Open Files

[Zilla Jacobs]

A client we designed a company logo for, changed to another design studio. The studio contacted us and requested we send them the open files for the logo. what is industry practice concerning open files...? Should we just give the files to them or are there any fees, copyright issues etc..?

Please any advice would be great.

Zilla

[obesebee]

Depends on your contract with the client. If you're ok sending them the files just send them EPSs with Pantone references and any brand guidelines.

But it boils down to the contract that you have/had with them.

[Zilla Jacobs]

Thank you very much. For future reverence: what can we do contract wise to prevent clients from moving their business to another design studio (less expensive - but not always as experienced) and using our open files.

Is their anything we can include in the contract?

[morea]

Yes, it depends on what it says in your contract.

For future projects, I'd recommend getting a copy of the GAG (Graphic Artists Guild) Handbook on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines - you can buy one through http://gag.org/pegs/index.php (or sometimes on ebay).

If you are planning to join the GAG, you get a copy for free with your membership.

[PrintDriver]

Logos are different from regular design. They should belong to the company that paid you to create them. When designing a logo you should be giving the client a disk with the logo in various raster as well as the 'open' vector art along with a PDF of Standards. If that is not what you priced/contracted, you might consider it in the future. The client should be able to do whatever he likes with his logo whenever he likes. As a courtesy you can keep the logo on file for when they lose it (and they will) then you charge a de-archive fee for email or a CD burning fee plus postage depending on how you send it out. You charge your client, not the dude calling you for the logo. Or you don't charge your client but remind them it's a nice service for them to be able to call you for it.
Designers that keep logos as hostages against future work may have other nasty habits...:p

[obesebee]

Yeah, I've worked with designers who refused to give out original logo artwork and it's just out of spite. V annoying.

[budafist]

Working at a print company we often request open files from designers who cannot and/or will not set up their files properly. Of course they get annoyed about it, but hey, if they set up their files to our specs properly, then I wouldn't be asking for their files.

Because you are losing money on future work from the client, I think you are totally entitled to charge for open files - unless of course your contract states that the open files belong to the client.

[PrintDriver]

What's even more fun is when the client or designer tells you to call another sign company for the logo because the other sign company vectorized it.
Don't I just lurv making those calls. <Not.> :Rolleyes:

[obesebee]

We've had to tell a photographer we've worked with that the photographs for a two day shoot he just completed aren't good enough. Awkward! That's what directors are for!

[onedarkangel_uk]

I have two contracts. One that is designing the logo but if they want the logo and use it whenever they want, and it's there, then that's a different contract and also different standard of pay.

So no. I don't just give them a logo and NO, they don't have right for the logo until they pay for the exact amount of such a right. A logo isn't just a logo. It's an identity, an image, branding, at the forefront of any company and takes a lot of time and thinking to create one.

So, if they want it all, no problem - I'll charge the full wack. Most say ok and most say no, but still design it and then come back to pay more when they want the right to plaster their logo everywhere and on TV.

That's how I work though, don't know about anyone else.

[Drazan]

Giving the client and editable logo file is ok, just as long as it is the final logo art and nothing more.

Also when doing logos you have to price for exclusivity. You never know when that mom & pop pizza place becomes a national franchise.

I believe that the client owns all the rights to the logo. All other artwork, designing etc is based on contract and is not usually exclusive, although we don't "cookie cut" our designs.

Jade

[PrintDriver]

I have two contracts. One that is designing the logo but if they want the logo and use it whenever they want, and it's there, then that's a different contract and also different standard of pay.

So no. I don't just give them a logo and NO, they don't have right for the logo until they pay for the exact amount of such a right. A logo isn't just a logo. It's an identity, an image, branding, at the forefront of any company and takes a lot of time and thinking to create one.

So, if they want it all, no problem - I'll charge the full wack. Most say ok and most say no, but still design it and then come back to pay more when they want the right to plaster their logo everywhere and on TV.

That's how I work though, don't know about anyone else.

You say "A logo isn't just a logo. It's an identity, an image, branding, at the forefront of any company and takes a lot of time and thinking to create one."

Whether they pay for the rights or not, it still should take the same amount of time and effort to come up with the indentity, branding, and image for a company. And I would hope that you are explaining to them what not owning the rights to their logo will cost them down the road. If they are going into business, they should know this but it also is a rather disingenuous means of doing business on your part as well if they don't.

[onedarkangel_uk]

You say "A logo isn't just a logo. It's an identity, an image, branding, at the forefront of any company and takes a lot of time and thinking to create one."

Whether they pay for the rights or not, it still should take the same amount of time and effort to come up with the indentity, branding, and image for a company. And I would hope that you are explaining to them what not owning the rights to their logo will cost them down the road. If they are going into business, they should know this but it also is a rather disingenuous means of doing business on your part as well if they don't.
Regarding what you mentioned on amount of time. In any business, one should run it with intregity. So this is irrelevant.

Regarding making sure clients know before hand etc - I already mentioned I have two contracts that they read before any work is undertaken. It stops confusion and disagreements later.

That should be obvious to you especially when it is business. No matter what business it is. Having clients and a growing business providing a service with companies like shell, dell, sony etc... the key is relationship is the essence of the business. Trust is what makes the business grow. Integrity and transparency is the key to any growing business. That I think should be obvious. Don't know why you mentioned it, although maybe some people don't run their business with integrity and transparency. Don't know.

Below is what what I mentoned earliar:

I have two contracts. One that is designing the logo but if they want the logo and use it whenever they want, and it's there, then that's a different contract and also different standard of pay.

So I made it clear now. Apologies if I didn't before.

[PrintDriver]

Right, two contracts the client gets to read. But if the client doesn't understand the difference between owning his logo to do as he sees fit and having to go back to a designer holding his logo's copyright to ask permission if he can put it on a pen or a watch fob is a big difference. As I said, someone going into business and commissioning a logo should know the difference but sometimes they don't.

Having someone outside the corporate entity holding the rights to a logo as hostage against future design and usage rights is ill-advised from the company's standpoint. What is to stop a designer who does this from denying usage? Where would this company be if they wanted to go to a print vendor or signshop other than the designer's preferred vendor? What if the designer decided s/he doesn't want the company to put "their artwork" on the back end of a donkey in a parade or print it on a promotional item such as a condom wrapper? What if the company owner wanted to do something with the logo that was completely out of the scope of the designer's capabilities? What is the per use charge and how does that compare to buying the logo with all rights? Does this get explained to the client?

Personally I would never allow a business client the option not to own their own logo and would point them in the proper directions for getting it registered as a trademark. I think you'll find this to be true industry-wide, especially among those who make trademarking and branding a sole focus of their business.

[onedarkangel_uk]

Right, two contracts the client gets to read. But if the client doesn't understand the difference between owning his logo to do as he sees fit and having to go back to a designer holding his logo's copyright to ask permission if he can put it on a pen or a watch fob is a big difference. As I said, someone going into business and commissioning a logo should know the difference but sometimes they don't.

Having someone outside the corporate entity holding the rights to a logo as hostage against future design and usage rights is ill-advised from the company's standpoint. What is to stop a designer who does this from denying usage? Where would this company be if they wanted to go to a print vendor or signshop other than the designer's preferred vendor? What if the designer decided s/he doesn't want the company to put "their artwork" on the back end of a donkey in a parade or print it on a promotional item such as a condom wrapper? What if the company owner wanted to do something with the logo that was completely out of the scope of the designer's capabilities? What is the per use charge and how does that compare to buying the logo with all rights? Does this get explained to the client?

Personally I would never allow a business client the option not to own their own logo and would point them in the proper directions for getting it registered as a trademark. I think you'll find this to be true industry-wide, especially among those who make trademarking and branding a sole focus of their business.

You know, sometimes, it's like talking to a brick wall. No problem. You can paint the world as whatever you want it to be. Here is the facts:

Who is the copyright owner?


Copyright is established when an original work is created, composed or written and fixed to a tangible medium such as paper, canvas, recording, a hard drive, on film, etc.

The copyright is owned by the creator.

Copyright ownership may be transferred and/or sold; this is accomplished usually via contract. In addition, works for hire are owned by the hiring entity.

Now, do you get it?

Do you also think designers are thick? That they would not have communicated all that the client needs to know? Or they haven't got a network of companies and entrepreneurial skills to specialist vision to cater all and any type of work from small to large companies? Or they haven't faced many challenges and different visions from different companies?

Let's get real here and let's no go into the world of "what if." It's ANNOYING and answers are obvious!

I am not going to put here DETAILS on how I do things. It should be common sense mate how to do business with clients. This is not about how one person does business but rather, how we all do business.

Now, it may be you don't like how I do business. No probs but then we're going in a different area here all together.

The point is this..

GET IT DOWN ON CONTRACT AND...make sure clients KNOW exactly what they are getting and....help them more to understand anything you feel they need to know.

If that isn't obvious, I don't know what is.

[budafist]

ondarkangel, I don't think it is obvious how we should do things as an industry. We all learn by trial and error. We learn what works for us personally as well as learning what is industry standard. Sometimes what we do personally is the standard - sometimes it is not.

We're here to share what proceedures we follow personally so that others can learn from their mistakes as well as ours.

[onedarkangel_uk]

ondarkangel, I don't think it is obvious how we should do things as an industry. We all learn by trial and error. We learn what works for us personally as well as learning what is industry standard. Sometimes what we do personally is the standard - sometimes it is not.

We're here to share what proceedures we follow personally so that others can learn from their mistakes as well as ours.
Thank you for your comment. Then, I would suggest, that we debate in a respective manner.

What one needs to know is, don't sell yourself short. It is a hinderance to the industry. The goal for any designer is their need to really understand what their vision is about their company. When you know this, then you are going to know what client you want.

Yes, I have said no to many clients but I have also given them opportunity with names of other designers who can help them. I said no to these clients because they are not really within my vision.

You and I, are in business. That business is how we run it and should not be dominated by what someone else thinks how to run it. Hence, this is why, you have the power, and self responsibility to first:

1. Making sure you know what your clients needs are.

2. Know, as well, in your questioning the client - is there a possibility of TV broadcasting, a wider scope of their product, company to be marketed in a national and global setting.

3. When you and I, understand what the clients needs are, we then go further, in showing them other avenues to see for sure, if they thought of everything.

Why? Because a client sometimes does not have much creative vision. They may come to us not knowing what they really want. I have had clients like that and they can come from small or large businesses.

The client will appreciate all the ideas, and education we give on diverse ways of marketing and that's when you may hear their ideas become clearer and vision and scope expanding.

If the scope is wider, then by now, as designers, you would have a vast network of companies you know very well, have worked together and can provide such a service as partners.

4. If they are widening the scope in future or not. The most honourable thing to do and the best is:

1. Explain each contract. Explain also, what the payment is for.

2. Explain the difference between having the logo design and having the rights to do whatever they wish with it in future. And explain the cost difference too. Let them choose. Don't be scared to give every information. You are not looking for any client but the client that is within the image and vision of your company.

3. Emphasis again the different payments. Make sure that they know, they may go big and want the logo to be used in all sorts. If they say, they just want logo for this and that, then no problem. That's when the next step comes in:

4. When all is clear, type out exactlythe "Client's Project Information.'

That makes everything clear in both sides.

5. Then I make sure the contract is agreed and signed. In it I explain, verbally that this work and payment is for this and that and not for right of the logo to be used for this and that.

6. When that is done, then we both sign a non - disclosure agreement signed too. In other words, it is a contract through which the parties agree not to disclose information covered by the agreement. It creates a confidential relationship between the parties to protect any type of trade secret. As such, an NDA can protect non-public business information.

And following all these - I have had no problems with clients. I will know if the client is shady when they try to barter with prices. I don't barter prices, nor the agreement I want them to sign, period. Nor give discounts.

Doing it this way, provides you and I as a designer and entrepreneur professionalism, posture, credibility and shows how serious we are as entrepreneurs.

Finally, no matter how much one learns in forums or books - 5% is taught and the 95% is caught. You can only really learn by stepping the in arena and doing the work.

Preparation is your double edge sword and integrity, honesty.

Below are information, templates that everyone can adapt and use. Scroll down when you get to the website for more templates, information:
http://desktoppub.about.com/od/contracts/Graphic_Design_Contracts_and_Forms_for_Desktop_Pub lishing.htm

Hope the above info is helpful and is very clear.

[budafist]

I agree with your terms but I don't believe we have the power. Our clients pay our bills so our clients have the power. Unless you have far too much work on your plate and can reject many clients and jobs, as someone providing a service, you need to give you clients what they want or they will walk.

Sure in an ideal world where there was a shortage of designers we could dictate our terms. That world doesn't exist.

I don't barter prices because I believe my prices reasonable. My clients seem to think so too.

I hope you don't find this horribly contradictory!

[onedarkangel_uk]

I agree with your terms but I don't believe we have the power. Our clients pay our bills so our clients have the power. Unless you have far too much work on your plate and can reject many clients and jobs, as someone providing a service, you need to give you clients what they want or they will walk.

Sure in an ideal world where there was a shortage of designers we could dictate our terms. That world doesn't exist.

I don't barter prices because I believe my prices reasonable. My clients seem to think so too.

I hope you don't find this horribly contradictory!
No, I don't find it horrible contradictory at all as I understand where you're coming from. I hope, you don't find me arrogant too.

Let me make something a little clear. Your clients don't and will NEVER have power over you. Nor do they pay your bills. You may now say, "but their money pay our bills." No, they don't.

You see, I was at that thinking 15 years ago until I figured something out. And now, I do not talk to clients as though I need them. I talk as though THEY NEED ME. And you know the funny thing. Instead of them get to walk away, I have more clients with this attitude and mentality than I ever did when I thoughts customers are people who put bread and butter on table.

You and I attract what we think. You attract with what you put in life. And when you run a business like a tornado, and your energy is focused on your vision, and you do not compromise, and you do MORE than anyone out there in networking, MORE than anyone out there is calling, recieve even MORE than anyone out there in getting rejections, and you do MORE in going out in the arena, plan more, goal set more, apply it all NOW instead of procrastinating MORE - you will RECIEVE more customers than you could ever imagine.

And like me, I grew to realise - there are people out there who see you not as a designer but as a gifted person and they will do whatever it takes to have your skill.

I have last year even said to a client to take a hike when they wanted me to compromise my vision of my company. Yes, I said it nicely too but I made my message clear. Why? Because I learnt a few things about people skills and diverse personalities of people and non-verbal messages people give. And that happens, an alarm rings inside of me. Someting which we all have but many don't listen to it because all they think is - MONEY. That's when they lose, always.

This is what I mean about "the vision of your company." When you are clear on who you are, what you want out of life, what clients you are looking for, what is your direction, and also, know the laws of the Supply and Demand in this Universal world, then no man, no woman can control you, and you will also realise....it's not you who bring the customers by coincidental meeting or flyer advert, or a phone call. It is more than this.

There is a system for everything. Life has one to and it's called the laws of sucess or the principles of success.

It's to do with all the actions you did in past but many of us saw these actions nothing much but getting a client or losing one.

Each action that does not compromise your vision of your company is like a stone thrown in a river. You then see a ripple drifting away and you walk away thinking nothing of it.

But, if you are consistent, you would have thrown more stones, and bigger ones through the past weeks, months and years, and do so with such vigour, you give it all you got. Then you really see bigger impact, the ripples or waves are bigger and they reach a certain end fast to RETURN to you faster with prosperity.

No. Clients don't put bread and butter on my table. No, clients are not ALWAYS right. No, they don't determine whether you and I succeed. You and I determine when we succeed not them, when we have lots of clients, when our business grows by our own consistent actions of applying the laws of a system that worked for centuries and that many major entreprenuerial designers use.

Your clients have power? When did clients predict your future and destiny? Your clients have power when we let them. When do not know the laws of success and base it on "clients" as gods and our bill payers, then you always be slaved to this and not your capability of your true genuises, skills, and driven focus.

The goal is NOT having eveyone as clients. The goal is, finding the RIGHT client and that means we say NO to the one who is not in sync with our company vision.

Clients a need and I got a need. I'll provide them the service to help with their need IF and ONLY if, they don't push me to compromise the way I do business.

Try thinking you need the client within the big world of multi-billion companies and they would eat you alive. They look for posture, they look for determined, focused, dynamic and talent. And when they find that, they would pay the world for it. Talent never made anyone successful. yes, it is part of an ingredrient but, what makes one successful is attitude, planning, goal setting, ethics, character, consistency, perserverance. Pushing to cross the finish line.

The only reason designers think the client is bread and butter is because they don't do enough networking and be consistent and go for it, and aim at the throat of life. In other words - they haven't got a lot of clients or phone doesn't call everyday for design work.

When you have plenty of clients, you won't be thinking that way but what you will be thinking is like an entrepreneur, "They have a need. What is it? I'll find it and supply it."

Hence, the trick isn't how good you are as a designer. No. It's knowing the needs of your clients, being a good listener, knowing diverse personalities of people and knowing how to use that knowledge to influence a decision, and design...is last. Design or my portfolio is opened up always last.

Yes, last. People don't care how much you know but rather, they do business with you because they feel safe, secure, they like you, you got that personality, you care about their company, you asked questions about their vision and then.....on top...when you show you got the skill too..that closes the deal.

One example:

I never show my portfolio like that, when i meet a client in the first 15 minutes of meeting them. So what do I do? I first get to know the client, and do so genuinely.

I got into business to make a difference to the world not for money. I already had, "the boss puts bread on my table," and seen how it made slave out of me. It's not a positive thinking for an entrepreneur.

Money ain't real. People are, so I aim my skills in knowing people. That's what makes money for me. Now, that seems contradictory but it ain't when you go deep into it. The more skills you have with people, the more control YOU HAVE in choosing from many to provide a service to.

[budafist]

Wow. A good wow. I guess my company has yet to evolve to that stage. On the good side, I'm freelancing in my spare time with a day job paying my bills so I do have the financial freedom to turn down work I do not think is worth my time. Still got a long way to go to get to where you are though.

[onedarkangel_uk]

Wow. A good wow. I guess my company has yet to evolve to that stage. On the good side, I'm freelancing in my spare time with a day job paying my bills so I do have the financial freedom to turn down work I do not think is worth my time. Still got a long way to go to get to where you are though.

It's good to hear from another entrepreneur cause as someone mentioned here - we learn from each other. I am still growing and a person will always grow. When growing stop, its, well, its over.

You're already there. You just might not know it yet. You'll know what I mean as time goes by.

Can I ask one question budafist - do you plan everyday, or plan for the week, month? And goal set?

[budafist]

Can I ask one question budafist - do you plan everyday, or plan for the week, month? And goal set?

No plans for the business side of things. We had plans to register our business but even that has been put on hold. These days we are shifting our priorities and we would rather concentrate on saving money to go overseas as soon as possible for some time rather than build our business (only to leave our clients hanging for a year when we travel).

Sometimes life gets in the way of work. No harm. I have the rest of my life to work!

[PrintDriver]

I don't need a lecture on copyright, trust me...mate.
I've been doing this just as long as you have.

The way industry works may be different in your location. Business practice in the UK may differ from the US. I tend to forget that this is an international forum and that business practices change from country to country. The OP is from South Africa. We could both be wrong.

I'm hoping one of the other professional logo-only designers will come along and explain how they do things. I'm thinking of Jeff Fisher in particular...

[graphicsmama]

Hence, the trick isn't how good you are as a designer. No. It's knowing the needs of your clients, being a good listener, knowing diverse personalities of people and knowing how to use that knowledge to influence a decision, and design...is last. Design or my portfolio is opened up always last.
I gotta say, I totally hear you on this....I have only been doing this for a couple of years and recently I was pitted against another graphic design firm on a job. I knew if they (the client) asked to see my portfolio I was sunk merely because I only have a few things printed and everything else is digital (which I'm working on, believe me!). They had only seen one sample of my work actually... BUT I had the vision of what they wanted to do because I listened to them and I was totally on board with their needs/desires. When it came down to it, they ended up not even interviewing the other firm and didn't bat an eye when I gave them my estimate either. It was the most exciting moment for me. On top of it, they loved the designs I did.

I think that the perspective that darkangel has that we don't view ourselves as slaves to our clients is very good. It's hard to see that though because so many of us that freelance are living "job to job"...but I definitely think it's something to strive for. Not in the arrogant sense, but in the sense of being confident in our skills and abilities to give our clients what they need. I consider it not just a benefit to myself to have those qualities, but to this profession in general...so many lack respect for the arts period and I think it's a shame!

Interesting debate! :)

[onedarkangel_uk]

I don't need a lecture on copyright, trust me...mate.
I've been doing this just as long as you have.

The way industry works may be different in your location. Business practice in the UK may differ from the US. I tend to forget that this is an international forum and that business practices change from country to country. The OP is from South Africa. We could both be wrong.

I'm hoping one of the other professional logo-only designers will come along and explain how they do things. I'm thinking of Jeff Fisher in particular...
Fortunatley, The world,no matter where you are is the same.

Yes, I am UK but my clients are in USA, UK, Brazil, Germany, South Africa, Uganda, Yemen, Arab Emirates and at least more than 30 countries. I deal with them the same:

"THIS is HOW I do business and here's the contract."

But let's say, someone rips you off and you are in USA and the client is in Brazil. Actually, no, how about Africa or England.

What you going to do. Fly over and sue the client? Then pay for court fees? And lawyers fees? Or send warning letters.

I so like to hear this answer cause from where I am standing, I hear "prevention" by getting to know ones client is a fundamental key first and contract.