The Importance of Choice, Sight and Design

[GoM]

Quite a pompous title for a newbie, isn't it? Especially one who's been pro-actively involved in the design world, and even in a bit part, for the better part of 4 months.

Besides the point.

My internship has taught me to see. Not just ads, but everything really. Going into this past summer, I figured it'd be something that I'd definately apply myself at, but maybe not go full out at; basically, I didn't see myself getting emotionally vested in it. Which, granted, I didn't too much, but it's not so much the work I was working on that I now have a vested interest and eye in/for. It's everything else that comes from it.

Ads take on a whole new meaning when you've worked on them. Through that, society. I know about 3 fonts by sight, my colour perception is horrid and most of the time I wouldn't be able to pick a nuance out of a line. That said, anybody with a reasonable eye can, through simple involvement on the periphery of art and design, gain a whole new appreciation for the minutae of the world. Subway tile patterns. The meanings of colours. Why somebody wears a particular hat with a particular coat.

This is, of course, assuming I have a reasonable eye, which I don't pretend to.

Photography has, in just the year or so I've been involved with it, taught me to see the world as I would throw a viewfinder. Design has taught me to turn that 2-dimensional 'flat' image of an ad, a subway tile or a person and turn into a 3-dimensional object full of (un)intentional meaning and purpose.

Example.

In this week's Sports Illustrated, within the first 10 or 20 pages there's an ad for a beer I haven't heard of. The ad itself is mediocre at best, but the font they used completely turned me off even wanting to try the drink. Think a cross between Rockwell (or whatever the "high school"-type font is) and Cyrillic.

Point is, before this summer, I wouldn't've even taken a second look at the whole package. Which I guess is what my point to this little ramble is.

Design is everywhere. Only now do I see it.

[Ned]

Deep...

[Kesh]

Yeah, you'll start noticing things everywhere. People abusing the Papyrus font, stock photos you've seen before, lens flare effects.

[Typically]

whats wrong with lens flairs? :D

[Virgo Nightingale]

It is amazing the things you notice now that you know what to look for, even if you're only looking subconsciously. I've been getting a TON of wedding-services postcards in the mail, and I constantly find myself critiquing them, whether it's for the horribly up-sampled images, cliché script fonts, too-tight leading, over-used blurs & drop shadows... I could go on and on. Makes me want to offer my design services in exchange for their services for my wedding! :D

[tZ]

I crit everything- what a surprise,lol

[carter the artist]

whats wrong with lens flairs? :D
nothing, just the abuse.

Btw, I had some of these thoughts this weekend. I saw some add with a font that I am getting sick of, Damned Serpentine!!!

Please people quit using that font, just for lil' ol' me.

[tZ]

really… serpentine.

I rarely ever see that font. As a matter of fact I don't think I have evr seen that font outside of my computer,lol. Maybe I need to look harder.

[teniworks]

Serpentine? Unfortunately, the font that seems to be overused where I'm from is Scriptina. It should not be used for television and every formal invitation known to man! There...I feel better now.

[hewligan]

Serpentine seemed to be everywhere around here a few years back. WHich is why I stopped using it, despite the fact I've always kinda liked it. :(

[ArchVis]

Bank Gothic seems to be the ubiquitous font now. I let my designer talk me into putting it in my logo (over my objections) and now it's EVERYWHERE.

[BJMRGTIVR6]

mmmm... Chipotle.

well, for years now I have been telling my wife what fonts were what on screen/magazines/billboards and everywhere else. I would tell her if I had it or not too...and lately which Font House and other stuff she doesn't care about.

BUT...it is paying off, after telling her about leading and kerning and tracking, she can tell me that something doesn't look right and why (or close enough as she gets tracking/kerning a bit confused).

[ArchVis]

Exactly! Gripes me every time I go for a carnitas burrito.

[Kesh]

I hate this font.

http://www.bridgerfolk.org/papyrus.jpg

I even see it on TV.

[Rizz]

When I worked pre-press back east, we had a client that used Papyrus in their logo. Of course, it wasn't the use of the font that always had me laughing.

It was the logo graphic itself that had me grinning from ear to ear. I wish I knew who designed it. It was a line-drawing of the bell tower in the client's main building. And it looked like a penis.

I always thought it suited them cause they were all dicks...

I've used Serpentine for a few jobs. Few and far between.

Eh, what was the topic on this thread again?

-Rizz

[frankster]

I always find myself noticing rotten kerning and sometimes things that have hideous trapping too. Cereal boxes are buggers for the wacky trapping.

[Alan G]

Then (in the US and many other countries) there's the parentheses around phone number area/city codes. You can instantly tell the amateurs because they leave them on the baseline instead of bumping them up a point or two so they align with the figures.

[urstwile]

:confused: I was never taught that as a typographic rule, Alan. Parentheses generally sit just a bit below the baseline and above the ascender, since they encompass the info within.

[hewligan]

No offense Alan, but is that a way to spot amateurs or just designers under 40?

I mean, I've heard of most of the typographic rules you and Urst talk about (including that one), but that's because I'm the kind of design nerd who reads articles on typographic conventions for fun.

At the same time, I'm pretty sure that most of my tutors at school didn't know this stuff. When I had senior designers above me, I'm pretty sure they didn't know this stuff. The modern world of design has what I shall politely describe as a more relaxed attitude to these sorts of thing.

Pity, really. It's pretty interesting. In a distinctly nerdy sort of way ;)

[Alan G]

Under 40? -- Gee, that was a long time ago, so maybe I've forgotten. No, it's just that parens are aligned for lowercase, so when placing them around figures or uppercase you have to tweak them up a tad. They're okay (on small letters) but not (ON BIG ONES) where they are visually too low. Same with (123). It's with phone numbers that it seems to show up the most:

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/5215/phonesoc2.th.jpg (http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phonesoc2.jpg)

Some faces are worse than this -- downright offensive. Some (like Myriad) are more forgiving.

This isn't one I learned in school, either, but it's one I've insisted on since I was taught it, lo, these many years ago.

[urstwile]

I'll bet you lower the dots on the lowercase "i's" as well Alan, am I right? :D

[Alan G]

hewligan, I don't think it's a "modern" thing. And it's not a matter of being a geek. What you're talking about is missing craftsmanship. Craftsmanship, which is what schools ought to teach, comes before art and is what permits art. You can have technique without art, but you can't have art without technique.

There are basics like kerning, lining stuff up, not mixing incompatible fonts, composition. They are rules because they make stuff look right, not because some professor said so (or failed to). You can break them, of course you can, but only if you know them in the first place and (under my art direction, anyway) can articulate why in 25 words or less, if it's not instantly obvious.

All else being equal, craftsmanship is what makes the difference between something that looks good, and something that really zings.

[Alan G]

I'll bet you lower the dots on the lowercase "i's" as well Alan, am I right? :D

lol! :D:D

Currently, I'm having a great time with a young(ish) designer who's very creative, terrifically talented, but in four years of art and design school was never taught some (many) of these simple basics. She's blossoming, full of enthusiasm, and delighted with the huge difference in her work. Because she now understands why some of her stuff looked phenomenal and other stuff didn't, she can push into new territory with a much better "toolkit" than she had before (and, yes, break the rules when it's the right thing to do), so her creative horizons have suddenly expanded. I love that.

[frankster]

Well, I find this stuff interesting too. Alan and Urst! You should post a thread on the often ignored "old school" typographic minutia. From your postings it seems there's a wealth of pent up knowledge that's either not or seldom being taught in school. You too Hewligan! Or if you're too busy, a nudge in the direction of some good books (preferably ones that are still in print and don't cost squillions. ;) :D

[hewligan]

lol! :D:D

Currently, I'm having a great time with a young(ish) designer who's very creative, terrifically talented, but in four years of art and design school was never taught some (many) of these simple basics. She's blossoming, full of enthusiasm, and delighted with the huge difference in her work. Because she now understands why some of her stuff looked phenomenal and other stuff didn't, she can push into new territory with a much better "toolkit" than she had before (and, yes, break the rules when it's the right thing to do), so her creative horizons have suddenly expanded. I love that.

Man, I wish I'd been working for you when I first started out :)

[Tea]

I would love to see that thread started! I did not know about the parentheses with numbers. Excellent little tidbit to carry. Of course I never had a typography class either, since I didn't major in GD.

[Virgo Nightingale]

I took a typography class, and that whole parenth. thing was never mentioned! And now it will be one of those things I subconsciously critique on everything I see! Thanks! I think...

[Typically]

Thanks! I think...

hahahaha... yea i was never taught that in my typo class either. like virgo said yet another thing to scrutinize =]

[SpugNothuson]

I have a bunch of mates who're 5 years or so younger than me and they're all just finishing their Graphic Design degrees. It shocks me the things that I know and consider to be standard practice that they're clueless about.

Remedy, I'll be a guest speaker at my local University later in the year. I think I may take a cane.

[Broacher]

>>Quite a pompous title for a newbie, isn't it? Especially one who's been pro-actively involved in the design world, and even in a bit part, for the better part of 4 months.

Besides the point.<<

Not really. In fact, in many ways, newcomers have a tremendous advantage over their 'senior' counterparts: fresh eyes that are connected to brains that are closer to the viewpoint of the 'un-designer' readers. Which is why you should be writing your observations down in the early stage. Don't just learn the theory or practice-- test it, question it, challenge it. And if possible, don't get buried in the swamp of design minutiae (which, as you can already see by the response here, is a fairly deep trap!). Don't lose sight of the big pictures: the words, the message, the concept. Develop the critical thinking skills that make the difference BEFORE things like font selection, layout, colours. That all comes after you've snagged that winning concept.

Design as a career is a journey. Don't be afraid to wander into the backstreets, swim in the sewers, get dropped into the jungles. Or to sometimes walk instead of run. And most of all... to take the time to really talk to the natives. You 'young-ins' have no idea how big an advantage the internet (and things like this forum) have given you in that regard! Enjoy the trip!

[frankster]

Sure Brocher, but I want it all! I'm curious about most stuff. What colour is your underwear? ;)

[Alan G]

Man, I wish I'd been working for you when I first started out :)

lol! She says that at least three times a week, interspersed with "Where were you 15 years ago when I was in school?" I'm floored by the stuff nobody bothered to point out, and it's a shame because she's phenomenally creative.

Then, too, she grew up with Quark, so she's never really learned the InDesign toolkit. Every time I show her something new, she beams, gets excited, and a few hours later comes up something that just blows me away. I do a bit of "why don't you [insert fine detail tweak here]..." and she turns it into a gem.


I had some qualms about going back into the corporate world, despite the very tempting offer I finally accepted, but this part of the job makes it just a whole lot of fun.

[mojoprime]

that's an awesome experience, alan. when i try to do the same with a designer i work with, i'm met with some resistance, though i do try to approach it from a completely disarming point.

in the old days, i'd get into it sometimes for "cleaning up" other people's designs, but cleaning up only to the point of fixing ellipses, kerning (that was obviously bad), poorly connected lines (just from sloppy work, but from a design standpoint, etc.)

i think some younger designers are more open to constructive criticism than others. some take it as an afront. man, i'd been drummed out of this business a long time ago with that attitude. i still sort of look at the biz from a "trade" standpoint, like the old days when you'd have to apprentice with someone, like a printer. i mean, you can learn a lot in a classroom, but hook yourself with an older designer, a mentor, and consume and memorize everything they do and why they do it. ask questions. dissect their projects. then try to improve on them. but above all, respect that they've been where you're at, and made it through to a higher place ont he totem pole, so they have to know something. find out what it is and make it your own.

[WannaBrie]

I, too took several typo clases and never learned that paren thing...just shows that there is always more to learn in this industry. One of the reasons I love it...Alan, I would love to pick your brain sometime, I seriously envy your junior designer, its great that she knows how lucky she is to have someone like you showing her the ropes!

[Broacher]

Sure Brocher, but I want it all! I'm curious about most stuff. What colour is your underwear? ;)

What is this 'underwear' of which you speak?

You might WANT it all -- but the skill is knowing when to stop at what you really NEED.

And getting back out of my underwear for a second, that's what I'm saying. Too often I see new designers become so obsessed with the process that they quickly lose sight of the objectives-- or lose touch with the 'ignorant masses' who couldn't give two spits over the apparent distinction between Baskerville and Palatino, or the difference between brand and logo, Pantone and Duotone, etc. We take care of all that stuff because we know it's important to the overall effort, but we can't let the technical load overwhelm our connection with the communication goals. Which is why a lot of us have bosses, I suppose.

But do you know what I mean? So many designers get trapped in being part of the story, and not being the storyteller.

Ugh. Cliche limit exceeded. Back to the sludge pool.

[urstwile]

I'd chalk a lot of that up to a lot of designers also wanting, or feeling they need to, do production. As well as a lot of designers feeling they're the end-all and be-all when it comes to anything of that nature, not just the forest, but also the trees.

I'm saddened often by an art director I work with who mistakenly thinks he has a sense of typography, when, in fact, he really doesn't. When I, the mere production artist who came up through the ranks of type shops and learned from some really great typographers, points something out to him, it's always a crap shoot, because, after all, what do I know? :rolleyes:

[Alan G]

I know what you mean, mojo. I work with someone else, an executive type, who learned most of what he knows on his own. "You think I'm much too picky, don't you?" I asked him, after he huffed about my objections to a page where the text was mostly center-aligned, partly left-aligned, and used no identifiable framework. (This is after we'd finally established that no, you don't put two spaces after a period in proportionally spaced text.)

"Well, yes. I have a different opinion about that."

"On opinions, I'm open to discussion," says I, "but rules is rules. They exist for a reason, not because I said so." To his credit, he's grasped that I'm not faulting his abilities, but his craftsmanship, and he's starting to read and apply the things I'm recommending to him. It was an uphill battle for a while, though.

The only people you really can't work with are the ones who already "know" and won't have it suggested otherwise. Their sensitivity comes from the fact that they know they're incompetent, but they think if anyone found out their security would be threatened. Best left alone, but if you must work with them, find something (anything) they're actually right about and agree fervently. This might allow them the self-confidence to change their point of view on other things. Works great with youngsters just out of school.

[urstwile]

The only people you really can't work with are the ones who already "know" and won't have it suggested otherwise. Their sensitivity comes from the fact that they know they're incompetent, but they think if anyone found out their security would be threatened. Best left alone, but if you must work with them, find something (anything) they're actually right about and agree fervently. This might allow them the self-confidence to change their point of view on other things. Works great with youngsters just out of school.
Although you responded to Mojoprime's post, Alan, what you said also resonates with me, althoug I disagree slightly with your assesment that it's based on insecurity. In fact, in the example I stated with the art director I work with, I think it's often based on a misguided sense of superiority, i.e., a production artist can't possibly know better than an art director what better typography is. At least, that's the vibe I get off of the one guy I work with, who often makes typography choices I disagree with. But because he's the art director he ends up winning in the end. My years of experience working with type don't factor in at all.

[Alan G]

You may well be right, usrt. In my experience people who have to assert their superiority usually have at least a sneaking suspicion that they're lacking. Humility is impossible for someone who feels threatened. I'd suspect he sees your knowledge as a threat, and compensates by being condescending and asserting his own viewpoint.

[Alan G]

Alan, I would love to pick your brain sometime

Hey, pick your own brain! (Sheesh...) :D

Really, all I do is pass on the stuff I've learned. This is partly from necessity, and partly because I love to share what I know. Most of it's really easy to come by these days in books, podcasts, online forums (what about those fabulous resource threads that Morea and the rest have put together?), and in picking over every magazine, ad, book and billboard I see to find stuff that's good and figure out how they did it.

You're right, though. Learning never stops. Hell, just keeping up with the software is almost a full-time occupation. ("Almost"? -- Scott Kelby et al make a living at it!)

[hewligan]

Hey, pick your own brain! (Sheesh...) :D

Look out, Alan - the ladies around here often get a bit literal when they talk about picking brains. They like to do it with a spoon :D

[urstwile]

You may well be right, usrt. In my experience people who have to assert their superiority usually have at least a sneaking suspicion that they're lacking. Humility is impossible for someone who feels threatened. I'd suspect he sees your knowledge as a threat, and compensates by being condescending and asserting his own viewpoint.
Actually Alan, I think there's another category of people who've never been told that they're wrong, so they're continually right, even when they're wrong, if that makes any sense. I speak of those with an overly high sense of self-esteem (yup, they're out there) who feel that their opinions weigh more than those around them. That's what this guy is like.

To be fair, by the way, he's a really nice guy, most of the time, I think he just has an exceedingly high opinion of himself.

[urstwile]

Hewligan, I'm starting a list of people to go after with my spoon. :D

Alan might have made the list before you, in fact. :D

[Alan G]

Look out, Alan - the ladies around here often get a bit literal when they talk about picking brains. They like to do it with a spoon :D
I say... how frightfully -- er -- oriental.

[urstwile]

To comfort you a bit, hopefully, Alan, it all started, I think, when I referenced my husband's oft-said phrase to me, which is "I want to lick your brain". Something he says whenever I say something that blows him away. But once Budafist got into the mix, it turned all foody, and well, the rest is history. :)

[Alan G]

To be fair, by the way, he's a really nice guy, most of the time, I think he just has an exceedingly high opinion of himself.
Ah, that type, like the archetypical Valley girl? Unfortunately, that type lacks the ability to observe, which of course includes self-perception... :rolleyes:

[Alan G]

TBut once Budafist got into the mix, it turned all foody, and well, the rest is history. :)

How gruely grimsome! Well, I didn't pick my brain. Everyone else got there early, and it was the only one left...

[Alan G]

Hey, y'all. A propos this thread and an earlier one where I pontificated about how technology drives style, here's a great article I found via the InDesign listserv, about 70's typography (http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/25824.html?cprose=daily).

[Samakimoto Graphics]

Gawd! I loooove this thread :). Don't stop, don't stop...

Even with a few years under my belt, I only learnt about the parenthesis pointer late last year. It's also the reason I'm leaving a cushy job to go back and apprentice some more. I've done some interesting apprenticeships in my time - tailoring (enjoyed the conceptualising part of it more than the practical), stage design (loved every step), product design (enjoyed the conceptualizing part than the practical) ... Until I finally settled on GD. I can authoritatively testify that this is the best way to learn outside the classroom.

In my current job I've a had a great mentor, though the current work set up does not allow for much direct interaction... more corporatety than creative.

[Alan G]

Love that quote in your sig, Samakimoto. Now urstwile and I have to go sleep, 'coz it's late at night. Hear me, urst?

[urstwile]

As a parenthesis to the parenthisis post by Alan, I just want to add that this is something we never did, ever. And I find this interesting, actually. Because it means there is a set of limits or boundaries as to how picky does one get when dealing with this stuff.

Typical things I encountered as a typesetter turned typographer: turning hyphens into n-dashes, lowering dots on the i's when type was above about 24 point, making sure that we actually broke the typography rules if we were using a typewriter styled typeface (like American Typewriter for example), where we'd, on purpose, put extra spaces after the period, to mimic the style of typewriter typing, and often also opened up the wordspacing to mimic that style as well.

My big bugaboo was always underscores. We kerned around the descenders (with code, this was pre-WYSIWYG days), now, it's almost impossible to do that without creating a special font (which I've done), and plus, the weight of the underscores are always too fat.

My biggest pet peeve is the non-typographer quotes (aka curly quotes). I can't abide them, they jump out in front of me, seemingly, and it really devalues a design, as niggly as that is, when I see them.

Part of the point here being, I wonder where some of these rules came from? I think many of them are aesthetically apt, but one wonders, am I the only one who sees that as the bad choice, or are there others? And what does the public see.

>>>throws the mackerel of subjectivity out there for the tunas to feed on.

[Jam]

Point is, before this summer, I wouldn't've even taken a second look at the whole package. Which I guess is what my point to this little ramble is.

Design is everywhere. Only now do I see it.

It happens to all of us - I did a film course at uni and now never really see the films in the same way - I can predict who will die, when and how, I can jump in half way through a film I have not seen and tell you after five minutes how it ends!!

Needless to say my wife hates me if I tell her any of this - she also hates not knowing whats going on so I can't win!!

[hewligan]

The type rules just kind of developed out of hundreds of years of experimenting with type. Really, rules is the wrong word for them - though a good way to drive home the point to young designers ;) . They're guidelines to what people, who unless you're really, really good, probably knew better than you, found gave set type it's maximum legibility.

Those guidelines are a long way from absolute, though. The sans serif font is of relatively recent vintage, but dominates modern typography - and many of the traditional rules that were developed based on older font styles really don't necessarily apply quite the same to them.

Modern software also plays a part in changing the rules, too.

And never forget, the best designers made their living breaking what they were told were the rules - but they did it with purpose and style.

[Alan G]

My big bugaboo was always underscores. We kerned around the descenders (with code, this was pre-WYSIWYG days), now, it's almost impossible to do that without creating a special font (which I've done), and plus, the weight of the underscores are always too fat.

Best way to handle underscores in InDesign: Set up a character style that puts a white (paper) stroke of appropriate weight on the outside of the characters. Underscores are always below the text in the stacking order, so the paper stroke "breaks" the underscore appropriately. David Blatner pointed out recently that this also works for things like callout hairlines: you use a double-line stroke style, make the stroke color "paper" and the gap fill color balck (or whatever). Voila! A stroke with a neat gap to pop it out of a background.

The weight, color and offset of the underscore itself are all adjustable in InDesign.

[Alan G]

And never forget, the best designers made their living breaking what they were told were the rules - but they did it with purpose and style.

A point I make often enough, hewligan. My sneaky, 'orrible test on it is: "... if you can tell me which rule and why you broke it." The response is either a blush or a good, articulate (and hopefully) inspired reason.

[mojoprime]

i try real hard to avoid underscores as much as possible, even to the point of setting (for our corporate style) URLs in boldtype to get away from it. sometimes, you just can't get away from it. i set up custom styles for it in indesign and quark, but when you're working with two other designers that aren't as nerdy about it as you are, it's almost impossible to implement as a hard-and-fast rule, more like hewligan says, guidelines.

[Alan G]

Let me guess mojo: you're also Tier 1 tech support for all your friends and family. Me too. Anyhoo...

Underscores in Indy can be really useful, though: when you have to add "highlighter" to a piece of text in one of those kinds of promotional letter, or you just want a nice reversed-out character style for a paragraph running head, it's a breeze to put a 14 point underscore behind the text and save it as a character style. Beats hell out of putting little colored boxes under the text and repositioning them every time there's a copy edit, which is what my education-starved designer gal was doing.

[Alan G]

Jam -- my son has the same problem. He works in the movie industry (lighting and sfx) and it's almost impossible for him to be an "audience."

[mojoprime]

hee hee, alan. how did you guess? i'm also second and third tier for my wife's office.

and yeah, now the highlighter effect i use all the time. and 1/2 point rules instead of leader dots on tables.

[GoM]

Damn, this is the thread that just keeps on going.

The only other kind of metaphysical question I have atm would be the usual does-society-influence-design-or-does-design-influence-society debate. I mean, nowadays, 'grunge'/'indie'-style graphics, both on t-shirts as well as some campaigns (I am by no means an expert, but the kind of style I'm thinking of is similar to some of the Starbucks ads I've seen recently around Toronto. A couple bright, but not pure colours (ie. off-yellow, off-brown, etc), silhouetted figures, cut-and-paste style, etc), is huge. Yet, when it's done tastefully, it looks fantastic; like anything, it's all in moderation. However, were I not exposed and at least a tiny bit aware of what the design and colours are, I wonder if I'd find the style attractive at all?

I guess taste reflects itself in everything from design to architecture to jewellery to cars to cartoons. Ultimately it all changes, but I like to think that I like the appearence of something because it fits within my personal taste values, and not because it's so ever-present that there are few alternatives. However, who really knows?

[tZ]

Thats deep,lol

Would be a good thesis.

Honestly, I can't answer that. If I had to though I would say a little of both. I don't think either one dominates the decisions we make but, its a mixture.

[Broacher]

One of the big reasons I'd love to jettison the term 'design' from our job title is that in the last few years the meaning of the word has been sucked so far into that blackhole of corporate branding machinery (which we're all part of, he said, acknowledging the irony) that it's now as about as meaningful to most people as the word 'quality' was in the 50's, the word 'natural' was in the 60's (though I see that's coming back!) and what? 'Low-fat' for this decade?

Just about any product you can think of has some company somewhere, creating a 'design' model or series of it. Which kind of begs the question, does that mean everything else arose out of spontaneous industrial creativity? It's not 'design' that produces quality products, it's quality conscious producers. And if it's mass-produced, only in 'designer styles' or colours, what the heck is that supposed to mean?

Sometimes it's enough to make me throw up my designer lunch.

[frankster]

Sometimes it's enough to make me throw up my designer lunch.

Been shopping at Starbucks again Broacher?:) I'd be ranting too if I had an inch cubed of sweaty pasturised Brie and a water cracker for lunch. ;)

[Broacher]

Actually, designer lunch today was a superb sweet potato/squash soup designed and lovingly constructed by this grateful dad's teenage daughter. It was so good-- too bad she didn't write down the recipe!

[PrintDriver]

What is 'design' really but catering to the largest mass of people possible to sell the product in question. Whether it's corporate or educational, the intent is to be 'attractive' to the audience. The audience isn't always aware of the intent but they are aware of the attraction. They may not know why something appeals to them when seen on TV or in a magazine or even in an educational exhibit, but the fact that they noticed the 'product' and were 'attracted' to it fulfills the designer's goal. Now whether the designer is catering to the crowd or the crowd is responding to the design? There's a thesis question.

Your Starbucks ads sound like the original Apple iPod ads. Apple's ad campaigns seem to always push the leading edge and they do seem to know their audience. I can't even list more people than fingers on one hand that I know have macs who aren't designers of some kind. ;) So tell me who is influencing who?

[GoM]

Well that's exactly it. It almost seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy that advertising, and by virtue the design world, will follow what's popular while at the same time creating popularity in and of itself. The iPod ads being an excellent example; that kind of minimalist-vibrant style has been parodied innumerably. As well, the whole advent of grunge/garage/stripped-down graphics seem to coincide with a similar trend in music. Ah, the power of the youth :p

[urstwile]

Best way to handle underscores in InDesign: Set up a character style that puts a white (paper) stroke of appropriate weight on the outside of the characters. Underscores are always below the text in the stacking order, so the paper stroke "breaks" the underscore appropriately. David Blatner pointed out recently that this also works for things like callout hairlines: you use a double-line stroke style, make the stroke color "paper" and the gap fill color balck (or whatever). Voila! A stroke with a neat gap to pop it out of a background.

The weight, color and offset of the underscore itself are all adjustable in InDesign.
Yes, actually, this is one of the things I'm learning to love about InDesign, although, equally fortunately, underscores are nowhere near as prevalent these days. Still, in Quark, there was just no way José to do that gracefully.

[urstwile]

I can't even list more people than fingers on one hand that I know have macs who aren't designers of some kind. ;) So tell me who is influencing who?

Hopefully I didn't misunderstand here, I found the way you phrased that a little confusing PD. But I know a fair amount of people (not huge) who have macs who are not designers. Sorry if your statement confused me. :confused:

[Alan G]

You'll be happy to know that José is through rehab and is now a reformed person. His personal revelation came when a vision of St. Pantone appeared, chiding him for his recalcitrant ways. He is now learning InDesign with all the intensity and fervor of the newly converted.

[Alan G]

None of my fingers have macs; on either hand. :D

[urstwile]

You'll be happy to know that José is through rehab and is now a reformed person. His personal revelation came when a vision of St. Pantone appeared, chiding him for his recalcitrant ways. He is now learning InDesign with all the intensity and fervor of the newly converted.
LOL Alan. :D

[budafist]

It takes time to recognise fonts and design elements and styles. I don't think it is a bad thing to crit everything you see around you. Just be sure to do it INSIDE YOUR HEAD. Husbands, wifes, boyfriends, girlfriends and family DO NOT CARE that billboard you just drove by was set in Cooper Black with a starburst and lensflare.

[tZ]

^ lol- how true it is

[GoM]

the only thing I can see myself saying aloud in the future is "that would look better in Bell Gothic" at every possible opportunity ;)

[PrintDriver]

Oh come on, your fingers don't have macs? I was trying the tZ method of sentence writing (jk tZ;)) No I don't know more than oh, hmm...3 non-designers who own macs, counting myself as a non-designer. And the other 2 have em cuz they are software illiterati who don't want to deal so intimitely with viruses and spyware.

It takes time to recognise fonts and design elements and styles. I don't think it is a bad thing to crit everything you see around you. Just be sure to do it INSIDE YOUR HEAD.
Malls are much more fun. Lots of 3D stuff there to see. :D

But the idea here originally was that the masses don't notice individual design elements so do they contribute to the look? Or is it the designers who recognize the elements that make up a selling design pulling the wool over the masses' eyes while staying trendy with what other designers are doing at any given moment in time?

[budafist]

The masses recognise a style but I don't think they could tell you the elements that make up that style. It's our job as designers to recognise the elements and crit them to figure out what works, what doesn't, why and why not and apply them to our own work.

A normal slightly GD knowing person might say a piece is "grunge". We should be able to bullet point a list of what makes it a grunge piece.

[PrintDriver]

But who decided that grundge, for instance, was a viable selling style? The designers? or the Masses who bought the first thing with a grundgy style?

If you say the Masses, then who is making up the rules and doing the designing?

[budafist]

It has got to be a bit of both.

I don't think designers could ever work in a vacuum and design without taking a peek at what people out there like.

Alternatively could we only ever keep designing in the same styles as what people trust and prove to buy? No new trends would come out. We would be stuck designing in the same style as things have always been designed in....what that would be I'm not so sure.

[tZ]

You should know better.

Its to late to be asking these kind of questions.

well… at least for me,lol

plus on a friday…

[Broacher]

But who decided that grundge, for instance, was a viable selling style? The designers? or the Masses who bought the first thing with a grundgy style?

If you say the Masses, then who is making up the rules and doing the designing?

Styling trends are often born from desperate masses of designers all trying to look more unique by copying (usually very poorly) the high priests of design who just as often follow the bishops and cardinals of fine art.

[Samakimoto Graphics]

One of the big reasons I'd love to jettison the term 'design' from our job title is that in the last few years the meaning of the word has been sucked so far into that blackhole of corporate branding machinery (which we're all part of, he said, acknowledging the irony) that it's now as about as meaningful to most people as the word 'quality' was in the 50's, the word 'natural' was in the 60's (though I see that's coming back!) and what? 'Low-fat' for this decade?...


Visual communicator?

[Alan G]

Styling trends are often born from desperate masses of designers all trying to look more unique by copying (usually very poorly) the high priests of design who just as often follow the bishops and cardinals of fine art.
Amen, reverend. Amen.

Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled designers yearning to breathe free...

[GoM]

Photoshop Flare - The last temptation?