My Imaginary Clients

[katgal]

I've been designing "stuff" for friends and family for fun as long as I can remember. But now I'm getting serious about actually trying to make a living at it. (Well, I won't quit my day job just yet...but I can dream, can't I?)

To hone my skill, I've been taking on imaginary web design clients (real businesses in need of serious design help). Here's my latest design (http://www.bkbdesigngroup.com/michelangelo). What do you think? Any suggestions for improvement/changes? (Not all links work, but the "menu" and "about" pages do work. Interior page design is a bit different than the home page.)

Do you think these "clients" would be put off if I sent them an email with an explanation and a link to their "new" design? Or would they think I'm nuts? Or even worse, would they think I'm trying to pull something shady? I would love it if they actually wanted me to implement the design, but I realize most of my imaginary clients will never become real clients. That's not my purpose. As I said, just trying to learn and get better and it's so much easier to learn in a real world (even if imaginary) environment.

http://www.bkbdesigngroup.com/slides/port_michelangelo.jpg (http://www.bkbdesigngroup.com/michelangelo)

[frankster]

I won't even start on the spec work issues here, because I'm sure someone will be along directing you to several pages of info on that shortly, but I would say that you should take the site down immediately before it is spidered by the search engines and starts coming up when people search for that establishment. Even clients who are paid up, contact signed, eager and willing do not like to have two versions of themselves in circulation. Imagine if the owners of this establishment hated the design and freaked out that potencial customers could veiw it as though it was thier official site. Even when someone is a true client, I would stick to screen shots and no live versions, or password protected versions of the site for only the client to view until they are happy for it to go live.

Now, on to the spec tirade...

[katgal]

I'm not doing spec work. I'm practicing. BIG difference.

I have blocked search engines from that folder using my robots.txt file.

[frankster]

If you want to practise, why not approach a business/charity about doing pro bono work for them before you complete the work? That way you create what they need based on a design breif, like in the real world? You will gain experience with dealing with a real project and accomodating a client's needs that way too.

[budafist]

Don't do this. If you want practice, do pro-bono work or use imaginery clients. As a designer I am not impressed with people that go round working for free to try and poach clients from their existing contracts.

Just because you are getting practice out of doing spec work, doesn't mean that it is no longer spec work.

Just because you enjoy the sex, doesn't mean your not a prostitute.

[Kool]

Welcome to the forum. :)

Creating new identities for existing companies is an excellent way to practice and gain experience, I have often recommended it. However I would never actually publish these exorcises or contact these companies. That is frowned upon by the design community.

[morea]

I would recommend looking over the design challenge links posted here (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17133) (although there aren't many specifically devoted to web design, you could adapt the briefs), googling "sample design briefs" for actual projects, or (as frankster already suggested) working pro bono for a cause that you support (like an animal shelter, soup kitchen, etc).

A big part of the design process is in actually executing a piece based on a client's specifications, unfortunately not just on what you think would look good. Lots of times what looks good and what a client actually wants are two different things. :)

Pro bono work may be tax deductable, and also gives you real-world experience in working with clients. It's a win-win situation!

[katgal]

Guess I opened a can of worms, didn't I.

Frankly, if their current site was done by a "designer," they deserve to have their client poached. Ok, that was mean. Sorry!

I'll keep practicing. Maybe next time I go there for dinner I'll feel them out.

[morea]

well, it's not just about poaching clients; a lot of companies don't think that they can afford designers, or don't think that they even need one... many people believe that design can be done by anyone with the right software, even if that person has no training.

If you go up to a company and suggest to them that their current designer is no good, you may be embarassed to learn that the 'designer' is the owner's wife, or the secretary who had to do the job even though she is untrained in design, because the company either could not afford a professional, or did not see the value in hiring one. Offending a company is definitely no way to get your foot in the door.

I would be more concerned about legal issues, as frankster suggested in her first post. You are using this company's business name (if nothing else) in your work without their permission. You can't be too careful when it comes to copyright and intellectual property. Chances are that nothing will come of it, but I wouldn't do it.

What I am saying is that if you are designing something without a brief or project guidelines provided by someone serving as a client, you're not gaining experience in much other than using the software. Design is about communicating ideas visually.

A lot of new designers work on logos for fictional companies for their portfolios, which is fine, but they don't take into account how the fictional company in question might want to be percieved by their clients. I've seen people post their logo concepts on the forum for (let's say for example) a law firm. Another designer then comments that the logo doesn't really have the right "feel" for the law firm, but feels more like a restaurant... so the original poster just changes the company name from 'Acme Law Office' to 'Acme Restaurant' and calls it a day.

Doing things like that will not serve you down the road when you have paying clients; you NEED their input in design work. You need to match your work to what they want to convey, and a real client is certainly not going to change their business from a law office to a restaurant to accomodate their designer.

Just something to think about.

[budafist]

Every one of us has produced cringeworthy work.

You don't know what the circumstances of a job is until you work in that designer's shoes. Maybe the deadline was very tight. Maybe a client has poor taste, low res images that they are adamant will work, bad colour combos etc and will not budge contrary to the good advice of a designer?

Redesigning existing pieces in private for your own benefit and practice is one thing, but throwing them out there and hoping that the fish will bite is another entirely. (I'm alluding to your can of worms :) )

[morea]

Redesigning existing pieces in private for your own benefit and practice is one thing, but throwing them out there and hoping that the fish will bite is another entirely. (I'm alluding to your can of worms :) )

^ exactly. And that's why "spec work" came up.

Have a look at this thread:
Article: Coping With Clients Who Use Your Concept Design Without Paying (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14271)

[katgal]

You don't know what the circumstances of a job is until you work in that designer's shoes.

Take a look at the code. It's a mess. Obviously not done by someone who knows much about the modern world of html and css. Looking bad is only half the story. Ok, I'm being mean again! I know, I shouldn't criticize other's work unless they ask for it. Somebody stop me. :)

Over half of my "practice" time is devoted to learning the ins and outs of css and making sure my pages are clean and validate.

I do understand the limitations of working with what you have. I did the advertising design for my company's 150th anniversary history book last year. Probably about 30 pages worth of ads. As you all know far better than I, some folks just didn't understand that you can not use a web-quality logo for print. But I did the best with what I had.

[morea]

If you go up to a company and suggest to them that their current designer is no good, you may be embarassed to learn that the 'designer' is the owner's wife, or the secretary who had to do the job even though she is untrained in design, because the company either could not afford a professional, or did not see the value in hiring one. Offending a company is definitely no way to get your foot in the door.

my points still stand, but it looks like you don't want to hear any of this.

[frankster]

If the code is "a mess" it is most likely to have been done using frontpage or some old version of dreamweaver or something, in which case it is more likely to have been created by the owner's wife/nephew/son etc than a proffessional, so Morea's point about offending becomes even more pertinent I would have said.

[katgal]

I would never ever tell them, "Hey, your website sucks! Can I design you a new one." Guess I should hope they don't frequent this forum then, huh? :rolleyes:

If I were to approach them, I'd tell it how it is... I love their restaurant, and I used them as inspiration in my quest to learn and that I thought they might like to see what I've done....

It's amusing to me that you all are concerned that I might offend the maker of this "homemade" website. If the same wife/nephew/son came in here and said "I'm no designer, but I thought I'd have a go at designing our restaurant's website" and offered up that as their "design" few of you would hesitate to tell him/her to hire a real designer. I guess we're all free to offend all those who dare enter confines of this forum. lol

But rather than continue on this line of discussion, let me return to my original reason for posting: Anyone have any comments or suggestions for improvement on the design??

[urstwile]

If you're wanting to refine your css, why not try sites like this one? (http://csszengarden.com/)

[Two-Toe Tom]

an extra set of scroll bars pops up for me in the about and menu pages (IE6). also, the top navigation shifts a bit to the right on the about page.

[Two-Toe Tom]

i also think that the "menu" section can be split into different pages with a submenu on the side. and there should be a page for the location w/ a map, but i guess that can go under contact.

[Two-Toe Tom]

also, i don't think ppl are that worried about offending the person who made the website. they're just trying to tell you why your approach may not be as successful as you'd think. it's mostly advice for your benefit, but you're always free to ignore it.

[frankster]

From the link in the site to your website it looks as though you want to be a proffessional design business. Giving away your work might seem like a great way to start word of mouth about your skills, but amongst small businesses it is more likely to get you people expecting something for nothing. It's admirable that you want to work your way into a proffession that you know you will enjoy and that you are willing to work for free to do that, but don't devalue yourself in the long term by going about it in a less than sensible fashion.

This forum is actually a very supportive environment for new designers. You just have to be careful not to ask a question and then balk at candid replies.

You might get a better critique without business advice if you posted some of your designs in the showcase area of the forum.

[resdog]

I totally agree about it probably being a friend of the owner and to take it as it is, but I looked at the site, and in the view code, I found this little ditty:

<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 97">

***shudder**

[resdog]

Looking at your design, I would drop the "home" link on the home page. It's kind of redundant, as I don't know of anyone who would want to go to the home page from the home page.