You have Photoshop Version What????!!!

[resdog]

OK, so I'm doing this business card design, and the printer has told me that they NEED the file as a psd document. Well, I have Photoshop CS3, and I design my stuff using Layer Sets (for organizational purposes). So I save the psd file and send it to them. They tell me, "We're getting a layer error when we try to open it." So I ask them what version of Photoshop they were using. Their response? Photoshop 6.0!

How do you REQUIRE someone to send in a format for a program that you have an antique version of!? I could at least understand if they had CS2 or even CS, but if you are a printer, you should have at least two versions below the current release, right???Especially if you are requiring it! Ack!

[Virgo Nightingale]

Or in the very least, when they give you their specs they should say ".psd file version 6 or below" instead of just ".psd file" so you can save accordingly before you send it.

[LeftBrain Artist]

How do you REQUIRE someone to send in a format for a program that you have an antique version of!?

Ah! You must have missed my rant where the printer required an eps file. I gave them a flattened photoshop eps - from CS 1.

They asked me to resend with the fonts converted to outlines - I embedded the raster file and exported to Illustrator eps v.8 as per their request - that solved the problem. Obviously they only had Illustrator v.8 for setting up their print jobs - I can see how that decision came about. "Hey Frank, I've got Photoshop 4 and Illustrator 8, I'll give 'em to you for $10 apiece or both of them for $15. Whaddya say?"

"Sorry Fred, I run a business, not a charity organization, I'll just take Illustrator, what kind of payment plans do you offer?"

[LeftBrain Artist]

By the way, a TRUE professional keeps copies of every software program ever purchased on archive and available for use in just such an emergency.

[Jackimalyn]

^^but you dont need old versions to save as version 6 from cs3

[Craig B]

Version 6 ... are you serious??! Photoshop 7 came out in Spring of 2002 ... you'd think they could have upgraded sometime in the past 5 years.

Hopefully you got a great deal from them, because they're obviously not charging enough to keep their software more up to date.

[PrintDriver]

I can't afford printers like that.
Which is why I approach new vendors very cautiously.

You're hosed though if the client sends you there, I suppose.
Uh, you can save down in Photoshop?

[carter the artist]

In my experience as a printer, I realized that if you want to stay competitive you need to stay up to date on the software. The problem is that the other companies (RIPS and whatnot) do a poor job of updating the postscript and whatnot so that the printers figure that instead of trying to jump all the hoops to keep up with the tools the designers have, they would rather find a system that works and stick to it. More than likely the printer you went to is a small printer.

[jimking]

You would be amazed at what a simple upgrade can to to a printer's $100,000. workflow. It can be crazy and ridiculous to the point of stupid. However, PS6 or any version of PS can be upgraded and work with a new or old workflow. The only problem would be flows excepting psd files opposed to just eps files as Carter mentioned. Offset printers are taking a big giant hit, the equipment is very expensive. A 29" 5 color press can cost upwards to $1,000,000., digital presses are easily a half a million and this is just hardware. At the same time the quality has dropped in printing and with it the demand for downright dirt prices. In my area the herd is getting thinned out. Offset printing is tanking.

[CamarotaDesign]

Ugh... I used a printer last week... Illustrator 8.0. . . . Are you pancaking kidding me?!!!!

[carter the artist]

Illustrator 8, is a favorite of printers. Since it was shortly thereafter all the great effects, transparencies and such came into play. The truth is that they need to learn how to use the newer programs, or else they will begin to lose the higher paying clients. If they just want to stick with the small shop retails however, they are fine.

[reuber1]

I only have Illustrator 8 at work. :(

[MD]

I think the common factor that links all of the versions mentioned (Illustrator 8.0 Photoshop 6.0) Is these were among the last versions available that still ran under OS 9.x

Making the jump to OS X was a pain in the ass because a lot of your old equipment just didn't work. Printers & scanners lacked drivers and most just discontinued support for them. It was a significant investment to upgrade. Maybe it was the lack of SCSI and the phone wire apple talk network that turned them off :D

[resdog]

You can't "save down" to Photoshop legacy formats. At least, not that I know of. The problem comes into play that Photoshop new features (namely layer sets for me) aren't compatible with older versions (7 and lower?) so I had to move all the layers out of the layer set and delete the layer set folder. Normally, I have workflow that follows: Illustrator and Photoshop files get brought into Indesign and all typesetting done there. Then, I export to hi-res pdf (or make .ps file) and send to printer. This printer SPECIFICALLY requires .psd files. I only went to this printer because my client is "best buds" with the owner and that's where they wanted the print job done. Only going to be working with the printer for this client, so luckily it won't have to deal with this on a day-to-day basis.

[Virgo Nightingale]

I hope you're charging a little extra for the sheer annoyance of having to take all those extra steps to make these files acceptable for a printer you didn't choose to work with.

[Ned]

You can't "save down" to Photoshop legacy formats. At least, not that I know of. The problem comes into play that Photoshop new features (namely layer sets for me) aren't compatible with older versions (7 and lower?) so I had to move all the layers out of the layer set and delete the layer set folder. Normally, I have workflow that follows: Illustrator and Photoshop files get brought into Indesign and all typesetting done there. Then, I export to hi-res pdf (or make .ps file) and send to printer. This printer SPECIFICALLY requires .psd files. I only went to this printer because my client is "best buds" with the owner and that's where they wanted the print job done. Only going to be working with the printer for this client, so luckily it won't have to deal with this on a day-to-day basis.

I don't get it. Photoshop is stricly raster. If you have editible text, it's rasterized in Photoshop anyways. PS6 was the first version to even have any kind of editable text. Before that, you typed it, and that's the last you could change it, because it was immediately rasterized.

So what's the difference between a flattened .tif, a one layer .psd, or a layered .psd? As long as you have all the specs right from the printer...
I would just export it as a TIF, open in Phtosohop, and resave as a one-layer PSD (sounds senseless, but it's per their request).

So if these guys have no way of processing vector art, they obviously can't produce perfect clear text. I would probably want to give them a super-high res file, to compensate for their lack.

[jimking]

I think the common factor that links all of the versions mentioned (Illustrator 8.0 Photoshop 6.0) Is these were among the last versions available that still ran under OS 9.x

Making the jump to OS X was a pain in the ass because a lot of your old equipment just didn't work. Printers & scanners lacked drivers and most just discontinued support for them. It was a significant investment to upgrade. Maybe it was the lack of SCSI and the phone wire apple talk network that turned them off :D

It was this senario that busted a lot of printers or put several behind the 8 ball, no doubt. I even think software manufacturers screwed up such as QuarkXpress. Quark has never been the same since os9.

[Ned]

Illustrator 8, is a favorite of printers. Since it was shortly thereafter all the great effects, transparencies and such came into play. The truth is that they need to learn how to use the newer programs, or else they will begin to lose the higher paying clients. If they just want to stick with the small shop retails however, they are fine.

I dunno about that... I use Illy CS or CS2, but I stay away from effects. I use blends that can be read by any printer as a legacy EPS, and I make sure everything has been expanded before I send.

If the designer is experienced in the field and knows what they're doing, an older version of Illy should not be a problem. It's only the new designers who rely on effects. Having only Photoshop (any version!) is just plain stupid, though.

[carter the artist]

Ned,
sometimes there is a use, even for us experienced designers, to use effects. But my point is actually about how when I worked in printing, some of our vendors and whatnot always used Illy 8. (How funny, I started that with a conjuction.)

[morea]

^ I noticed that, lol!

[¿Beardo?]

I work in a very small market, and it's basically the same story you speak of on an everyday basis.

File compatibility is a constant issue. The thing is, if you present your client or your vendor with a snotty attitude you only end up screwing yourself in the long run. Bad quotes, bad word of mouth, and just bad publicity.

I know you said you're only using this guy once, but the inevitable may just happen. Being a Pre-Madonna in a world of Pre-Madonnas doesn't separate you from the rest.

[jessicam]

I can't come up with anything witty to say at all, even though I really tried, but 'Pre-Madonna' is cracking me the hell up.

[flutterby nut]

hehe!...not sure on the age, but i think he's probably more 'Post-Madonna'...

[LeftBrain Artist]

The correct usage of the term is Prima Donna (first lady from an opera). If you were as cool as I am you would know that. Excuse me a moment . . .

(slurps down a grape while reclining on my couch being fanned by coolies)

Is "Ned" a conjunction?

[flutterby nut]

do us a favor and don't choke on that grape, k?...else what will we bask in when you're gone? :D

[CamarotaDesign]

I hear the arguments for how hard it is for printers to make the upgrades, but you know what? if you are still working with expensive, time consuming, film based output, crappy platemaking machines and even worse software, what the hell you lazy bastards! Then charging $80 for 1000 business cards on non-premium stock with only 1 plate? give me a break. the print job came out pretty nice but how hard is it to do single color EPS that has no effects, only beziers shapes.

but still man, you are hurting yourself if you arent using a more economical way of outputting. (IE laser to plate) or using the plastic plates that can be used on certain photocopiers, or a desktop platemaker... I mean what the hell man!? get with the damn system and quit complaining that the world is passing you up and your expenses are just too much. The cost to just keep struggling by on your old inefficient equipment is hurting more in the long run. Take out a loan, update your equipment do a little creative marketing and bring yourself up to the current standards!!!!

[PrintDriver]

I'll take $3mil to go please.

[CamarotaDesign]

Dude, how hard can it be to setup something economical? I'm sure it's more than a few thousand to upgrade. But I've seen desktop plate making machines for less than $3,000. I'm sure to do the complete revamp go go to full PDF workflow, etc. etc. would be way up there. But for simple 1 and 2 plate jobs, it can't be that hard.

I'm sorry but it seems like the printers who arent interested in upgrading or think it's too expensive are just unorganized and out of touch. They want to do things the old way and feel that theres no need to advance. The "I can't do it" mentality is the main obstacle here.

[The_Black_Knight]

I'm sorry but it seems like the printers who arent interested in upgrading or think it's too expensive are just unorganized and out of touch. They want to do things the old way and feel that theres no need to advance. The "I can't do it" mentality is the main obstacle here.I have to agree with you about printer's attitudes toward change in the software industry.

In my mind, a printer that complains about having to update their workflow from time to time is like a construction company that complains that concrete is heavy.

In both cases, it's a) just the nature of the business, and b) it's not my problem. If some printers can figure out a way to update their workflow, then the ones that can't should go the way of the dinosaurs and Linotype compositors. There are plenty of printers that manage to keep up-to-date on their software and workflows, and those are the ones that should get the money, not the ones that haven't bothered to upgrade from Mac OS 9 and Illustrator 8 ('cause them newfangled OS X and transparency thingamajigs might not catch on, y'know?).

The print industry is, like it or not, a technology-based industry, and technology is continuously changing. Any printer that thinks they can just buy a bunch of equipment once and never upgrade again is ignorant of the industry, and doesn't deserve to make money.

[Drazan]

I found photoshop 3 in a drawer at work.

Any takers?

[The_Black_Knight]

I found photoshop 3 in a drawer at work.

Any takers?Sorry, but Photoshop 3 uses those new, fancy, "layers." I prefer to stick to Photoshop 2.5. Now that was the real Photoshop.

[PrintDriver]

Oh, I'm not complaining. I don't use plates or seps or any of that crap.
I'll just take $3mil to go. Thanks.

It's a constant battle in wide format because the software companies always forget us. They make things easier for the little print guys. Not easy, but easier. The wide format rip companies try to keep up but with a new release of ALL major software every year now it's tough to keep things flowing without shutting down for at least a whole weekend to upgrade things. I can't imagine having a ton of presses to calibrate. It's bad enough if you have 3 or 4 machines to change over while trying to maintain some modicum of color management. And not all rip updates for all machines come out at the same time. That is why I say, quite often, that all you nutcases who are standing outside the Apple store at midnight on upgrade release nite are no more than guinea pigs for the printers to try their workarounds on. :D

Beta programs don't help. Having a 1 month jump date on the release date might but that will never happen. The software isn't ready when it's released let alone a month early. And heaven forbid, they hold a release date to let the service providers catch up. Even the registered Adobe service providers don't catch much of a break there.

All hail the mighty dollar.

<can you tell I've been bitter about this for a long time?>

[PrintDriver]

P.S.
This is the 2nd weekend in a month I've had to come in on a Saturday because of CS3...:mad:
At least this one is rainy.

[Ned]

One Canadian Toonie on the Photoshop 3.

[The_Black_Knight]

Oh, I'm not complaining. I don't use plates or seps or any of that crap.
I'll just take $3mil to go. Thanks.[digs around in pocket...]

Um, I have about $3 and some change on me right now. I'll have to check between the sofa cushions for the rest.



That is why I say, quite often, that all you nutcases who are standing outside the Apple store at midnight on upgrade release nite are no more than guinea pigs for the printers to try their workarounds on. :DOkay, the flip side to my rant about printers not keeping up to date is that I don't upgrade the moment that new software is available. I don't like living on the bleeding edge. I also understand that it will take some time for printers to adjust workflows to incorporate new software, so it's not like I expect them to be running new versions of software a week after they come out. Heck, it's usually at least six months before I even start asking whether the printers can handle the latest version of software, and then it's some time after that (maybe another six months) before I upgrade myself. What I have a gripe with is the guys that are just stuck in a rut, still using software that was created in the last century, and do nothing but gripe and bitch whenever you give work to them about how Adobe ruined this and Apple ruined that and now none of their stuff works and it will cost money to change it yadda yadda yadda boo pancacking hoo.

You know what? I don't care. Can you print the file? If yes, then shut up and just do the job, using whatever bizaare workarounds you need to get the file to print using your ancient workflow. If you can't print it, just say so, and I'll go to a printer that knows what they're doing.

[PrintDriver]

Aw comeon...:D. You know a prepress/tech who doesn't like to bitch and moan?
That would be one sick puppy believe me. :p
We do the upgrades, we bitch about it, but we do it. It's part of stayin in business.

[jimking]

Most prepress people are at the mercy of the owner. These prepress people will perform all kinds of work-arounds to get the job done and that is what the bosses, owners see- the job got done, who needs the upgrades or particular tools. So the prepress person performs miracles, puts twice as much labor into the job in order to output it. Big boss thinks to himself "That's what I pay them for, what a genius these prepress people are!" Then when the prepress tech runs into a brick wall because of the department's limitations, it is then the owner thinks "bunch of idiots". Such is life. Not all printers are this way but many are, and prepress gets the blame, I think, out of frustration if anything goes wrong. This, my friends, leads to alot of bitching. :)

[PrintDriver]

^YesYesYes.
Exactly right.

[Kool]

Well said Jim. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[budafist]

How long should one work in prepress before moving on?
(If one wants to avoid becoming a permanent moody bitch?)

[jimking]

About a month.:eek:

[budafist]

Damn....too late.

[reezluv]

mine Photoshop cs2:)

[rickself]

I have to get in on this and sorry to say too bad it's on the weekend. This has gone way off the original post, but sometimes I get a little pissed.

All the money in the world, all the latest software, all the latest CTP equipment isn't gonna mean diddly squat if the Electronic Prepress TECHNICIAN doesn't know what the heck he or she is doing.

I've got 17 years in the business. I get paid good money because I know how to get a file from Freehand 5-13, Illustrator 3-CS, PageMaker 6, Publisher...even Word, Quark 4-7, up to the latest and greatest Creative Suite. If you have the attitude that, "I am the designer. If your shop can't output my file, than you, the printer, are below my standards!" Excuse ME! I don't want your job or your attitude.

Electronic Prepress Technicians like myself are tired of designers that think that if you create it and can print a composite off of a laser printer or a high end Epson, than by-gum, you can print color separations at 2400 dpi 300 line screen! The new wave of designers that come out of schools today are in-part whiney when it doesn't work right and are looking for the "EASY" button. EPP's will make you look good to the extent that we can with what you gave us.

A key here is cooperation between the designer and the EPP department. If you can see from the outside that the print shop runs old software and has a 2 color press to run a 4 color job, steer away. But talk to the EPP. I can tell you what we can and cannot do and how much time it MAY take. You just don't always know. Separate your file to a laser first so that we can see HARD COPY. Help us out here.

Sorry, I kind of strayed, but this comes up often enough and I haven't posted for a while, so take it for what it's worth. Work WITH your printer's EPP. Build a relationship.

Thank you very much, good bye. :D

[carter the artist]

I have to get in on this and sorry to say too bad it's on the weekend. This has gone way off the original post, but sometimes I get a little pissed.

All the money in the world, all the latest software, all the latest CTP equipment isn't gonna mean diddly squat if the Electronic Prepress TECHNICIAN doesn't know what the heck he or she is doing.

I've got 17 years in the business. I get paid good money because I know how to get a file from Freehand 5-13, Illustrator 3-CS, PageMaker 6, Publisher...even Word, Quark 4-7, up to the latest and greatest Creative Suite. If you have the attitude that, "I am the designer. If your shop can't output my file, than you, the printer, are below my standards!" Excuse ME! I don't want your job or your attitude.

Electronic Prepress Technicians like myself are tired of designers that think that if you create it and can print a composite off of a laser printer or a high end Epson, than by-gum, you can print color separations at 2400 dpi 300 line screen! The new wave of designers that come out of schools today are in-part whiney when it doesn't work right and are looking for the "EASY" button. EPP's will make you look good to the extent that we can with what you gave us.

A key here is cooperation between the designer and the EPP department. If you can see from the outside that the print shop runs old software and has a 2 color press to run a 4 color job, steer away. But talk to the EPP. I can tell you what we can and cannot do and how much time it MAY take. You just don't always know. Separate your file to a laser first so that we can see HARD COPY. Help us out here.

Sorry, I kind of strayed, but this comes up often enough and I haven't posted for a while, so take it for what it's worth. Work WITH your printer's EPP. Build a relationship.

Thank you very much, good bye. :D

Actually what I think it is, is the ol' S#!T rolls down hill thing. The designer has a boss who knows even less about printing than the designer and nothing about design. So he thinks there is an easy button, and when the designer says there is no easy button, then he gets fired. So he puts the responsibility on the printer.

just saying.

[rickself]

yep, and when the boss at the printer doesn't know a mouse from an ftp, then, well...

[PrintDriver]

I've been saying for a long time that just because you can draw it on your computer and it looks pretty on your monitior, doesn't mean it will print. The whiney students you speak of Rick, aren't even taught what PrePress is in school. Most don't even know what a sep is, let alone how to print one out, even on an Epson. LOL. All of a sudden it's an affront to their 'level of education' if you can't print their file... (an attitude which led me to stop frequenting a certain design forum which shall remain nameless).

You're right, a lot of print companies make-or-break on the ability of their Techs and Pressmen to get it done. If a designer has to 'make it work', it's better to talk to the tech than to a sales rep. Or at the very least, know what questions to ask and get the answers you need before proceeding.

[Loopy Lisa]

I'm having the same issue with my printer.
I want a sign printed for my business and they only have version 6. I have CS. I can't figure out how to save down to that version, is there even a way?

I also sent them over a small jpeg of my sign so they knew how many colours they were dealing with and apparently they can use THAT, enlarge it to the 4 feet by 2 feet sign I want and retain clarity. I don't understand that at all. PLUS they don't even have Illustrator, which is the original program I used to design my sign in the 1st place (I did a text clipping mask using a picture I messed around in PS with).

Lil'bit frus-ter-ated over here. I'm wondering if I should just say "thanks but no thanks" and go elsewhere.
Probably eh?

[budafist]

I also sent them over a small jpeg of my sign so they knew how many colours they were dealing with and apparently they can use THAT, enlarge it to the 4 feet by 2 feet sign I want and retain clarity.

That sounds fishy to me.

[Kool]

Can't you just send em a tiff?

There is no way the jpeg is gonna work. I think your idea of finding a different printer is the best. While I wouldn't expect every printer to have the latest version of software (Although they really should) version 6 is way way too old.

[¿Beardo?]

Many printers use much older versions of programs that we use. What need would a printer have for photo manipulation when all he does print? So they don't need the latest or greatest.

First, ask them what format they usually like to receive the graphic in.

They should be able to use a jpg, because jpg is standardized, i.e. a mac user or a windows user can open a jpg in any version of photoshop.

You should be able to send them a tiff which will serve better for print jobs than a jpg which is better suited for the web.

You may also be able to send them a print ready pdf, but make sure you save it down to the oldest version of adobe acrobat. As they probably haven't updated their reader if they haven't updated their photoshop.

Good luck!

[Kool]

Many printers use much older versions of programs that we use. What need would a printer have for photo manipulation when all he does print? So they don't need the latest or greatest.

So they can open files from customers.

[¿Beardo?]

So they can open files from customers.

My point is, why would a printer spend 2,000 for the initial package and $1000 for updates every 2 years for a program that he uses to open files, when he can open any files that are standard, i.e. jpg, tiff, pdf, or eps.

Additionally, why would you send a photoshop file to a printer? The more complicated you make it for a printer, the easier it is for them to mess up. For example, if they don't have the font that you used for your headline in your 150mb layered photoshop file, photoshop will replace it with the default font.

[dwagener]

At the moment, I'm still running Photoshop 7.0, Illustrator 9.0.2 and Mac 0S9 at work!! We have new mini macs with Leopard on them and we're just waiting for the software to come in, getting CS3... but we've been waiting for half a year now for the new computers and thank god the old stuff wasn't installing, but now it's probably going to be til December when they order the new software. It's terrible when you are running better equipment/software at home than at work...

[Kool]

That is true for PS files but now that it is all in suites you update all the programs at once. The amounts you mentioned are for all the Adobe apps not just PS. Most of my career has been in prepress and I worked for one guy who was so cheap he kept me on OS9 for 3 years after OS 10 came out because he was too cheap to upgrade the programs. It made my life hell trying to get people to back save Indesign and Illustrator files so we could use them. Sometimes it just couldn't be done. PS 6 is ancient in software terms. Somebody that is so cheap they are using programs from 10 years ago, you have to wonder where else they are cutting corners.

[¿Beardo?]

Somebody that is so cheap they are using programs from 10 years ago, you have to wonder where else they are cutting corners.

I can't disagree there! Point taken

[The_Black_Knight]

My point is, why would a printer spend 2,000 for the initial package and $1000 for updates every 2 years for a program that he uses to open files, when he can open any files that are standard, i.e. jpg, tiff, pdf, or eps.Because that's part of the cost of owning a printing business. A printer complaining about having to purchase software upgrades is like a race car driver complaining about having to buy tires. You build it into your costs and just deal with it.

Or, you can just stick with 10 year old software, and continuously bitch at clients who have the nerve to buy new software more often than once a decade, which doesn't make your business very appealing, especially compared to outfits that will gladly work with the latest files.

(The "you" I'm talking about here is a generalized you, not ¿Beardo? in particular.)

[¿Beardo?]

I'm not saying this in defense, well I kind of am, but I'm a graphic designer too. But, if you visit my neck of the woods, L.A. (lower Alabama), you'll find that a good number of our printers don't have the correct software, and don't even get me started on the sign shops.

It's become necessity for me to find workarounds. I don't know why I was defending them, it was early:confused:.

[Typically]

come on now even kinkos has cs3 nowadays :D

[Kool]

It's become necessity for me to find workarounds. I don't know why I was defending them, it was early:confused:.

Heh heh, no worries. :)

It can be hard for some small printers to stay completely up to date. A lot of the time the RIP drivers lag behind the new software also. Usually you can skip every other upgrade and still be ok. PS 6 is just ridiculous though.

[garricks]

I have gradually whittled down my vendor list to those who I know update their software in a reasonable time frame. One actually appreciates the way I keep updated -- they have used my files as test files, and we both benefit.

I find the worst at updating are the promotional items vendors. Our logos are now all saved in AI CS3. But I have a set saved as Illy 8 EPS files, just for the promotional guys. Because they won't even accept a PDF file.

[budafist]

We updated to CS3 after our first client sent us a CS3 file we couldn't open.

[Typically]

We updated to CS3 after our first client sent us a CS3 file we couldn't open.

same here

[MikeHun]

The trade off would be cheaper quotes on printing. Not likely in my experience it's just money grubbing. Low overhead high markup and profit margin. 2 versions below is the minimum! It's horrible for the Pre-press technicians also!