Metallics On Uncoated Stock

[YooDooRight]

How decent is the metallic effect on uncoated card and am i wasting my time?

This is the cover design of a digipack cd that i'm having printed on a 300gsm white uncoated card.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/YooDooRight/Front.jpg

Ive not used Metallics before but have checked the swatch in a Pantone book (877 U) and am not expecting to see my face in the reflections but am reasonably happy with what the swatch tells me (877U = a flat, slightly muted glittery grey/silver).

As for the image, i created a black and white tiff, imported it into Quark and coloured it 100% Rich Black (60/40/40/100) and 100% Silver (877U). In photoshop, the dakest dots on my tiff image are around 95% and the lightest around 5% (to allow for any dot-gain).
What i want is a very stark contrast between the black and silver - as in this thumbnail - so the image leaps out from the background... my concern now is that the silver will print a dull medium grey and the image will be without contrast and look awful.

Any ideas if this will work or not?

YDR.

ps; the blue circle is a cover sticker printed on coated stock using Pantone 877 C and a cmyk Blue.

[rickself]

I think because the silver is a metallic and will be going down on top of the 4 color, the metallic will look ok, the image below will be flat because of the uncoated stock. You could have a varnish layer put down to add punch to the 4 color but these are really tricky things for the printer. They will need to use wax free ink...there's an issue whether the metallic will stick to the 4 color or not.

But then, looking at it again, maybe the silver should go down FIRST, and the 4 color on top, there'd be more control of the fine dots of the 4 color.

Talk to your printer. They should be able to lead you in the right direction. This would be one that the pressman should know the answer. This would be an expensive redo.

[YooDooRight]

When you say 'on top of the 4 colour' do you mean the whole surface will be covered in rich black, left to dry and then the silver areas printed on top?

I presumed the silver would be 'touching down' onto the white ares of the card that are left blank after the rich black areas had been printed hence it wouldn't make a difference what colour went down first. So what actually happens in this process?

YDR

[cj2a]

I've done some metallic on uncoated before, and one of my printers ran the metallic first and let it dry before coming back to add in the other colors. That worked pretty well, although metallics on uncoated tend to have a very matte finish rather then a sheen. When I ran a different job laying down the metallic along with a color in one pass, the effect was really strange...kind of like looking at an x-ray because the inks blended together...not really a good effect. It was a duotone of metallic silver and black, and rather than the nice photographic print look I was after, I got x-ray.

Looking at your job, I would venture that the printer would recommend laying down the silver first as a full bleed (with a knockout for the blue circle)...letting that dry, then laying the blue and rich black down over the top of the silver.

[spoocobra]

So you made it a 5/c in quark? Is it printing 5/c or 2/c. Wasn't sure if you already have that sticker printed or if it's on your design? Also why do you want a rich black? It isn't really printing over anything from what I can see. We do all kinds of spot work on uncoated it looks okay. Are you having this aquas coated or UV or antying? We also print spot OVER/on top of the 4/c at times to get a different effect, but usually the spot goes down first then 4/c. Also is this web or sheetfed? Not that it matters just curious, PM or email me if you want more info and if you want send me your file and i'll rip it and look at it. spoocobra

[YooDooRight]

Yes, the whole design is printing 5colour (cmyk + pantone 877u). Its only a crop of the front cover section ive posted above.
The blue circle is a pre-printed sticker that is placed after so ignore that.

I'm printing rich black as it doen't add anything to the cost and i want a really deep black on top of that silver. I've printed 1 colour back on uncoated before and it fades a lot. No aquas or UV's and it's being printed in england so sheetfed i guess.

YDR.

[spoocobra]

Yes, the whole design is printing 5colour (cmyk + pantone 877u). Its only a crop of the front cover section ive posted above.
The blue circle is a pre-printed sticker that is placed after so ignore that.

I'm printing rich black as it doen't add anything to the cost and i want a really deep black on top of that silver. I've printed 1 colour back on uncoated before and it fades a lot. No aquas or UV's and it's being printed in england so sheetfed i guess.

YDR.
I would ask your printer about making it a 5/c in quark otherwise you should be good, also ask them how they are laying the 5th down, first or last. And maybe even a Press Proof if they are willing? Hope that helps ya.

[upekkharich]

Metallic ink is composed of a transparent carrier and large, flat flakes of mica. Standard ink, on the other hand, is composed of much smaller small balls of pigment. The mica flakes have been tinted to give the ink its coloration (all except 877 silver). When the metallic ink is laid on uncoated stock the carrier is absorbed and the flat mica flakes lie upon the uneven surface in a non-flattened fashion, thus it does not reflect smoothly and look metallic, but (as in 877) appears as light gray. The largest paper fibers do appear shiny, though they are still very small. Placing a varnish or coating on the ink will not change the reflectivity, but will only lighten the overall appearance a slight amount by introducing additional light difussion.

Metallic ink achieves it's intended effect of reflectivity best when placed on smooth, coated stock. The reflectivity is also best communicated when there are large enough areas of metallic to reflect light into the eye. By using a grayscale when using metallic inks you are asking the press to place metallic ink in halftoned dots across the paper, the size of the dot will determine what amount of light is reflected. Anything less than 100% metallic will have non-reflective paper, or other ink color, mixed with reflective metallic, creating a (as in 877) gray tone.

Metallic ink does not dry fast. So, when metallic ink is trapped to other inks it is done so as dry-trapping, versus wet-trapping - that is, there is no trap. In standard inks the trap allows inks to overlap eachother by a small amount. But, because metallic ink dries so slowly and transfers back onto other ink blankets, it cannot be printed in the same space as any other ink. When you ask a printer to print one ink, take your job off the press for 2 days to dry, then put it back on the press you are driving up your costs.

I usually recommend to customers that metallic ink areas be no smaller than 1/32" (or about 12 pixels wide and tall at 400 dpi). When metallic ink areas are smaller the area really doesn't reflect enough light to register in the eye. I would recommend that the image be converted to bitmap to prevent any halftoning of your metallic dots at the printer's RIP and also ensure that no metallic area is any smaller than 1/32" tall and wide.

Good luck!

[steve2112]

Exactly what rich said and give it plenty of time for the metallic ink to dry. We have a few metallic ink jobs we do every year, journals, and sometime th coated stuff will take forever to dry properly but defintely bitmap the image as halftone metallics look real real ral bad

steve

[YooDooRight]

Anything less than 100% metallic will have non-reflective paper, or other ink color, mixed with reflective metallic, creating a (as in 877) gray tone.


But if a full bleed 100% Pantone silver was laid down first, left to dry and the black added after would this not avoid an ink mix and retain the silvers limited reflectivness? In my Pantone book although we're not talking foil, uncoated silver still has a nice glitter effect to it... am i going to lose this on the above image then?

YDR

ps; would a foil be more cost effective than the route i'm currently taking? I'd love to just forget uncoated and print this thing on gloss but i can't. I need a solution for getting a silver/black duotone on uncoated stock.

[budafist]

Foil is expensive, but looks killer. Check to see the pricing of it at your printers. Only thing with foil is that the tiny bits of silver may turn out not as you intended. Foil can be used for small areas, but a little unpredictable depending on how good the printers are.

[upekkharich]

the extra costs incurred with foil come from the material itself and the cost of purchasing a foiling die - which will definately not work with this image - it has far too much detail to resolve all of the positive and negative areas

foil detailed areas no smaller than 1/32", but that depends upon the depth of the die and the thickness f the paper, this being an uncoated stock the beveled edges of the die will hold some foil, and each piece would have it's own unique application of foil, due to the nature of the materials and procedures involved

sure it can be printed in metallic, allowed to dry then overprinted in rich black
, there are just the afore mentioned caveats to remember to consider

[protone]

YDR,

Rich is right from an ink maker standpoint, metallic on offset/uncoated looses its brilliance as the vehicle (pigment transfer agent) within the ink is absorbed into the paper substrate. When absorbed the metallic mica is not placed flat but angled so the reflection properties of the metallic ink are lost in regards to their full visual reflectance properties. You can lay-down the 877 silver first and request your printer uses a LOW VOC metallic ink with wax-free properties to ensure on a second pass after backing up the job that the subsequent ink layer (black) adheres properly, which it will! Ask the printer to use an MD-Both 9607 ink (this is wax-free & low VOC), he/she may be getting Eckart metallics but they have a version of this as well. One other note, a foil substrate is a much more costly approach, the stock will double in cost as well as require the printer to use a special ink series designed for foils which also double in cost. A nice approach which may work would be to look at Pearlescents, these are additives than can be added to a varnish in your case as an AQ will curl the sheet and should not be attempted, even if the AQ is a de-curling version.

Ok, I am not a designer but ink maker, here goes -

Print as intended, lay down first pass 877 (or alternative gray tone) silver low VOC, wax free - printer will back up the job to dry, then they will go back on press print the rich black and then wet trap a gloss/satin varnish or you can use transparent white with the "IRIODIN AFFLAIR 153 FLASH PEARL" additive. This will bring the luster to a new level, I have samples and I wish I could scan them so you could see but they would not show-up. Anyways, here is the benefit - when the silver is laid down first and dries it has effectively filled the gaps of the uncoated sheet and has created a level surface for you now to create your metallic luster on. The mica in the pearlescent will lay flat, the draw back is spot varnishing with the additive on a piece of design as complicated as it is image wise might be challenge for the printer but if you are willing to even luster the black with the pearlescent then you could potentially have one cool cover!!

If you need some links to learn more about iriodin AFFLAIR hit me back with an e-mail and I would be glad to send you a link!

Later,

Sean
Protone Inks & Coatings Ltd.

[protone]

YDR...

I forgot to mention, if you want to see how this would look prior to actually printing it offset there is a way.

Contact the Printer you use to contact the ink maker to contact EMD Pigments & Chemicals and request a rub-on (seriously, keep your minds out of the gutter, I can hear you chuckling from here):eek: .

Rub-ons are transfer films that are applied to the parts of a design (proof) that are to be created with iriodin. The iriodin is simply applied with hand pressure to the design object from the underside of the transfer film. This makes it possible to evaluate the effect with regard to its suitability as a refinement right to the original design!!

Heck, your ink maker might even have access to a Cromalin analog process from DuPont. In this, the effect pigment is applied by hand on a photopolymer-coated substrate. After the exposure process sticky area's remain on the substrate which can be applied with the effect pigment powders. Basically, the refined surface show the original effect that they will also later have on the press proof!

Good luck and again, if you need more info drop me a line.

[cgmpowers]

We're currently doing a coupon that has gold pantone ink on the back, and gold ink pantone type on the front. On the edgest we're doing gold foil.

Honestly I am not sure how it's going to look but I'm excited to see something I made foiled and gold inked--although I'm a little hesitant about the combination we're doing.