Quack Xpress

[dakels]

[you can ignore initial rant]

Anyone in publishing knows how chaotic the software scene is. What makes it so much worse is that our main page layout program, Quark is in a horrible phase right now. Quark established itself as the dominant page layout program after 3.32. They created a robust application that shot ahead of the main competition, Pagemaker by Adobe. With enterprise solutions and solid prepress workflow, the industry made Quark the standard.

After a bit of initial problems, Quark did release another solid upgrade with 4.0 and eventually 4.1. 4.1 has been an industry standard since it’s release… over 6 years ago. The funny thing is… people are STILL using it!

Why?

1) Quark 5 was junk. It was a weak attempt to carbonize Quark 4 into an OS X application. It’s first release was so pathetically bad they pulled it off the shelves for a few months for an overhaul. It’s reincarnation was better but still not a solid product. So people stayed with 4.1.
2) Quark 6 is not ready. It is a new application that is finally OS X native. After a poor launch of quark 5 and the public losing their patience and moving towards a maturing Indesign, Quark hurried their release of 6. Unfortunately this was another huge mistake. Too little testing and too many bugs have made Quark 6 generally unaccepted in the prepress industry. Nobody wants to beta test Quark 6 when they have deadlines to meet.

So where does that leaves the designers? Most still using Quark 4.1 running OS X in classic or the antiquated OS 9. Now as Apple is within weeks of phasing out the last OS 9 compatible machines, so where does that leave the designers? Working with a buggy classic mode with Quark 4.1 and ATM deluxe? Are we ready for Indesign? More so, is Indesign ready for us?

As important it is for designers to have a comfortable tool/software to work with, we also need to comply with the demands of our press houses. Right now the bulk of our press houses are not comfortable with Quark 6 or Indesign 3 files due to their problematic nature… Which leaves us running classic or saving to another format like down to 4 or PDF. I find it to be a pretty sad state of the industry. We put a huge reliance on a company (Quark) who’s management figured being number 1 in the market meant they could be lazy at our expense. We put a lot of time, training, and MONEY working with Quark. I know I am not alone when I say that I feel burned by Quark.

[sorry for that I sometimes lose control over Quark topics :P]

anyways... to the point /emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

What are you doing for page layout and what is your setup. Personally I decided to use Quark 6 and save to PDF. For my office (the magazine part) though, I am going to look into an Indesign workflow that outputs to PDF for finals (means we have to archive 2 sets of files of course). It has alot of benefits with page layout and editorial and our printer won't do Quark 6. I am going to speak with a friend from Conde Nasty and make a decision. For now it is a butchered Quark 4.1 and ATM in classic, while AI 10 and PS are in OS X. Font management is a nightmare. Kinda screwy but normal in the industry. Some people still boot into OS 9 but not after we all upgrade to G5's. G5's wont boot OS 9.

thoughts?

Post Edited (dakels) : 8/3/2004 3:14:11 AM GMT

[Kool]

You nailed it right on the head dakels. I think Quark burned too many people to ever recover.

http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/signew.jpg

'You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.' H. J. Simpson

[ylaenna]

Damn, when you put it that way, it is pretty pancakeed up, ain't it? Makes you wonder what the industry standard will be a year from now. Maybe the situation will force all our hands and InDesign will become the new goto layout program. :D

At my last office job, I worked with XPress 4.1 on a Mac OS9. I had purchased Jaguar and other software upgrades, but didn't trust that it would run smoothly. Since I was the only designer / Mac IT person in the office (I know you feel my pain here, DZ), I decided to stick with my current set-up so at least I knew that my workflow would not be interrupted and all our clients would keep getting their art. I also used XPress 5 on a PC (Windows NT), when needed.

Now, working freelance from home, I use XPress 5 on a PC (Windows XP) and I haven't had any software problems. I output to high-res PDF. I keep telling myself I will learn InDesign soon, but I've been saying that for the last 2 years or so. :\ Lazy me.

THINGS GO WELL AH MAHT BE SHOWIN HER MAH OH FACE...

[D-Zine]

Oh yeah ylaenna! I feel yer pain!! LOL!
I have been using Quark since I was in college. At my job I use Quark v5 with no problems really...I output everything to PDF files and upload those to the press. It's just much easier doing the PDFs for the press then them dealing with font issues, having to collect and send that crap to them, them having to relink, and blah blah blah...big ole pain! I do PDFs from Quark for BOTH pubs....running OS9. But...

as many already know, this week I will be upgrading the hell outta my office. Upgrading to OSX, Adding Adobe CS packages, putting in Quark 6..pretty scared about it too but for one of the pubs I have to stick with Quark for now. After using ID on a HUGE freelance project, I have decied to switch our monthly pub out of Quark and into InDesign. I did contact the press I work with to be sure this wouldn't be a problem....but in the end result, they get PDF files from me no matter what so they don't care what I do the layout in allthough I can use either they said and she was pushing ID kinda ;o)

Before I used ID I couldn't imagine not using Quark, but now that I have used ID and see how user friendly it is.....I can very easily see it becoming the industry standard in time since Quark has sh!t on all of us!!! LOL ;o)

Oh and ylaenna...learn InDesign....really! You will thank yourself. Its a great program from what I have learned so far!




Boobie Island or Bust!

[dakels]

wasn't really ready in the past 2 years ylaenna so don't feel bad. We go with what we know and have been trained for. I will say though that Indesign has really made strides. As much of an big empire adobe has become, they still work hard to keep their customers happy IMO. I mean the creative suite contains an industry leading illustration application, a photo editing application which has been undeniably the best in the biz for years, and a page layout program which is the #2 (and climbing fast) page layout application... and for what $999 while Quark demands $1045 (and a pain in the arse secure internet verification to install) for just a buggy page layout app which can't even cut it as a production standard? What the hell is that about!

(sorry... been dealing with a art dept that has been screwed over by its need to use OS9 and quark 4.1.) :P

p.s. Also, using all adobe products makes playtime fun!

p.p.s. D- be careful about some issues with CS too. Illustrator has one huge debatable flaw... Saving down (or exporting) to legacy AI will make the type virtually uneditable. If you do any page layout in AI like I used to (for single sheet designs, product labels, signage) it can be a pain. Its not a big deal to most, depending on your needs.

ppppssss.... Also, quark 6 can be very problematic exporting PDFs sometimes. Its not a bad idea to get one copy, test a bunch of pages and scenarios and send them thru the prepress gamut to see.

pppppppppssssssssssssssssss........ btw another note... if you havent seen it, InCopy is a very cool application that works with Indesign. It allows editors to make copy changes without screwing up your layouts. They get all the type controls and styles but cannot make layout changes, only type. Its great for publishing workflow where you do not want editors who know nothing about quark or indesign to go in and mess up the designers formatting. Its also much cheaper then buying page layout software licenses for editors.
http://www.adobe.com/products/incopy/main.html

Post Edited (dakels) : 8/3/2004 3:42:00 AM GMT

[D-Zine]

LOL...thanks dakels! I am aware of Quark 6 PDF issues...that is why I am a little nervous. I have to layout 64 pages and do all 64 PDFs in about 4 hours to make my deadline to the press. I can't have ANY problems. So..I will have to test things a great deal somehow. We already have all the copies of v6 in...I'm just waiting for the Adobe suite to come before I do my overhaul. It was suppose to be here 2 weeks ago!!!!!! But I have been assured it would be here by wed so we shall see.

I have done some reading in InCopy. I don't have any issues with the editor going in and changing things where I currently work but goooood gawd I could have SO used that at my previous job!!!! LOL!

I don't do ANY layouts in Illustrator at my current job (just illustrations, logos, etc) so I don't have to worry about the flaw you mentioned really....but if I do, I have no reason to save anything down so that shouldn't be a problem either. :o)

Thanks for the tips...I welcome them as in a week or 2 I may be in the soapbox crying for help bc ppl won't leave me alone bc they dunno WTF they are doing with all the new stuff and I get tired of hearing my name all the time and OMG I ranted too!!!! ROFLMFAO!!!!! ;o)

/emoticons/cheers.gif

Boobie Island or Bust!

[PrintDriver]

Even in large format, Quark 6 is still looked upon with trepidation. It isn't consistant when run thru a rip. When one prob gets fixed, another pops up. It's bizarre to say the least. Even the pdf's sometimes are screwy. Not at all like 4.11 which is a good, solid, stable workhorse.

InDesign 3 is not as stable as 2 either. And you can't save down there. Sometimes (rarely) files have to be rebuilt just to get them printed in time.

I know, in another thread I said we accept any and all files, and we do. Just sometimes..................

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[D-Zine]

LOL!! I hear ya PD!!

;o)

Boobie Island or Bust!

[defjoe]

I was a HUGE quark fan. I learned on it and loved it so. But I was so sick of them dragging their ass in respects of an upgrade. you are right that 5 was a joke! then they finally went OS X and ...nothing! CRAP! no really new inovations. ID left them in the dust as far as I was concerned. but as far as output I always include a PDF with my disk I send to any printer. It's always press ready. Whether they use it or not, I have no clue. but they have that option. I have yet to have a complaint.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'

Dam Quark is back to it's old behavior of not making PDFs. I even downloaded the 6.1 PDF update and it still gives me problems. Hey at least style sheets work (half the time).

I feel your pain people, I only wish I was a spectator in this but all to well I am also a victim.


…my name is Benjo and I’m switching to MS Word

[DeleteYourself]

Blasphemy!!!!

At work we use Quark 6, but at home I'm a full-fledged ID convert. Eventually, I think most people will make the switch to ID based on cost and functionality.

http://www.dafenix.org/todd/dy.gif
Support Music and Arts Education
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[D-Zine]

*sigh*
I can't hear about ANYMORE issues with Quark 6 and PDFs when I am getting ready to upgrade! Your FREAKIN ME OUT here!! 64 pages to layout in 4 hours...MUST HAVE 64 PDFs as well to upload...ALL IN 4 HOURS...I can't have these complications and I can't switch this one paper over to ID...just not an option right now. Too many hands in the pot on that pub so to speak, to switch it over.

If there is a God out there...please listen...I NEED QUARK TO ACTUALLY FUNCTION PROPERLY when I make my PDFs for press bc I don't have time to screw around and you guys are freakin me out!!! /emoticons/weep.gif

ROFLMFAO!

Benjo - what kinda problems are you getting in Quark when you try to make a PDF??

Boobie Island or Bust!

The program will just say unable to create a PDF and thats it. If you have Adobe CS don't worry it comes with Acrobat 6.0 Pro and you are going to need that cause to be honest I wouldn't trust the Quark PDF output feature. I've tryed exporting them as PS (post script) files and then I distill them with Apples preview app (I bet you didn't know that little preview app distilles PS documents), sometimes it works and sometimes you want to put your hand right through that lovely 20' monitor.

I'm just not happy with Quark as darkels said it's like Quak just doesn't care. I would switch everything to ID but to be honest that is alot of work on my part. I might just start working with ID on somethings and leave some in Quark as I make this transition and I really hope all goes well for you D-zine.

On the PC side are people switching to ID cause you can run Quark 4.1 on XP right? Lucky bastids!

[defjoe]

DZ you will really love ID for what you do...trust me.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'

[D-Zine]

I use distiller when I make my PDFs even now...I set up the presses job options and leave distiller running in the background. When I export to PDF in Quark, under options>output, I have the printer description set to Distiller....so do you do it that way and have it set up that way or do you just export to PDF and not choose any specific options? Just curious - tryin to get all my ducks in a row for next week!!!

On the PC...I use both Quark and ID at home...I'm changin one pub here at work (on Mac) to ID, but not the other. its a HUGE transition - like you said, so that one will take time. I like ID tho...ALOT!

Joe - I think yer right. For the shopper - which is all the auto stuff - that one has to stay Quark for awhile. The Spanish paper...that one is fun and I get to make alot more pleasing to the eye...its not as standard so I am switchin it to ID as soon as the CS package walks through the door! Then I can get more creative with it. I feel in the short tiime that I have used ID that its got more of a creative flow to it than Quark does...you can just do more...and easier...LOL! Fun stuff!

Boobie Island or Bust!

Post Edited (D-Zine) : 8/3/2004 2:45:30 PM GMT

No I have it set as the default so it uses Quarks built in features. I have Acrobat 5.0 so it only runs on classic and I reinstalled the system so Classic doesn't even boot cause I erased OS9.2 Genuis I know!

Your completely right about ID giving you more creative freedom. I can bet that Photoshop User Magazine is done in ID. Just look at it you'll know off that bat to do that effect it has in Quark would have to be imported as images. Quark is limiting and that InCopy program looks sweet I could use that around here.

One thing I completely love about ID is that it names swatches by CMYK percentages. I'm a custom color nut always selecting colors and writing the values on scrap paper, this is a God send feature. LOL!

[D-Zine]

Ahhhh ok ok great news for me! That could be where the problem you are having is. You don't have Acrobat 6? Crap that sucks! I won't ..WILL NOT...use the Quark defaults...my settings will be set to Distiller so it uses those settings. I really shouldn't have the issue you are having then...atleast I HOPE!! We will find out soon! Thanks for the answer!! :o)

Oh yeah I do the values all the time too...sticky notes ALL over the place. At my job I never get to use Pantones...never, so this is a cool feature for me too!

Boobie Island or Bust!

[jennifer]

At work we only use Quark for outputting customer jobs, we also sometimes use ID, all on Mac (currently OS9, soon to be OSX).
At home, I'm on a PC/XP machine and usually use Quark 4.1 simply because I don't yet own ID.
I can't wait to switch. Even though I learned on Pagemaker, Quark was my favorite. However, I've seen what ID can do and it just makes Quark look so clunky and antiquated. I mean, hell, I still only have ONE level of undo!!!! That alone drives me insane! I can't believe the size of the ball Quark dropped by not keeping up with the demands of their customers. I don't know if anyone's noticed lately, but you can't even seem to buy an upgrade anywhere but the Quark website, what a rip!

[PrintDriver]

In InD, I just wish a double click with the arrow tool on a text box activated the text tool like it does in Illustrator. Gotta put another keystroke in there to switch. Wah.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

I love ID really it's great. I just got my Trifold back from the printer I designed it in ID man I love it. It just looks great!

Wooooohoooooooooo!

[Cuda]

I am an InDesign guy. I started with it and have played with quark but thought ID was superior. I also run an XP box because I hate Apples (I think from too many Oregon trail Games when I was a kid). I haven't had much problem sending ID 2 jobs to printers I think they have that nailed down. ID to me is nice also because you are on familiar ground if you use illustrator, photoshop or any of Adobe's products.

My thoughts,
Cuda

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