poster 2??????

[teaorcoffee?]

can you guys tell me if this is executing well enough!!

cheers

[Two-Toe Tom]

arr, i dun get it, sorry

[Ned]

Hmmm... The illustration wants me to diagnose it. The caption says "Positive Drinking". Since the background is black, it's obvious that the negative space is sitting at the bottom of the cup, whereas the wine-filled (positive space) is hovering over it. So this is a wine that turns the negative to postive, and the positive to negative?

[Logo-Mechanix]

Ayyyyy, she be a clever lass.

[Fantômas]

hmm...this poster must be for Francisco Mantecon annual advertising campaign for the Bodegas Winery. ;)

[teaorcoffee?]

good so you think that it work well??? do you like it??

[Two-Toe Tom]

arrr, i think tis asking too much of the audience, even with ned's explanation, i'm still not sure what the message is exactly, arrr

[teaorcoffee?]

it means optimisum... because the glass is half full.

[Fantômas]

i think this is very vague and the audience will NOT get it. Your helvetica poster is much further along. :D;)

[Ned]

Arr, matey, I believes it be 6/5ths full.

[teaorcoffee?]

ok maybe instead of positive drinking i could put... 'lets be optmistic'

[Two-Toe Tom]

but the glass is also half empty, but its just the bottom half that's empty, arrrr :confused:

[Jackimalyn]

the thing is, you can "be optimistic" but if my glass looked full and I only drank half a glass of wine and my glass was empty, i think id be pissed.

yarr

[Two-Toe Tom]

how about: half empty, half full, who cares, just fill er up with grog, ARRRRRRRR!

[Blanket_509]

How about "Always Half Full" or "Drink Half Full"

[Exodus]

I understood this poster much faster than the Helvetica Five-O poster. However, it is lacking something... I don't really like the flourishes used for the pouring wine either. The glass also seems bulky and "modern" which contrasts to the feeling generally associated with wine drinking. Maybe make it with thinner lines...

[Ned]

I understood this poster much faster than the Helvetica Five-O poster.

Arrr, matey, that be Helvetioa Five-O ye be thinking of.

[Exodus]

Aarrr, Indeed.

[tZ]

I see a face… not sure thats positive.

[budafist]

I don't think this works so well with a wine glass because people don't usually fill up wine glasses to the top anyway. So it doesn't look half full by wine drinking standards, it looks full.

[frankster]

Arrr, matey, that be Helvetioa Five-O ye be thinking of.

Every time someone says Helvetica Five-O in these posts my brains starts humming the Hawaii Five-0 theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvbIGDWQvCk).

Da-da, Da-daaa, Da, Daaaaaa...
Da-da, Da-da, Daaaaaaaa...
Da-da, Da-daaa, Da, Daaaaaaaa!
Da-da, Da-da, DAAAAA!!!!

[teaorcoffee?]

well i live in england and dont have a clue about hawaii five 0 theme tunes. and how can you possibly say that five - 0 connects with police and hawaii when you can clearly see that the poster clebrates a 50 year anniverary and the connection should be made straight away. im afraid critisim like this only comes when your trying to find something wrong with it. If you look in ALL the threads people on here only critsise the work its hardly constructive critisim what you are giving out. most people on here are two stupid to even realise what good graphic design is and just think that making something look good is job done. i will only except good constructive critisim from people that actually understand the meaning of graphic design in my threads, if you do not fall within this category please dont waste your time in the future.

[onedarkangel_uk]

I does make you think and wonder, so maybe your design works. Isn't positive, colour blue or its kind of has Hue effect or saturation? Just a thought.

But, I like this style. Reminds me of the gangster years in old days, you know what we would see on TV, with old guns, hats, champaign. Cool. I'd be so wanting to see that style with people cause its a style I like.

[captain spanky]

i think the glass is waay too heavy.
wine glasses should be as light as the wine inside them. :)

[obesebee]

I didn't get this at all. The concept doesn't work here, but the styling and colours are pretty good. I see what you are trying to do, but with an image like the one you have I think you would have to actually have the term "glass half full" written somewhere. Then it would be nice to see the image given that context. But without help from either the image or copy, it is too tricky to get.

Again, almost there, just not quite. Some of the trickiest things to get are the final details that make great designs, as my old director used to say: "The devil is in the detail."

And by the way, calling us too stupid to understand good design is out of order. You're posting you're work for criticism and naturally the negatives get pointed out as those are the parts that need putting right.

If I want compliments on my work I show it to my mum.

[captain spanky]

If I want compliments on my work I show it to my mum.

hahahahaha cool :)

[Samakimoto Graphics]

As my mentor says "Design is in the detail..."

[Danger_Mouse]

I like it. I just think it needs some tweaking.

Your wine bottle....make it a little more 3d...."wrap" the label more around your 2d bottle to give 3d effect.

The bottom white stripe is very distracting...I would get rid of the the black bottom and just make it all white. The tagline and the logo in the white area seem lost to me. More emphasis.

As for the whole "half empty half full blah blah blah" I would play around with that a bit. The right tag line will help bring it all together.

Also the wine glass is a little too boring and geometric for me. I would give it a little bit of shape.

As for your following comments....

"im afraid critisim like this only comes when your trying to find something wrong with it."
- I have learned this is becoming more and more true in here. Alot of "know how's" in here who love to tear up the juniors or tear down some egos. But... really you posted it, you asked for it. Take with a grain of salt.

"If you look in ALL the threads people on here only critsise the work its hardly constructive critisim what you are giving out."

- I think most of us ARE trying to be constuctive for the most part.

"most people on here are two stupid to even realise what good graphic design is and just think that making something look good is job done."

- you mean TOO STUPID right?


" i will only except good constructive critisim from people that actually understand the meaning of graphic design in my threads, if you do not fall within this category please dont waste your time in the future."

- Well you could just ignore the BS and take the constructive parts...but I hear what you are saying.

[Exodus]

well i live in england and dont have a clue about hawaii five 0 theme tunes. and how can you possibly say that five - 0 connects with police and hawaii when you can clearly see that the poster clebrates a 50 year anniverary and the connection should be made straight away. im afraid critisim like this only comes when your trying to find something wrong with it. If you look in ALL the threads people on here only critsise the work its hardly constructive critisim what you are giving out. most people on here are two stupid to even realise what good graphic design is and just think that making something look good is job done. i will only except good constructive critisim from people that actually understand the meaning of graphic design in my threads, if you do not fall within this category please dont waste your time in the future.
Chill out, dude.

Hawaii Five-O was a TV show in the 80s.

Also, if you do not like the critique given here, feel free to try somewhere else. I guarantee you will get a much harsher critique anywhere else on the net (or in the classroom for that matter). Most of us on this forum have been in the industry for quite awhile and are being nice enough to take our own time out of our day to help.

Try posting your work on one of these forums for critique:

howforums.com

or

adsoftheworld.com

[Danger_Mouse]

Chill out, dude.

Hawaii Five-O was a TV show in the 80s.

Also, if you do not like the critique given here, feel free to try somewhere else. I guarantee you will get a much harsher critique anywhere else on the net (or in the classroom for that matter). Most of us on this forum have been in the industry for quite awhile and are being nice enough to take our own time out of our day to help.

Try posting your work on one of these forums for critique:

howforums.com

or

adsoftheworld.com

Wow

[teaorcoffee?]

i never said i wanted complimants, just constructive criticisim not criticisim for the sake of it. i think people on here take it to far and turn it into a joke. im all for helping people if they need HELP but not saying that there work sucks, thats just rude and not helping at all. pointing someone in the right direction is helping, saying that there work looks crud is not. surely thats not what this forum is for.

And if i put glass half full somewhere thats just giving the whole connection away, theres no point. just because you didnt get it doesnt mean it doesnt work for other people. i have had a lot of positive feed back on this poster and i just wanted to test it out on here. i would like to see some of your work, just to see your stlye so i know where your coming from.

[Danger_Mouse]

"And if i put glass half full somewhere thats just giving the whole connection away, theres no point. just because you didnt get it doesnt mean it doesnt work for other people."

Agreed.

"ok maybe instead of positive drinking i could put... 'lets be optmistic'"

I like that one.

[Exodus]

*cough*

I understood this poster much faster than the Helvetica Five-O poster. However, it is lacking something... I don't really like the flourishes used for the pouring wine either. The glass also seems bulky and "modern" which contrasts to the feeling generally associated with wine drinking. Maybe make it with thinner lines...

[obesebee]

This is one of mine, rip into it all you like!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beauty-Ashes-Journeys-Recovery-Genocide/dp/1850787220/ref=sr_1_3/026-9360293-7590857?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190292272&sr=8-3

What I was saying is that you have to give the viewer something to get into the idea, and for me there wasn't enough in this one. Just my opinion. I honestly know what it's like getting concepts through to the finish, and I've had the heart and soul ripped out of my ideas before, but it's good to see you've got some fight about it all - you need it in this industry! Just don't call people stupid, if you don't agree, just nod and smile.

Unless of course they are right..!

[teaorcoffee?]

lol.. ok maybe the wine galss could be made with thinner lines, but i do think that the 'flourishes' give it an nice feel not just hard lines everywhere. so mybe if i thin everything out a little it might help the top of the glass stand out more, making it a little easier to get!!??! what do you think??

exodus... did you see the new helvetica poster?? what did you think to the changes?

[Exodus]

It's somewhat better since the connotation is clearer. I feel that it needs to show more of the word (just a little) so that the idea jumps to the front of the brain much quicker.

[teaorcoffee?]

well i like to express how i feel about a comment good or bad. and for someone to turn my design into a silly song then im afriad im going to voice my opinion on how i feel about that person.

[teaorcoffee?]

ok... sound about right. what word tho?? helvetica or the type at the top and the bottom??

[Danger_Mouse]

I don't mind the flourishes personally, they are just fine and agree that they are a nice touch contrasting against the other very geometrical shapes/lines.

Thinning the lines might help too, I just find the shape very static. For example the bottom of the glass edges are squared off. I think something more rounded or something. Play with it a bit. It's just a bit TOO iconic for me.

[teaorcoffee?]

ok, but im afriad clip art is my style at the moment and really like how it send its meassage across simple and clean, because then you can have a nice idea behind it 'hopefully' without to much confusion. i just dont want the design to take anything away from the idea. but i will change edges and try my best to make it not so bulky.

[Exodus]

well i like to express how i feel about a comment good or bad. and for someone to turn my design into a silly song then im afriad im going to voice my opinion on how i feel about that person.

I feel one of the great problems with the internet is that one cannot interact face to face. I am sure that you would be less inclined to voice your opinion on someone in a classroom setting.

Besides, did we not settle this discussion already?

This is why I do not comment on showcase pieces anymore unless it is for a regular on the forum. Pardon my momentary lapse in judgment.

[Logo-Mechanix]

most people on here are two stupid to even realise what good graphic design is and just think that making something look good is job done.

So you ask for our help by insulting us, I take offense at this. Post that thing over on one of the forums Exodus mentioned and see what you get. We like to joke around on here and keep things kind of loose, I think you got a lot of constructive criticism. Befoe you call us stupid you may want to check your grammar.

[captain spanky]

coooool it's been aaaages since we had a fight on here...
i brought some stuff...

http://www.beachstore.com/images/BY235-02.jpghttp://www.studerservices.com/shop/images/101323.jpghttp://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20051208/wsblog/duff_beer.jpg

[morea]

it means optimisum... because the glass is half full.

i think this is very vague and the audience will NOT get it.

agreed. It's a nice illustration, but I don't think that it conveys the message that you are trying for.

If you look in ALL the threads people on here only critsise the work its hardly constructive critisim what you are giving out.

WHAT? :eek: This is not true. Don't take criticism of your work so personally. There is some great feedback in this thread.


most people on here are two stupid to even realise what good graphic design is and just think that making something look good is job done. i will only except good constructive critisim from people that actually understand the meaning of graphic design in my threads, if you do not fall within this category please dont waste your time in the future.

YOU are the designer; it's your job to make sure that the message comes through in your work - not just to other designers, but to the general public. Hurling insults isn't going to make people want to help you, nor is it going to make a weak concept work any better.


i never said i wanted complimants, just constructive criticisim not criticisim for the sake of it.

It IS constructive because it gives you the chance to make some changes so that people "get" what you're trying to say.


just because you didnt get it doesnt mean it doesnt work for other people.

it seems to NOT work for the majority. As it stands right now, it's too vague.



well i like to express how i feel about a comment good or bad. and for someone to turn my design into a silly song then im afriad im going to voice my opinion on how i feel about that person.

Everybody here is *volunteering* their feedback. This forum is professional, but it's also a pretty laid back community and people like to have a good time. If you don't like someone's post, just skip it. We don't allow personal attacks here, even if you "don't like what somebody said".


calling us too stupid to understand good design is out of order. You're posting you're work for criticism and naturally the negatives get pointed out as those are the parts that need putting right.

If I want compliments on my work I show it to my mum.

good advice.


i would like to see some of your work, just to see your stlye so i know where your coming from

ah, this is what happens every time someone gets their hackles up. Here's the answer from our Showcase FAQ:



How can I trust your opinions if I haven't seen your work?

Most of the members here are professionals who are working in the design industry. Everyone here gives their honest, if sometimes blunt, opinion. They do not do this to be "mean" or to imply that your work is not as good as theirs, but in order to help you to recognize aspects of your work that you can improve. Seeing their work is irrelevant, just as you wouldn’t ask your basketball coach to shoot some freethrows if he tells you your shots needed work.

Let's keep it above the belt so we don't have to lock this thread.

[mattbing]

I don't get some people at this forum, I really don't.
Seems like whenever someone on here that has actual talent, ask for feedback everyone gives them a hardtime... But come on here with a poster that is completely mediocre, with lots of cheesy effects and/or font usage it gets tonnes of positive feedback.

I think the poster looks great it's simple, elegant and very hip.

[Logo-Mechanix]

Captain, you kill me...in a good way.

I am not trying to start a fight here but for you to call most of the people on here TWO stupid to know what good graphic design is not only insults me but my friends as well and to that I take offense. Bottom line is we are not going to change the way we are for you so if you don't like people joking around in your threads just overlook them, you got a lot of helpful criticism along with the jokes.

[tZ]

I'm curious since, you seem to know all about "good design" tell me why your poster is successful based on design principles and them alone.

[obesebee]

I don't get some people at this forum, I really don't.
Seems like whenever someone on here that has actual talent, ask for feedback everyone gives them a hardtime... But come on here with a poster that is completely mediocre, with lots of cheesy effects and/or font usage it gets tonnes of positive feedback.

I think the poster looks great it's simple, elegant and very hip.

The reason this happens is that when someone who is obviously new posts some obviously amateur work you go easy on them as they are new to it, and point out the basic mistakes.

When someone who obviously knows about design posts work you assume they are looking for a deeper level of criticism and therefore adjust the level (ie give a hardtime). If we just said, "that's lovely", nothing would be gained.

The poster in question is simple and elegant, but it doesn't work.

[frankster]

Wow! I've totally inadvertantly started a massive brawl! I'm from the UK too and under 30 and know of Hawaii Five-0 (I do live in the US now though). I just thought it was a little humerous that my brain made that connection. If you look around the forum for Dr Two-toe Tom, he prescribes the chill pills.

I like your simplistic execution with your posters, but although they have interesting concepts, they are a little too hard to get for the average viewer. The Helvetica one might work better because it's viewers are more likely to be graphic designers and as such they are more likely to stick around and try to actively understand it's meaning.

[morea]

I think that you got some great feedback here:

Since the background is black, it's obvious that the negative space is sitting at the bottom of the cup, whereas the wine-filled (positive space) is hovering over it.

but the glass is also half empty, but its just the bottom half that's empty

that's how it looks to me, too.


it is lacking something... I don't really like the flourishes used for the pouring wine either. The glass also seems bulky and "modern" which contrasts to the feeling generally associated with wine drinking. Maybe make it with thinner lines...

i think the glass is waay too heavy.
wine glasses should be as light as the wine inside them. :)

yes, the wine glass itself is really thick.


I like it. I just think it needs some tweaking.

Your wine bottle....make it a little more 3d...."wrap" the label more around your 2d bottle to give 3d effect.

The bottom white stripe is very distracting...I would get rid of the the black bottom and just make it all white. The tagline and the logo in the white area seem lost to me. More emphasis.

As for the whole "half empty half full blah blah blah" I would play around with that a bit. The right tag line will help bring it all together.

Also the wine glass is a little too boring and geometric for me. I would give it a little bit of shape.

As DM said here, the bottle could use some depth. Also, the label is positioned quite high on the bottle and looks a bit strange. I would recommend adding a curve to the top of the label so that it makes it look like it is attached to a rounded bottle instead of just placed on a flat object.

I do think that you need to clarify the tagline, since the connection you are trying to make is not immediately obvious. Most people won't try really hard to 'get' your message. If they have to think about it too much they will just move on to something else. People have short attention spans.

[Two-Toe Tom]

yeah, i should've handed it out earlier, but i secretly wanted to see a fight :o

well here it is:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4072/chillpillzk7.jpg

:D

[Danger_Mouse]

Tea came in here looking for a critique. In two pages of response there are about two positive constructive comments. The rest is babble really.

Then when TEA gets angry and posts some comments (which were inappropriate in some areas yes), everyone is quick to jump on him/her about it. Comments about "see what you get at such and such a forum" etc etc. What the heck does that solve besides escalating the situation? And why is it necessary to constantly take pot shots at these other forums? All Tea wanted was a critique.
While I haven't been posting as much, I still read alot. I am noticing a certain amount of hostility and lack of patience in the past few months. Even KOOL one of the moderators made a comment about in a recent thread. Lots of great people and backgrounds here, such a great resource, but I can't help but wince at the way some threads are responded to at times.

[Kool]

Ack, I hate these threads. OK I went back and read this whole thread. Everything was fine until around post 22 when teaorcoffee posted this:

well i live in england and dont have a clue about hawaii five 0 theme tunes. and how can you possibly say that five - 0 connects with police and hawaii when you can clearly see that the poster clebrates a 50 year anniverary and the connection should be made straight away. im afraid critisim like this only comes when your trying to find something wrong with it. If you look in ALL the threads people on here only critsise the work its hardly constructive critisim what you are giving out. most people on here are two stupid to even realise what good graphic design is and just think that making something look good is job done. i will only except good constructive critisim from people that actually understand the meaning of graphic design in my threads, if you do not fall within this category please dont waste your time in the future.

Bottom line this forum will always have off topic posts in any thread, deal with it. It was also Talk Like A Pirate day so that added a bit to the highjinks. But if you post something like the above you have to expect people taking exception to being called stupid because they don't agree with you.

teaorcoffee, take the chill pill, disregard any posts that you don't like and use any advice you wish.

[teaorcoffee?]

ok guys, ive taken the chill pill, its now lodged in my throat (they need to make them things a tad smaller) but all i was after in this was some good constuctive criticisim, i have had some really helpful tips from people and some really useless stuff that didnt help anything.

my new poster will be up shortly, constuctive criticism welcome.

[teaorcoffee?]

I don't get some people at this forum, I really don't.
Seems like whenever someone on here that has actual talent, ask for feedback everyone gives them a hardtime... But come on here with a poster that is completely mediocre, with lots of cheesy effects and/or font usage it gets tonnes of positive feedback.

I think the poster looks great it's simple, elegant and very hip.



thank you very much.

[SpookyTheMayor]

I got it almost instantly, and it made me smile, good work! i like it

[ellamac]

My thoughts, when I first looked at it was that it was whiskey, and I wondered why it was being poured into a wine glass! I think from the colours used, it was too brown to be white wine... and the logo of the wine, but that's not your fault!

I didn't understand the message about the glass being half full, maybe because I was too focused on the flourishes. if there was more perspective in the glass, perhaps that would make it more obvious? And I did laugh when I saw the message revealed, as it's something my dad always used to say... "I'll just have the top half"

I like the simplicity of it too, but my attention was drawn away too quickly by the white banner at the bottom. Maybe if I kept looking I woud have got the message!!!

[teniworks]

Tea came in here looking for a critique. In two pages of response there are about two positive constructive comments. The rest is babble really.

Then when TEA gets angry and posts some comments (which were inappropriate in some areas yes), everyone is quick to jump on him/her about it.

Danger, I think that the issue is that no one is forced to post anything on GDF. So when you post something and want a critique of it, you should be willing to accept it good, bad, or indifferent. It's part of being a designer and it's part of being an adult. You can't expect to post something and receive only glowing remarks about it. Personally, I have learned so much from posting work on here and having people who know what they're talking about critique my work.

I agree with most of the remarks about the "positive drinking"-it does not immediately read well. So if we as designers don't think that it makes sense, then it won't make sense to your audience. It is your audience that you're appealing to, right? Or are you looking for someone to pat you on the head and tell you how good you are? Do you want to make your work stronger or remain the same and not as strong just because you think it looks good? Don't post if you can't take the criticism.

[meadowyck]

Guess I'm rather backward as I never would have gotten what Ned said.

[Danger_Mouse]

Danger, I think that the issue is that no one is forced to post anything on GDF. So when you post something and want a critique of it, you should be willing to accept it good, bad, or indifferent. It's part of being a designer and it's part of being an adult.
Agreed. I just think sometimes the delivery (although may not meant to be) can be a little sharp at times. If someone gets 'sharp' with me in person, I may just be as 'sharp' back. I would always rather criticism over sugar coating anyday as well. And for the record, I am not personally attacking any one individual on GDF, I like and think everyone is great on here and personally take things with a grain of salt. I just made an observation and commented why I think some escalations might occur on here.

You can't expect to post something and receive only glowing remarks about it. Personally, I have learned so much from posting work on here and having people who know what they're talking about critique my work.
I didn't say it all has to be glowing remarks, I was talking about the delivery of the critique. You can tear someone apart in a positive way without sugar coating it so that people do not get emotionally charged in a negative way.
And for the record there is more positive feedback from people in here then negative, so If I ruffled a few feathers in my comments, it wasn't my intent. In hindsight, one of those posts I should have kept to myself, but ah well.
The humor in the forum is what keeps me here. Very laid back. But to someone new to forum sometimes might seem frustrating when just trying to get some constructive results. But Kool said it right....Deal with it. Forum conduct is well posted in GDF for anyone to read.


So if we as designers don't think that it makes sense, then it won't make sense to your audience. It is your audience that you're appealing to, right?
Just because a designer and peers think it makes sense doesn't always mean it's the best choice, especially when client demands limit you. Of course I would like to think we as designers all STRIVE towards making sense to the audience as you said, though it is not always successful. I see large ad campaigns all the time that are essentially a waste of a lot of money. Run through some overload design firm that is pumping stuff out that hasn't had the proper focus due to time restraints or what have you. And, a REALLY awesome mind blowing design can still be a huge failure if not executed correctly with a backed up marketing strategy.


Or are you looking for someone to pat you on the head and tell you how good you are? Do you want to make your work stronger or remain the same and not as strong just because you think it looks good? Don't post if you can't take the criticism.
A pat on the pack never hurts, but that's not what I was saying at all, nor was I talking about Not taking criticism. You post it, you're going to get critiques by potentially hundreds of other peers in your field, some good , some bad, some just a waste of babbled, or highjacked with humor.
I was commenting on a observation on delivery lately. So before being burned at the stake here (haha) let's not make this into anything bigger than what it was...and my apologies if anyone took offense at GDF(which I don't think happened, but none the less).

Anywhoooooooooooo....would like to see that final poster design when you are ready with it!

[teniworks]

Just because a designer and peers think it makes sense doesn't always mean it's the best choice, especially when client demands limit you. Of course I would like to think we as designers all STRIVE towards making sense to the audience as you said, though it is not always successful.
I understand what you are saying Danger and maybe I should have sectioned off my rant a little better. Since I am out of my cloud of rage now, what I was trying to get at was that: you (not you personally) have to see things as a broad picture. If you show your work to people and it has a certain image and a line that don't really work well together and they tell you they don't get it, or it's not working (and they actually give you a reason for it-which I did see some good feedback) then either take it or move on. The goal is to not get your (not you personally) hackles up and pretty much say that the people who are giving you feedback you don't like are stupid. This was my main issue.
A pat on the pack never hurts, but that's not what I was saying at all, nor was I talking about Not taking criticism.
I didn't mean you specifically. Whoops! (I really should have sectioned that off better. I should stop drinking and getting on the net :) ) I meant by "getting a pat on the back" and "glowing remarks" that you shouldn't post something and expect only wonderful, "you're so awesome" feedback. I read the feedback which for the most part was constructive until the word "stupid" was thrown out there and a brawl ensued. It was more of a general observation for what was going on (within a fit of rage). So I'm sorry if you thought I meant you specifically. Please accept this as a token of respect.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/teniworks/magical_smile.jpg

So I agree, let's get back to the task at hand. Let's see the final design.

[Danger_Mouse]

All is good.:D