low-balling and spec article

[tZ]

I'm not sure if this has been posted already but, I thought this was a great article explaining the cons of low-balling and working on spec. I think everyone especially new-comers to the industry should take time to read this enlightening article. Its a little old but, the principles and practices addressed are constant.

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/new-challenges-from-the-lowballersand-what-to-do

[morea]

Good article, tZ, I'll add it to my collection. Here are a few more recommended reads:

Educate Lowballers and Stop Lowballing (http://thecreativeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155)
(from our sister site, The Creative Forum (www.thecreativeforum.com))


Why Designers Shouldn't Fear the 'Design it Yourself' Mentality (http://www.beadesigngroup.com/blog/archives/2006/06/why_designers_shouldnt_fear_th.php)
(from Be a Design Group (http://www.beadesigngroup.com))



I love this analogy from www.no-spec.com:
A Design Analogy, By Tom Stephan

I really wanted a tattoo, but I had no idea what I wanted — I just wanted a tattoo. So went to four or five different tattoo studios and said “hi guys, I want a tattoo, and it has to be cool and it has to be something that says “this is me, this is who i am, and after you decide who I am and what I want to tell the world, I will pay you for it and you can tattoo it on my arm. If I don’t like it, I can always have it removed later.”

Oddly enough, the tattooists all asked me, “well, how will I know what kind of person you are?” and I said “I dunno … just give me some designs and I’ll see what I like.”

The reputable tattoo studios refused to take me up on this, and I was astonished — here I was, offering them a chance to go wild and let their imaginations take flight, and they weren’t interested. It was the less-than-great tattooists who took me up on the offer, and when the designs came in, none of them were like me. None of them said anything about me…as a matter of fact they looked more like what the tattooist might like on themselves.

I was pretty disappointed. Next time, I’ll have to rethink whether I want to put my identity in the hands of strangers.

Moral of the story? If you’re willing to commit someone else’s ideas to your business, without a clear concept of what you yourself want or desire, you leave yourself open to the mercy of other people’s caprice and fancy. If you’re running your business, don’t you want the right to get it the way you want it without gambling on something that may cost more to fix than to get right in the first place?


and finally, AIGA takes the following stand on spec work:
AIGA believes that doing speculative work seriously compromises the quality of work that clients are entitled to and also violates a tacit, long-standing ethical standard in the communication design profession worldwide. AIGA strongly discourages the practice of requesting that design work be produced and submitted on a speculative basis in order to be considered for acceptance on a project.


for more information on spec work, please check THIS (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188523&postcount=7) link.

[PrintDriver]

Ok, based on the example given in the AIGA article, not to start this all up again (but I can't resist), when you guys do a project do you go to a photographer and pay his rates?
NO.
You go to the penny stock photo sites where the photos are what, 3 to 4 credits a piece for a decent sized 5x7? At a dollar a credit, one of which goes to the photog for each sale, these companies are making a killing. So you are in effect using the lowballers of the photography industry to raise YOUR bottom line. People are constantly trying to use that gak for large format instead of paying a real pro who shoots to film.

When you can say you don't support other forms of lowballing that you as designers use on a daily basis, from paper companies to print companies to photo companies, then come back and tell me you care.

[Kool]

^^^ Heh heh, I always thought the same thing regarding the use of online BC printers which are rapidly driving the mom & pop local printers out of business. :)

[frankster]

That's the client's budget though that controls that stuff, so technically it's the clients low balling again. ;)

P.S. Kool, I have a local printer who does fantastic work but I still get clients demanding online printing through places like overnightprints for BC and letter head. It makes me cry a little inside, but I can't persuade them otherwise, not even when I show them the difference in end product quality.

[Logo-Mechanix]

I was thinking that as well Frankster.

[Kool]

Of course lowballing and spec work are completely different subjects even though they often get lumped together. Lowballing is just the capitalist process in action. Logo mills have their niche as do high end designers but at least neither of them expect to work for nothing.

[morea]

I take the pictures myself.

[Logo-Mechanix]

^Exactly.

[PrintDriver]

Ah, but if I wanted you to shoot fully lighted architectural interiors, or shoot proprietary works that you have no business owning the rights to let alone redistributing, or shoot some very fragile original artifacts, could you or would you or should you even do it?

Everyone always plays on the assumption that lowballing will 'kill your industry'. Trust me it won't.

I'm staying away from the spec aspect as that was not really mentioned in the article. Anyway, my views on that differ from even the top bloggers out there. Mostly because all they think about is 4-color print at sizes less than newspaper spread and usually as a marketing campaign that has to sell something.

There is far more to the graphic, photo, exhibit industry than some of the people from the print-only world can see, and many of them do not understand the nuances of photo rights, ownership, and usage. And they do not understand the nuances of high end exhibit quality graphic work. Having done a billboard or pop-up booth does not make you a large format graphic designer in all that the field encompasses and until someone actually can write an article that shows me they understand the entire scope of the field of design and photography as it relates to spec work then blogs are still only one person's opinion on what they think the world should be like.

[morea]

We can stop this from happening. We need to contact these “creative service providers” and educate them (forget about the “services” themselves as all they care about is the bottom line). Explain to these creatives how they are hurting the industry and, more importantly, how they can make more money and work less by running their businesses in an ethical manner.

This is an interesting proposition, but I don't know if it's a practical one. Look at any of the countless "spec work" and "lowballing" threads on this forum alone; if this is going to be done, it needs to be done with a LOT of tact.

Unfortunately, it usually isn't, and it almost always ends up offending the designers who are doing the lowballing. That seldom results in anything more than petty bickering and doesn't help anyone at all.

I have my own theories that many of the people who can afford to offer their services for so little aren't overly concerned with little things like "business ethics," including paying for their own software, fonts, etc. To many of these people, GD isn't something that they care to 'learn' to do properly - most don't even consider the fact that it is a trained profession - it's just a little bit of extra money in their pocket now and then. Why should they CARE what this sort of behavior is doing "to the industry"? They normally have regular day jobs and get into GD as a hobby. Any money that they can get from design work is just a bonus.

[morea]

There is far more to the graphic, photo, exhibit industry than some of the people from the print-only world can see, and many of them do not understand the nuances of photo rights, ownership, and usage.

oh, I totally agree. I certainly don't have a complete understanding of these things myself, so I spend a lot of time doing research before I begin any given project.

That's part of the problem facing hobbyist designers; while they may very well be able to teach themselves to use design software and also have a natural talent for putting things together to create an effective design, the "business side" of design is something that is often completely overlooked.

[Kool]

This is an interesting proposition, but I don't know if it's a practical one. Look at any of the countless "spec work" and "lowballing" threads on this forum alone; if this is going to be done, it needs to be done with a LOT of tact.

Unfortunately, it usually isn't, and it almost always ends up offending the designers who are doing the lowballing. That seldom results in anything more than petty bickering and doesn't help anyone at all.

Very good point.

I have my own theories that the people who can afford to offer their services for so little aren't overly concerned with little things like "business ethics," including paying for their own software, fonts, etc. To many of these people, GD isn't something that they care to 'learn' to do properly - most don't even consider the fact that it is a trained profession - it's just a little bit of extra money in their pocket now and then. Why should they CARE what this sort of behavior is doing "to the industry"? They normally have regular day jobs and get into GD as a hobby. Any money that they can get from design work is just a bonus.

While I agree there are a large number of the folks you describe. There is another segment of designers out there that I don't think has ever been mentioned in here. That segment is made up of the thousands of designers the schools are churning out who for whatever reason can't land a job. So they move on to a different career or get married and have a couple of kids and do the stay at home mom thing. Then they get back into design on a part time basis but without the overhead issues full time designers face. They can produce good design at a much lower cost than the rest of us.

[morea]

yes, definitely. That's another good point, Kool.

[PrintDriver]

The article did point one thing out that you should take to heart. Most lowball bids are thrown out by companies that care. And that the highest bid may be thrown out too unless there is not much of a spread between the highest and the 2nd highest.

You may not know who your competition is when supplying a bid or quote, but you have a better opportunity to know the market and mentality of your target client and work within those guidelines. Once a bid has been awarded, if you didn't get it, you can ask why and where you stood in the bid order. Usually you will get an answer which helps the next time. Don't be surprised if a job goes to someone who bid higher than you. With bids especially, presentation and references go a loooonnngg way to getting the work.

[frankster]

Having done a billboard or pop-up booth does not make you a large format graphic designer in all that the field encompasses and until someone actually can write an article that shows me they understand the entire scope of the field of design and photography as it relates to spec work then blogs are still only one person's opinion on what they think the world should be like.

Pretty much everything that is written (especially on the internet) is just one person's opinion. I am very aware that any opinion that I have is just an amalgamation of what any knowledge and experience that I've had to date can accumulate into. It's important that people share opinions no matter what thier level of understanding is, so that others with more knowledge or different experiences can add to the "thought soup" (please bear with the silly names I make up for things). I'm always confused by people who proclaim thier opinion without being interested in any rebuttle or conversation following it.

I've never done a large format job in my life, but I see them out there all over the place every day and so I am interested in how they are produced and consequently listen to what you and other people in the industry say about the subject, even if it doesn't impact my day to day work at the moment. Maybe one day I will find myself wanting to move in that direction.

[Kool]

blogs are still only one person's opinion on what they think the world should be like.

I disagree, all of my opinions are factual and correct. If you don't agree with me it just means you're dumb. ;)

See sig below

[PrintDriver]

Edit: ^Ah ha ha! Nice sig. I read that thread.:D

Right. I understand everyone has opinions. Actually I'm quite opinionated and tend to see things in a tight focus of what I do for work. But I do try to see beyond it. I've done enough 4-color print to understand where people are coming from in their opinions on spec and royalties and copyright issues. It's when they fail to understand the larger picture, even when the opportunity exists to learn more, and then stick to their view unrelentingly is where I lose interest in them.

[Kool]

Heh heh, you guys just watch. In six months or a year some petulant noob with a chip on their shoulder will dig up that quote and give me a big ration of shit about it LOL.

[morea]

*marks calendar*

[Logo-Mechanix]

That WILL happen Kool, I would bet on it as it always does.

[frankster]

It's when they fail to understand the larger picture, even when the opportunity exists to learn more, and then stick to their view unrelentingly is where I lose interest in them.

I think that's a general character flaw. People behave like this in all sorts of aspects of life and you're right, losing interest in them is probably the best way to go. I tend to loose interest in those that try to convert me to thier religion when they sell it with the attitude you describe. Parenting techniques is another area where I have had a gut full of preacher types.

[PrintDriver]

That's funny Frankster, I was reading an article, in Newsweek maybe(?), that was going on about the preachy Mom books out there today. It was a funny article. Especially the quip about the "British have a lot to answer for" when it comes to cover art and titles. ;)

[SpugNothuson]

"British have a lot to answer for"
:eek: Kool's going down!

I'm afraid I've been guilty of almost all points in this thread at one time or another.

The things I've done to bring a job through on budget.

On the flip side when I have taken the easy route I get a renewed vigour for going pro and the results are noticeable. :)

[morea]

why are you going to take Kool down for something PrintDriver said? That doesn't seem very nice. :p

[SpugNothuson]

Oops. Did anyone see where Kool's whiskers went? I think I can glue them back on if I'm careful.

Now look what you made me do PD. You're a nasty man. ;)

[Kool]

why are you going to take Kool down for something PrintDriver said? That doesn't seem very nice. :p

It's ok Morea, I was able to escape the Spug with my heightened cat reflexes. The whiskers will grow back. :D

[morea]

I have some old whiskers here if you'd like to wear them until yours grow back, Kool.

http://i9.tinypic.com/6hg9gxy.gif

[Kool]

Thanks Mo :D

I once read that a cats whiskers grow out to the same width as their body so the cat can tell if an opening is too narrow to squeeze through. Is that true or just another bit of urban legend nonsense?

[morea]

That's actually true. If I remember right, whiskers grow to be about as wide as a cat's shoulders (which is quite different than the width of their bodies with most of the cats I know!) and cats can normally squeeze through any opening that they can fit their head through. Sometimes you will see them "testing" whether they can fit through a small opening by sticking their head through.

Whiskers also help cats navigate - they are sensitive enough to detect changes in air currents, so if a cat is walking through a dark room and approaches an obstacle, he can sense it there and find his way around it by feeling the way the object blocks the air flow.

[Kool]

Cool, I always wondered if it was true although I did read it on the internet so it had to be true right. :D

[morea]

that's what I hear! ;)

[MyST]

Kool.

Did you do something different with your hair?
You look "hip".:D

[Kool]

Do you like it?

runs off to buy a curling iron

[MyST]

It has a certain "je ne sais what" to it.

[PrintDriver]

}8}
Sorry Kool.
At least they'll grow back.

[budafist]

Yes, don't cut a cat's whiskers off. They will walk funny...Or so I've heard.

Also, I'd just like to add about pay per image sites. It's not all about the price. I use them for our tight deadlines. Often our deadlines are a few hours to finish. There just isn't the luxury of time to find a photographer, organise a shoot etc as well as get those pics comped into the final design. Searching on stock sites is much faster.

[reuber1]

I have some old whiskers here if you'd like to wear them until yours grow back, Kool.

http://i9.tinypic.com/6hg9gxy.gif
I sure hope those are whiskers.:eek:

[PrintDriver]

But which stock sites? The stock sites where the photogs get $1 for every $4 charged or the Pro sites that charge upwards of $100 per shot?
Or will you argue why pay more for the pro site when a pennystock will do the job...
And you were saying?
}8]

Bad Reuber. Bad. LOL.

[budafist]

I would be interested to know which photographers make more money in a year: the ones that submit to Pro sites charging from $100 per photo (often with limited royalty use) or photographers that submit to the cheapie stock sites?

I've had a client pay $600 for a stock image (1 time use only) when my own design bill was only around $200. That's fine, I got them to buy the image themselves and email it to me - less risk at my end. It was a very specific image and wasn't available on the cheapie sites. There is a place for the cheaper stock images I believe and multiple downloads certainly help the photographer.

[PrintDriver]

I'd be interested to know the truthful amounts made by penny-stock photographers in a year. :D

I'm more interested in the correlation between what a pro gets paid and what a micro-stock hobbyist gets paid. You all hate the designers who work for Logoworks. Do you think pro photographers that make it into Stone/Getty or Corbis like the photographers who do microstocks? Or maybe they don't care. Just like a number of Pro designers in the world don't seem to care about the likes of Logoworks.

It's actually an eye-opener once in a while to talk with a designer who has never heard of the Logoworks controversy, doesn't read blogs, doesn't hang out in forums, are doing well for themselves, and just don't care.

I think you'd find that the photographers on the higher priced stock sites have thriving photography businesses of their own besides the stock shots. Same too with some of the microstock artists. But not all.

It's all conjecture though without actually having one of the Stone or Photonica artists wander through here.

[budafist]

I think there would be Pro photographers that put in their client rejected pieces onto microstock sites for some extra cash or at least for a "what if?".

I mean, if you've already taken the photo and no one is using it or has bought it, why not?

[PrintDriver]

You have to be very careful with "client rejected photos". You can't use proprietary products, people without model releases and site photos without property releases. For example a photog who takes wedding pictures can't use any shots, even the rejects, of the wedding party for anything without the people's permission. If the shots are taken in a private house or venue and don't include any people, they still would need permission of the venue owner.

On the other hand if a client asks you to go out and shoot some pictures of ducks, it all depends on your contract with the client what happens to the other photos you took. If they are paying for film and developing that's far different than if they contract you for 10 pics of ducks, you take 20 digital shots and only show them the 10 best ones.

Contract is very important.

[milano.design]

printdriver good point on the photography sites. but i have to say NORMALLY a small end client will go that route. and i'm glad to have it as an option if needed but more so than not, i think that its a wash sometimes, the amount of time i spend looking and charging my time to find the perfect shot even if its only 10 buxk for photo costs vs. just finding something similar to what i'm thinking, spending less of my time researching, and then having us shoot it .... but for comp purposes? i usually will put a photo i like in, and then client will shoot something similar for their needs. Either way i don't though consider that lowballing. The photo cost yes very cheap, but the time spent looking for it? by the time we are thru it still ends up being a $400 photo...

[thecat@]

Ok, based on the example given in the AIGA article, not to start this all up again (but I can't resist), when you guys do a project do you go to a photographer and pay his rates?
NO.
You go to the penny stock photo sites where the photos are what, 3 to 4 credits a piece for a decent sized 5x7? At a dollar a credit, one of which goes to the photog for each sale, these companies are making a killing. So you are in effect using the lowballers of the photography industry to raise YOUR bottom line. People are constantly trying to use that gak for large format instead of paying a real pro who shoots to film.

When you can say you don't support other forms of lowballing that you as designers use on a daily basis, from paper companies to print companies to photo companies, then come back and tell me you care.
You make very good points. And this has been a problem for me personally. BoDo's competition are using cheap photo and illustration stock but we just can't bring ourselves to go that route. Therefore, BoDo doesn't have artwork ... yet.

My time has been pretty cramped lately (yeah, I know, a broken record), but it's now getting freed up so after BoDo's revamp, I'm planning on sitting down in the weekends with a camera as well as brushing up on my illustration skills.

The other option is to get a friend to work probono.

Call me old fashioned, but I do believe these cheap photography / illustration sites are dragging the industry down.

(and yes, I know all the arguments for and against ... it's just how I feel)