Yet another submission for Clientcopia

[JaCkinbOx]

I was pursuing a gig I found online for photo retouching, but it turns out the bloke's a cheapskate. In respect to the forum rules, I'm omitting my quoted rates, but leaving the ones he went for with some other blokes (which is unbelievably cheap). If I'm making a forum faux pas by doing that, I apologize; I'll make sure I don't do it again. It's just that the amount is so unbelievably low. (I'm charging in the range of the industry standard -- I checked. Neither high nor low; pretty much average when you're dealing with real professionals. This is for high-end photo retouching.)

Anyway, he emails me back:

The Photographer
HI [myself],

Sorry, it was a busy day for me and lots of emails to send out (19 so far).

Currently we have settled on 3 new artists will bring this down to 2 after this week, however unfortunate to say that I could not include in on the current set.

I would however like to hold my options open pending what the results of some real work brings out of those 3 I have decided on yesterday.

Primary factor thus far had been cost, about 80% or respondents providing samples were $15 or below for such work, the 3 that I have chosen so far are priced from $5 - $10 which falls in line with my current artists.

Given the fact that all this is out of pocket to me, you can understand my choices thus far.

However as indicated I may very well have to adjust any decisions made if final results do not hold up.

It should be noted also that only 1 of the 3 is located in N.A. which of course is reflective of costs.

Best Regards,

The Photographer

---

Normally, I ignore that sort of talk and move on, but I thought this bloke needs something to think about -- the vast majority of employers from this source don't have a good attitude about hiring talent.

So my reply:

Myself
The Photographer,

That's fine. When you're ready to upgrade to a real professional, let me know. Those are Indian/high schooler prices that the three you've selected are charging. I know how it is to have to pay for things out of pocket, but when something's important to me and I recognize real talent, I'm willing to lower my standard of living for a little while so that I can afford the fair value of a real professional... whether the person I'm hiring realizes his worth or not.

Good luck, though. I hope that works out for you.

Thanks.

Myself

---

So yeah. Was I too harsh?

[JaCkinbOx]

http://clientcopia.com/quotes.php?id=5277
The clientcopia submission, btw.

[budafist]

I don't think it was too harsh. I think it was right on the money.

[JaCkinbOx]

Oho! There's more!

He responds:

The Photographer
Hi [myself],

Not sure why you would take on such a tone and to then go and malign a group of individuals whom have nothing to do with any of this.

Your assumptions are very wrong, however if a sign of a true professional is based on their geo local then we certainly have not come far in society or their still needs to be more open education.

It is enlightening your reply and shows me the character of the person you may very well be.

I have not objections to you being disappointed in not getting the gig for $
per image but I can assure you or even offer you proof that 7 of 11 artists that completed the same images you did, provided a much better work sample (no debris on the Plexiglas, better skin tone control etc.).

My other 3 artist whom have worked with me for as short as 1 year and as long as 4 made the choices for me not having any information pertinent to cost etc. They chose 4, I narrowed it to 3 and will decide after this week.

Deeply sadden that you choose to attack people, none of which even were part of any submissions received.

Just for the record, I am a black Canadian/Jamaican, married to a mixed Indian/Jamaican with a successful Network Engineer Business here in Toronto and all my staff is Caucasian in skin colour, none of my current PS artists are anything close to your assumption and my 2 illustrators are from Spain. Current group selected (1 – USA, 1-Brit and the other from Macedonia – yep the 2 that are not from N.A.).

Best Regards,

The Photographer (Irish Decent)

---
Hey, I gotta follow up.

Myself
The Photographer,

The main reason I responded, in the first place, was definitely not to pick on what the artists you're planning on working with are charging, but rather that you're fine with what is effectively exploitation. The fair market value (at least in North America and most of Europe), is around about $[industry standard rate]/image [i]or better for this sort of work, and that is precisely the range I asked for. I have no interest in selling out to people who are not willing to make a few sacrifices to afford good work. If you don't like my work, that's fine, but it should be about that and not about the money (which is in the range of the fair market value). I thought it was very good and did exactly what you asked for -- if you want more than that then you need to specify it in your instructions. It's generous for me to do comp work instead of just trusting you to rely on my portfolio examples alone.

If you're going to decline someone's work, usually the "professional" response would be to say something like (in this case), "I'm afraid you're out of my price range, and don't seem to have quite the style we're looking for" -- not replying with what someone else is charging (a painfully miniscule amount) as if to say "will you work for peanuts?"

"Your assumptions are very wrong, however if a sign of a true professional is based on their geo local then we certainly have not come far in society or their still needs to be more open education."

If that had been my assumption, yes; I would have been wrong. However, it should be obvious that I am attacking the prices that you're paying, not the people that are charging them. By "real professional" I don't think a person's geographic location has anything to do with it. By "Indian/high schooler", I'm obviously meaning prices that would seem fair to either individuals (professionals or no) living in India or in another developing country where such amounts go further, or those who are rank beginners and cannot expect more. Your assumptions that my comments are due to xenophobic beliefs or naïvete is actually quite insulting. I am deeply saddened, myself, that you would choose to attack me on my comments on an assumption that I was being racist or nationalistic. It's obvious that our expectations on comp work and what a sample should be are quite different, and so therefore we are evidently not a good match. I have too many of my own projects to worry about, myself. As far as the people you hired, I congratulate them for being able to keep their costs down so low. I hope that, soon, they will learn the fair market value of such services in Toronto, and charge accordingly. They must be supplying power to their computers by pedaling a stationary bicycle, living off such royal compensation.

"Just for the record, I am a black Canadian/Jamaican, married to a mixed Indian/Jamaican with a successful Network Engineer Business here in Toronto and all my staff is Caucasian in skin colour, none of my current PS artists are anything close to your assumption and my 2 illustrators are from Spain. Current group selected (1 – USA, 1-Brit and the other from Macedonia – yep the 2 that are not from N.A.)."

Okay. And? I didn't know we were discussing ethnicities or skin colors. Frankly, that subject is quite boring, except as it relates to relative need for sun protection. My wife is of mostly Sephardic Jewish descent and I have quite a bit of both Native American and Scottish/German in myself, as knowing relative ethnicities seems to be important to you. I really don't see how ethnicity/skin color applies to business. As far as geographic location, I know what makes sense for where I live. Your assumption that I should mean anything more are actually quite humorous, if you should know me personally, as I am a long-time supporter of global entrepreneurship and e-commerce.

That you should even bring up that you have a "successful Network Engineer Business" only adds to my suspicion that you're exploitive. Before, you made it out to sound like you aren't very wealthy and can only pay what a starting amateur photographer could afford. Now you make yourself sound bigger, and I find that ironic. Either you're using people or you have quite the Freudian complex.

I am so sick of employers manipulating people on [online community] by basically instigating a bidding war, picking the lowest common denominator, basing choices on price instead of relationship, and mistaking what they can pay for what they should pay, and asking for artists to guess what the client wants without giving clear instructions and parameters. It's really hurtful to the artistic community to turn [online community] into a Wal-Mart for artistic talent. I don't know if you have Wal-Marts in Toronto, but they are the exploitative discount department store infamous in America and abroad.

Good day, Mr. The Photographer.

[myself]

---

By the way, this guy has never spelled my name correctly, and it's on every single signature...

[budafist]

Goodness, that's an essay...How long are you spending on these replies?

[JaCkinbOx]

Too long.

[frankster]

Don't let it give you a seizure mate.

[Jackimalyn]

They must be supplying power to their computers by pedaling a stationary bicycle, living off such royal compensation.

lmao!

[Mynock]

If he's paying out of pocket for this job where does he normally pay out of? His @$$?

[Typically]

the magic money tree of course! don't you guys have them in your backyard?

[Kool]

Wow!

Am I correct in understanding a little spec work was involved in this?

[MikeTheVike]

I'm with you, but you probably should have left out the word "Indian" when describing the cheap rates.

[CamarotaDesign]

^ I agree with mike. Most people don't really know that designers/creatives in other country's in india and china are undercutting us because the standard of living there is low enough that the cheap rates they
charge still give them a great profit.

[CamarotaDesign]

not to say you are wrong, because the guy is a moron, especially to launch into a debate of race and ethics, seriously, what a waste of time.

[Jackimalyn]

not to say you are wrong, because the guy is a moron, especially to launch into a debate of race and ethics, seriously, what a waste of time.

Come on! the gun control controversy thread died quicker than expected. I need a juicy ethical debate to keep me from work.

[LeftBrain Artist]

the magic money tree of course! don't you guys have them in your backyard?

Right next to the change bush.

[Drorain]

little bored are we?

I lolled, it was a fun exchange

[Typically]

ahhhh see i have the change bushes up in the front yard. all the clanking and random light when the sun them is just to distracting. the money tree on the other hand creates a nice cooling shaded area where i lay in a kiddie pool full of rainbow sherbet color correcting photos for really cheap.

[CamarotaDesign]

little bored are we?

I lolled, it was a fun exchange

and I roffled.

[LeftBrain Artist]

ahhhh see i have the change bushes up in the front yard. all the clanking and random light when the sun them is just to distracting. the money tree on the other hand creates a nice cooling shaded area where i lay in a kiddie pool full of rainbow sherbet color correcting photos for really cheap.

My change bushes are shade-lovers - too much sun will tarnish the silver.

I wonder. Does corporate culture realize that as they outsource labor overseas to cheap markets, they take away jobs from Americans. And who buys all these wonderful, economical products and services that come from overseas - the American consumers by and large. Yes, its a no-brainer from a corporate standpoint to outsource - short term (I'm talking 1-5 years) - but from a long term standpoint - once the American consumers' international credit is shot, who is going to buy all the stuff? The CEOs and billionaires of the world? I think not.

Robble robble robble!

[budafist]

Does corporate culture realize that as they outsource labor overseas to cheap markets, they take away jobs from Americans.

When you buy products made in other countries you do the same. As a consumer, you have the choice to shop around.

Sorry, I'm in a country that is generally cheaper than the US for labour.

[CatintheHat1]

Hey, that's your post? I swear I just came from reading it on Clientcopia (the first one, anyway). Cool.

My recent response to the "design a book cover for US $45" was:

Yes, I understand that people overseas can work for very little money because their standard of living is a mere fraction of ours. What I don't understand is how they can still manage to purchase the legal licenses to use the software, fonts and images they're providing you, as I'm sure those cost the same (several $1000) everywhere.

Let them think about that.