Changes to work you have done for a client..is there a limit?

[Den-s]

I have had some headaches over clients wanting too many changes...and sometimes they have me change things and then go back to the original. I am just curious on how other designers would handle this. It gets frustrating when ou have manipulated your work so much,then they just want it back the way it was in the first place.:mad:

[morea]

Are you using a contract? (You should ALWAYS use a contract.)

My contract includes a limited number of revisions, after which the client is billed an hourly rate for revisions with a minimum charge of 1/4 hour.

It is best to spell out all of these details before beginning a project so that both you and your client know what to expect.

[Ned]

A "Proof Limit", is what that's called.

My contract also states a proof limit.

[budafist]

This is a universal problem isn't it? We have no limits at my day job. I get paid by the hour anyway so I don't mind so much. It's the freelancing stuff that really bites you in the posterior.

Have a proof limit.

[Ned]

3 or 5 proofs is pretty standard...

That doesn't mean, "Make me 5 designs, and I'll choose which one I like!"

That means, "I make you a design according to your brief, and if you don't like this or that in the design, you've got no more than 5 chances to make a big change, or scrap the idea totally."

[PrintDriver]

3 to 5 PROOFS?
3 to 5 revisions maybe.
Proofs you should limit to 2 because once you get to proof all text and images and colors should be nailed down already. Only if something very bad happens (like your fonts not ripping or your colors react poorly) does even a second proof become warrented.

You may also want to note that the cost for changes to a proof are based on what the print vendor charges you and you will pass that cost on to the client- unless it's your mistake.

[greyghost]

I have a 3-proof limit. Your original, a total revison, and one more. That's it. You want more than that... you gonna pay by the hour for it.

[PrintDriver]

3-proof or 3-revision.
Again, a proof is what you get from the printer.
We call design submittals...uh...'design submittals'.
Up to you I suppose. 3 print proofs could run you some big dough if misconstrued by the client.

[balou]

When I show the work to my customer, I call it a proof. Once we agree on a design, I usually figure on showing my customer 3 proofs/revisions/design submittals. I tell them that major changes along the way will incur additional charges and always leave space in the agreement that states if the project goes over the estimated time, you will contact the customer and charge your hourly rate.

As far as having them go back to the first proof, I save multiple versions of the document - example "documentname-proof1". Too many times have I heard "I like proof 2, let's go back to that."

If this is the first time you've worked with the customer, the next estimate you give them will most likely have room for multiple revisions.

[Ned]

3-proof or 3-revision.
Again, a proof is what you get from the printer.
We call design submittals...uh...'design submittals'.
Up to you I suppose. 3 print proofs could run you some big dough if misconstrued by the client.

True, proof is very confusing... I think we're all talking about revisions before it goes to pre-flight (ie, email proofs). Hopefully that's made clear to the client. :D

[Kesh]

Sometimes I like to present unfinished work that's about 75-80% done to get their opinion before I continue. Sometimes I don't know how to count these as 'revision stages' as it says in my contract or if the client understands this is a 'revision stage'. See what I'm sayin'?

[budafist]

You should present drafts to your client before embarking on a job Kesh. That way you don't show them stuff that is only half finished.

[DesignStudio]

Two magical words for freelancers out there that will greatly improve your quality of life: hourly rate.

[Six]

I have a client who is never satisfied with the first estimate I give them, which is written and priced according to extensive experience doing work for this client. Inevitably, they want the price reduced. So, I first rewrite the terms and take out steps they don't think they need (and I know they do) and reduce the price. Have you noticed? I reduced the service and the price accordingly. There is a big fat disclaimer on the estimate that this is based on the specifications and tasks I spelled out and anything beyond that will be hourly charged. They will usually okay that.

Never fails, they will ask for more revisions (stupid and unnecessary revisions to "take a look"), or some service they made me take out as unneeded, and the meter starts running. Most of the time they blow the reduced budget substantially and often the original estimate as well. I know them better than they know themselves.

The moral of this story - Write very good specs of what you will deliver and at what price - and specify when the clock kicks in. Also, alert them when they are starting on the clock because of some change.

Six

[Hybrid]

My advice is to include any cap or limit you have on changes and all of your policies into the initial contract or agreement for the terms of the job. This will save you alot of time and frustration. If they do not like this then you can simply remind them they signed that they agreed with your policies.

[CatintheHat1]

I have a digital proof (before I send anything off to the printer) limit, but they still drive me insane. Some of the changes just ruin my day. I get really frustrated when it's the client's disorganization (add this, add this now, change this, I can't run that, use this photo, no, I like this photo, the title has changed, I'm going with a new printer, different specs). I am currently paying a freelancer to deal with one client who has had so many revisions and changes that I've lost track and given up...we're in robot mode waiting for it to end. There just comes a point when I want it gone and no amount of money makes me any happier.

And to be really, REALLY evil, I usually refer these clients (they always come back) to a designer who ripped me off a few years ago and thinks I don't know. LOL

[Drazan]

Also make it very plain to the customer that "they" will be responsible for the charges incured after the orginal quote and detailed contract.

Then update them on how many hours each additional change has been made.

I've had a customer go into sticker shock as they didn't realize those "small changes" added up to quite a few hours. Swapping out product photos that needed to be cutout and placed into a new background then color manipulated. Reconfiguring the text to best fit their paragraph of descriptions. going with one color scheme and changing it to another (thus changing every graphic and text to that new color scheme). etc. I must have redone the project twice over from scratch. Eventually I got paid (I don't release the designs until I get paid), but I hope to never have to deal with that type of client again.

[eriual]

Can anyone give an example of how they phrase this revision limit in their contract? I haven't been able to find one that spells out the limit.

[thecat@]

Can anyone give an example of how they phrase this revision limit in their contract? I haven't been able to find one that spells out the limit.

Cutting, pasting and elaborating here (all my business stuff is on a cd in my office, and I'm too lazy to get off the sofa) ...

.................

Design fee includes ____ preliminary concepts and ____ revisions to selected concept.

Additional concepts $ _______ each.

Changes to final design will be provided at an additional cost based on the extent and complexity of the changes, at $ ___ per hour or a mutually agreed upon fee, TBD.

Change of agreed direction constitutes a new project and will be charged accordingly.

.................

note: this comes from the pdf full of forms posted here a week or so back. I just added the revisions clause ...

[eriual]

note: this comes from the pdf full of forms posted here a week or so back. I just added the revisions clause ...

Thanks for the help. Are you referring to this post: http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29392

Or a different one?

[thecat@]

Yes, I believe that's it.

Now here's the thing. Some designers put items like how many design changes, etc, in the proposal. Then link a smaller contract with all the legal terms to the proposal.

So the proposal would look like this ...
(this is way stripped down and can go on for pages, depending on the scope of the project(

Phase One
Three designs presented.
One design direction selected for further development.

Phase Two
One set of revisions are included in this phase.

Phase Three
Final revisions are made. At this point, only minor revisions and/or edits are typically necessary.

That's how I'd do it anyway. It keeps the contract and the legal bits small, and leaves you and the client to hash out the real agreement in an easier to understand language.