The Day of the Graphic Desinger is numbered

[JamesW]

Wow... I really had no idea how widespread this working for free thing really is...

Look at the production flow going on over here... I'm sure some of you have seen it... sorry if it's already been posted everywhere else...

http://www.sitepoint.com/marketplace/contest/2687

$125.00 ( does that even fill a gas tank? )

[Broacher]

The day of the graphic designer who can spell is also numbird.

Though sometimes, I'd much rather be desinger than designer.

-Broacher
(WILL SING FOR BEER)

[Kool]

Considering the design that won, I think they got what they paid for.

[WannaBrie]

pathetic...

[John G]

lol deformed McDonald's sign.

The Day of the Graphic Desinger is numbered
if you suck

[PrintDriver]

I'm not worried.

[DesignVHL]

UNBELIEVEABLE! I think it is SERIOUSLY TIME for US DESIGNERS to stand up to this bullcrap! EVERY time I see this it makes me SO ANGRY! I realize not everyone can afford to spend over $200 for a nice company logo, but my god calling out and having a place for spec work! I think SitePoint should be ashamed of themselves! I really think a petition should be made to stop Spec work and I also think we should be writing emails to SitePoint asking them to take down their SPEC design CONTEST section! Sorry SO ANGRY!

[morea]

it's been like this for ages. At least now there are groups like www.no-spec.com educating people about spec work. There will always be lowballers, but there's a good article about lowballing here:

Educate Lowballers and Stop Lowballing (http://thecreativeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155)


Then read this - maybe it will make you feel better:

Why Designers Shouldn't Fear the 'Design it Yourself' Mentality (http://www.beadesigngroup.com/blog/archives/2006/06/why_designers_shouldnt_fear_th.php) (from Be a Design Group)


There will always be people who recognize quality and are willing to pay for it. Unfortunately, I am not convinced that there are enough of them to go around between all of the trained designers. But then again, our job title is just so sexy! :rolleyes:

[tZ]

90% of the "designers" on sitepoint produce garbage- their I said it.

There's much worst then that. The thing about sitepoint and online contest in general is you can't really sell your idea. The "client" in this case just goes off what they "think" is good design really they know absolutely nothing.

DESIGNVHL I stated my point and almost got banned- they don't care.

[Jackimalyn]

damn.

[DesignVHL]

i couldn't care less if they ban me...i'm posting a comment on every single contest linking to no-spec...let them ban me for what speaking my mind? My words have been said and sitepoint sux anyways for support...I come here.

i'm pretty sure i'll get banned but hey at least it educates a few designers who are on there who may actually have some talent!

[riverside]

yikes, that's unfortunate...

[cornerblue]

If you think the best way to get your message across is to copy paste your propoganda onto everyone's threads, then I feel sorry for you. There's a place for everything, and you should know better - you're not some 12 year old kid with no matters, you are 30 years old for Christ's sake!

No one is forcing you to work for free. If you don't feel the amount is enough to do the job, then don't do it. There are plently of people that could really use $120 and they could make a great logo in about an hour. (And unless you are driving an H2 with a leaking gas tank, $120 is more than enough to fill your gas)

I'm a website developer and the same issue exists for my industry - there are people willing to make sites for $100. That's their choice, it's not my "right" to go bashing them on their threads saying they are cheap labor.

Have some respect.

[Broacher]

And yet, people in the gutter are always reaching for the stars.

http://www.transmogrifier.org/ch-img/ch920907.gif

[DesignVHL]

Oh don't feel sorry for me corner, i may not have used the best words and I suppose I could have sounded more professional about it but I'm super passionate about this industry and when someone posted this today It really angered me - as I have NEVER seen anything that could Cheapen our industry anymore than this contest section - shame on site-point!

Look, I see nothing wrong with expressing my opinion on the matter, and I have a right to say whatever I want...i'm not selling anything, I am expressing my view - how else are us designers supposed to fight something like this? Even though it probably won't do any good, I still had to speak my mind....i know, i know lol...

Besides, I got banned as expected, which is just fine, SP has always stunk and I rarely used it...lol besides, its not like I can't re-sign up with a different email addy and do it again if i wanted to...which would be pathetic i know...and yeah I know it was unpro and childish on my behalf but i was PISSED! Sorry if it pisses me off that other designers are WILLING to do 4-6 hrs of FREE WORK and HOPE their design gets picked - WHEN IF they only realized that they can get paid for that actual time by working with loyal honest clients! You know i wouldn't even be doing this if i wasn't sitting here waiting for my boss to discuss a project! So I was just wastin' a bit of time....damn it i guess i shoulda just left it alone! ha oh well too late now....sometimes I should just stick my freakin' foot in my mouth...

REGARDLESS, I DID have numerous kind and positive responses from people asking me WHY i felt this way. I'm talking about potential clients posting for projects, AND a couple designers who told me that they didn't realize how much it DOES cheapen our industry...At least I was able to educate a few who are just getting started...So even if it was just to get a few people to see how us professional honest designers felt, then at least I communicated my point and some people can see where I am coming from.

I just think this all sucks....at least I can say I do honest good work, and don't piss my time away with my fingers crossed hoping my design gets picked....

One last thing: WHY in the hell would you want to pick a cheapie design out from a designer who can pull a logo out of their ass in a hour based on some crappy written cold uncommunicated spec? I don't know about you, but if I had my own business and needed a creative person, I'd prefer to WORK WITH my client and research their business and create something that would REALLY work well for them. THOSE are my type of client...ones who CARE about QuALITY and design and communication....Seems to me that most designers would put a red flag next to your name, your probably someone most of us wouldn't want to work with. Now that I think about it, most of the people posting projects on there are problably clients most of us would prefer NOT to work with...we call those Problem, or Pain in the ASS clients! :D

[Virgo Nightingale]

Have some respect.
Funny, I wish those who conducted contests like these would do the same. :rolleyes:

[D-signer.]

Wow... I really had no idea how widespread this working for free thing really is...

Look at the production flow going on over here... I'm sure some of you have seen it... sorry if it's already been posted everywhere else...

http://www.sitepoint.com/marketplace/contest/2687

$125.00 ( does that even fill a gas tank? )

Guess what, in some countries that fills the gastank and than some.
And see what countries some of the designers come from.
Remember how office jobs went to,..... India?
I know, we can`t life of it, but they certainly can.


And I go there to see how "customers" would be, I want this
and that looks better etc etc etc. and no, I never "win". I usually just
offer one idea.

[cornerblue]

I understand you wanted to get your frustration out. Believe me, I've been in the same boat - especially when the whole outsourcing to India craze had just begun. And I don't disagree with you either - you have a right to feel that contest sites are counterproductive. My only issue was where you were voicing your concern. That's all.

On that note, I would love to find a great logo / graphics designer. It's very nerve-wrecking when you are working with a desginer and your entire logo is based on what they can think of. The main benefit I see with the contest sites is the ability to see a lot of different perspectives and not be tied to one person or forced to pay for something you aren't going to use.

I'm willing to pay a fair price if I can find someone who really knows what they are talking about.

[DesignVHL]

Corner, I think there are a lot of GREAT designers on here (KOOL does awesome logo work) :) - HERE, we have a classified section for people looking for good design work.

I'm glad you can see our point of view here...and I should just mention also that MOREA, thank you for posting that article on why designers shouldn't fear...it DID make me feel better...now i gotta go pick up a tradeshow display banner at the printers! WEEEE! :)

Corner, your right maybe that wasn't the BEST place to voice my opinion, HOWEVER how else would those people on there be able to see and understand my point of view on the matter? I was simply expressing my thoughts I definitely wouldn't call it spamming..you want spam, hit one of my client's message boards, lol! :)

[Speedzilla]

It's funny Valerie, in the time it took you to post in all those contests, you could have used some of your masterful design skills to make a few hundred bucks at Sitepoint.

I make a good living as a graphic designer, but at my job I'm not always able to truly be creative. I have to adhere to corporate standards and guidelines which can make my day to day work somewhat repetitive.

However, I can go to Sitepoint, pick and choose what contest interest me, get a little creative and maybe pick up a little extra cash. If anything, it's a nice creative excercise.

Am I ruining the graphic design industry by offering my services at below normal rates? No, I'm not.

These are typically small basement start up companies looking for a decent brand image without having to spend thousands. The majority of these "clients" would never come to whatever big-buck design firm you represent.

Take a chill pill and forget that SP even exists...or join in and show your amazing talent.

[DesignVHL]

Guess what, in some countries that fills the gastank and than some.
And see what countries some of the designers come from.
Remember how office jobs went to,..... India?
I know, we can`t life of it, but they certainly can.


And I go there to see how "customers" would be, I want this
and that looks better etc etc etc. and no, I never "win". I usually just
offer one idea.


But honestly D-signer, those are NOT the type of clients you should want to work with...stick around here for a while and you WILL learn and understand a few things I think....We all work hard, and do fairly decently - we all have great advice to give, and to ask for :) I know this site has tremendously helped me out!

I'm not gonna live, I did a spec job once or twice...and then i realized on my own - what the hell am i doing! I could actually be getting PAID for this time spent on this design!

Real feedback with a client shouldn't be discussed on a message board...it should be done through emails, and over the phone....working with a client closely is so much better than than the sitepoint forum.

[DesignVHL]

Tell me something Speed - would you rather spend 2-3 hours in the evening creating something for someone and HOPE they pick your design, or work with someone and GUARENTEE that you get paid?? I do freelance in the evenings and weekends - I have worked HARD to get where I am at - i am inhouse and also have boring work, however my freelance work has allowed me to do stuff I Love to do being more creative! There are better ways to stay creative and do side work other than stooping so low as to work w/ sites like SP...but alas not everyone can see or understand this pov....sadly.

BTW i'm at work so I don't mix my freelance w/ my inhouse....had free time while boss was in a meeting...I've made $500 easily in one night....of course it was a late night... :P But at least i KNEW i was getting paid while I was working.

It's funny Valerie, in the time it took you to post in all those contests, you could have used some of your masterful design skills to make a few hundred bucks at Sitepoint.

I make a good living as a graphic designer, but at my job I'm not always able to truly be creative. I have to adhere to corporate standards and guidelines which can make my day to day work somewhat repetitive.

However, I can go to Sitepoint, pick and choose what contest interest me, get a little creative and maybe pick up a little extra cash. If anything, it's a nice creative excercise.

Am I ruining the graphic design industry by offering my services at below normal rates? No, I'm not.

These are typically small basement start up companies looking for a decent brand image without having to spend thousands. The majority of these "clients" would never come to whatever big-buck design firm you represent.

Take a chill pill and forget that SP even exists...or join in and show your amazing talent.

[cornerblue]

Look on the flip side Valerie, the client's perspective. Would you rather get a variety of choices and not be forced to pay for something you don't like or would you rather pick a single designer, and if they happen to never come up with something you truly like, pay them anyways?

[JamesW]

If you think the best way to get your message across is to copy paste your propoganda onto everyone's threads, then I feel sorry for you. There's a place for everything, and you should know better - you're not some 12 year old kid with no matters, you are 30 years old for Christ's sake!

No one is forcing you to work for free. If you don't feel the amount is enough to do the job, then don't do it. There are plently of people that could really use $120 and they could make a great logo in about an hour. (And unless you are driving an H2 with a leaking gas tank, $120 is more than enough to fill your gas)

I'm a website developer and the same issue exists for my industry - there are people willing to make sites for $100. That's their choice, it's not my "right" to go bashing them on their threads saying they are cheap labor.

Have some respect.

I'm sorry corner blue... But I have seen enough young people get walked all over... The bid wars I see on programming websites is absolutely disgusting and the same sort of philosphy is finally starting to do some real damage to the graphic design community...

Nobody guides these kids into the workforce... they come out of school working for free... they are never hired on full time... they are abused... and people profiteer off them... bottom line...

Spam is automated... I'm a human.


Also... If your "contests" were not obviously part of a production line I would think differently... You have actually cheaped the entire graphic design community because now everyone is begging for a crappy $120.00 handout... and all of the clients around the world are spreading the word about what a cheap and great service your offering... Eventually your tactic will make you a load of money and you'll put everyone out of a job...

You have no right.

[Jackimalyn]

There's a place for everything, and you should know better - you're not some 12 year old kid with no matters, you are 30 years old for Christ's sake!

And you're not drawing pretty pictures for mommy and daddy. you're working. Doing what you trained in school to do for a living.

[Virgo Nightingale]

This (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188523&postcount=7) is from one of this forum's FAQs. Several links to articles that explain why spec work and contests are not a good thing.

Personally I couldn't care less if you want to waste your time and talent working on something you probably won't see a dime from. I personally don't have that luxury.

The problem?

A): Clients who think this is the norm, that this is how all graphic design business is (or should be) conducted and label those of us who chose to NOT partake in this crap as difficult, overpriced and greedy.

B): Read the fine print for most of these contests. Even if you don't win, the contest holders maintain ALL rights to the work you've submitted – meaning they have every right use your work for their profit at a later time, and you see nothing from it. If that's not a rip-off, I don't know what is.

[Typically]

The main benefit I see with the contest sites is the ability to see a lot of different perspectives and not be tied to one person or forced to pay for something you aren't going to use.

well man that's what happens when you hire a designer. you like there style of work.

if i go to the supermarket and they have 5 different cheeses if i buy one and not the other ones the supermarket has still payed the company that made the other cheese regardless if it sells. this may not be the best example but i think it kinda works. options are good but you still have to pay for them.

[MikeTheVike]

haha, the winning one looks like a butt

[JgS]

^ I thought the same thing

[Drawing a Blank]

Look on the flip side Valerie, the client's perspective. Would you rather get a variety of choices and not be forced to pay for something you don't like or would you rather pick a single designer, and if they happen to never come up with something you truly like, pay them anyways?

That is part of the problem right there. You asume that just because you like it it is a good logo for your company. There is a lot more to a logo than the owner of the company "liking it" and that is why you hire a professional to create the image that will represent your company to the world. Did you know that the head of Nike didn't really like the swoosh at first but used it anyway? Did you know the CEO of IBM hated the IBM logo at first?

Would you go to a restaurant and ask the chef to make 7 meals and them present them to you so you could decide which one you wanted and then expect to pay only for the meal you ate?

[Drawing a Blank]

I understand you wanted to get your frustration out. Believe me, I've been in the same boat - especially when the whole outsourcing to India craze had just begun. And I don't disagree with you either...

If you understood you wouldn't have a logo contest going on at this very minute on SP.

[D-signer.]

But honestly D-signer, those are NOT the type of clients you should want to work with...stick around here for a while and you WILL learn and understand a few things I think....We all work hard, and do fairly decently - we all have great advice to give, and to ask for :) I know this site has tremendously helped me out!

I am sure it will, teach me something.
But I also need the exercise and the sitepoint site gives that.
I was into desigining when they still used "mecanorma" books
and those churgical knifes to cut out the designs etc. No computers
then. Got sidetracked, now work construction, and finally
found a computer drawing program I like to use.(xara xtreme pro)
So I picked up my old caling again.(why I gor sidetracked, you gotta
pay the bills, basically)


I'm not gonna live, I did a spec job once or twice...and then i realized on my own - what the hell am i doing! I could actually be getting PAID for this time spent on this design!


You could, I bet I couldn`t (yet).
Hope to get there eventually, as a carreer change, or as extra income


Real feedback with a client shouldn't be discussed on a message board...it should be done through emails, and over the phone....working with a client closely is so much better than than the sitepoint forum.

True, but to get some honest feedback, it might just work.
Forums might give you feedback, but you can`t be sure if it is just being polite or/and sparing your feelings.(or honest ofcourse ;))

But I do have some gripes with the sitepoint site, one of them is, that your
ideas are stolen, I have seen it happen many a time, even in the same contest. So one is feeding on your creativity. That bothers me sometimes.

[Jackimalyn]

i dont think you have to worry about people going easy on you in critiques here, or at all in this industry. its not what we do...

[Virgo Nightingale]

An example of why you should spend good money to have a professional design your logo:

http://i16.tinypic.com/4zks401.gif

This was the logo a local college used to use a long time ago. I believe it was done as a student design competition. Supposed to be based on the school's intials, BCC. Looks more like two public toilets. For YEARS the school was called "Toilet School." Now I have nothing against student design competitions, but this goes to show that just because you hold a contest to find your logo doesn't mean you're going to pick a good one.

[DesignVHL]

That is part of the problem right there. You asume that just because you like it it is a good logo for your company. There is a lot more to a logo than the owner of the company "liking it" and that is why you hire a professional to create the image that will represent your company to the world. Did you know that the head of Nike didn't really like the swoosh at first but used it anyway? Did you know the CEO of IBM hated the IBM logo at first?

*ALSO note that the designer that did the NIKE logo originally did it for pennies, and later, when Nike realized that this is THEIR BRAND, they went back and properly compensated the designer - it was some ridiculously large amount too that anyone of us would have liked! :P

[JamesW]

Now I have nothing against student design competitions, but this goes to show that just because you hold a contest to find your logo doesn't mean you're going to pick a good one.

Nobody does... There is nothing wrong with school competitions... This "contest" section is not a contest section... It is a bidding arena with no payment guaranteed...

It is disguised as a contest section... and everywhere this is slowly becoming the norm... It is common knowledge that to make money you must take advantage of those who knows no better...

http://toronto.craigslist.org/med/407366905.html

[DesignVHL]

lol thanks for sharing that virgo, that is classic!

An example of why you should spend good money to have a professional design your logo:

http://i16.tinypic.com/4zks401.gif

This was the logo a local college used to use a long time ago. I believe it was done as a student design competition. Supposed to be based on the school's intials, BCC. Looks more like two public toilets. For YEARS the school was called "Toilet School." Now I have nothing against student design competitions, but this goes to show that just because you hold a contest to find your logo doesn't mean you're going to pick a good one.

[Kool]

An example of why you should spend good money to have a professional design your logo:

http://i16.tinypic.com/4zks401.gif

This was the logo a local college used to use a long time ago. I believe it was done as a student design competition. Supposed to be based on the school's intials, BCC. Looks more like two public toilets. For YEARS the school was called "Toilet School." Now I have nothing against student design competitions, but this goes to show that just because you hold a contest to find your logo doesn't mean you're going to pick a good one.

LOL at "Toilet School". How did they get BCC out of that? I see ICC. :confused:

[DesignVHL]

teach me something.

To learn you have to read. :) Read as many of the threads on this forum as you can and i can guarentee you will learn more than just a something, you will learn a lot - a lot about this industry, working for clients, how to market yourself properly, best biz practices....


even if your just starting out, spec work is still bad, mmkay!

[Virgo Nightingale]

How did they get BCC out of that? I see ICC. :confused:
The C's are supposed to be the loops of the B.

Chalk up another reason to spend the money on a real professional.

[tZ]

I sadly have participated in three of these contest and in every one garbage woe. I can admit defeat but, in most cases the people are looking for eye candy over good/well thought out design. Sad… really. Then again you do get what you pay for. Luckily I didn't spend more then an 1hr on any of my submissions so its really not much of a loss,lol. However, I have seen a a few designs that pretty nice but, thats not the norm.

This has to one of my favorite submissions for a logo in a contest I entered:

http://sitepointstatic.com/contests/contestentries/2833/169832-large.jpeg

[JamesW]

I like what this poster had to say...

http://toronto.craigslist.org/med/407590931.html

http://toronto.craigslist.org/med/407015145.html
http://toronto.craigslist.org/med/405214041.html
http://toronto.craigslist.org/med/403060467.html
http://toronto.craigslist.org/med/402758118.html

( Nobody wants to pay graphic desingers anymore --- Your days are numbered )

Yes... I am a propagandist... but it's true

[DesignVHL]

This one is pathetic:

Looking (http://toronto.craigslist.org/med/407015145.html%5DLooking) for a 4th year (not necessary) graphic design student with a similar aesthetic as myself. I'll be upfront i can't offer a lot of pay but i think this project is perfect for building your portfolio with something interesting rather than corporate.

A little about me: i'm an art director for a design firm but looking to expand my personal creative ventures.

the project: need a website built that showcases my photography, paintings, stationary and the creative services i have to offer.

if this sounds interesting, please send me a brief description about yourself and a link to work you have done/ or send samples of your work.

sorry, i'll on contact those that i'm interested in.

For godsakes your an artdirector?

[Jackimalyn]

wtf does Compensation: Internship mean? The benefit youll get is working for them? BS

[Jackimalyn]

Try using CAPITALIZATION in a "formal" job request, moron.

[JamesW]

Okay... I'll admit it I hit up alot of forums... Most are simply skeleton sites set up to gain organic search refferals and then to eventually captilize on advertising. This is the only graphic desinger forum I have come across thus far which actually seems like a real community...

I've had the opportunity to pitch ideas to millionaires and have meetings with venture capitalists... the way they talk about media professionals is very humiliating... You guys are a trade... but one of the few without a union...

I suggest you guys watch your younger professionals in the field.

Non-Profit does not mean no payment...
On-spec will not gain you recognition...
Work for free on your own time...

Here's another post of interest...

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/med/376821551.html

[Seapony]

UNBELIEVEABLE! I think it is SERIOUSLY TIME for US DESIGNERS to stand up to this bullcrap! EVERY time I see this it makes me SO ANGRY! I realize not everyone can afford to spend over $200 for a nice company logo, but my god calling out and having a place for spec work! I think SitePoint should be ashamed of themselves! I really think a petition should be made to stop Spec work and I also think we should be writing emails to SitePoint asking them to take down their SPEC design CONTEST section! Sorry SO ANGRY!

NO!SPEC (http://www.no-spec.com/)

Wurd.

;)

[adethecat]

Hi,
I was sent a rather arsey email regarding a contest for a logo I started on Sitepoint.
I take on board your comments about cheap graphic design BUT I can't really afford $1000 for a company logo, a company which I hasten to add consists of just me and my brother who barely scrape enough work in gardening to make ends meet. To be honest any logo to us is better than no logo at all. I mean there are more expensive landscape gardeners than ourselves but we price accordingly to our clients budgets. We don't work for millionaire clients but for your average working class punter. If you pay peanuts you get get monkeys but unfortunately for us thats all we can afford. Perhaps you can design a logo for us for a reasonable amount ?
Ade

[Kool]

Hi Ade,

My yard really needs some work bad. I have a bad back so I can only work part time so I don't have much money. Would you and your brother come over and fix it all up? Next week I'm going to have another landscape company come and do the same thing, and again the following week. After all of you are done I will decide which of you did the best job then I'll pay that one. Sounds like a fair deal right?

[DesignVHL]

ade, i tried to respond to your PM - but your set to not accept PMs sooo when you can, i'd be glad to respond...actually I'll respond here:

What your asking really depends on the designer you choose....choosing a designer is like choosing any other company or service...research them, check out their work, see what you think. I've personally NEVER charged $1,000 for a logo, but yes many others have. I've been doing design now for about 9 yrs and I have learned quite a bit about this industry, it isn't really much diffenent than any other business....each designer puts a different price on their heads...and we all work differently - good designers hold up good business practices, and don't take on spec work or exploit themselves - which is what sitepoint is - a place to exploit designers (btw those who do use sp, just don't realize what they are doing to hurt the industry).

Anyways, I personally like to cater to my clients - each is important to me and I want them to be happy. If a potential client comes to me and likes my work, but tells me they have a tight budget, it helps to share that budget so I can decide if I'd like to work with them....

Just pls understand that YOU CAN get an affordable logo from a good designer who know their stuff w/in your budget...but you have to seek them out...and through sitepoint contests ---eraaa i mean exploitation isn't the best way to do that.


You have to realize a logo is an extension of your business, and by working closly w/ a designer (no matter how much you spend) you will get better results from a designer willing to research and learn about You and YOUR company....

If you would like to have some designers on here consider designing for you, you can post in the classified forums where many other design seeking business owners and individuals post. :) I'm sure you will find someone on here that will fit your budget and offer some wonderful high quality creative logo concepts for you. :) Good luck!


*ps yes everyone, i'm the "Arsy" one. lmao...

Hi,
You sent me a rather arsey email regarding a contest for a logo I started on Sitepoint.
I take on board your comments about cheap graphic design BUT I can't really afford $1000 for a company logo, a company which I hasten to add consists of just me and my brother who barely scrape enough work in gardening to make ends meet. To be honest any logo to us is better than no logo at all. I mean there are more expensive landscape gardeners than ourselves but we price accordingly to our clients budgets. We don't work for millionaire clients but for your average working class punter. If you pay peanuts you get get monkeys but unfortunately for us thats all we can afford. Perhaps you can design a logo for us for a reasonable amount ?
Ade

[DesignVHL]

Hi Ade,

My yard really needs some work bad. I have a bad back so I can only work part time so I don't have much money. Would you and your brother come over and fix it all up? Next week I'm going to have another landscape company come and do the same thing, and again the following week. After all of you are done I will decide which of you did the best job then I'll pay that one. Sounds like a fair deal right?

thanks kool, you always know how to put it into perspective i've learned. :)

Seriously Ade, what do you think about that? Because it really is the equivalent to what bidding sites, and contests like sitepoint are doing....it really is just so sad that we can't get the same respect as other business owners....its like who do these people think they are! Whew ok back to work on some independant work from a paying client.....that i know will pay.

[adethecat]

Hi Kool,

Of course not, but as you are well aware thats not how gardening is done. You tell me what you want done and I give you a quote, if you arn't happy with the quote then you get another. Graphic Design unfortunetly is subjective, but a garden is either tidy or not. If I do a rubbish job then i don't get paid or only get a percentage. What you surely must realise is that you need to be competatively priced, I have to be competativley priced too... there are gardeners who do cheaper work but I have to take that on the chin and do the best work I can for the budget on offer. My clients don't give two hoots if I've done 5 years at agricultural college (which I did) as long as thier garden gets done.

Ok.... so quote me for a logo and if its reasonable I'll remove my sitepoint design.

Ade

[Kool]

Hi Kool,

Of course not, but as you are well aware thats not how gardening is done. You tell me what you want done and I give you a quote, if you arn't happy with the quote then you get another.

Actually that is exactly how it is done in graphic design. Post an ad in our classified section, tell exactly what you want and be sure and include a contact email or phone number. People will contact you and give you a quote and direct you to where you can view their work. When you find one that fits your style and budget you hire them.

You couldn't afford me but there are designers who are at all levels and the chances are good that you will find one that will meet your needs.

[DesignVHL]

and for the record, why isn't gardening or landscaping subjective? The HELL IT ISN'T! Landscaping is design and art too.....there are all different types...If I were looking for a gardner or landscaper, I'd want to see photos of other yards you have done so I could decide if I like your quality of work, and how creative you are.....Looks like our businesses are closer than you might realize. :)

[Kool]

and for the record, why isn't gardening or landscaping subjective? The HELL IT ISN'T! Landscaping is design and art too.....there are all different types...If I were looking for a gardner or landscaper, I'd want to see photos of other yards you have done so I could decide if I like your quality of work, and how creative you are.....Looks like our businesses are closer than you might realize. :)

Heh heh, it always amazes me that people would never consider doing a spec work type contest for their own profession yet think it is perfectly acceptable to ask us to do it in ours. :rolleyes:

[tZ]

Its dificult to take someone's profession seriously when people are hiring highschoolers or recent highschool grads to work for them…

If people want to others to start taking this profession more seriously then it I think it needs to start by cutting of those without proper training. yeah. some of the best designers never went to school for design but, that was a long while ago- things have changed- the economy has changed. In this day and age I think people need to start placing more importance on educational standards then just a portfolio. Yes, a portfolio matters but, the general public places a degree at a higher level of value then a portfolio. Just look at all the other professions mentioned.

[D-Frag]

this thread has officially made me want to vomit. the excuses I see from not only "mom and pop" shops, to medium sized businesses that can afford a decent design, is just sickening.

Kool you hit the head of the nail on that response.

Also, im not worried one bit, through the years I have realized there are 2 kinds of people in this world:

1. People who KNOW and can trust a designer as a profession and take everything they provide with open arms, effectively communicating what they want, and in the end they get as close to that as possible and are willing to spend the money on there brand and more importantly then that appreciate the designer, there skill set and there vast knowledge in this industry.

2. The people who want "cheap," they do not value our industry anymore then there own. They will NEVER EVER get there business past the "mom and pop" mentality because there mind is stuck in the gutter. These are the same people who come to me and say "I want a design like this, or like that" well my response is "you have already failed" might as well go work at mickidees. Cheap people have the same respect for there company as they are willing to put in financially and with that mindset they will never become the next nike.

Like I said, doesn't worry me one bit. Yes, about 60-75% of the people in the world are #2's. But the few who are #1's are heads of multi-million dollar marketing campaigns and get the big bucks because they can openly communicate what they want to accomplish to a designer and in return the designer can give them that. I have finally gotten to the point in my career where there is no "value" on design, because its priceless, and until those poor #2 saps wake up and realize that we aren't just shit flinging monkeys with crayons and wax paper. That we actually research, develop and incorporate solid tride and true design elements to make there business flourish because WE KNOW WHAT WERE DOING.

I will turn away a #2 client before they even realize what they are saying, I can read them from a mile away, they don't think outside of the box, and in hindsight will never "Stand out" amongst there competition because of this.

eh, im done rambling. I hope some of the people VH emailed and linked back here will read some of the stuff Morea posted and see our responses and change there ways. In the past 8 years I have never ONCE done a contest or spec design for anyone. I hold my values right next to my heart and would never churn something out for someone in the hopes of being picked. Its tastless, insulting and just down right rude to the people who are trying to keep this industry "high end"

[ArchVis]

Ade- I assume you mean you do maintenance then? Absolutely, that's cut and dried. I'm a landscape designer and architectural illustrator, so I know our industry; I do not give free designs under any circumstances! I've had clients agonize over the same points you bring up- "I'm agreeing to pay you $X, what if I don't like the design?" Well, we've spent a while chatting about how you use the yard, your likes and dislikes, and you like my style... you're going to like the final design. Trust me. And they do! It's the same thing with a graphic designer. The designer who created my logo and identity stuff sat with me, learned about my business, my goals, my artistic taste, and based on all that she created the PERFECT logo for me. Nailed it. Did I pay a chunk of change for it? Yeah, but it's what represents me to the world, so it was worth it. Besides, not sure how it works for you, but I was able to deduct it from my taxes.

The best way to find any designer (be it our industry or GD) is to scrutinize their portfolio to see if their style meshes with yours, and talk to them to see if they get you. It's that simple, and then you have to trust them. I'm sure you get new clients on referral; do they follow you around and micromanage you, or do they say "Bonnie said you were great, make it look good and give me the bill"?

Dave

[adethecat]

Hi Kool and DesignVHL,

Thanks for your advice.... but let me try and explain it from where I am .... I wanted a logo, someone who I know is a bit net savvy and suggested I try Sitepoint where I can post a competition for a logo and choose the one I like the best for a $100. Now this sounds great to me. Its cheap and I will hopefully get a logo I like... if theres none I like then I don't pay... I can't really lose. Now the people here on this forum seem to have got the hump with this, I can sort of see why but from a buying punters point of view its perfect. You guys need to get your head out of your backsides and take a long look at the real world.

Kool, I have to admit your comment on me not being able to afford you is pure arrogence! I have just taken a quick look at some samples of your work and was not overly impressed so perhaps its a good job your are out of my budget.

I'll also point out that I didn't start this topic... i was privately messaged by DesignVHL so please excuse my rather bewildered response to all this, its just my ignorence.

Ade

[Kool]

One more thing, graphic design isn't as subjective as you think. Say you decide I'm full of crap and continue with your contest and some guy with a pirated copy of photoshop designs you an awesome looking logo. Looks great on the computer screen and works great on your website. Then you go to get it printed or to get a sign made for your shop and you find out that it is unprintable because it was designed at 72 dpi in a raster format. Then you will have to pay a bundle for a real designer to recreate it (If it's even possible) in the correct way so that it can be printed, if it's not possible then you will have to start again from scratch.

[DesignVHL]

D - I seriously don't think anyone could have put that any better...a lot of great points about this are being made, and I too hope that some people are seeing this from our angle...AND IF YOUR OUT THERE, we'd LOVE to hear from you...

This whole concept makes me want to vomit...its totally sickening and maybe thats why i'm so pissed here - IT IS SO INSULTING!

I know I SHOULDN'T LET it bother me, but it does...not in respect to my losing sleep over it, and not because i'm losing business, biz is good, but it cheapens our industry..and well I think we all get the picture here, lol.

[tZ]

I posted nospec on sitepoint and they told me I was crazy,lol

This was coming from "actual" designers. Then I went to go view some their work and it all made sense.

[D-Frag]

:d

[tZ]

However, there is worst then sitepoint out there.

I'm not going to share the link but, there is worst…

Think $100 is bad how about $30…

I agree wuth d-frag and believe in a lot of things he stated but, at same time I do think that eventually this whole thing might become a large threat to the professional industry. Maybe not now but, some day in the near future I do see this becoming a problem with the way the economy is.

[DesignVHL]

um, i never pmed you....i tried to but could not...just want to make that clear...all I did was post on each contest post...if it was a pm it was a mistake....

apparently you want a cheap design over quality....

as for kool - his clients are happy with his work, they hired him for a reason and he fits their niche....he's been around a while, knows the industry damn well...I never found him to come off as arrogant..maybe I'd rather spend a bit more for Dave's company than have a cheap maintenence man come out....he probably will have a better logo, therefore be positioned higher up in the industry. Um do you even HAVE a marketing plan? Bet not. I bet dave does, and a biz plan too....

Hi Kool and DesignVHL,

Thanks for your advice.... but let me try and explain it from where I am .... I wanted a logo, someone who I know is a bit net savvy and suggested I try Sitepoint where I can post a competition for a logo and choose the one I like the best for a $100. Now this sounds great to me. Its cheap and I will hopefully get a logo I like... if theres none I like then I don't pay... I can't really lose. Now the people here on this forum seem to have got the hump with this, I can sort of see why but from a buying punters point of view its perfect. You guys need to get your head out of your backsides and take a long look at the real world.

Kool, I have to admit your comment on me not being able to afford you is pure arrogence! I have just taken a quick look at some samples of your work and was not overly impressed so perhaps its a good job your are out of my budget.

I'll also point out that I didn't start this topic... i was privately messaged by DesignVHL so please excuse my rather bewildered response to all this, its just my ignorence.

Ade

[adethecat]

DesignVHL - you say you are pissed... well so am I !

All I wanted was a nice logo to put on an invoice and business card and I've spent an hour typing and being made to feel as if I'm some sort of lowlife scum for not going through the correct designers. You have certainly not made a good impression on me and I think I'll stick with the sitepoint kids... at least you don't get stick from them! You've done your cause no favours at all from my point of view.

Ade

[Kool]

Hi Kool and DesignVHL,

Kool, I have to admit your comment on me not being able to afford you is pure arrogence! I have just taken a quick look at some samples of your work and was not overly impressed so perhaps its a good job your are out of my budget.

Ade

I'm sorry you took it that way but it wasn't arrogance. You stated flat out that you couldn't afford a $1,000 for a logo. While my pricing isn't quite that high it's close enough for me to know you can't afford it. I didn't mean it to be insulting but your the one who said your budget is small. I didn't start out charging that much but with me your paying for over sixteen years of experience and many other benefits that I won't bother going into here. It's clear you are not wanting to hear what we are saying and can not see the hypocrisy in expecting us to do something you yourself wouldn't consider doing.

[DesignVHL]

Well hey thats your ignorance then I guess....

....if you want your logo done by a teenager, novice designer, who doesn't understand the nature of your biz or care to learn it thats your biz...you get what you pay for. Your logo is going to suck ass. But hey at least you saved $200 bux! I think it is sad that you couldn't shell out $250-$300 bux for a decent logo to represent a company you've most likely poured your heart and soul into.... Not sure what your bid offer was, but I am sure I wouldn't want to take it.

[frankster]

"The site point kids" can only afford to be doing logos this cheap because they are probably working out of dorm rooms on a laptop paid for by mummy and daddy, with pirated software and not paying taxes on earnings. It is not possible to do a good job and make ends meet on those pay scales when running a business. Either that or they live in a country with a lower cost of living. This is what you are supporting and this is what gives most designers the hump.

You will have to go through trademarking and copyrighting proceedures on your own with the sitepoint set up too, where as many pro designers will hand hold you through what needs to be done with that.

[tZ]

Everyone has a different budget. If your looking for relatively "cheap" design then it might be best to hand the project off to a student and pay them. I consider myself relatively "cheap" because I'm only a student but, I'm not going to spend 10+ hrs on something when I'm not even assured payment. Thats just not how I roll,lol. I'll maybe spend about an hr but, I'll tell you right now… I'll be top or mind garbage. The first idea always is. You pay for options and exploration not one logo.

[adethecat]

Hi,

You still don't seem to get it.
To most people, me included I can't tell the difference between a $100 logo and a $300 logo. I'm assuming there are differences but not that I can notice.
Why spend an extra $200? You say I'll get a better design ? But will me or my clients notice ? I seriously doubt it, they are not designers. If i'm Pepsi or MTV then i'll pay for the best I can get... i'm not.
I realise that this must be galling to a designer who has spent time at college and worked hard, but its just the way it is. I'm trying to explain this from a non-designers point of view. Please don't all have a go at me. I wouldn't be nasty to you for not knowing the difference between hardy perennials and herbaceous perennials.

Ade

[JamesW]

"The site point kids" can only afford to be doing logos this cheap because they are probably working out of dorm rooms on a laptop paid for by mummy and daddy.

The site point kids can't afford to live... Really good graphic desingers are hard to come by... but everybody deserves to get paid for the time spent working on a project whether they made the mona lisa or not...

Young professionals are being trained from the start that working for free is the norm...

The last thing that should be happening is site point programmers building an empire off free labour...

One million monkeys at one million type writers spitting out a logo for $100.00 so sitepoint can profiteer... under the guise of a contest...



[edit] --- comment removed... too depressing...

[Kool]

Hi,

You still don't seem to get it.
To most people, me included I can't tell the difference between a $100 logo and a $300 logo. I'm assuming there are differences but not that I can notice.
Why spend an extra $200? You say I'll get a better design ? But will me or my clients notice ? I seriously doubt it, they are not designers. If i'm Pepsi or MTV then i'll pay for the best I can get... i'm not.
I realise that this must be galling to a designer who has spent time at college and worked hard, but its just the way it is. I'm trying to explain this from a non-designers point of view. Please don't all have a go at me. I wouldn't be nasty to you for not knowing the difference between hardy perennials and herbaceous perennials.

Ade

One more thing, graphic design isn't as subjective as you think. Say you decide I'm full of crap and continue with your contest and some guy with a pirated copy of photoshop designs you an awesome looking logo. Looks great on the computer screen and works great on your website. Then you go to get it printed or to get a sign made for your shop and you find out that it is unprintable because it was designed at 72 dpi in a raster format. Then you will have to pay a bundle for a real designer to recreate it (If it's even possible) in the correct way so that it can be printed, if it's not possible then you will have to start again from scratch.

As we wouldn't expect you to know the difference between raster and vector. Who's being nasty too you. We have tried or at least I have to patiently explain to you why spec work is not as valuable as you think. You were the one who insulted my work.

[adethecat]

Kool,
I apologise, It was a knee-jerk reaction.... your snotty attitude pissed me off.

Your work is lovely... just not my cup of tea.

Ade

[SurfPark]

I agree frankster. You won't find real designers on site point because there is no design process going on at that site. People who do work there don't have a business model, freelance or otherwise. They're people that like to fiddle. There is a demmand for this super low cost, low quality design. Its why we have Walmart and Gucci both selling handbags. Different customers, different clients.

I yawned all the way through this thread. What's the news? What's the big scurry about? Sitepoint has been producing this work for a while.

The best thing about the site is that the legal loop holes are endless. Imagine I post a request for a logo and offer a few hundred bucks for it. No where on the site is there a way to vouche for originality. I could "win" these contests and be given a copyrighted work and sued for its use. I love that!

[ArchVis]

Ade- 90% of people aren't going to look at a logo and say "wow, that's a great design." But a sizable portion of that group will see a logo and on some level will think "there's something different about that company, I should give them a call." It's basic business- I have a very graphic and architectural logo, quite different than my name and a silhouette of a tree or a leaf, like every other landscape designer. A client will be more willing to pay more for what they perceive as a better product.

Dave

[frankster]

Ade- 90% of people aren't going to look at a logo and say "wow, that's a great design."

Don't bank on it. Sometimes people do notice. I was elated to hear back from a company that I designed a logo for that said four out of the five meetings they had been to with various venture capitalists the week before had commented on how nice thier logo was when the business cards were handed over. Makes me a happy girl! :D

[tZ]

The problem is that your looking at the product only from your view point. You say you don't see the difference- you probably won't. Thats not what a logo is for. A logo is not for you its for your identity Your not paying for something you like your paying for something that will make your product more widely known or recognized. That is what our job is our job isn't to make you something you like if anything it should be the exact opposite. Our job is to increase your brand recognition and give you a unique image. Something that stands out from all other like competitors. Something makes people want your product more even though it is the exact same thing as the company across the street. Creating a logo is about giving your company a face or unique identity that stands out in the market. No, its not going to assure your business product/ business success, but, combined with proper sales knowledge and business practice it make your product or business flourish over everyone else that are selling/doing the same thing. In the end, its not about what you like or I like its about whats going to make you more money. That may be a bit difficult of a concept to grasp but, that is the true purpose of an identity not something the business owners like. The business owner isn't going to make money themselves they need customers. As designers we specialize on a global scale in what makes things memorable, stand out and look good- not just one person(you) but, everyone in general. With that comes understanding and research of your business and competitors. This something that is highly lacking in contest. No one researches your business needs they just pretty much come up with something aesthetically appealing. It might look good but, will it attract and be memorable to the target audience- will it plant that seed- just do it- cola- you get the picture. So were not just here to create pretty looking graphics if anything the people who truly understand what design is do just the opposite.

[Kool]

Kool,
I apologise, It was a knee-jerk reaction.... your snotty attitude pissed me off.

Your work is lovely... just not my cup of tea.

Ade

Apology accepted.. I guess LOL.

I'll try this one more time. I have an artistic eye. I could go down to the local garden center and select a bunch of pretty red flowers and a bunch of blue ones and a bunch of nice yellow ones. I could take em home and plant them in an eye pleasing manner and someone driving by would say thats a nice looking flower bed. Except the blue ones I planted in front will grow twice as fast and twice as tall as the ones in the back. And the pretty red ones require lots of direct sun but the blue ones grow best in the shade. And the yellow one do great with just a bit of water while the red ones require daily watering. So at first glance I have created a beautiful flower bed but in reality it is a total mess. That's where your expertise comes in knowing what to put where and how close together to plant them and how to care for them. It's the same way with graphic design. It's much more than just creating a pretty image.

[Exodus]

I'm glad that I have successfully stayed out of this thread...



d'oh!

[adethecat]

Ok, I'm going to cancel the sitepoint comp and put a post here asking for a designer to quote me a price for a new logo. It better be good or I'm gonna moan like f**k! ;)
Ade

[Exodus]

People generally do moan when they fk.


Just sayin'

[ArchVis]

frankster- you made me realize I was trying to say two things in one sentence. Sorry. What I was trying to say was that accolades for a great logo aren't the goal (thought they sure are nice), but the right logo (and other identity products) changes the way your business is perceived by potential clients. Did I make sense that time? I think my brain's at its limit...

Ade, that's why a kickass identity is more important for us than the big boys- we have way more competitors on our level than they do.

[frankster]

Ok, I'm going to cancel the sitepoint comp and put a post here asking for a designer to quote me a price for a new logo. It better be good or I'm gonna moan like f**k! ;)
Ade

Please remember when you do this that it will be illegal to request that a designer use or develop any of the concepts provided by the "Sitepoint kids" without compensating them.

[Kool]

You've made a wise choice. :)

Now here's a few things to make sure of when you choose a designer:

Make sure they use a contract that spells out exactly what they and you will be providing. The contract protects you and them.

Make sure your final logo doesn't contain any gradients, drop shadows or 3D effects. (you can add these things later but the basic logo needs to work without them)

Make sure it looks good in basic black and white. (same as above you can add color later)

Make sure it is in a Vector format so you can use it on anything from a business card to a billboard.

If the designer tries to talk you out of any of these basic requirements find another designer.

[frankster]

You reminded me of a post we had in the showcase (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29122&highlight=trees) a while back. I loved the trees used in the stationary.

[giddyup]

Thanks for the smarmy unsolicited email (via sitepoint forum) DesignVHL.

With all due respect ... and I say this with love, if you want to be treated like every other profession, then accept that the marketplace is the defacto pricing mechanism. You need to focus not on your victimhood, but rather on raising your game. The designers I use on budgeted projects are at the top of their game and would never feel threatened by sitepoint's contests.

You will remain bitter until you understand that you can't change the world, but you can change yourself.

my 2¢
giddyup

[frankster]

With all due respect ... and I say this with love, if you want to be treated like every other profession, then accept that the marketplace is the defacto pricing mechanism.

If all members of Sitepoint have legal licenses for thier software and pay income tax then I have no problem whatsoever with it. If they can work legally for these prices then good for them!

[Alan G]

Ade, the point here is NOT that you were being cheap, but that a logo has to last a very long time. It's not something you can change every year or so, and the bigger you grow your business, the harder it gets to change. It has to look good in many different contexts on many types of media. That it looks cool standing all by itself means very little.

In the landscape industry, it's not just a matter of sticking some nice looking plants in the ground: they have to work in the local climate, with the local soil, and with the right amount of shade and sunlight. As a pro, you know that good quality tools are important, and expensive. And you probably get a bit miffed when some cowboy outfit comes along and flagrantly underbids you, doing what you know is inferior work (even though the customer doesn't).

It's the same way with designers and logos. Just as you had to make a significant investment in training and tools to be able to produce professional work, the folks who frequent this forum have put a great deal of time, sweat and money into learning and being able to create work that has longevity and that works in ways an untrained person won't know to plan for. And yes, they do get a bit miffed when some cowboy... You get the point.

If you buy cheap, in any field, you generally get exactly what you pay for. There will always be lowball vendors. They don't produce viable products. The ultimate loser is the customer who is conned into paying for something that won't last, won't really do the job, and ends up being way more expensive in the long run.

[D-Frag]

Thanks for the smarmy unsolicited email (via sitepoint forum) DesignVHL.

With all due respect ... and I say this with love, if you want to be treated like every other profession, then accept that the marketplace is the defacto pricing mechanism. You need to focus not on your victimhood, but rather on raising your game. The designers I use on budgeted projects are at the top of their game and would never feel threatened by sitepoint's contests.

You will remain bitter until you understand that you can't change the world, but you can change yourself.

my 2¢
giddyup

Riiiight, uh huh, and monkeys fly out of my butt on a daily basis. Listen, so what you are attempting to say hereif you want to be treated like every other profession, then accept that the marketplace is the defacto pricing mechanism. is people don't pay for brands or named products? So by all means, if I wanted shoes in the 90's I could buy the cheap kmart blue light special and feel like i saved a buck, or I could of bought the $190 New Nike Air Jordan's and be the most popular kid on my street (which would have been target market, see what im getting at?) see images, brands and identities are what fuels the market place, in fact what you are doing is dulling the marketplace in general by holding competitions and cheapening your products. See my post on the last page please, and sloooowly read my description about "#2 type people" who run businesses.

And im sorry but this remark: The designers I use on budgeted projects are at the top of their game and would never feel threatened by sitepoint's contests. is just downright dumb. If you are working with any half intelligent human being, they would see the value in what paying for a good product is, in both design, and in your own product and would quickly realize that what they are doing is bad. I have never in all my time (and ive worked at some pretty exclusive places, not going to name drop though) ran into a designer who knew his shit and didn't charge for it. Maybe, just maybe in desperate times stoop to a lower payment to make rent, but never on a regular basis with a client.

Point is, im not worried about sitepoint, I am however worried that this will become the "norm" for how people view the creative industry, its bad enough we already get walked on by ignorant people who think our industry is "cheap." I feel awful for the students who can't find work and think this is the norm, because it really isn't, they are doing nothing but exhausting themselves for the "chance" at a 1/4 of the price someone would normally charge. Its sad that people cannot see this. We can do the simplest analogies all day long but it will make no difference. I will leave you with this though.

A person who puts no value on the way their business is portrayed will only draw that same potential client, someone who does not value their business or trade. Type #2 people will never get there head out of the gutter long enough to see the light because they have there head stuffed into there bank book looking how they can save another dollar, its all about saving money and making that extra buck. Financially, that is great, but its bad for business. You will find the big dogs in this world only use the finest, they surround themselves with the best of the best on every imaginable level, there is a reason why there are huge ad agencies in NY and LA that charge millions of dollars for ad campaigns, and until you can see why that is valuable, you will remain a small company and never draw those same high dollar clientes into working with you.

Good luck on your budgeted designers, we have an old saying in this industry, "Crap in, Crap out"

[Kool]

Thanks for the smarmy unsolicited email (via sitepoint forum) DesignVHL.

Apparently sitepoint send emails when threads are replyed to. DesignVHL simply posted to the various contest threads, if that resulted in you getting an unsolicited email then you should take that up with them.

[tZ]

Make sure your final logo doesn't contain any gradients, drop shadows or 3D effects. (you can add these things later but the basic logo needs to work without them)


As a matter of fact if you view their other work and it uses these things- move on.

[tZ]

Kool they are pretty strict when it comes to soliciting on contests by telling the holder or designers they shouldn't be participating in contests.

[Kool]

Kool they are pretty strict when it comes to soliciting on contests by telling the holder or designers they shouldn't be participating in contests.

Huh? LOL :confused:

[Rizz]

Heh. I've timed out three times reading this thread.

I wanted to post something heartfelt and honest. Something that would help people understand that good design work is worth paying for. Something that illustrates how 'contests' hurt the participants more than anyone else.

But I just can't seem to get it quite right...

-Rizz

[tZ]

You can post comments in each individual contest and if you "disrupt" the contests by commenting negatively against holding one the sitepoint gods get angry.

[Kool]

Oh I know, they booted DesignVHL for it. So do they then send the offending post via email to all their members LOL. ;)

[tZ]

Nope, you get this friendly Pm:


Hello,

I have removed your comments from a contest. It isn't your position, or anyone's for that matter, to try and talk the CH out of holding a contest. Please do not do this again.

Thank you,

[Seapony]

You can post comments in each individual contest and if you "disrupt" the contests by commenting negatively against holding one the sitepoint gods get angry.
That's because they're sick of us denouncing their practices. ;)

I didn't want to get involved but I've been quietly following along. Heaven help me I'll try to be as brief as I can—I'm still recovering from my last epic "spec" discussion here. :D

Fact is that sitepoint CAN hold ethical contests, but don't, simply because the system they already have in place is a cash cow. Why ruin a good thing when there are so many impressionable folks out there that can be seduced?

Basically they could hold a portfolio competition for the client. The client can choose from non-active work and choose the designer they feel will be a good fit. The winning designer and client will then exchange contracts, reasonable estimates and work together to develop an effective mark.

In this scenario everyone wins; the designer gains realistic practical experience in identity development. Their intangible conceptual development is also compensated as well as honed. I always say that design is one-third execution and two-thirds creative development, because it's the creative solutions that make the mark (and yes, laymen can tell the difference between simple "pretty" logo and a brand they might want to invest their money in—"helping" them make that decision is part of what makes a good mark)...as you can see, anyone with a computer, a manual and some aquired software can call themselves a designer. As a result the client wins because they will end up with a functional, effective mark that will be not only attractive to them, but to the type of client they want to attract.

In SP's current model, designers, burned out or pressured with an unrealistic deadline, have been known to plaguerize exisiting logos from other sources (even their own) to meet the demand, which is also bad for the client, particularly when legal reprocussions catch up with them. Another result is that a client ends up with a sub-standard design, which when you think about it isn't even worth the ridiculously low fee they paid for because although pretty, it may not strike that all important chord that will motivate folks to try your services. The only one who really wins is the contest mill itself, as they've already not only collected their cut, but normally end up owning all the rights to submissions as well. Like I said, "cash cow."

To Abe: Good for you for at least trying to contract a professional rather than participate in a contest where the caliber of experience is a crap shoot. It will cost much more, but like anything of value, it should be worth the investment.

I'm not going so far to say that anyone who is in SP are hacks—frankly that's not quite right. I have seen a minority who have found their niche there and are good designers. However the majority are not. Because contest mills practically have an established sweatshop mentality, churning out concept after concept without researching their client's promotional needs, target demographic, region and other important factors that make up a successful, effective logo that will help generate a healthy amount of interest and traffic, you can't...won't...be guaranteed that your "pretty" logo will generate the interest that is vital for a modest business as yours.

You may not be a Fortune 500, but frankly, if anyone should invest more in an identity that functions beyond "eye candy" is the small business owner—they have more to lose by not working hard to establish a strong presence that will represent them to potential clients who quite frankly are investing in outside services because they desire a certain level of quality...emphasis on "quality."

Take your business as an example. Think about what motivates a person to forego tending their lawns themselves for that of a professional—it's not simply because of time constraints or laziness, otherwise they could've plunked a few bucks and hired the neighborhood kid to keep things "pretty" or "decent," do you see where I'm coming from? Money does move the world, but it's the desire for quality that really makes the economic world go 'round. It would seem that you have made the wise choice of investing in quality for your business.

Regarding price range. There are reasons why identity design garners such a high price, over say...a full page ad in the local newspaper (which mind you is quite expensive).

For one thing, there's the matter of rights. By law, when anyone creates a design it automatically is the property of the author. Because it's not feasible for a Creative to retain ownership of a logo once the project is put to bed, the usage rights are usually negotiated into the estimate. Unlike other designs, a logo will be applied to all manner of promotional collateral and will be used time and time again, for the life of the company, or until it out lasts it's effectiveness. Business cards, signage, car wraps, stationery, invoices, advertising, promotional items...as you can see, it's not a tidy "one shot" design. Think of it as getting many design uses for the price of one. That's why it's both the most lucrative niche and in many ways the most important for the client. And that is why an estimate can often range in the thousands (particularly for the cream of the crop, who have an understanding of the impact of their expertise and skill).

A logo is your representative in your physical absence. It reflects the image you want to convey to prospective buyers. It will often constitute your "first" and "lasting" impression, when it's not a word of mouth referral. It is, in every sense of the word, your Identity.

So...do you think your identity is worth $100.USD...$25.USD? Is it worth allocating a substantial part of your budget, or is it worth filing it as an opportunity to "cut corners" to assuage the overhead? As much as a designer would like to persuade otherwise, only the client can decide what the face of their business is truly worth.

:)

[michgla]

Hey all I'm a "sitepoint kid" I've entered plenty of contests over there and don't particularly like spec but for my current situation it works better than nothing. I'm not going into detail, about my situation just let it be known that there are people out there that do have skill and it is worth it to them to spend 30 min on a $200 logo competition. I have been able to get 3 solid clients with ongoing work, and subclients from them that I am able to charge hourly or set project prices that are more online with industry standards from sp. I'm big enough to put up my portfolio for scrutiny it doesn't show all my work but you can see some of it http://www.magikgraphics.com/flashgallery/ you can bash me as a hack if you want as some of you surely will (seems like there are a lot of mightier than thou designers here)

I think this thread is a perfect example of why clients are leary of the so called professional designers. You were able to get a potential client to post here and quickly made him feel stupid and attacked him openly.

I feel that the "professional designers" are to blame for spec work. Large design firms are fat with executives and their salaries so they have to overcharge for their services this trickles down to the rest of the industry. You set the price, and if the price is too high for people to pay what are they to do? If someone wants a logo and they can't afford your prices what should they do go from one designer to the next being belittled because they can't afford them as Kool so nicely put? I even saw one post to "cut off" the non-degree'd professionals. Filling all positions with degreed personel is the current trend in US business in general not just design. I can only assume the poster works in a very corporate design firm. This looking down the nose attitude in the art field sickens me. The masters didn't get degrees does this mean they didn't know what they were doing?

I've seen some very level headed designers post here as well. I applaud you for your knowledge of the industry as well as sense of the business world as a whole.

In closing I'm not championing spec work, I'm simply trying to open the eyes of some of the designers who posted here. Not everyone's situation in life is like your own. In order to get rid of spec work, the industy as a whole needs to be more flexible as the business landscape changes. I can offer one suggestion; studios/designers should have partner firms which offer lower prices then theirs. This way clients can trickle down through designers and not get frustrated and turn to spec work.

[morea]

I'm not even going to waste my breath with this thread, since nobody is going to change their minds. I just wanted to point out that AIGA takes the following stand on spec work:

AIGA believes that doing speculative work seriously compromises the quality of work that clients are entitled to and also violates a tacit, long-standing ethical standard in the communication design profession worldwide. AIGA strongly discourages the practice of requesting that design work be produced and submitted on a speculative basis in order to be considered for acceptance on a project.

[Kool]

If someone wants a logo and they can't afford your prices what should they do go from one designer to the next being belittled because they can't afford them as Kool so nicely put?

Yes. I don't know how everybody else shops but when I need to buy a product I look around until I find one in my price range. This really bothers me, I posted several thousand words in this thread trying to politely educate. Yet that one small sentence is the only thing people see. I have worked very hard to get where I am as a mid grade logo designer. I offer services way beyond what many designers offer and enough people value these services that I am able to make a decent living at it. Not everyone can afford these services which doesn't make them bad. Abe stated right out that he had a small budget so HE COULDN'T AFFORD ME. This doesn't make him a bad person and I in no way implied that he was. Yet because of that one small comment I was accused of being arrogant, told my work sucks and said I had a snotty attitude. I agree completely that attacking and belittling people is not the way to get them to change their minds. That educating people in the downside of doing spec work is the way to go and I tried very hard to do that in here. Well you can see how far that got me since I'm now in several of your minds that arrogant, snotty designer who's work sucks.

[DesignVHL]

maybe SPEC needs to be more defined, lol....perhaps these people doing the spec work, don't realize what it is or what they are doing....maybe they don't know how to read?

But your right, I doubt any minds will get changed....apparently these spec designers see us as design snobs, instead of working professionals with good best business practices, and a need to work in a professional manner set by our industry - industry standards do exist for a reason! I DID learn a lot in college that I NEVER would have picked up if I had not....so maybe that is why companies are hiring people with degrees....that isn't to say that there are no good designers w/out a degree, I know a few great ones - but they took the time to learn about best biz practices, took classes on composition, and proper design techniques, really dove in to learn all they could...no degree but did educate themselves...I think proper knowledge and understanding of this industry and working the right way through AIGA and industry standards WILL get you much further in your career than if you start off doing spec work and think "this is just to get me started and "in" the industry.....its just the wrong path completely...but I don't think some of these designers will grasp that. I really just don't....they are they and we are we and maybe D-FRAG had it right.....we are the #1's and work with #1's (or maybe #2's too lol) and they are the #2's- or perhaps the #3-5's that we wouldn't want to work with....i don't even know if i'm making any sense anymore this tread is driving me bonkers, lol.

[DesignVHL]

KOOL - i think it comes down to the fact that they are probably the arrogant insecure ones....these people's minds can't be changed because it is in their small minded personalities and they don't care to grasp the concept that our industry is really no different than any other...goes back to the crayons and paper analogy almost...

[Kool]

I just wish the designers who do spec work could grasp the concept that they are in fact eating the seed corn and that every time they do a spec job it makes it just that much harder for them to ever reach the point where they can earn a decent living in the career they have chosen.

It's such a basic fundamental business practice, don't give your product away for free. Why is that so hard to grasp. :confused:

[DesignVHL]

totally they don't realize it, but they are doing it the hard way for sure! They are degrading themselves without really realizing it....A nice website, some good smart marketing, and proper identity would get them so much farther ahead than whoring themselves...then again I viewed about 10 portfolios from the sitepoint design contests, and out of that, I liked maybe 2 of them...most are amature looking....and the design isn't that great, which is why they may need to stoop down to that level of a sweatshop worker. I wonder if it is almost as bad as supporting terrorism, lol.

Design schools really need to change their curriculums a bit to teach the business side of things and start pushing NO SPEC....hmmm wheels are turning.

[DesignVHL]

nice new sig kool but you forgot belittler too. :P

[tZ]

Like I said before everyone has the impression that in this day and age you can just buy some software and be a designer. They don't understand the benefit of spending $1000 over $100. In many people's eyes a logo is nothing more then a graphic. It really is sad…

However, like D-Frag stated there are people out there that understand the importance of a well thought out image and its everlasting impact on their business.

I don't think peoples minds are going to change. The fact of the matter is that a logo is just not that important in many peoples eyes. Seapony did a great job explaining the importance of one but, unless you can find a way to really hit them in the pocket provide examples I don't think anyone is going to care.

[Ovaltine]

As to the excuse some have used that they're strapped for cash. I say "Bull....".

When I was in Savannah, had just finished college, was living in Drayton Towers, with a 6 month old and a husband still in school I did loads of freelance work. I'll grant that I had no clue what my work was worth, and am certain I under-sold myself, but... there was a law firm which posted an ad in the college's freelance book for a logo. I went to their office to show them my portfolio and talk with them about what they wanted.

When we got down to the details the truth came out... they wanted a bunch of college kids to design some logos for them, and then their committee would choose which design they liked. The designer would get $500. I told him that wasn't the way graphic designers were supposed to work, he said that was the way they'd decided to do it and he couldn't change that, I stood my ground and left the building.

Now, I really could have used the cash, but there was no guarentee I was going to get it in the end, and my TIME was far more valuable. I spent the time I would have wasted on them finding paying jobs (jobs I'm sure, now, I should have charged more for, but hey, you live and learn).

I wish to thank the Savannah College of Art and Design for offering a "Business of Graphic Design" class, which taught me not to do spec work, and how to write contracts, invoices, etc. I wish it had gone into more detail on how to price my work.

[DesignVHL]

nice post ovaltine....thanks for sharing that experience...most schools totally need a class on the business of design and it should be a REQUIREMENT! Topics should include Pricing, ethics, invoicing, contracts, working with clients (and no spec-work!)...i'm kind of surprised that this hasn't even been considered more widely through higher end design schools even! IT needs to be part of the degree requirements....i wish I had a class that taught me all this....

The Pricing and Ethical guidelines book should be the text book for this class too!

[Ovaltine]

^ yes that would be helpful. I'm thinking of e-mailing SCAD (Savannah College of Art and Design) and recommending that the class be a requirement. Maybe I'll link to this thread as proof. And reccommend that the profs tell the students about this forum, then we could educate them as well. :)

[DesignVHL]

great idea....everyone else should do the samething with their respective schools....actually the AIGA and no-spec.com should be doing this, as they have more pull than us! :)

[Kool]

I'm going to close this thread now. Everything from our end has been said many many times. If someone wants to read them with an open mind all the info they could wish for is already here. And I don't wish to provide an endless forum for sitepoint fans to wander in here and insult us for placing a value on our work and then spend endless words trying to convince us that giving away our work for free is a good thing.