What do do when your client likes crap...

[M @]

My "client" in this case, my boss, has asked me to add some features to our website. He wants to create a news page on our website and put some sort of notification on our homepage that will attract people's attention to it. I designed several medallion-type objects that could be placed throughout the page to do this. After reviewing them he says "I don't like those. They look like a ribbon you get from the state fair. Can you just put a black triangle or circle?"

So what do you do when your clients want you to create something that you know will look hideous? Do you do your best to make their idiot idea work, or do you spend that energy trying to impress upon them how your idea is better?

[hewligan]

I have a two step process for dealing with this kind of thing.

1) I attempt to explain clearly and politely why what they're suggesting is not, actually, a very good idea, and that perhaps it would be better to try something else.

2) When they ignore step 1, I give them the crap they asked for. What the hell, they're paying the bills.

Some might say that, given the frequency with which people actual listen to a polite explanation of why they're wrong, that step 1 is actually redundant. And that's a very good point, but it makes me feel better :D

[budafist]

I try and make it work. If I try and convince them otherwise, I'd spend all my time talking and have no time to get work done.

I've done work I'm not proud of, but that's just the way it is with some people.

[Virgo Nightingale]

If a client wants something really bad, I gently try to persuade them to try something that will look better, but if they really want it, I do exactly what they ask, but make no attempt whatsoever to make it look good. I'll actually do whatever I can to make it look even worse. That way, perhaps, they will think "Good lord! That DOES look like crap. I think I'll go with her original suggestion."

[DesignStudio]

I don't know that it could be said alot better than hewligan's two step process. Some things just don't make it in your portfolio. I would say that for me it's more of a three step process though:

1. try to explain why their idea isn't going to work (and that yes you know from experience, and that's why they hired you).

2. if step one fails, analyze whether or not you are filthy rich and don't need their stinking money or referrals. if this is the case, then call them a closed-minded idiot and tell them to get lost. if this is not the case, and you still have bills to pay and would like their money, then proceed to step three.

3. shut your pie-hole, do the work, allow it to look like crap and don't beat yourself up when it does. a pig in makeup is still a pig, there's nothing you can do. don't put the piece in your portfolio, cash their check, and move on.

and by-the-by, i've never got stuck on step two. maybe someday.

you have to keep in mind that part of a successful design is how pleased the client is with it. Obviously it's nice if it functions well for them too, and their bad idea may not. but sometimes you have to let them learn that lesson themeselves. that's just how people are. But a happy client who got what they asked for and eventually realizes that you were right, is likely to come back to you to fix it, and refer you to others. If you stick to your guns and refuse to do work that you don't think is good, they'll never have the opportunity to find out they were wrong, and you walk away looking like a stubborn elitist who looks down on them. Kiss them and their money goodbye.

[TR1]

I agree with the other posters, try to convince them your right, but in thye end they are paying the bills and give them what they want. Thats why some of the stuff i my portfolio is the initial concept work and not the finished item.

[DesignStudio]

by the way M, i didn't mean that "shut your pie hole" in step three directed at you, like the specific "you", it was more the collective "you", like that's what I do. sounded kind of mean when i read it, but the edit button is gone. I didn't mean it mean if that's how it sounds.

TR1 raises a really good point too, that you can always put the comp work or different version of the design in your portfolio, it's still your work. Most of us have probably done this, thanks TR1 for mentioning it.

[M @]

Thanks for the input, guys. To me it seems that our job is giving out clients what they want. If they ask us for something that we think they shouldn't want then it is our job to give it to them but make it look as good as possible. I just don't like doing that;)

[reuber1]

Funny when clients hire designers to give them a design, and suddenly they start telling you exactly how they think it should look. Really, you wonder if they just want the people who know the software just to get it done; certainly explains all the spec going round (well sort of, you know).

[DesignStudio]

It is odd. Sometimes I've wanted to tell a client, "you know it would be cheaper for you to just buy the software since you know exactly what you want".

It would be like if you hired an interior designer to do the inside of your house, but didn't let him make a single decision or listen to any of his input. What's the point. In that case you needed a construction worker, not an interior designer. The problem is, in our fields, we're the interior designer and the construction worker. That analogy might not make any sense, but it did in my head so i'm sticking with it.

[frankster]

You have to give them a break really. After all it is usually small business owners that get all designer on you and the reason I think is because with all the stress and hard work that goes into running a small business (whatever that business is) choosing what colours and what you want to go where for your promotional material must be one of the most fun parts for a lot of people. They just don't have the time to put into learning the software to do it themselves or creating it even if they did already know how. Yes, these types of clients are annoying to a proffessional designer, but you have to understand why most of them do it. It's like going out and choosing the clothes you are going to buy to put your baby in for them I suppose. They don't want someone else making the majority of the decisions, even if that person has better taste. So, thier finished work won't be as effective as if they had taken your advice, but that's thier problem, especially if you have taken the time to explain that to them gently before hand. I've been lucky and not had a bad experience in a while though, but I'm sure I'll get all narky like the rest of you when one inevitably turns up on my doorstep again.

[DesignStudio]

I can't believe you just jinxed yourself like that frankster. i hope you at least knocked on wood when you said it.

[The_Detailer]

You have to give them a break really. After all it is usually small business owners that get all designer on you and the reason I think is because with all the stress and hard work that goes into running a small business (whatever that business is) choosing what colours and what you want to go where for your promotional material must be one of the most fun parts for a lot of people. They just don't have the time to put into learning the software to do it themselves or creating it even if they did already know how. Yes, these types of clients are annoying to a proffessional designer, but you have to understand why most of them do it. It's like going out and choosing the clothes you are going to buy to put your baby in for them I suppose. They don't want someone else making the majority of the decisions, even if that person has better taste. So, thier finished work won't be as effective as if they had taken your advice, but that's thier problem, especially if you have taken the time to explain that to them gently before hand. I've been lucky and not had a bad experience in a while though, but I'm sure I'll get all narky like the rest of you when one inevitably turns up on my doorstep again.

That is exactly it Frankster!
I posted a request in the classified's section this morning (its not shown up yet) but its requesting a little help/guidance as I cannot learn how to use all the software as well as run my business and keep my accounts up to date.
I started using DW 9 and got the initial layout I wanted but to fine tune the CSS and Javascript is beyond me.
Also my logo is ok, but not great as I didnt have a clue how to use Illustrator CS2 before I attempted it.
I also want to incorporate a basket and I already have the basket images placed on my website but I wouldnt know where to start with the back end which makes the thing work and I really dont have the time to start trying to figure that out.

Basically I can get the layout and structure I want with my limited skills, but somethings are just better off left to the pro's.

I would love to be able to do it all myself as I really get into it and have found myself sat here till 3/4am trying to get my layout and pictures sorted many a night.

So you are correct, I only really want someone who can operate the software. Some critisms & suggestions would be great as i like to always keep open minded.

P.s Who do I contact about my post in the classified's section? I posted it 11ish this morning and it still is not showing. Thanks

[DesignStudio]

detailer, it's an all volunteer forum, so sometimes you just have to give it a little time. they usually go up within the same day.

[The_Detailer]

Thanks DesignStudio, will try not to be so impatient next time

[DesignStudio]

no i understand, i posted a classified ad too and kept checking for when it would be up. with the internet we're used to everything being instant. the trade off here is that it takes a bit longer, but you get the human interaction and screening to make sure we don't end up with pages and pages of spam and scam emails like on craigslist or some other online forums. if it doesn't come within a day then maybe email someone. i'm not sure who's the head honcho, but anyone who's name is in bold green should be able to help.

[The_Detailer]

Much appreciated DS.........Cheers

[budafist]

I guess then the problem is that we are creatives vs. software operators.

Many clients come with an idea in their head and they just want us to execute it as a software operator. They don't want your creative 2 cents.

Should this software operator called something different to avoid confusion? I guess this is what a Mac Operator does.

When we call ourselves designers, we feel let down when we are not utilised as creatives and only as operators or construction workers.

[DesignStudio]

thanks for helping keep my anaolgy alive buda. i knew someone would get it out there.

i have a question for you though, I don't understand why it takes your bunny two jumps to get where he's going when he goes right to left, but only one jump when he goes left to right? What's up with that?

[budafist]

Easy, he's right handed.

[Riya]

Hehe... I deal with this about every other day. When they want something that is going to look bad, I tell them that we can do it, but I would advise against it because of whatever reason. I try to throw in a few technical terms (but not anything they aren't going to understand, things like focal points, contrast etc.) to kind of give them a subtle reminder that I am a professional and I know what I am doing. Then I tell them that the decision really is up to them. That last part really is important, especially with the small business types mentioned earlier.
Most of the time, they take my advise, but not always. But you know what, after a couple dozen times, it doesn't bother you as much anymore. You just do it to the best of your abilities then move on to the next project. And remember: You aren't paying for it, and it's not going on your wall.

[ronaldesign]

First of all, We should rethink is our Clien are "kings" and we should serve them whatever they want? or are we so desperate for money so that we didn't care enough bout our dignity as a designer.

Clients looks us for our professionally thoughts and solution, that mean they dont know a shit about design. maybe if you got a concept for the ribbon thing and as you explained it to him, maybe he would think the same. dont just agree to him, but try to persuade him the good of your design.

once again, client is not our "king" but our partners for their bussiness, of course you dont want your partner look terrible right?

[DesignStudio]

that doesn't even make sense. he's using his legs in parrallel. on closer inspection i've noticed it's all in the turn. the turn on the right is a hop/turn exactly in place, where the turn on the left is a pivot/turn on his hind legs. mystery solved.

[urstwile]

Oh my god, DS, I noticed that as well, but couldn't figure out how to put it in English. Either great minds thinking alike, or fools seldom differing, but I stared at the bunny for a good three minutes after your initial comment trying to figure it out.

[urstwile]

First of all, We should rethink is our Clien are "kings" and we should serve them whatever they want? or are we so desperate for money so that we didn't care enough bout our dignity as a designer.

Clients looks us for our professionally thoughts and solution, that mean they dont know a shit about design. maybe if you got a concept for the ribbon thing and as you explained it to him, maybe he would think the same. dont just agree to him, but try to persuade him the good of your design.

once again, client is not our "king" but our partners for their bussiness, of course you dont want your partner look terrible right?
That seems to be a bit of a blanket statement, ronalddesign. To assume that all clients know nothing about design seems an overgeneralization to me, and to assign them the role of partners, well, perhaps in the best of all possible worlds, yeah, maybe, but in the reality of the thing, it's more like stockholders in a corporation, and they hold more of the shares, since they're paying for the work. So they definitely have a say.

Advice to clients is a part of what we do. Hopefully it works out that they take us seriously enough to listen to the advice we give, but ultimately, they're signing the checks, which pretty much rules them out as partners. At least the way I understand it. If you don't want them to have any feedback, or limited feedback, that's going to have to remain a personal choice as to whether or not you want to work with them. But they're buttering your bread, so to speak. So the choice is going to be based on that, I think.

[budafist]

You 2 are hilarious. Taking the bunny far too seriously! Bunnies don't know about logic or mathematic equations. They just hop 2 and fro. Maybe he just feels like mixing it up.

[frankster]

Advice to clients is a part of what we do. Hopefully it works out that they take us seriously enough to listen to the advice we give, but ultimately, they're signing the checks, which pretty much rules them out as partners.

RAmen!

May Ronaldesign be touched by your noodly appendage.

[urstwile]

Teehee Frankster. :D

Sadly, I tried to add that to my member designation, but it was much too long, and truncation didn't do it any justice. :)

[Riya]

^ that's what sigs are for urst.

[urstwile]

Yeah, I know, but I like to multitask. :rolleyes:

[Riya]

Huh?

[InChorus Marketing]

Although, I do agree that the "cashing the check" approach to this is good in some cases, but I just got caught in this same situation this week, where a client was running for a local office and wanted me to do campaign signage for him. Let's just put it this way...can you say "Microsoft Word Art?" I refused to do the project in this case, as the signage would be up all over the city, and if someone asked him who designed it, I would not own up to it. He took his business somewhere else, and I think I was the better for it. Nothing like showcasing horrible artwork on billboard signage all over town. Yikes!

Coming from a Brand Marketer, I think you may also want to consider your artistic integrity in some cases, as you never know when that "pig in makeup" piece might surface someday.

[Crimson]

What happens when your client's check bounces like the bunny. Then you can tell them off like step 2?

It's the nature of the beast. Sometimes you are a designer, sometimes your a turd polisher. Many cases it is a mixture of both.

Balance is key

[budafist]

What happens when your client's check bounces like the bunny. Then you can tell them off like step 2?

I don't accept cheques...

[DesignStudio]

If their check bounced I'd charge another fee. I guess that's something else for the old contract...

by the way. turd polisher cracked me up. heard it before, but something about the phrase and the fact that i've been drinking made me laugh.