Employer rights

[colorsplashstudio]

I should probably know a lot more about this than I do, but I have never had any problems until recently. I worked full time as a designer for a non-profit. I have some things I did for them while working there in my online portfolio. A few things I did as a freelancer and other things as an employee. I received a letter from them today, as it's been on the web for 6+ months, asking me to remove the work I did for them as they own it. Do I have any options here? I don't think I even signed anything when I started stating this is true, or is this just common knowledge and I am behind?

Thanks for any input and advice.
Jamie

[StupidDarthFlanders]

I hate to say it but they do have the right to ask you to remove it. An agency that I used to work for will not allow anyone to put work they did while there online.

[JMarketingCorp]

Jamie,

The “work-for-hire” rule in the Copyright Act gives the the employer ownership of the copyright to works produced by it employees within the scope of their employment. If they paid you for work, you are essentially "selling" your right to that work at that time. So, they probably can ask you to remove it from your site.

Travis

[mojoprime]

unless you specifically stipulated that you shared rights to the stuff you produced while working there, then i think you're out of luck. they own it and everything else you did while you were there. usually, it's not that big of a deal as some companies won't care if you post your portfolio and include some of the work you did while you were there. That's one of the reasons it's so important in our biz not to burn bridges. Not saying you did, i'm just saying.

i don't think you'd get by them by renaming the pieces either ("brochure i did for a non-profit") because they'll probably check back. you may have to chalk it down to a learning process and use those pieces in your physical portfolio or just send them to prospective employers on request/

[mojoprime]

by the way, welcome to the forums, jamie.

[morea]

did you happen to have a contract when you did the work for them? That can usually settle these sorts of things with minimal headaches. I wonder why they would want it removed, rather than viewing it as a sort of 'free advertising'. To each his own, I guess.

[budafist]

I think:
As an employee, you cannot put their work on your site. It belongs to the client and of the company/agency you worked for.
As a freelancer, you can put that stuff on your site.

[Virgo Nightingale]

It would be one thing to have the pieces included in a physical porfolio that you bring to a job interview, etc., but an online portfolio is generally viewable by the whole world, and that makes it an entirely different situation.

[mojoprime]

i just got my new guild pricing guide with some of this in there, i just haven't gotten that deep into it yet. *wrings hands*

[colorsplashstudio]

Thanks, guys. That stinks, but live and learn I suppose. You guys are so helpful!

[Derfie]

I have been working on my website, I have a general gallery area, but I also plan to have a passworded section where potential clients/employers could access some of my work. That way it's not out there for the whole world to see, but will still be available "On-Line" when I give someone log-in information.

[CamarotaDesign]

Personally, I'd tell them to piss off, till they send a letter from a lawyer. Why are they being jerks? did you leave on a bad note or something?

Let's make this analogy:

Even though the Beatles don't own the rights to their music, they still are entitled to claim that they wrote their songs. Their Identity doesnt get wiped out just because their contract stated the record company owned their music.

Certainly you can't take those files and use them for other clients, But I think if you had a good lawyer, you could probably get the right to post the work on your site. This is just my opinion though, I can't tell you for certain. I guess a contract really would settle it.

If you didn't sign anything that stated all work done for their company becomes
their property, I don't see how they can keep you from putting it online in any way.

[mojoprime]

i think that, if you're truly secure in your job and never plan to leave (or make a mistake), i think you might be able to get away with that. but where i'm at (and with the wonderful world wide web, that's beginning to matter less and less), word gets around about people who are "hard to work with."

*colorful expletives removed*

i just don't think further pissing off someone who might already have bad taste in their mouth due to something you may (or may not) have done is the right way to go.

send them a nice letter, say please, and if they still say no, put it in a physicial portfolio, mail them pdfs if they request it, or do what derfie suggests.

[colorsplashstudio]

Yeah, I have thought of the password protected portfolio area. Just so competitors can't see who my clients are and approach them themselves, but now for this reason as well. Do you suggest having a few print pieces on display and have some sort of form for users to fill out to view the full portfolio? I am concerned now about this nonprofit approaching clients I have worked for that they know of because they can see them in my portfolio. It obviously isn't above them as they don't have anything better to do than surf the internet and send letters to me and their attorneys.

I'm getting a little nervous now. So what you know of this situation, what should I do? I can't have a totally password protected portfolio-no one will be able to view my work!

[mojoprime]

i still think you're asking for it that way. i think there's something in the copyright terminology about "substantially modifying" something, but i'd just password protect the entire thing just in case.

and now a word from the truly paranoid: then there's the possiblity that your former will employer will contact you under an assumed name inquiring about you doing some work...

i seriously doubt that. if they're doing that, clearly they need to be doing more RFPs or something.

[colorsplashstudio]

Derfie, what is your website so I can see how you do it?

Here is a place I work with that does that. What do you think about this?
www.heulegordon.com (http://www.heulegordon.com) They require users to call their toll free number to obtain a password. The password is the same for everyone. I have a toll free number so I could do this I suppose. I could list the things I do with a couple of thumbnails, but no company names...

[colorsplashstudio]

Oh my goodness! You are so right! She would so do something like that. Do other people have these problems, or I am just out here on this one?? Wow. I just want to exist and be left alone. Like I am causing them any havoc? I don't think so.

You guys are so great. I really appreciate it.

[mojoprime]

that's pretty nifty, i reckon. i imagine they did that based on a similar set of circumstances that you're experiencing, but do you have a close enough relationship with them to ask? it never hurts.

[mojoprime]

i still think, lock it down on the web and play it straight and professional. in the long run, your karma will be better for it and you'll get the reputation as being a straight arrow. goes a long way to some folks.

[colorsplashstudio]

Yeah actually he told me that they ran into an issue of competitors approaching their clients, and a few of their clients didn't want their things displayed on the web. He said they do it just because when you display your portfolio everyone figures out who is doing work for who. I think it works because in the drop-down it lists the categories so people know that they do quite a few things so it might be worth their time to call and get a password. Ya think?

[colorsplashstudio]

So here is the final decision. You suggest having my portfolio totally password protected. Should I still have the works from the non-profit in the password protected portfolio or remove them altogether?

I haven't had a problems yet, but should I lock down my illustration and web portfolios as well do you think?

I know I keep going on and on about this, so thanks so much for helping me figure this out in some sort of ethical way!

[mojoprime]

a good thought. you might even think of doing custom passwords or usernames, though, so you'd be able to keep track of who's logging in. just a thought. i imagine they do their system like that because of sheer volume, but most designers can't hope for that much traffic.

though, we can dream about being so busy we have staffs of 80!

[CamarotaDesign]

ooh ooh, maybe you could put a block on their IP!!!

[mojoprime]

i know some designers who don;t go through that much trouble and seem to have no problems. a lot of them are on this forum, so i would let them speak to that, which they could do better than me.

i will say if you're having that problem with one of your former employers, and the materials are really that important to your portfolio, then put them some place where you can control who gets to see them. and, to make them not seem so mysterious, you might as well put the rest of your stuff there. and, you can use the explaination your printer friends used when people ask why you did it. if nothing else, it may give the impression that you're so hot, you're in high demand. and that could be a good thing as well.

but don't court problems with your old employer. just be safe. though you'd probably only get a letter from a lawyer, it sounds less like "probably" and more like "if you post that stuff, we're coming after you."

and byt he by, that's what these forums are for. there are some very smart folks here, and some hellacious artists. take a minute and stroll around. you'll be glad you did.

[mojoprime]

hee hee. i was thinking about that, cam... ;)

[Derfie]

Derfie, what is your website so I can see how you do it?

Here is a place I work with that does that. What do you think about this?
www.heulegordon.com (http://www.heulegordon.com) They require users to call their toll free number to obtain a password. The password is the same for everyone. I have a toll free number so I could do this I suppose. I could list the things I do with a couple of thumbnails, but no company names...

My situtaion is a little different. I have started a business doing Fine Art, illustration and Teaching workshops. I don't want to be a Graphic Designer Full-time, as I have an illustration degree. If you go to my site, I have my fine art/illustration gallery visible to anyone. Most of my Graphic Design work, I will solicite myself, or will come strictly from word of mouth. In that case I will create a custom user name and password for specific people to log-in to see my Graphic work. Also, the majority of my Graphic Design work was done in house, so I don't necessarily want it floating around the web for anyone to see.

I am in the process of cleaning up the overall look of my site, I am not really a web designer, so it's learn as I go. If you go to the Bio page, you can see that I have a log-in option at the bottom. Right now I don't have any pages that link to it yet. http://www.hummingbird-arts.com

[Ned]

If you really feel the importance to display portfolio items you have created, then you should be working for yourself, under your own contracts.

The logic of the situation is this, as far as the employer is concerned - if you are working for them, as their employee, then why should you need to build your portfolio? (Yes, logic also states that they probably hired you in the first place BECAUSE of your portfolio)

On the other hand, if you are building your own business, and soliciting your own clients, then you NEED those items to be available for your own marketing, and if you are working for yourself, they always WILL be, unless you sign off otherwise.

If a company has hired you 'work-for-hire', but is not providing you enough hours, or whatever, to make a living, then you need to consider moving on. If a Graphic Designer is to be tied solely and loyally to one company, then they should be well compensated for that right! (This is the biased opinion of a solely Independent Designer, by the way)

[colorsplashstudio]

Yes, this is true. I have another question then about this. I do work for two big places under contract. I am not an employee. Should I have these places sign something stating I have the right to display the work I do for them and their clients (if applicable) in my online portfolio? I am doing this right now and there are no problems, but now that this issue has come up, I feel the need to have these things clearly stated in writing with these places as to avoid something like this in the future.

Please advise.

[Kool]

Everybody here seems to be trying to come up with creative ways to get around the law. This company has every right to ask for these items to be removed from your site. Seems to me the easiest and most ethical way to deal with this situation is to remove the items.

[CamarotaDesign]

Big Daddy Kool comes in to give the spankings. :D

I still think that if there was no contract signed regarding useage and literally who owns the work it's ok for Jamie to post it on her site.

[colorsplashstudio]

Yeah, I am going to remove the work, but it now has me thinking about pros and cons of having a password protected portfolio.

Pro:
Competitors can't see who my clients are and try to approach them
Former employer can't approach them
I could get a chance to talk and communicate with people who are viewing my work, which I can sell them on me then!:)
Could, as mojoprime mentioned, make me appear "in demand"

Con:
Not everyone can see my work, which could be bad because I will undoubtly lose some in the password process.

Hmmm, I dunno. I have noticed other companies in my area (i.e. competitors) don't display too much of their work on their site, which now I am wondering if there is a reason for that. I'm not trying to target the world here, but mostly locally. Networking is a great thing, but in some cases can work against you, as with everything.

Maybe I should start a new thread for this...

[Kool]

Big Daddy Kool comes in to give the spankings. :D

Heh heh, that's me :D

It just seemed a little weird that so many people were so willing to try and think of ways to get around the same usage rights and such that we all rely on to protect OUR OWN work from usage we for whatever reason don't want. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[PrintDriver]

If it was work for hire you are out of luck. The company you worked for at the time owns it. And sometimes, if the company is a marketing firm or print firm, there is an ultimate client that has final say on whether it can appear on a website. We do work for many designers' clients that allow us to show images of their tradeshow stuff but don't allow us to use searchable text to describe it. That's one reason there are Flash Galleries at a lot of production websites.

The advertising works two ways on searchable text. I know a designer who got busted because his website actually appeared higher in the search ratings than his client did because he keyworded their company name with the exhibit. LOL!

Check out Jeff Fisher's contract that stipulates his freelance work can be used in portfolio or design competitions as part of his agreement.

[colorsplashstudio]

Check out Jeff Fisher's contract that stipulates his freelance work can be used in portfolio or design competitions as part of his agreement.

Where would I find this?

I decided to password protect my web and print portfolios for now. I left the illo one unprotected. Most clients I get are word of mouth and look at my website after the fact of discovering me, so this should not be a problem. I am going to see how it works out. You never know until you try something.

[mojoprime]

not so much trying to get around the law as rather to find a way for her to be able to display the work but not infringe on anyone's rights. i mean, unless you follow the absolute letter of the law, you're going to infringe on someone's rights. i was just trying to find a way for her to be able to put her stuff and not get sued.

i mean, PD and Kool are right. if you have worries, don't do it. it's the only way to be safe, in the way abstinence is the only way to protect you form getting pregnant. if it means enough to you, consult a lawyer and find out what your rights are under the law, clearly. you may find that the only way you're going to be able to use the materials are as prints and samples in your portfolio. that would be a shame, but legally, it's probably your only recourse.

i'd like to see jeff's contract sample. is there one on the forums somewhere? i ask because i'm working on modifying my own.