Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Wacky things clients say to take advantage of designers
I've been freelancing for a while now but it never ceases to amaze me how clients either intentionally or unintentionally try to take advantage of a situation by suggesting or demanding something completely unfair.
For example:
"We know a lot of people that we can refer to you. Give us a deal and we'll refer you to all of our friends"
"Why don't you design something and if we like it we'll hire you?"
or how about,
"If you can give us a price break on this project, we'll pay you extra on the next one".
Okay, I am done ranting, but I wonder what kinds of demands, suggestions and stipulations other designers have had to deal with. I don't want to rail on clients. Being put in a situation like this can be difficult. Has anyone else felt like a client tried to do this to them? What did they ask or suggest?
Be firm, don't let them take advantage of you. You charge the prices you charge because that is what you consider fair market vaule for your services. You are not like a used car salesmen, jacking prices up to a ridiculous level expecting to be talked down. Stick to your guns and don't work for free.
"We know a lot of people that we can refer to you. Give us a deal and we'll refer you to all of our friends"
So I can do cheap design for them too? I think not. This is a design firm, not a garage sale.
"Why don't you design something and if we like it we'll hire you?"
I've already designed lots of somethings. They are in my portfolio. Do you like them? Do you want to pay me to do a something for you?
"If you can give us a price break on this project, we'll pay you extra on the next one".
How about I charge you extra for this one, and then I will give you a price break on the next one?
Okay, so the first one isn't very diplomatic, but still. I would probably actually use the other two though. I might even use the first if someone annoyed me enough.... and I were my own boss.
"If you can give us a price break on this project, we'll pay you extra on the next one".
Turn it back around on them, say "Sorry I can't do that but how about this. You pay full price on this one and I will pro rate the discount on the next (over $.$$$ amount) big job you bring me" This puts the onus on them to say no and quickly weeds out the BSers. Every once in a while they really do have more jobs and you can make back any small discount you actually end up giving.
budafist
08-16-2007, 04:10 AM
I've been asked all of those questions by clients.
What if we turned around and threw those questions back at our clients with their own products?
Actually, as far as the price break thing... You are the service provider, it's logical for you to give them a price break AFTER the first job. It works that way in any other business, too. Repeat customers get the price breaks. You buy in bulk, you get a deal. Simple as that.
So no, you don't get a price break now, and pay more later. It's works the other way around.
I almost always give breaks to my repeat customers, and they do keep coming back...
urstwile
08-16-2007, 07:11 AM
So Ned, would that mean that if I'm a regular customer of a clothing store, and pay premium price for my first pair of jeans, that I should expect subsequent jeans to be priced lower because I paid premium for the first pair?
Damn, wish my local grocery store worked that way. :)
I don't mean to be obtuse, but the idea of giving price breaks for the same service has always seemed foreign to me. Except for your bulk analogy, in which case it makes sense.
Yes, your grocery store sells in bulk too, I'm sure. :D
But again, this is only for repeat business, who have already proven that they will bring more business to you time and again... In our field, people tend, over time, to start feeling like they're not getting their money's worth anymore, after they've been using your services for so long... I mean, some don't care, but smaller companies will start looking at their budget, and asking if they can still afford a high-priced professional designer...
ArchVis
08-16-2007, 10:10 AM
Ned, I have to disagree. As a business owner, you should be constantly reinforcing the value of the service you're providing to your clients so they continue to want it, not discounting. My price is what it is. Occasionally I'll hook up a good client with something small, like letting a five-minute revision slide without charging them for the hour, BUT I still send them an invoice for the time and just apply a credit to the invoice. Any little, seemingly inconsequential thing you do for a client will stick in their mind IF they know about it. That's why I send a regular newsletter and tell my clients everything I'm doing, from workshops I'm giving to pro bono work I'm doing. It reinforces me as a pro who's in demand (even if I'm not always in as much demand as I'd like). Perception is reality, especially in sales.
Dave
PrintDriver
08-16-2007, 11:02 AM
Charge a fair and honest price every time as far as your design work goes. I'd rather be known as fair and honest rather than for 'playing favorites' as discounts can sometimes be perceived. Heaven forbid two of your clients compare pricing... ;)
Bulk discounts do work in the print business though. You bring me 1 of something you get charged full price. You want 10 of the same thing, you get a discount on the 9 after the first. You bring in a certain amount of work per year and you may qualify as a freelance 'broker'... Depends on your industry.
When I buy bulk groceries, I go to someplace like BJs. I don't expect the same price from my grocery store. :D
morea
08-16-2007, 12:19 PM
No kidding.
For more about discounting, check this thread (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29127).
Virgo Nightingale
08-16-2007, 01:39 PM
From a cheap (now former) client of ours:
"Since you subscribe to this stock photo service, and thus don't have to pay anything to download an image, you won't have to charge me for the image, right?"
These are great replys, thanks!
I've given good and loyal clients price breaks now and then on things - they feel they're getting a good deal and I feel like good value and I feel like I am still getting paid well.
But I was wondering what everyone else is hearing from clients either suggesting or demanding that makes them think, "You've got to be kidding me?!?!"
Virgo's "Since you subscribe to this stock photo service, and thus don't have to pay anything to download an image, you won't have to charge me for the image, right?" - I've never heard that one, that's hysterical! I noticed you put former client :)
Virgo Nightingale
08-16-2007, 02:08 PM
Totally former. After I told him no, that we would have to charge him, he had the balls to ask why. Um, because we pay MONEY yearly to subscribe to the service, so when you ask us for a stock image, we charge you MONEY to offset the cost of the subscription. Dumbass. The same guy inspired this post (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=299181&postcount=16).
urstwile
08-17-2007, 02:13 AM
When I buy bulk groceries, I go to someplace like BJs. I don't expect the same price from my grocery store. :D
Me neither! It's Costco or Smart and Final if we're buying in bulk.
Calligirl
08-17-2007, 11:31 AM
Not exactly on topic but someone said something similar and I wanted to emphasize the point - whenever you give a discount or pro bono work, make sure you give the client an invoice with your FULL amount on it and the discount marked or no charge so they will know that it is your CHOICE. Let them know what you are worth even if they are not paying for it at that time.
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives
08-17-2007, 12:40 PM
There's now almost 6000 stupid client comment stories at Clientopia (http://www.clientcopia.com/top.php).
- J.
carter the artist
08-17-2007, 04:13 PM
When I was in Pre-Press at the sign shop, my boss told us what one of our clients told him.
The client was a GD who came to us for a LOT of work. He told my boss how his clients would try to talk down the price by blaming the printer. They would tell him "why not tell the printer that the colors are not close enough, so we can save a bit." Knowing full well the colors matched as well as possible!!
raerae
08-17-2007, 04:38 PM
I once got "We need a logo (blablabla) so please send three to five sample logos of what you would do for a company called XXX that does YYY and we'll determine which designer we'll choose." WHAT?? I e-mailed back and explained that my time is valuable and if they can find someone to conceptualize for free then good for them.
budafist
08-18-2007, 03:29 AM
I once got "We need a logo (blablabla) so please send three to five sample logos of what you would do for a company called XXX that does YYY and we'll determine which designer we'll choose." WHAT?? I e-mailed back and explained that my time is valuable and if they can find someone to conceptualize for free then good for them.
Good on ya.
ArchVis
08-18-2007, 04:39 AM
This was today:
Them: We really like the work we saw on your website, and we'd like you to design a stone sign for the entry to a subdivision so we can bid it, and then do a really detailed color rendering to help us land the job."
Me: Ok, based on the dimensions you're looking at about $XXX for me to do that.
Them: Well, we're just at the RFP phase, so we wouldn't have to pay you unless we won the bid, right?
Me: Ummm, no. See, I've provided the service whether you land the job or not.
He then argued with me about my refusal to wager 6-8 billable hours on his sales and estimating abilities. Okaybye, thanks for your interest!
Dave
budafist
08-18-2007, 05:11 AM
Tell them you've seen their showhomes and would like them to build you a 4 bedroom, 2 bathroom (1 being an ensuite) house.
Of course other companies will also be building you similar houses. Whoever builds the best house, will get paid.
People that want spec work even after they've viewed portfolios really annoy me.
greyghost
08-19-2007, 02:39 PM
I have lots of stories.
One that I get from time to time is, "yes, we'll sign your contract, but could you start work right away? This is due in X hours!" (we all know... they won't sign the contract, they're hoping you feel the pressure and start working even without it).
Listen, honey... poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. Sign the contract, pay the deposit PLUS the rush fee, I'll get to work. K?
JamesW
08-22-2007, 06:07 AM
Clients are a different breed than graphic designers... thier career path was chosen due to entirely different intentions...
These people fold right away when questioned, showing their real intent.
One group wanted a spec package design for a brewery. I said fine, show me verifed monthly delivery of product showing you're a going concern. Result: Never head from them again.
Another wanted 10 of their images photo retouched before I get paid (of course, this is after seeing examples). I said fine, provide a list of graphic designers you've paid for photo retouching so I may confirm. Never heard from them again.
Get the "do my children's book for royalties" people? Ask them for a signed contract or a track record of published books, and a contact at the publisher who can confirm sales.
Perfectly reasonable requests given the investment they are blindly asking me to make. Yet this goes over like asking a telemarketer for their home phone number so you can call them back.
You don't have to use examples like the "give me five free houses." Just call them on their own behavior. Scammers will bow out way before you have to spend a minute contemplating whether to do the work or think up a snappy retort.
Sounds like you've experienced a lot of the same things I have DC1!
It's a shame clients try to pull stunts like this. Sure, some times it's unintentional (and you want to give people the benefit of the doubt). Nevertheless, there are a lot of clients out there that are trying to get as much as they can out of their designer, and pay/commit as little as possible. It’s kind of a shame.
I had one client recently tell me that she really needed help on developing the content for her brochure. She needs a 1-2 hour strategy session, and she’s been with me long enough that she knows it. Instead of saying, “Hey, I need to book some time with you”. She offered to buy me lunch and cover her strategy during that time.
Loose translation: I pay $10 for your lunch and you give me a 1-2 hour strategy session. I politely let her know I could buy my own lunch, and reemphasized what my rate per hour was.
____________________
jeremy
http://beingastarvingartistsucks.typepad.com (http://beingastarvingartistsucks.typepad.com/)
greyghost
08-23-2007, 02:14 AM
what is it with clients that think buying you lunch is a way to avoid the hourly fee? ROFL!
budafist
08-23-2007, 02:24 AM
What about if lunch was in another location? :D
...the funny thing was that she thought she was doing such a great thing by offering lunch - like she was doing me a favor. Truth be told, she's a nice person, but a bad client.
By the way, after I emailed that the in-person meeting would cost her, she inquired about a teleconference. Pathetic.
_____________
jeremy
http://beingastarvingartistsucks.typepad.com (http://beingastarvingartistsucks.typepad.com/)
SpugNothuson
08-23-2007, 06:46 AM
I've only accepted lunch intead of payment for a consultation once. And thats because I'm a man and therefore weak, she was purty! :p
I would always try to find a way to say "yes" then turn it back on them in a way that makes them think about what they're trying to do. Without actually saying anything explicit or mocking.
More like using such situations to deliver a micro course on Freakonomics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics).
For example the "Lunch in Trade for service." I would (attempt) to work in making up the difference in one of those gift certificates many restaurants offer.
Another way to "turn this around" is to have a client-get-a-client program. In other words, you get me a client (a client, not a prospect) and earn that time -- no lunch buying required. This is a common practice in many marketing programs and provides a counter argument which heads off the lunch thing.
I would almost never do a one-on-one lunch thing where you train clients to devalue what you're bringing to the table. A networking event, where the client introduces you to five, ten or fifteen members of their network is something different. In that case, I would use the sponsor client's project (doesn't have to be a new project) as the central point of the discussion. This would very much be a pitch for services, but more information-based and low key.
Gripe threads fit in other sections. This shows the business aspect. Does it work with scammers? Not really. However, when you're talking about giving people the benefit of the doubt, this is a stealthy way for suspects to show you their true colors.
If you just give people enough rope to hang themselves, with a little luck your work is done.
Sites like Clientcopia show people are willing to put in a lot of time and effort griping. What remains to be seen is willingness to divert that energy towards experiments with some chance of a payoff. That's a business topic.
ArchVis
08-23-2007, 05:27 PM
DC1- great post! I've been selling for years and like to feel that I can read people. The guy in my example, I honestly believe, hadn't really thought through what I go through to get him a finished drawing, OR that a day doing that for him was a day not doing billable work. I explained my processes and my expectations, and that got him at least invested enough to send me an email reiterating our conversation and giving me his contact info. So, we'll see where it goes. In the meantime, can I call what you suggest "sales judo?"
Dave
...can I call what you suggest "sales judo?"
Sounds good. ...I studied TKD/Hapkido (Korean Jujitsu), but still very apt.