It makes for an interesting discussion. ;)

[Ned]

The original proposal was for a T-shirt design contest for students to attempt for free if they so desired. I didn't care for the religious tone of the company so I didn't participate.

OMG, Calligirl... It's a good thing you didn't mention the contest in the original post, or you would've seen a whole 'nother fiery debate.

Go here: No-Spec.com (http://www.no-spec.com/) for further details...

[Satchel]

I think you bring up the issue I addressed in my earlier post. I'm not going to compromise my personal belief system to do design work for organizations, causes and businesses which go against my beliefs. I don't feel that is reflects poorly on my professionalism at all. In fact, if anything, I feel I am being MORE professional in being upfront and turning down such work.

I think this made the most sense out of everything I read in this thread... thanks for helping me kill half an hour on a friday afternoon!!

[Ned]

Just as an example... What does the general populace think about the people who advertise for the Tobacco companies, and pushes cigarette smoking on our ever-impressionable youth?

Sure, they may cry out against "the Tobacco Industry", and "the Tobacco Companies", etc., but what about the advertising agencies? Do you think that anyone would call an Ad Agency unprofessional for turning down a job advertising tobacco? The more successful ones usually do, leaving these jobs to the hungry wolves.

[LeftBrain Artist]

This aint too bad, we haven't even resorted to name calling yet.

Lets say, for example, I wanted you skirts to draw me up a flyer supporting taking away womens' suffrage. Ideally, I'd like to see some crazy broad drivin' a car while talkin' on a cell phone and paintin' her fingernails, and the car is headed for a cliff - the liscence plate says AMERICA - and the title says - "Them Crazy Broads - Don't Let 'Em Vote". I'll pay you triple time and give you a 100K bonus if the bill becomes a law.

I don't think anyone would question your professionalism if you turned that one down. I don't think anyone would question you if you told me to go F myself.

Of course questions of ethics aren't always that clear. In the matter of the Christian "praise Jesus or burn in hell" t-shirt - I personally would do it, mainly because those types of messages fall into the category of (literally) "preaching to the choir". I'd guess 99.99% of people wont change their mind regarding political/religious views. I'm not likely to see a T-Shirt like that and say to myself, "Whoa! Is my face red! I'd better get my behind into Church this Sunday and start praising Jesus ASAP! A good thing I saw that shirt, or I'd be spending all eternity frying like a sizzlean sausage next to Dahmer!" No, me and the other sinners that shirt is aimed at will see that shirt and think "that guy is a dink". If I get paid to make someone else look like a fool, so much the better.

If I thought the issue was really significant, like designing propaganda to ease the of transfer of power from our government to our new Chinese masters - or a menu for a new restaurant that serves human fetuses, I'd have to say no.

Last rational thought before the weekend:
Ethics are a roadblock to absolute professionalism. Allowing your personal beliefs to interfere with professional practices means you are human. Not allowing your beliefs to affect your professional life is the act of a souless machine, and groups you in the world's oldest profession.

Rabble rabble rabble.

[budafist]

Calligirl, don't be sorry, we're not really answering your question anymore, it's gone further and past your original question. Healthy debates are good in my opinion, as long as there isn't any personal attacks on people :)

[budafist]

Just as an example... What does the general populace think about the people who advertise for the Tobacco companies, and pushes cigarette smoking on our ever-impressionable youth?

Sure, they may cry out against "the Tobacco Industry", and "the Tobacco Companies", etc., but what about the advertising agencies? Do you think that anyone would call an Ad Agency unprofessional for turning down a job advertising tobacco? The more successful ones usually do, leaving these jobs to the hungry wolves.


With this example I wouldn't have a problem because Cigarette advertising is illegal here. Not entirely sure what it's like overseas though. I guess if a foreign company approached me asking for tobacco advertising work, I could decline using the reason that it is illegal in New Zealand.

[rainbow2bryte]

ha! Budafist, you seem very concerned about the law there! ;)

i break them daily here, but i live in the US, we got TONS to go around!

just an added comment about this whole thread, couldn't you look at commercial art/ graphic design as kind of, i dunno, 'sleazy' (not sure that's the best word) just in the sense of SELLING to some market on a pcyhological level? It's all kind of scammin' depending on your perspective.
we're going to persuade you one way or another w/ art.

tricky subject. good thread. :)

hope you got an answer, calligirl

[LeftBrain Artist]

couldn't you look at commercial art/ graphic design as kind of, i dunno, 'sleazy' (not sure that's the best word) just in the sense of SELLING to some market on a pcyhological level? It's all kind of scammin' depending on your perspective.

That's a good point, oftentimes we're attempting to make someone purchase something they otherwise wouldn't buy, or make them believe something they otherwise wouldn't agree with. And while we don't necessarily lie outright, we do use a number of psycological tools to influence others' thoughts - we make conscious efforts when designing to ensure the viewers attention is ensnared and directed to where we think it ought to be. You could claim that we are in fact "stealing" the attention of the public eye, and you could even go further and claim that we're denying them free will through subtle manipulation of their mind on a level that the general public is unaware of.

But if you make that claim, then dialogue itself is unethical, as every time you open your mouth and voice an opinion you are influencing another's thoughts.

Graphic design conducts a level of communication that for many people is transparent - but that doesn't necessarily mean it is sleazy, or is taking advantage of the people who are unaware of how it affects their thought processes - although it can be.

So, back to the original question of this thread - how do the professionals supress their ethics in order to work on a job that is contrary to their personal beliefs? Personally, I use the Yellowstone theory of ethics suppression. Lets say, O.J. Simpson asked me to design a cover for his new book. Now, if I listened to the guy on my shoulder, I'd tell O.J. to go climb a tree. But if the guy on my shoulder was waiting in line for the government cheese because I've been out of work for a while, I might implement the Yellowstone theory - "We're overdue for a supervolcanic eruption at Yellowstone, which could happen any day, really, resulting in worldwide death and destruction on an unprecedented scale sending the human race back to the stone age, if it survives at all. So what the hell does it matter if I do (insert unethical activity here) anyway?"

Have a nice day!

(Whistles the theme to the Andy Griffith show.)

[budafist]

Well, graphic design is definately in the realm of advertising. Advertising is the devil y'know...

As Bill Hicks once said: If any of you are in advertising or marketing...kill yourself.

[morea]

not to restart the debate, but I figured since this thread was related, I would post the link here.

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16452


also, here is an article by Neil Tortorella that you might find helpful:

The Fine Art of Saying No
http://www.creativelatitude.com/neils_newbies/neils_newbies_0806.html

[Calligirl]

Morea, are you a mind reader?

The thread having to do with the protests...did you already know about the protesters showing up here for the kids who died in the bus accident? Yeah, that's my town. I cried for hours, watching the news...

For those of you not aware, Huntsville had a school bus flip off the overpass onto the road below, killing four high school students on the way to tech school. Anyway, the protesters were really hateful, screaming at the families that it was their fault their kids died because they do nothing about the government and its conspiracy, etc. I was very proud of our local news media because all of them REFUSED to film the protest and very little mention if any was made in the paper about it.

Thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one that comes up with these questions!

[budafist]

Calli, I don't get why the protesters where prostesting for?

Anyway it's cool that the media didn't cover them. It's like a media protest against the protesters...nice...

[morea]

wow. That's so sad, Calligirl... I am sorry to hear it. What an odd coincidence, as I had not heard a thing about it.

You're definitely not the only one who asks questions like this. I think it's great that we can run these little issues through their paces and look at them from other points of view by discussing them with our peers. And that's one thing I love about this forum in particular... we can talk about controversial things (and even play 'devils advocate' a bit) but at the end of the day. everybody respects each other. :)

[urstwile]

I agree Morea.

Calli, just one thing troubles me about the protest thing you mentioned, which is if all the media refused to cover stuff that was distasteful to them, then that would entirely negate the notion of free speech. That line is too blurry as it is.

Now mind you, I find the motivations of the protesters disgusting, ill-timed and heartless, but sometimes it's important to know what's going on in the world, no matter how distasteful you might find it. It's not too big a stretch to imagine (as is already happening) the media not covering huge anti-war protests.

I think press coverage of stuff like this is a whole different can of worms than your originally posted question.

[budafist]

I watched an interview recently about this guy that has a protesting business. People pay his company for a crowd of protesters to appear at a specified location. The client gets to pick their picket signs and slogans that are shouted out or these can be created for them.

I'm all for free speech and right to protest, but protesting for money is something else entirely.

[urstwile]

Agreed, Buda, I wasn't really talking about that, as much as the slippery slope of deciding to cover some things, but not others. Many protests in the progressive movement unfortunately are not covered by the mainstream media, or are given such brief mention because Britney Spears and KFed are more important news, apparently.

[Calligirl]

No, don't get me wrong, protesters do have a right to stand outside and scream all they want and the press have a right to report it in the interest of keeping the public informed. I certainly don't want my information filtered for me.

However, in this case, this was the group that goes around the country protesting about homosexuality and stuff at all the military funerals and things like that. This bus accident was a local tragedy, had nothing whatsoever to do with these people who came from out of state. They did not know these children, had no connection with them at all but because this accident received nationwide coverage, they chose to come here and protest. These poor families did not need their daughters (all four were girls) used in such a way and I'm proud that the media did not play it up.

Sorry, didn't mean to send the thread in a new direction, just clarifying.

[mchilly]

Well if you don't like the idea and you don't feel doing it, so I think you should stick to your beliefs :-)