has this ever happend to you?

[DesignStudio]

Has anyone ever given out full original psd files and had a client come back? this is related to my other post. my main motivation for handing out the files is that i don't want to lose the client, but the more posts i read, the more popular the opinion seems to be that if you hand them over you will never see the client again- they will just go to their cousin or whoever for free. in this case i happen to know that the client has CS2 himself. i don't expect that he has to come to me for all his work from now on just because i did his logo, but do i have to make it easy for him to make free stuff using my patterns?

Anyway, that was sort of a rhetorical rant, the question i want to ask is has anyone every given out source files to keep a client happy and still got future work from that client? thanks,

[MikeTheVike]

I think the general consensus is to give out vector files for logos. When it comes to layered Photoshop files you keep them, or you charge them more for the layered files.

[DesignStudio]

have you ever had to give them out yourself? i'm sort of at a point where i either have to give out the files or lose the client. the only reason i even care is that he aslo spoke to me about doing his website. however, i'm a little concerned that with the psd files (high res 300dpi) of the business card, letterhead, and logo, he can just take the graphic elements, borders, portions of the logo, etc, and resize or alter them to create his own website layout. so i'm sort of trying to find out if anyone has ever given these files out and not had it bite them in the ass like this.

i don't care if he wants to find a cheaper designer or do future work himself, that's his perogative, but something really rubs me the wrong way about him or someone else only being able to do it because i turned over the files full of elements for them to cut and paste and rearrange. perhaps this is just stingy.

but if so, why is it so acceptable for photographers to get away with this stinginess and not designers? If you have photographs taken by a professional photographer, you never get the negatives unless you pay alot extra for them. and the reason is obvious and simple, they want to control you coming back for prints etc, not going to their cheaper competitors, who aren't as good at photography but who offer cheaper prints. Why isn't it the same way here? or is it? i primarily choose to work with small businesses and startup companies, and i provide them design work at a pretty reasonabe rate, but part of my thinking is that i'm investing in their future business. if they'd come to me and said outright, "we're looking for some files full of graphic elements that we can edit and reuse ourselves to do our own design.", i'd certainly have charged more for that than for a finished logo.

[Takes2ToTricycle]

That's a good point about the photographer. If you have the picture they printed for you, and you try to photocopy the PICTURE, that's still copywritten, and illegal. I am all for the artist getting the money here, but shows how much security is surrounding photographers and their work.

[budafist]

I've never given out photoshop files because I hardly do anything in photoshop. But raw files, yes I give them out - we are the printer here and if they want to do the art themselves that's fine. They will need the software of course. (no, I won't save your business card as a word file).

Common practice is a little of everything, so it's up to you. Just be clear with the client and be consistant. Don't give a client a psd one day and then turn around and say it's against policy to do so another day!

[urstwile]

When it's agreed that a client will get editable files, what we do is, in the case of Photoshop layered files, merge everything down as seems practical. In the case of Illustrator, we try to combine things into manageable layers.

We don't necessarily provide text editable files, unless they agree to buy the font, as that's outside the font license.

[Riya]

hmmm.... whats to stop them from just scanning in the finished business card, letterhead etc. and just rearranging the elements from those for thier website? You may be a little overly paranoid here, then again maybe not. Have you asked them what they want the files for?

[DesignStudio]

yeah he want the files for "archiving" he said. he's a new client to me so I don't know exactly, but his email said, "I'm not saying this will happen, but what if someday you go out of business or i need to go to another designer to have changes made or want to create my own designs for my quickbooks or something? I'll have to start all over". yeah i might be a bit paranoid, and nothing is to stop anyone from scanning or cutting up an existing image except that it's alot more work. like i said, i don't mind if he wants to edit his own text, i happened to use a standard photoshop font so there's no liscensing issues. but it seems like he wants the files for the exact reason i don't want to give them out, so that another designer could someday possibly have all the elements of my design as a template to do other work. In my mind this gives him the ability to hire a less talented and cheaper designer, or get his nephew or whatever to do the work, because pretty much anyone could rearrange what i've given him into future projects. which i suppose is his choice as a consumer too. but what i'm worried about really i guess is the increased potential for abuse of my design or portions of my design elements by his nephew or a cheap designer- potentially even in other logos or work- when i give out the layered files.

thinking back on my first conversation with the client, i think i've discovered what the problem is- is that he is just starting his own business now after being with a larger marketing firm that subcontracts freelancers. i know that it is standard to turn over all source files to another firm who subcontracts you since you, and he did mention to me that the company he used to work for always got source files from designers which is how he knew it was standard practice. i'm pretty sure it is much less standard when you hire a business (like myself) to do your own work, like i'm sure that his former firm didn't hand over the source files to their clients who the designs were actually for- but i don't think he realized any difference there.

and just to show that he is really out of the loop, when i finally agreed to send him layered source files, i told him that i'd send them over when i recieved payment. he left me an angry phone message and an angry email telling me how absurd and ridiculous it was for me to expect payment before turning over the files. he flat out said, "once you recieve payment, why would you ever turn over the files?" what the pancake? uh, how about my reputation? future work? because i said i would? I think it's perhaps a tiiiiiny bit more common for a client to not pay or pay late after recieveing all the files, than for a designer to not turn over files after being paid. something about my research tells me that wouldn't be a good long term business model.

anyway, he ended his email with , "hopefully this is all just a big misunderstanding that can happen when you use email rather than phone..." so we talked it out on the phone and i ate shit and explained that it was just a misunderstanding and not meant to be hostile blah blah blah, i appreciate his business and rely on referrals and repeat business blah blah blah, so of course i'll do whatever it takes to keep him satisfied, blah blah blah. i'm hoping it worked, he said he'd call me later this week about getting started on his website, so we'll see if it paid off or if he's a two faced d-bag.

end rant.

[Riya]

I think you should drop this one.

[Typically]

do you have a contract with your client? if so it should included something about source files and that for an extra fee those files would be available. if not it's something that you should add in for future clients so you don't have this problem.

[budafist]

One of our clients is a university and they require all their designs to be saved on disk as open files for archiving. They use a lots of different designers locally so they need to try and keep everything consistant from year to year. They don't stick to just 1 designer because there is too much work involved for 1 agency.

[DesignStudio]

yeah i'm over it at this point. and i've resolved myself of course to start working with a contract. this posting originally i just wanted to know a simple yes or know if anyone had ever gotton future work from a client who they gave source files to- i didn't intend for it to turn into what it did. i started another thread where i was looking for a full on discussion just to get everyone's opinion, but this one seemed to be the one that caught on. lesson learned with this client and it was a cheap lesson i guess even if i lose the future business. i will post one more and let you know if i do get the next stage of the job in case anyone is curious how it turns out.

[undressedmonster]

do you have a contract with your client? if so it should included something about source files and that for an extra fee those files would be available. if not it's something that you should add in for future clients so you don't have this problem.

Yep, I believe I read this in the Graphic Artists' Guild Pricing Handbook. You have to state it in your contract what "deliverables" the client will be getting. If they want the original files vs. a jpeg, that costs more. If you're designing a logo, you own the copyright unless the client is willing to pay more to buy the copyright from you. (I think I got that right.)

That GAG handbook is VERY handy for freelancers. I know I would have totally screwed myself over as far as pricing and creating contracts had I not bought that book.

[PrintDriver]

If you are designing a logo you should NOT retain copyright. The logo belongs to the client to trademark or register as he sees fit and is an integral part of his business identity. You should charge appropriately for a logo but the vector file and the standards are delivered to the client.

You could keep a copy on file and charge an archive fee if they come back looking for a replacement when they lose the disk. LOL!

Always use a contract. For everything.

[Ned]

Heh, yes, PD is absolutely right, you must release copyrights to a client for a logo project!! That doesn't mean that you don't maintain rights to display it in your portfolio, that's your inherent right if you don't sign it away (ie, for non-disclosure reasons).

As far as handing off files, I always release full final deliverables once the job's done, and I allow up to 15 days for payment. Yes, they always come back. They don't go to some hack to finish the job off, or leave you sitting on the other half of the payment.

I don't give layered PSD files... I really don't see the reason for that. If it's a raster job, it only needs to be provided as a tiff or pdf. Why do they need your working files? I provide Vector EPS files where appropriate (all logos, large format, or screen print jobs are produced that way, as a rule), or PDFs for mixed raster and vector work.