Never working for free again

[reuber1]

Before some of you kick me in the head, the circumstances are slightly different than me doing a logo for free for some John Q. Richman, or something of the like.

Some of you might have known that a few other individuals and I, who all met on another forum, decided to start a blog of our own. We were going to cover a gamut of topics, from TV, gaming, movies, etc., and just be a bunch of bullshitters pretty much. I had volunteered to be the site's designer. You may have seen it in my sig...it is certainly not an indication of my best design skills, but decent enough all things considered.

However, things have been turning sour lately. I have had a few individuals questioning my 'dedication' to the site due to me not updating the images and the errors in the site enough (of them, I'm only one of two not in college and works full time plus). Mind you, the site was in pristine condition before the advertisements were put in (without my prior knowledge), and I find myself updating mistakes that they are making, rather than mistakes I made. The site was XHTML Valid when I uploaded, but since then I think there's like 28 validation errors now, and I'm past the point of wanting to use it in a portfolio. I don't want to bring up all details, but suffice it to say things have taken a turn for the worse and salvaging the situation seems rather bleak at the moment. Very little of my duties are spelled out. I told them things I'm working on currently, and that if a change isn't readily visible, that doesn't mean nothing is fixed. And, lol, I haven't gotten the logo finished yet, while at the same time, some of them think it's a two day project. Again, lot's of little things, but came to a head when someone over the weekend told me to get off my high horse after I touched up a graphic for him, he didn't like it without saying thanks for volunteering, I replied saying I need to know what is wanted before working on constant revisions then and to post it in staff discussion to see what others think, and I was basically told 'you ****ing volunteered to do it. Get off your ****ing high horse.'

Keep in mind, this isn't a site we are getting paid for, this is something we all are doing because it was originally supposed to be a 'fun' thing to do.

I sent an e-mail to the fellow founders detailing my concerns, and let them know as nice as possible how much they have gotten and what the $ value is of it, and that I haven't been happy with the treatment I've been receiving.

If it gets to it, I'd rather not, but I may have to leave. Don't I have some sort of leverage here? I did design the site, and though I didn't use a contract (kicking own ass), since I was part of that entity anyway (or, the recipient entity of the design), and since I didn't sign off on anything that says that it was their design exclusively, don't I still own the design? I mean, I didn't do the work for someone else per se; I was one of the original founders who helped design the initial site. So it's like I did it for me, and a few other people too. If I wind up getting booted or leave due to a mutiny, I'll be damned if they are using my layout. I'd be happy to let them use it if things get too busy for me and I have to leave regardless, but if I'm being treated like shit, I don't see a reason why I should just give them the site design for free.

Even in an instance where I didn't have much to lose, doing free design for a project like this still seemed to be a problem. Ugh...contract, contract, contract.

[John G]

I vote ninja it. Take it down, put an index.html file up that says, in font size = 7... in comic sans.., "F@CK YOU".

I'm willing to bet they don't have a back-up.

You don't have a contract, but neither do they. They can't exactly counter sayin it's "theirs". imo.

[reuber1]

Here's the kicker though, I don't have FTP access. They've given me a username and password, but I haven't been able to get in. I've always had to send my files to someone else to upload, which is retarded.

[CatintheHat1]

Here's the kicker though, I don't have FTP access. They've given me a username and password, but I haven't been able to get in. I've always had to send my files to someone else to upload, which is retarded.


You need new friends. You can do my site for free. I'll give you full ftp access. ;)

[Zendada]

Sorry to hear it went south. Is it worth the hassle and stress of fighting over it? Maybe just cut your loss and bow out diplomatically to keep the contacts intact?

[reuber1]

Sorry to hear it went south. Is it worth the hassle and stress of fighting over it? Maybe just cut your loss and bow out diplomatically to keep the contacts intact?
Considering the heated discussions we've had, I have a feeling if it goes any worse we won't be talking again anyway. I'm basically dealing with a bunch of college students right now, and even a few high schoolers. Only one other is older than me (who ironically sent me the comment from the first post).

It's not that I'm worried about losing potential contacts, moreso that they don't realize the value of what they've gotten, and the complete disrespect thrown my way.

[Kool]

It all depends on what you want to happen. If you want to salvage any of the friendship and whatnot that got you guys to start this thing then tell em your sorry you've been crazy busy and it might be better if someone else took over. If you don't care then do what John said.

[reuber1]

It all depends on what you want to happen. If you want to salvage any of the friendship and whatnot that got you guys to start this thing then tell em your sorry you've been crazy busy and it might be better if someone else took over. If you don't care then do what John said.
I've essentially already done the first, although I didn't say sorry so much as I've been crazy busy. I don't know these guys personally, just via the forums, and a few of them I'm still cool with, and they know my feelings on this matter, but a few of the key others don't see what I've done. I am also a writer for the site as well, and listed as one of the original founders.

Like I said though, I don't have FTP access (well, I do, it just doesn't work), and two of the others do, so even if I wanted to hijack (which I don't), I couldn't anyway.

[budafist]

If you want to stay on this project, perhaps you need to post a timeline of when each change will be done by so that everyone knows what is involved when you do something for them. Sure people think something may be an "easy" job when it might take a month of your free time to do. It's not their fault, educate them. If they can't deal with your time frames, they can get someone else to deal with it. I'm sure they would see it your way.

[CamarotaDesign]

If you ask me, the best thing is to cancel the whole damn thing unless you want to bend over backwards to make these people happy. And ***** highschoolers, 90% of them are little twerps. Good luck.

[reuber1]

Well, I just got an e-mail from the head guy saying I've been let go.

Do I have any leverage here to make them take the damn site down? I'll be damned if these ****ers are keeping it up.

[vtwin_gary]

if you can't take it down yourself i'm sure they won't do it for you.

[reuber1]

if you can't take it down yourself i'm sure they won't do it for you.
I know that, but as the original creator of the design who didn't work as a separate contractor and who was not legally employed by them ('not legally' as in we weren't really working, it was supposed to be a get together thing).

Actually, I'm using a few elements from iStock that I own the usage rights to (I'm not sure what the official term is, it was the basic download/purchase), don't I have some leverage there?

[reuber1]

Though I could go in through the wordpress admin and delete the code from there.

nvm: They deleted my access.

[MikeTheVike]

I'm nosy, can we get a link?

[reuber1]

www dot arrogantics dot com

Don't hyperlink, I'd rather they not get the traffic (or trace back here).

[reuber1]

So looks like they removed my access from the presentation section of the site, which means they don't want me to take it down.

Can't I call a lawyer or something? This has got to be illegal. I signed nothing over, I was never employed by them, they never had any statement that said that any works finished are the sole property of the owner of the site. I was the original designer of the work.

[Mynock]

Your lysine contingency, where is, hmm?

[Typically]

unleash N.A.N.K.A.™!

[reuber1]

Can't I call a lawyer or something? This has got to be illegal. I signed nothing over, I was never employed by them, they never had any statement that said that any works finished are the sole property of the owner of the site. I was the original designer of the work.
Any ideas?

[Typically]

i think your best line of attack would be with the istockphoto photos. since you paid for them and they didn't it's pretty much like them stealing from you. it's a really crappy situation but i would think you have the upper hand since you did create all the files. do they have any of the working files?

[reuber1]

i think your best line of attack would be with the istockphoto photos. since you paid for them and they didn't it's pretty much like them stealing from you. it's a really crappy situation but i would think you have the upper hand since you did create all the files. do they have any of the working files?
None of the original source files (I mucked most of it up in my archaic version of Freehand), just the images, but they do have the HTML & PHP files, along with the stylesheets. I've always had to submit to them to get something FTP'd for I never had access myself, but they did.

[reuber1]

One thing I should point out is that there are ads on the site, and the owner is making a profit from ads and traffic, which means he's making money off my work, but there was nary a contract between either of us, and he was not my employer.

[Yossarian]

The whole collaborative effort thing sure is a sticking point. I think you still retain copyright though if you've never specifically told them that the design belongs to them.

I agree with Typically that the image rights would be a good place to start.
Maybe a round of cease and desist letters to your former buddies and the ISP are in order.

[Mynock]

I say tough luck Roobs, chalk this one up to should've known better file.

[CamarotaDesign]

Do you have any friend's who dad's are lawyers, or know any? I'm guessing you could have a lawyer write them an official letter explaining their faults and that you intend to take them to small claims court if they do not take your work down. The copyrights are yours, no copyright was signed over, everyone working on this worked individually. (you guys didn't file a business claim, or anything else that declared the site a legal business entity right?)

You could also write a letter threatening to take them to small claims court yourself if they do not take down your site.

I can tell you that I once designed a small site for a movie theater I worked at (while at home) and they decided not to use it at first, and then after I had quit they used it. So I wrote a letter stating that they could pay me $150 now, or I would take them to small claims court and seek the amount of a standard design industry rate of $50 for 10 hours of work. Needless to say they were not happy that I came after them for my money, but they knew they were in the wrong and optioned the $150 route. Which, while was less than I deserved I was still in highschool with no formal training at the time and getting anything more than $20 dollars for a design was a big deal for me.

Just write a very legal and formal letter that just states the facts, such as "I did X amount of work and will take you to small claims court for X amount if you do not take it down" etc. etc.

You would totally win in small claims court if they continue using your work. So they either need to take the site down, or pay for it. You need to proceed very legally here though. Write them the letter first stating that you are now requesting that payment be made, or the site be taken down, don't get personal, just state the facts.

And send the letter registered mail, emails aren't gonna mean shit. Good luck.

*disclaimer alert* this is not legally binding advice!!!!!* use at your own discretion. I am a self proclaimed legal expert!!!!!!*

[CamarotaDesign]

I say tough luck Roobs, chalk this one up to should've known better file.

pancake that. Shut these little bastards down.

[reuber1]

Thanks camarota, I'll go that route.

[budafist]

Do you have any friend's who dad's are lawyers, or know any?

Hey! Lawyers can be Mums too!

[urstwile]

Maybe she can help:

http://i14.tinypic.com/4kjl8d4.jpg

[Red Kittie Kat]

ahhh the ever lovely Claire Huxtable :D

[CamarotaDesign]

Hey! Lawyers can be Mums too!

lol, my bad.

I just said dad cause all my friend's who have a parent that is a lawyer its their dad. Also a couple of my friends are in law school. I just had no female influences for that sentence, sorry :p

[Red Kittie Kat]

We will let it slip this time Cam :D

[reuber1]

Crisis averted. I'm still on, cooler heads prevailed and we didn't have to go that far, though they are aware of the potential consequences.

[budafist]

That's good Reuber. So it means you are continuing with this project.

Cam: I've got 2 friends going through law school (final year) and another friend that is a lawyer making 5 times what I make salary. All girls. Girlpower!

[CamarotaDesign]

yeah, well..... girls are yucky!!!!! :p



j/k

[Virgo Nightingale]

Speaking of girl lawyers I have to get this off my chest... Did you know the movie Legally Blonde (Reese Witherspoon as Elle, a ditzy blond in law school) is now on Broadway? As a musical?

*shudder*

[frankster]

That sounds almost as disturbing as this (http://www.menopausethemusical.com/).

[Jackimalyn]

lmao. Im NOT looking forward to my own menopause experience, why would I pay to watch someone elses??

$60 to watch a buncha women go through crazy mood swings an hot flashes? Ive got better (http://www.montypythonsspamalot.com/)musicals to check out...

[Typically]

that's awesome! i'd check out check out the monty python musical

[Ben Kessler]

I heard a song from Legally Blonde on the radio. It sounded fun.

[frankster]

Hells bells, is that Tim Curry as Arthur?! He plays some crazily diverse roles doesn't he! (frankenfurter/long john silver in muppet treasure island/the butler in cluedo/he was in the hunt for red october etc) I'd put him in with Michael Keaton and Johnny Depp for versatility. Blimey.

[Red Kittie Kat]

I adore Tim Curry :D