I thought InDesign was the industry standard...

[Sketcher]

I keep hearing people on this forum saying that InDesign is taking over and Quark is phasing out. All of my design teachers are saying the same thing and are only teaching InDesign. However, if this is true, I don't think very many businesses got the memo yet. I've been looking for a design job for quite some time now and nine out of every ten job postings I see require knowledge of Quark instead of InDesign. Do they realize that colleges aren't teaching Quark anymore? It seems like I have to go out and buy and learn Quark just to get a job. If I know InDesign very well, would I be able to learn Quark fairly quickly?

[frankster]

If I know InDesign very well, would I be able to learn Quark fairly quickly?

Yeah, probably, but you won't enjoy it.

[MD]

This forum is full of Quark haters. The only reason most of them switched is because it came bundled in the creative suite. Once you know one page layout program it is fairly easy to make the jump to the other.

[urstwile]

It's good to know both. While it's true that InDesign is gaining in popularity, there are plenty of people still using Quark, including those who might have legacy documents from all the years of using Quark before InDesign hit the scene.

[PrintDriver]

Colleges that are only teaching InDesign rank right down there in my book with Colleges that don't teach pre-press. You are paying an awful lot of money to be handicapped by knowing only half of what you need to know to be marketable when you leave school.

Learn Quark. If you know InD it will be fairly easy to do. Just different keyboard shortcuts (hint, you can change InD shortcuts to match Quark's). I don't hate either of them and use both almost daily.

[doubting_thomas]

It depends what part of what industry you're talking about. For prepress
InDesign is the best tool for a PDF workflow (as far as layout apps go), so
it could be considered the industry standard for those using or needing to place
PDF files. Knowing both is the best bet for a designer though.

[WannaBrie]

This quandry always make me chuckle a bit. My school only taught ID, but my very first job used quark, the night before my big interview, i downloaded a trial version of quark and boned up enough to land the job...layout apps are pretty similar...you can do it... strangely (or not) enough, my next two jobs were ID predominantly. I still use quark shortcuts in ID, though, makes it easier to switch back and forth.

[Danger_Mouse]

I work at a marketing and brand assurance firm. I use both Indesign and Quark. It's really irrelavant which one you use in my opinion. Everything I send to our printer is a PDF, I send the native files only in case they need to do some last minute changes for us rather than FTP a new file.
Being a long time quark user, Indy has totally won me over and our printer is telling us they get tons of INdy files as well and recommended it.

The adjustment CAn be frustrating for sure, especially if you have to jump from INdy to Quark files all day long. But you get use to it. But having just jumped on the INdy bandwagon about 4 months ago, I prefer it over Quark.

[PrintDriver]

Arrrrgh! Where's my horse whip?!

[frankster]

Yeah, probably, but you won't enjoy it.

OOh, people took that the wrong way. Maybe I should have explained more. It's no fun learning another program that does the same as a program that you are already comfortable with. It doesn't enable you to do anything new and exciting (well, apart from get a job ;) :D ). It's just something that needs to be done.

[urstwile]

I knew what you meant, Frankster, just thought I'd throw my two cents in anyway. ;)

[Danger_Mouse]

and I was just rambling. I like to ramble.....you can call me a rambler. ramble

[doubting_thomas]

Arrrrgh! Where's my horse whip?! I don't see anyone saying that one is better than another for designing, or
knowing, in this thread (except for frankster ) :p. It's sort of refreshing.

[Sketcher]

Colleges that are only teaching InDesign rank right down there in my book with Colleges that don't teach pre-press.

I know what you mean. I was pretty mad when I found out my school didn't offer any pre-press classes. One of my professors was mad about that too so he would teach us a little about it every now and then during our other classes.

[Kool]

In my opinion it's not pre press that's missing from todays curriculum's that's the problem. True pre press is so shop specific and bizarre work arounds that there's no way it can be learned in school. What's really missing is basic fundamental file prep skills. Understanding what the final product will be and the physical parameters of the final medium it will end up on should be taught on the first day and every single day after that. And not as a separate subject but as a regular part of the "Learning Design" process. Because the answers to these questions determine the entire creation process that follows.

It doesn't matter what specialty you end up in. Even web only designers need to understand that some elements on the website are going to cross over into the print world eventually and need to design them accordingly.

It boggles my mind that we get people in here with bachelors degrees who still don't understand the fundamental difference between CMYK and RGB.

[tZ]

Kool Wrote
t boggles my mind that we get people in here with bachelors degrees who still don't understand the fundamental difference between CMYK and RGB.

I don't think thats the colleges fault I just think those people are idiots.

[Kool]

Puts soap box away.

As far as the original question a layout program is pretty much a layout program. If you are an expert in one you'll be able to figure out the other without too much trouble.

Quark isn't dead, but they were the only game in town for a long time. Sheer inertia will keep them in business as long as they keep putting out versions. I do believe that ID will continue to gain market share. Shops will get tired of putting out big money on the CS suite and then having to write another big check to Quark. Eventually they will take the plunge and go all ID until Quark is just another also ran. It might take 20 years but I think it will happen.

[Kool]

I don't think thats the colleges fault I just think those people are idiots.

Good point LOL. :D

[urstwile]

This may seem off topic but it's not. Today, I called a vendor (one of two whom we're thinking of using for a project) for a large format project. One of the vendors was fine with InDesign files, the other was not, in fact had never heard of InDesign, and said that they prefer EPS files, PC platform.

This may seem amazing to some, but it's not unusual here in San Diego, and I suspect other places as well.

Which is why it's up to us to know how to use as many of the tools available to us as possible, because certain scenarios are going to present themselves, and it's important to know how to deal with them and use the appropriate tools when facing up to those kinds of scenarios.

So right now, Quark is still a contender (for reasons I stated above). And frankly, I hope they remain a contender, which is not say that I want to use Quark, but because I think having multiple contenders in any kind of arena like that prevents the very thing that made Quark the erstwhile (yeah, see, I know how to spell it right too ;)) heavyweight for so long: it was the only kid on the block. Note how you'll read that their customer service is better, do you wonder why that's happened? Because InDesign is giving them a run for their money, that's why. Competition is always good, and ends up benefitting us in the long run, if we have competitive products to choose from.

P.S. Before you get started on a rant about "what kind of vendor hasn't heard of InDesign", remember that this kind of stuff is often all about the client's budget, and some of the smaller vendors have limited resources to upgrade software and stay top of the line like the larger vendors do, but they also charge a great deal less, and at the end of the day, some clients will often go for cheaper rather than state of the art. Sad but true.

[Kool]

P.S. Before you get started on a rant about "what kind of vendor hasn't heard of InDesign",

Even if they don't use it they should at least know what it is LOL. Has this guy been living in a cave for the last 5 years. :D

[urstwile]

Perhaps. I've heard the overhead is a lot lower caveside. :D

[Danger_Mouse]

P.S. Before you get started on a rant about "what kind of vendor hasn't heard of InDesign", remember that this kind of stuff is often all about the client's budget, and some of the smaller vendors have limited resources to upgrade software and stay top of the line like the larger vendors do, but they also charge a great deal less, and at the end of the day, some clients will often go for cheaper rather than state of the art. Sad but true.

Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head there.

[PrintDriver]

When I say pre-press skills, I mean what Kool said. The knowledge of knowing at least the basics of file prep, bleed, crops, effects, etc. As far as specific vendors, always call the printer before you start the design.

Urst, as far as large format vendors not knowing InDesign, it really depends on the shop. If you frequent the sign forums at all (probably not, huh?), you'll notice that most of the shop talk on there is all about using PCs and that CorelDraw and Flexi or Signlab are the only programs you need in a signshop. But with most signshops expanding into printing, they are finding it difficult to catch up to the current state-of-the-art design programs, or they have plunged in before doing any research (a LOT of this happening right now with the price of good machines coming down and a flood of cheap Chinese import machines).

I'd personally steer well clear of a large format vendor only working from PC eps files. There are far too many other options available out there and there is just too much that can go wrong converting any doc, even Illy docs, to .eps files. Unless you've established a rapport with them, you don't know what they are opening it in, if your transparency is being supported, or if they even know the workarounds needed to get it to print sometimes. And pdf is usually not an option because of the ICC profiling and/or color swapping required by these machines (if they even know what that means and sometimes they don't). They may be perfectly fine for in-house design-to-print but I'd be wary of sending them something they can't open natively.

Of course, this doesn't mean that someone who accepts InD files knows what they are doing either. Or that a shop only accepting PC .eps files can't do a fine job. Just be darn sure you discuss file prep and view samples. Lots of samples.:D

[urstwile]

Trust me PD, if it were my choice, I'd most certainly work with the vendor who can deal with InDesign (one which we've worked with before, by the way, so I know the quality of their work) over the other vendor who can't (and who we've also never worked with before). Unfortunately, it's not my call.

[PrintDriver]

Yes I get in that situation sometimes myself. Client insists on a vendor for cost reasons. All I can say is get on the phone with them and work out what you can before doing the design, then try not to let any limitations get you angry. Think of it as a challenge. :D

[urstwile]

Yup, been there done that, believe me. :)

[Jhihmoac]

InDesign is fast becoming the industry standard because 1) It's an Adobe product along with industry standards Photoshop, Illustrator, and Acrobat (duh)...2) Either in stand-alone packaging or part of a Creative Suite bundle...InDesign is still considerably cheaper than Quark...and 3) You can edit your images in Photoshop or Illustrator if need be...while still within the InDesign realm, introduce them, or return them back into the InD document...and move on to the next task without ever having to close your application...Try doing that in Quark without having multiple monitors on your system! :p

[frailer]

and said that they prefer EPS files, PC platform.
I have a mate in wide format here. He'll take any native file, and can do anything, but his imposition program works in eps and on OS9. So as PD says, depends on the house/ouputter, and what they know.

[PrintDriver]

^Right but there is a big difference between doing your own in-house conversions where you know what is going to happen and asking the designer to supply .eps only. It isn't so much what they know, it's how they do the job.