Creating multiple pages in Illy w/o plugin

[resdog]

This works if you want to make a document with just a few pages, or you can use layers to make more.

My example is as follows: I have a 7 page document I want to design in Illustrator. Final file will be a pdf multipage document.

Figure out how many pages there will be (in my case, 7). Then figure out the height of the pages (mine are all the same height, 11") Multiply the height by how many "layers" you have (11x7 = 77). Now create a new document that is the same height as you just figured (77"). For my example, my page size was 8.5"x77".

Then go to File >Print.

under the "setup" menu, in the options section, change the "Tiling" to "Tile Full Pages". Then click done.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r95/cklongpayabal/fig1.jpg

Then, under the View Menu, choose "Show Page Tiling" if it isn't already showing.

If you look at your artboard, you should now see little numbers on the left side, and it looks as if the illustrator file has been "chopped in different pages.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r95/cklongpayabal/fig2.jpg

[PrintDriver]

Don't. Just don't.
Your print vendor's page tiling on his particular printer or rip may not match yours. Then he will charge you to take the file apart.
If you are going to do this, and I really don't recommend it, is to use one layer per page. You only make one layer viewable at a time. If you do this, tell he person receiving the file that you did it. Again, there may be a 'file prep' charge to put them into individual files.

If you are using Illy and sending to a print vendor, put each page in its own file or do whatever the print vendor tells you if otherwise.

[resdog]

I'm referring to if you are ending up making a pdf, not sending this file to press.

I agree, this is not a good way to go if you are sending the native file, as printer tiling doesn't match.

BUT, if your end result is a print-ready pdf, why would this NOT work? All of my projects that have followed this spec have always worked, never had a problem at a vendor.

[PrintDriver]

Sorry, I missed the multipage pdf document sentence.

I don't work in pdf. All native.

[hewligan]

I'm not sure why people are always wanting to make multi-page Illustrator documents. I blame Freehand.

[PrintDriver]

^ditto.
But I don't blame Freehand. Not everyone was exposed to that program.

I blame a lot of other things. Inadequate tools, education or time.

[Microswede]

lol, just use InDesign.

[resdog]

Microswede,

So, you're telling me that if I have several vectored logo designs that I want on different pages so I can make a multi-page pdf so clients can see the different logo treatments, that I need to desigin each one in Illustrator, save them individually, and then place them into a multi-page InDesign document??? I'm sorry, but I'd rather do it the fast way than the long way, especially when both accomplish the same result. Your way (do it in InDesign) and my way accomplish the same end result, except mine doesn't take as long as yours. So, I guess the lol is back at ya! :)

Graphic Designers are always striving to do things faster and better. There are always arguments on what program to use to do a project. But that's just it: There isn't just one program to use for a project! Adobe makes their programs for the specific reason that you can do many things in just one. You can design a vectored logo in InDesign or Photoshop or Illustrator! You can rasterize a vectored logo in Photoshop, Illustrator or InDesign! The line that once separated the three programs are becoming blurred with each passing release (Smart Objects, anyone?) as to make it easier to use either program. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've designed a single sided business card in Illustrator, only to have the printer tell me it needed to be in InDesign. So what did I do? I converted the artwork to outlines, saved as an .ai, then placed it into an InDesign document, then saved that and sent it to the printer. To me, that's adding too many steps, but that's what the printer wants, that's what they get.

We need to start adapting to the times, and quit sticking to the "norm." I mean, it wasn't that long ago when someone was saying "Don't use InDesign, it sucks. Use Quark." Boy, has that dichotomy changed. But it took people using InDesign to start that change. And they got spurned for it, too, at first. I know, I was one of them.

So before we get all high and mighty over what we think is right (i.e.-Dreamweaver sucks at designing websites, only use InDesign for multipage projects), just take a step back and look at these programs for what they are: tools for doing a job. It doesn't matter what tools were used, as long as it got the job done. When you see a good looking design, does it say on it "designed using a Mac OS11 w/ Adobe Photoshop for the rasters graphics, Illustrator for the vecotored portions, and Indesign to assemble all the pieces, exported to Adobe Acrobat for printing?" No. In fact, you never really know how a job was done, unless you have first hand knowledge of it.

[YNOT]

I've been using this suggestion for years for almost all of my projects. It's especially helpful doing POP signing and such where the layout basically stays the same, but just a few things change. I can step them off down the pages and add/edit/move things as necessary...then print out for proofing.

NOW...I do however, once the art is all approved and I'm done editing, set each sign up in a separate illy file before releasing art for production.

I use Illy for 90% of what I do. I'm very quick and efficient in it and find it over the top easy for all that I do.

I do agree that there are better software applications for some projects. I use InDesign for any literature...but fortunately for me, the bulk of my work is packaging & POP signing.

[Piscosour]

Microswede,

So, you're telling me that if I have several vectored logo designs that I want on different pages so I can make a multi-page pdf so clients can see the different logo treatments, that I need to desigin each one in Illustrator, save them individually, and then place them into a multi-page InDesign document??? I'm sorry, but I'd rather do it the fast way than the long way, especially when both accomplish the same result. Your way (do it in InDesign) and my way accomplish the same end result, except mine doesn't take as long as yours. So, I guess the lol is back at ya! :)

Graphic Designers are always striving to do things faster and better. There are always arguments on what program to use to do a project. But that's just it: There isn't just one program to use for a project! Adobe makes their programs for the specific reason that you can do many things in just one. You can design a vectored logo in InDesign or Photoshop or Illustrator! You can rasterize a vectored logo in Photoshop, Illustrator or InDesign! The line that once separated the three programs are becoming blurred with each passing release (Smart Objects, anyone?) as to make it easier to use either program. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've designed a single sided business card in Illustrator, only to have the printer tell me it needed to be in InDesign. So what did I do? I converted the artwork to outlines, saved as an .ai, then placed it into an InDesign document, then saved that and sent it to the printer. To me, that's adding too many steps, but that's what the printer wants, that's what they get.

We need to start adapting to the times, and quit sticking to the "norm." I mean, it wasn't that long ago when someone was saying "Don't use InDesign, it sucks. Use Quark." Boy, has that dichotomy changed. But it took people using InDesign to start that change. And they got spurned for it, too, at first. I know, I was one of them.

So before we get all high and mighty over what we think is right (i.e.-Dreamweaver sucks at designing websites, only use InDesign for multipage projects), just take a step back and look at these programs for what they are: tools for doing a job. It doesn't matter what tools were used, as long as it got the job done. When you see a good looking design, does it say on it "designed using a Mac OS11 w/ Adobe Photoshop for the rasters graphics, Illustrator for the vecotored portions, and Indesign to assemble all the pieces, exported to Adobe Acrobat for printing?" No. In fact, you never really know how a job was done, unless you have first hand knowledge of it.That's why I use Coreldraw...

[PrintDriver]

As long as you can do the math on the steps. LOL!

And get it to your printer the way he/she wants it, that's all that really matters.

[urstwile]

Sorry Resdog, but your method just doesn't seem efficient to me. If it works for you, however, then go for it.

Your fit in window must be fun, however. :D

[VLAHAKISA]

I must admit, since I started doing multi-page layouts more recently it's a pain to give an individual file for each page. I did a 16 page brochure recently and having a different file for each page wasn't as efficient as it could have been I feel.

However, at the moment I don't do enough multi-page print layouts and so it's not worth the cost of something like In-design yet when Illustrator files are fine for print layouts.

I've never had a printing firm refuse an Illustrator generated EPS or PDF to print from and insist on Quark or Indesign in four years.

If the time comes that I do loads of multi-page work, I think it is going to be more efficient not to work in Illustrator, but as I hate learning new software, I will avoid that until I have to.

Quite frankly I hate multi-page design work anyway, it's way too tedious for my liking, I felt suicidal by the end of my brochure, but saying that the 16 different page files probably didn't help!

I agree it doesn't matter what tools were used from the clients perspective as long as the end result is good, but it does make a difference to designer efficiency (and hence profit) to be using the most efficient tools for the job.

I do everything in Illustrator and have done for years. I do web graphics, print graphics, logos, print layouts, the lot. If I continue to get multi-page print work I'm going to have to consider something that allows multi-pages as I don't think there is a reliable method of getting multi-pages out of Illustrator after trying very hard one day to achieve that.

I haven't researched In-design much though, can anyone tell me if it has the same capability to create vector graphics that illustrator does? Or would I be designing in illustrator and copy and pasting the pages into In-design? Surely that wouldn't be the case?

What is Coreldraw like? What does this offer?

Thanks

[hewligan]

Indy does have some vector drawing tools, but they are not as extensive as Illy's. Complex artwork is drawn in Illy then place into Indy. What Indy does have, though, is multiple pages and tools for dealing with lots of text.

Coreldraw is sort of like a social disease, only less fun.

[urstwile]

As Hewligan stated, there are some vector things you can do right in InDesign, but it's not meant to be a program like Illustrator, it's meant to be a page layout program. And this comes with all the bells and whistles that a page layout program should come with: style sheets for type and objects, auto page numbering, the ability to deal with transparency, to state just a few.

It's interface is also very similar to Illustrator's, so I suspect if you're used to Illustrator, InDesign will be a snap. I can't imagine doing a 16 page brochure in Illustrator. The inconsistencies in type styling that would have to be dealt with alone is a nightmare, and what about page flow? :eek:

[Ned]

Resdog: I haven't tried your page tiling method (I just use Indy for multi-page, myself), but I'm assuming this will only work only if you use "Print to PDF" or Acrobat Distiller, rather than Save As...PDF?

[budafist]

16 pager in Illy? :eek: I'd tear my hair out after that!

As I and doing more multipage work, I really enjoy laying out publications. I've normally got at least a 30+page job on the go at once. One of the best things about Indy is Paragraph Styles. To those that don't know what these are and are setting up multipage documents, Paragraph styles are a godsend.

[urstwile]

Paragraph styles are a godsend.
Indeed.

[VLAHAKISA]

You know what I ended up doing?

I put all 16 pages on one Illustrator page so that I could see what they all looked like together and make sure the images and style flowed nicely from page to page, and then put them in their own individual files once they were all done like that. Fussy eh.

So I did like a fake multipage file on one Illustrator file, and then seperated them at the end into 16 seperate pages. This sort of made it a reasonably efficient process but saving each individual page was a bit of a pain, especially as due to high resolution photos the save time wasn't that fast.

Well if I get much more brochure work I'll be getting In-design because Illustrator isn't so hot with the text I'll agree.

My other question about In-design though is about showing the client the pages. I guess it produces multi-page PDFs yes? For them to sign off the design with after viewing.

What do you send the printing firm when you use In-design, do nearly all print firms take In-design files? or do you send them a multi page PDF from the In-design software? Can they print from a multi page PDF?

[Ned]

Yeah, I usually send a multi-page PDF, but always ask your printer what they prefer. Most printers can print off a multi-page, but some will require you to seperate into individual pages. For sure, not all printers can take INDD files, or would have version limits if they do. A PDF can be read by anyone.

As for sending to the client, if you do that by email, then just export a web-quality proof for them to view and sign off on. Just make sure they know that it's a web proof, and not printable product or somewhere along the line, that file will find its way where it's not supposed to be..

[PrintDriver]

Just make sure they know that it's a web proof, and not printable product or somewhere along the line, that file will find its way where it's not supposed to be..

^that's no joke. It happens a lot.:rolleyes:

[Ned]

Another thing I do, is anything that's not print quality, is labelled in the filename with large capital letters stating, PROOF. ;)

[PrintDriver]

It helps to put it in a Slug too.
A tech on no sleep may miss the all cap filename. Everybody thinks their filenames are so important they should be shouted. After a while, you tune out.

[VLAHAKISA]

I always send them a printable proof also because I want them to check they are happy with it properly before it goes to the print firm - often things look a bit different when printed than they do in web quality.

I urge them to print in 'best quality' to get a feel for how the file will print when the printing firm receive it and do their own proof for the client.

I advise them that the file I show them for approval purposes is not to be sent to the printing firm, that they must receive 'final files' from me for that purpose. The only difference being that my final files have the text as outlines rather than a font. If they send the wrong one after I've told them not to, I'm not liable as they were warned.

So far using this method the wrong files have not been sent to the printing firm at all.

[Ned]

I urge them to print in 'best quality' to get a feel for how the file will print when the printing firm receive it and do their own proof for the client.

Now that's something I would never do. Ask the client to print a hardcopy themselves!? That's only asking for trouble...

Most print clients end up with all sorts of hard proofs, from my own printer, from the real printer, etc., before all is done, but I would never have them print it out - or certainly would never suggest it to them!

[VLAHAKISA]

Really? Why not? It's safe to do so as long as you are careful of the hazards it can present.

I've never experienced any issues with it in over three years since we've been offering layout design as a service.

I believe I've never had issue because I always take great care to tell them immediately at quote stage that whilst they can print out their file to get an idea of colours from a CMYK print ready file that their office printer is not the same as the professional printing machine.

I advise that when they have CMYK printing carried out by a printing firm (most of my clients go for CMYK) the machine itself, the heat at the time of press, paper type and the laminating process if applicable can alter the colours and that they cannot guarantee their colours unless they want to go the Pantone route and physically select them off a colour chart right in the printing shop to guarantee their colours.

If you make sure they are told off the bat that they cannot guarantee CMYK colours will be consistent from printer to printer, you cannot get into trouble. They were warned.

I have a whole web page dedicated to this issue of colour selection that I send my clients to read and it's in every single layout design quotation to make sure that when they 'accept the quotation' they are also accepting this advice re print colours at the same time as part of the terms and conditions of the project proceeding.

It's taken me 5 years to fine tune my terms and conditions and quote procedures, and believe me they are pretty much water tight, I haven't had a client problem or even the remotest grumble in about four years and get a lot of repeat business and referrals as a result.

Not to say I won't experience an issue or complaint one day as you can't ever guarantee that, but my clients are well informed on every single tiny point the second they get in touch for their quotation to reduce the chances of complaints and it works.

I always tell them 'this is boring, but you absolutely for your own sake must read'

To be honest I've found that when you print out a cmyk from your own machine, and then a print firm does it from their machine, it's usually pretty much exactly the same, but I would never guarantee that to a client obviously. But that's why I like them to print it, because I know it's going to come out pretty much the same, and if they are happy with their proof, they will be happy with the print firm proof.

[VLAHAKISA]

I think it's a good idea to fully educate clients and make them understand that it's important that they learn the things you want them to learn.

That way it makes them much easier to work with in the future and hence future projects before faster and thus more profitable :)

[Ned]

Honestly, my clients don't want to be designers, they just want the job done quick, and out of the way. They would never stop to read a web page on color issues or listen to me ramble on about it. I mean, it's a nice ideal, but...

I commend you on your hard work you put in with your clients, but I just don't get that much contact with mine...

[VLAHAKISA]

Oh I talk to mine a lot, and often because we talk so much I find them asking my advice on other business issues such as things like;

- where can I get my hosting?
- what do you think of these domains I'm thinking of buying?
- where can I get an office address?
- how do I market my website (when I'm doing front end web design)

...the list goes on and I don't mind answering their questions because I find that the more you talk to the client and build a good relationship, the more that client comes back and they refer you also and so it's worth the time investment. I think of it as 'marketing' and customer relations rather than a waste of my time.

One of my clients sent me a lovely expensive Christmas gift this year because we have developed such a good working relationship (thank goodness I'd already send them their expensive gift also).

I have a good relationship with many of my clients to the extent that they ask after my children (I have two little 'uns :)) and we talk about things other than work such as our recent holidays and what not.

I enjoy being able to be friendly with my clients in this way as I'm quite a people person, and doing so also fosters an ongoing relationship which is financially beneficial to me.

It's a lot more cost effective to get more project work out of existing client relationships than spend more time/money on trying to win new clients.

Hence it's a well known marketing tactic for the big brands (and really any business person also) to try their upmost to foster relationships with their customers and keep them coming back as customers.

Keep the existing customers by making them feel they have a relationship with you that they don't want to break, and keep them loyal to you as a designer, whilst slowly adding to the customer base with new customers that you then also make a effort to retain: customer retention.

[Ned]

It's a lot more cost effective to get more project work out of existing client relationships than spend more time/money on trying to win new clients.

Amen to that...

But certainly you only have time to properly educate certain clients...? What about your dealings with the "flunkys" in the company, and what about all the people along the production lines that you never meet or talk to? Not everybody has that kind of veseted interest in their company that they can tear themselves away from their own job to learn about yours. If they own the company, then that's another story... If they're just a manager, and they're getting paid to get this job done, that's the kind of production they're expecting out of you. You're the expert, not them, right? That's why many people outsource their work... They are looking to dump it off on a professional who knows what they're doing, because they're smart enough to know that this is out of their field (the best business people may know nothing about their business, to start with, but know how to hire the right professionals to do the right job).

I expect my work to pass through many unable hands, and half of these people I'll never meet or see in my life. That's why I prepare my files for the uneducated, not for the educated. You'd be surprised just how much of what you tell your client really goes in one ear and out the other. You may think they've been educated, but really they're just as clueless, because they used to dealing maybe in dollars and cents, or with other factors, and that's all they see. Their job is different, and they may be very good at their job, but it's impossible to give them the background in the printing industry to make them aware of all the issues that are at hand. It took years and years of experience to get us to where we are, knowing what we know. Remember when you came out of school, how little you REALLY knew about the industry - after supposedly learning all about it for however many years? That's what I mean when I say to expect the worse out of a client! They simply don't have the background and experience...

[VLAHAKISA]

99% of the time my clients are small business owners and so I'm almost always communicating with the business owner only and thus it's a good idea for me to make sure they are educated about certain facets of the process.

I understand they hire you for the expertise, but you can't always do everything for them. For instance I don't see my clients face to face as non of my clients live in my area, and some even live in other countries.

This means that choosing print colours for them is impossible as I can't sit down with them with print colour charts, they have to do this themselves with the printing firm if they want to choose Pantone shades, and so that is one thing they can't leave in my hands.

I feel it's important that they know what they are doing before they get to the printing firm as I don't like to trust that the printing firm is as careful as myself in ensuring the client doesn't make any errors they will regret. Not all firms are as ethical. So I like them at least basically educated before they talk to the printing firm.

Personally I feel that as the owner of the business they should be making those type of choices themselves anyway. You can't leave colour choices completely up to the designer, you have to have some imput in what you want for your business if you are the owner.

If they don't at least understand that there is a difference between hex colours, CMYK colours, and Pantone colours before they hit the printing shop, I think this is a recipe for disaster.

I can't trust that the printing firm is going to make them understand there is a colour difference between the design they've been looking at on their pc screen and the design that will actually print out.

This really is the most important thing I want them to understand that the web colour they choose for their design, is not the same colour that they will be then choosing for their print designs - they need to use a different system and understand the ways in which they can try and match up the colours.

[resdog]

Resdog: I haven't tried your page tiling method (I just use Indy for multi-page, myself), but I'm assuming this will only work only if you use "Print to PDF" or Acrobat Distiller, rather than Save As...PDF?

That's right, it only works if you Print to PDF. If you just save, it will save to document size.

Just a little disclaimer: For my multi-page products where styles come in handy, I use InDesign. But, I do my web mock-ups (multi-page), business cards (double sided), flyers (2 sided), etc. in Illustrator (using the multiple pages print), as it is much faster because the majority of these are vectored, and it's an extra step to save as eps and place in an InDesign page. If you don't want to use the little shortcut that I found, you don't have to use it. But as it saves me time, I figured I would share it and maybe saver other people time.