con artist?

[majpue]

I am just beginning, and realize I am doing it all wrong. I should have made a contract, should have gotten a deposit, etc...

I told the client I would be billing by the hour for a logo design, and gave him an estimate. Client requested a rough draft, and I provided several sketches based on his concept of "angel with wings around people." He said my drawings looked too religious and suggested instead "arms around two people." I produced several more rough sketches, based on new concept. Client said "I really appreciate your hard work and talent. I am going to have my partner do the logo, as she has the image I want."

I had sent him 25 rough sketches: variations on the theme, intended to zero in on an overall layout to be developed into a single logo graphic. I have not seen his final logo, but I have reason to believe my work contributed to its development.

When I told him I'd be sending a bill, he became angry - insisting that I promised free rough drafts: "I do not feel I need to pay for something I did not purchase!" I explained that I had made my hourly rates clear and that he must have misunderstood. He responded with vaguely threatening email and midnight phone calls. I sent him an invoice anyways.

Now he asks "What if I did decide to pay for drafts... do they become mine? And you will never use them again, since I paid for all of it?"

Good question! Maybe he plans to use my sketches after all, or already has. Should I let him off the hook and retain rights to my artwork?

_________________________
I don't care about the money - I just don't like being ripped off!

[PrintDriver]

Logos are generally bought lock, stock and copyright by the client. Designers don't normally retain copyright on a logo.

However, he is not buying a logo but more than 25 rough sketches. Depending on how different they are, do you want to give up that much potential? Or if they are all the same theme, give it up, chalk it up to experience, take the money and next time use a contract. Maybe it all depends on how many more midnight phone calls you want to get. :D

[BJMRGTIVR6]

take the money and run. if he chooses not to use a certain one or theme from the one, you can still use it and have another piece/logo with that design as long as he hasn't included it in the current logo.
He isn't really willing to pay and only said the last part to "get even" and say he retains all rights to them. Perhaps he might go as far as try to sue you if you include them on a portfolio site or something. Plus, as long as a new logo isn't sketched, I can't see it being the same thing anyway.

I think this will be the last time he is willing to pay for anything and better to get something than a continued headache. Just remember not to do any more business with him. or accept money upfront.

you could say he is ripping you off either way, by not paying or trying to claim all your sketches as his own and not letting you use them in any way in the future.

[cornfed]

You need to find out what it is he intends to do with the roughs. I never sell copyright to my designs unless they are paying out the wazoo for it. Maybe that's not standard practice, but it's my practice. You've been screwed up to this point. I think the best thing you can do is make sure that you proceed armed with a contract that clearly stipulates what he can and cannot do with your sketches. I think that would be considered selling him some form of usage rights. I think you could keep usage rights broad enough that he has freedom to use them to promote his business but not to sell copies on ebay!

It would suck to find your sketches serving as his best friends logo, although it seems feesible in this situation.

[panzer]

horrible measly man send him to Horace Wimp he'll sort him

or better yet Lilly Savage

[Jackimalyn]

use big scary words.

"As the situation stands, I hold all copyrights to the sketches. Per my hourly fee agreed upon at the beginning of this project, you are owed $___ to me. I retain copyrights on all sketches, as you will obtain copyrights to one agreed upon logo." blah blah blah. At least you learned something... contract!! good luck-

[mac.FINN]

He isn't paying you for the roughs, he's paying you for your time.

Would you normally sell your roughs to a client that carried through with a project? Let him know that the money he owes you is for your time, and that by abandoning the project he's given up all ownership of anywork you've done.

Plus I'd request to see the final logo and make sure he know that using your sketches won't be appreciated.

[mattbing]

If it was just a few hours that you worked on it, I'd say chalk it up to experience. If it's considerably more, I'd get the money you are owed. And if he does not agree with that, then threaten to take his bill to a collection agency.

If he wants to use the sketches, that is another issue althogether, and I would think would incure additional cost.

Graphic design is tough, because really your delivering something that is not physical... say such as a mechanic might be working on a car, and at the end if the client has a problem with the bill, the mechanic at least has the car, and doesn't have to give it to him until he's paid.

[daSnarf]

He isn't paying you for the roughs, he's paying you for your time.

Would you normally sell your roughs to a client that carried through with a project? Let him know that the money he owes you is for your time, and that by abandoning the project he's given up all ownership of anywork you've done.

Plus I'd request to see the final logo and make sure he know that using your sketches won't be appreciated.

Agree with that. If his new logo was partially based off of your work, it could be considered a copyright violation of your work as well.

[Jackimalyn]

He isn't paying you for the roughs, he's paying you for your time.

Would you normally sell your roughs to a client that carried through with a project? Let him know that the money he owes you is for your time, and that by abandoning the project he's given up all ownership of anywork you've done.

Plus I'd request to see the final logo and make sure he know that using your sketches won't be appreciated.

Definately mac, your first sentence is so important, and Id ask to see the final logo too. remind him you still own copyrights to your ideas.

[PrintDriver]

Without a contract it is VERY difficult to establish what he is paying for. Was he paying for time, or a logo, or a sketch of a logo?

Without a contract it is very difficult to establish other than hearsay that he abandoned the project.

Without a contract it is very difficult to establish whether he was paying for the full ownership of the logo for HIS company, including all sketches leading up to that point.

If you get my drift....

It's really really sad how many people come here for similar advice who have started up a business selling GD but have very little idea of how to actually run that business in a safe, sane, profitable manner.

[greyghost]

It's really really sad how many people come here for similar advice who have started up a business selling GD but have very little idea of how to actually run that business in a safe, sane, profitable manner.

I blame the schools.
What DO they teach in schools these days?

[majpue]

True, it's my fault for not having a contract: if he does pay, there will be the issue of what he is entitled to... I will inform him that the invoice is for my time only, and does not include any rights to use the artwork in any way.

My main intention behind the bill was to let him know that he is a loser. He can choose to pay me or not, I don't care as long as his finished logo does not reflect my contributions.

Thanks for all the great advice! I'm learning.
How much do you guys charge? :eek:

[chris_bcn]

It does seem that most people learn the hard way re:contracts. I've had my share of crappy clients, and I didn't have proper contracts for but luckily I haven't had any problems. I got really lucky. Now I don't even lift a pencil without something signed

In terms of pricing - sorry we can't discuss it - http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=312962#post312962

[daSnarf]

I think he was joking about how much we charge for all the valuable info given =)

[budafist]

Hmmm...considering that he gave you a brief (however vague it may be) it would be wrong that just because the final design is similar to your sketches that the other designer didn't come to that conclusion on their own.

I mean, just say all of us here got the same brief. There would be several designs that are similar right?

[majpue]

I know you don't charge for the forum, but I do appreciate the advice!

I politely informed him that my bill does not include any rights to my designs, and I offered to meet if he wishes to use them in any way...

I don't really wish to meet with him after the nasty things he's said, but I hope that makes him think twice before sending the final logo to press! I probably won't pursue this matter any further.

[morea]

hopefully everything will work out for the best.

Stick around, this place is definitely a great resource for any designer. (And typically a boatload of fun, too! ;) )

[morea]

incidentally, if you DO find out that he used your concept without paying you, check out this article:

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14271