Advice on a logo design.

[G Designz]

I am working on this logo design for a client. His restaurant business is called Phileas Fogg's and he wants it to feature a hot air balloon and the font in script. He wants it look classic. Now I have done the logos for him but he didn't like any. He wants the balloon to look more real rather than computer created. He says that maybe an actual picture would work but I'm not sure if it's good to use actual pictures in logos? What you think?

How can I make the balloon look more more real and the logo more classic? Do the fonts look classic?

This is what I showed him. Please don't critique these logos as he already made a decision that he wasn't feeling any of these so I am looking for help. I need advice on how to make the balloon more real and logo more classy.
Thanks!
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5953/phileasfoggsdraftsjm5.jpg

[CkretAjint]

Not gonna sugar coat this at all...

Over all: In order to make it look more 'real' add highlights and shadows to the balloon and shrink down the basket a LOT! Also when shrinking down ANY of these you will loose alot in the print, keep that in mind. Do any of these really work in black and white only?

Logo 1: You basket weeves need help. Text on the curves need lots of help. Not a fan of wither font, not fun or exciting.

Logo 2: Outlines around the text is ewww and doesnt help. Also when shrunk down you will loose themin printing. Why cover up the flag on top with the intials? Not hat is matters that flag is WAY to small even when printined 50% of that size...

Logo 3: Pretty much the same as the ones from above...


Did you do any sketches? Why not explore fun different angles of the hot air balloon?
http://www.balloonrideus.com/images/pioneerbal.jpg
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2067536/2/istockphoto_2067536_hot_air_balloon_bottom_view.jp g

[CkretAjint]

http://www.ozhorizons.com.au/vic/melb/global_ballooning/logo.gif
http://perso.orange.fr/jmlequime/eole71/IMAGES/logo.gif
http://secure.creatingkeepsakes.com/images/cku_sponsors/1781_logo.jpg
http://www.ashevillehotairballoons.com/images/Logo-Small.gif
http://www.ville.saint-jean-sur-richelieu.qc.ca/web/img/Logo-couleurInternational_2004111216742.jpg

[G Designz]

Yes I didn't like the blk outline around "fogg's". But without an ouline you wouldn't be able to see the word Fogg's very well on white. So yes I thought the same.

[CkretAjint]

so? Don't use yellow...

Besides if you cut it down to 2 colors you can use a PMS (PMS 199 U?) and Black (PMS Black U?) and do 2 color print runs. Your client will thank you in the long run and other designs will love you when they use your logo on other collateral materials down the road!!!

[G Designz]

He asked it to be in red and yellow.

[CkretAjint]

Perhaps you could look at some of McDonalds advertising and get some ideas on how to use it when need be...

Does he know that 3 colors will be more expensive to print? Did you discuss this with him?

[Typically]

well i know your client wants a script font but when i first saw the logos i thought it said "phileas faggs" the o looks a lot like an a.

photo's are a no no in logo design. logo's should print in 1 color and still be able to recognize what it is. try something simple and explain to your client that a photo will not work.

[graphicsmama]

Gotta agree with crket ....maybe if he really wants yellow, you could incorporate it into the balloon instead of the text.

[G Designz]

well i know your client wants a script font but when i first saw the logos i thought it said "phileas faggs" the o looks a lot like an a.

photo's are a no no in logo design. logo's should print in 1 color and still be able to recognize what it is. try something simple and explain to your client that a photo will not work.

Now that you mention it. It does look like it says "faggs?...lol...I will try other fonts. These are fonts he wants so I will search for different ones.

[WannaBrie]

I bet your client is thinking of a balloon like on the cover of the book for "around the world in 80 days", I had one many years ago that had a terrific illy of an old style hot air balloon. I googled for it, but all I found are the newer versions of book and movie, sorry.

[mojoprime]

i dunno. part of your role as designer is to coach and suggest, in addition to creating the designs. the middle font, brush script, is outdated and typically used these days a "throwback" font, to reference the 50s or retro or something along those lines. try to discourage that. Mistral, the one on the bottom, references the 80s and besides also being a throwback font is also damn hard to read. also, when you stroke mistral (and most other script fonts), you get character overlaps. since the font is supposed to -- in a way -- reflect handwriting, you would need to convert the type to outlines and then join the individual characters using the pathfinder in Illy. how it looks like you have it now is a little sloppy.

there must be 52 gazillion fonts in the world. do a little more research and maybe you can find something else he'd like.

i get a sort of p.t. barnum feel from the name. maybe something circus-like with the balloon would work. but yeah, like everyone said, red and black are your colors. use the yellow only as an accent.

[G Designz]

I bet your client is thinking of a balloon like on the cover of the book for "around the world in 80 days", I had one many years ago that had a terrific illy of an old style hot air balloon. I googled for it, but all I found are the newer versions of book and movie, sorry.

Yeah he was asking for an old hot air balloon. But I couldn't find any, just the newer ones.

[G Designz]

I bet your client is thinking of a balloon like on the cover of the book for "around the world in 80 days", I had one many years ago that had a terrific illy of an old style hot air balloon. I googled for it, but all I found are the newer versions of book and movie, sorry.

Yes he is. I just got a email of him telling me that.

[Seapony]

Yeah he was asking for an old hot air balloon. But I couldn't find any, just the newer ones.
If you don't mind my saying so, it doesn't look as though you looked at any pictures of hot air balloons as a reference, whether new or vintage. Considering the availability of such images, I have to wonder if you even looked at all rather than draw it from your head. Here for example is the anatomy of a hot air balloon that I quickly googled.

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2003/hetherington/final/images/hot-air-balloon-diagram.gif

If the over stylized look you presented was intentional then let me just say that was probably a poor concept choice. I imagine that could be one big reason why the client wasn't happy with it.

I don't know what your process is, but I have to question it because by all appearances, you've skipped over a few rungs on the design ladder. I recommend you turn off your computer and research first. There are so many resources on hot air balloons (including vintage (http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&q=old+hot+air+balloon&btnG=Search+Images) which I googled in two seconds) both in book stores and online that it's ridiculous. Nail down the look of your balloon on paper with pencil first. When you finally render it digitally, work only in black and white (not greyscale). If it doesnt' look good in black and white as small as 1-1.5" wide, chances are it won't look much better in the color, either. And remember, invoices, fax transmittal sheets and the like will require the use of one solid color, so work in black and white first.

Once you've got the logo balloon's appearance pretty much set, time to look for a complimentary type face. Brush script is not "classic" or even positioned properly on the balloon. As already mentioned, there are so many scripts out there that it's ridiculous. Check out Veer, MyFonts or any number of font sites out there. Your research should also extend to searching for the right font to use for the logo. Don't make it too flourished as it will have to be legible from a small size. If it means you have to spring for it and include it in your itemized expenses, so be it.

Once the whole logo is pretty much complete in black and white, then start exploring the right color combinations. You already know what the client wants but does it have to be "mustard" yellow vs. a deeper yellow? Or "ketchup/catsup" red over a deep brick red? Time to really explore some winning hue combinations and sell your choices to the client.

Good Luck

:)

[G Designz]

If you don't mind my saying so, it doesn't look as though you looked at any pictures of hot air balloons as a reference, whether new or vintage. Considering the availability of such images, I have to wonder if you even looked at all rather than draw it from your head. Here for example is the anatomy of a hot air balloon that I quickly googled.

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2003/hetherington/final/images/hot-air-balloon-diagram.gif

If the over stylized look you presented was intentional then let me just say that was probably a poor concept choice. I imagine that could be one big reason why the client wasn't happy with it.

I don't know what your process is, but I have to question it because by all appearances, you've skipped over a few rungs on the design ladder. I recommend you turn off your computer and research first. There are so many resources on hot air balloons (including vintage (http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&q=old+hot+air+balloon&btnG=Search+Images) which I googled in two seconds) both in book stores and online that it's ridiculous. Nail down the look of your balloon on paper with pencil first. When you finally render it digitally, work only in black and white (not greyscale). If it doesnt' look good in black and white as small as 1-1.5" wide, chances are it won't look much better in the color, either. And remember, invoices, fax transmittal sheets and the like will require the use of one solid color, so work in black and white first.

Once you've got the logo balloon's appearance pretty much set, time to look for a complimentary type face. Brush script is not "classic" or even positioned properly on the balloon. As already mentioned, there are so many scripts out there that it's ridiculous. Check out Veer, MyFonts or any number of font sites out there. Your research should also extend to searching for the right font to use for the logo. Don't make it too flourished as it will have to be legible from a small size. If it means you have to spring for it and include it in your itemized expenses, so be it.

Once the whole logo is pretty much complete in black and white, then start exploring the right color combinations. You already know what the client wants but does it have to be "mustard" yellow vs. a deeper yellow? Or "ketchup/catsup" red over a deep brick red? Time to really explore some winning hue combinations and sell your choices to the client.

Good Luck

:)
Lol. That exact same picture you just uploaded is what I used to create the hot air balloon. I just didn't create the basket part and of course I added color.

But thanks for the tip

[Mynock]

That "o" looks like an "a" and that's bad.

[Red Kittie Kat]

found this


http://www.dvdclassicscorner.net/80days.jpg

[icekitty37]

All of the text in those logos is really hard to read- and will only get worse once smaller. Don't use a cursive font!

[Seapony]

Lol. That exact same picture you just uploaded is what I used to create the hot air balloon. I just didn't create the basket part and of course I added color.

But thanks for the tip

Then you can see where you went wrong because comparing the two side by side, it certainly doesn't look as though you used it as a reference.

:)

[Seapony]

found this


http://www.dvdclassicscorner.net/80days.jpg

One of my favorite movie posters...well, this one looks like the DVD actually, but you get the idea.

;)

[G Designz]

Ok here is a balloon draft I just made. Let me know what you think. I think it looks much better. Don't worry about the color right now.

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/9681/balloondraftoe6.jpg

[PrintDriver]

Pick a light source.

[CkretAjint]

Looks good, but where the text going to go on it? Basket could use some more work as well....

[Red Kittie Kat]

maybe I am being too picky .. but it looks just a little too pointy on top and the shadow on the front panel gives the look of being pushed in vs puffing out ... but overall looks much better ;) You are on the right track

[G Designz]

The gradient can be fixed later after I have the right balloon design. Because it took me a while to create this design so I am not worried about where the light source is coming from yet.

CkretAjint: Like what? Like adding gradiant or some designs inside the box?

Here is the blow up version so you can see it better.
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/6951/balloondraftfd0.jpg

[CkretAjint]

I dont know the basket just seems *there* nothing special about it. I cant explain it but I like the balloon am all smiles " (c: " ... but then I see the basket and get all " /c: " about it.

[G Designz]

Lol. Ok I see what you mean. Yes it does look dull.

My client says he wants the top to look more rounded like this remax balloon. What do you think? I think it looks fine the way I have it. I mean I can fix a little bit but not too much.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4819/remaxballoonxs5.jpg
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4819/remaxballoonxs5.jpg)

[cornfed]

I think it looks like it's bulging on the top in an awkward way. You need to fix it.

[CkretAjint]

Do what the client wants.... You have to this point even if it has been wrongs. hehe :)

[frankster]

I have to admit that this thread has got me rather bemused. If you are going for the Phineas Fogg, 80 days around the world feel then you need to stop basing things on modern balloon shapes and look back at those around the dawn of ballooning, or at least the 1800s. They are usually more rounded and either have netting over the entire balloon, or ropes coming from the circumference of the balloon. They are also more decorative, but it's the shape that's the obvious difference.

Then you say this is a logo, so all the usual logo advice applies, simple, able to be scaled down small and still readable, no gradients, work in black and white first etc... Your client obviously doesn't want a cartoon balloon, but you can still abide by all the funamental important points of effective logo design without sacrificing the "real balloon" look.

This is the shape I mean...

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3108030.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=45BAE66225B176A1CED2A629524DE390A55A1E4F32AD3138

http://www.darkhorizons.com/2004/world/world8.jpg

[Seapony]

The gradient can be fixed later after I have the right balloon design. Because it took me a while to create this design so I am not worried about where the light source is coming from yet.

CkretAjint: Like what? Like adding gradiant or some designs inside the box?

Here is the blow up version so you can see it better.
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/6951/balloondraftfd0.jpg

Turn off the computer and slowly back away from the keyboard.

As I said earlier, sketch FIRST. The computer is really a tool for you to digitally render a nearly completed concept and you aren't there yet. You haven't even decided on a period style for the balloon. "REMAX"..."Around the World in 80 Days"... Finalize the overall look of your balloon on paper first and then digitally render it, otherwise you'll go nuts either trying to fix a failing illustration or re-doing the thing over and over.

:)

[Typically]

seapony i love your new avatar

[leelovesbikestoo]

what frankster said.

turn-of-the-century balooning was adventurous; dangerous and exciting - not the exact science it is today! when i look at the '80 days' cover it throws me back to chitty chitty bang bang and the orient express.

i would use the french balloon image above as inspiration - it has the good ballon shape, ok lettering, excellent repetitive patterns and good colour about it. that should get the ideas going!

[Logoshed]

I think you should be working on a woodcut or litho style here. All the suggestions for using an old style balloon are spot on. Phileas Fogg conjures up images of old England, not modern balloons.

http://www.atasteofkentucky.com/shop/images/product/kyawnbw09.gif

http://www.airtoairafrica.co.za/images/hisbal.jpg

[leelovesbikestoo]

logoshed, i love that second engraving!

but i think a woodcut font would remind me too much of pioneer america-era... maybe look at a serif face (times?) remiscent of old britannia?

[Logoshed]

Ace isn't it! Maybe a font like Copperplate would be nice, but rough it up slightly.

Maybe I'm getting carried away now.

[mojoprime]

nope, i don't think you guys are getting carried away.

look, here's the deal, and don't take it the wrong way, but you've got some work to do. theoretically, the *balloon* part might be ok, but the canopy section where the anchor ropes connect to the basket, your proportions and angles are wrong. you've got a bulge in your curve on th left side asnd though i can see you're trying to incorporate some type of prespective into the canopy section (the part just above the rope anchors, before you get to the base of the balloon itself), your curve is good on the left side but on the right, it's too flat. you need to make it rounder and more congruent to the other side, so it balances and looks more like a curve.

remember, you're going through all of the trouble to give it depth, so you need to correct your lines so it looks like how a balloon (or any object with curves) looks.

look at the basket. on the left side, again, you have a slightly curved line leading to a somewhat harsh archnor point on the bottom left corner of the basket. it makes the bottom of the basket look droopy rather than like a balloon's basket. and then, on the right side, again there's no congruency to the left side. and, the baskets are square. you've got a round balloon with some depth and perpsective going on, but then a flat basket with no depth or prespective shading.

this is why it's good sometimes to sketch things out. or, you could print this one, doctor it up by hand, and then scan it back in and correct it on the machine. either way, you've got some more work to do.

but remember, before you spend hours adding it hatch lines or something, this is a logo. it need to be legibile at business-card size. whatever you do, make sure it works at about an inch to an inch and half tall.

[leelovesbikestoo]

i'd give the balloon some movement, energy, like the '80 days' cover - that would make the logo animated in the eyes of the viewer. try rotating the balloon image by a few degrees to the right.

[Seapony]

seapony i love your new avatar

Thankye kindly. It's my evil eye of design...patent pending. ;) Here's the whole pic. Doesn't register well small.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Earchetypeds/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/seaponyhallowseve.gif

[G Designz]

i'd give the balloon some movement, energy, like the '80 days' cover - that would make the logo animated in the eyes of the viewer. try rotating the balloon image by a few degrees to the right.

The client wants it right side up. No rotating...

[G Designz]

nope, i don't think you guys are getting carried away.

look, here's the deal, and don't take it the wrong way, but you've got some work to do. theoretically, the *balloon* part might be ok, but the canopy section where the anchor ropes connect to the basket, your proportions and angles are wrong. you've got a bulge in your curve on th left side asnd though i can see you're trying to incorporate some type of prespective into the canopy section (the part just above the rope anchors, before you get to the base of the balloon itself), your curve is good on the left side but on the right, it's too flat. you need to make it rounder and more congruent to the other side, so it balances and looks more like a curve.

remember, you're going through all of the trouble to give it depth, so you need to correct your lines so it looks like how a balloon (or any object with curves) looks.

look at the basket. on the left side, again, you have a slightly curved line leading to a somewhat harsh archnor point on the bottom left corner of the basket. it makes the bottom of the basket look droopy rather than like a balloon's basket. and then, on the right side, again there's no congruency to the left side. and, the baskets are square. you've got a round balloon with some depth and perpsective going on, but then a flat basket with no depth or prespective shading.

this is why it's good sometimes to sketch things out. or, you could print this one, doctor it up by hand, and then scan it back in and correct it on the machine. either way, you've got some more work to do.

but remember, before you spend hours adding it hatch lines or something, this is a logo. it need to be legibile at business-card size. whatever you do, make sure it works at about an inch to an inch and half tall.

Ok. About the business card - you mean start design this at that size? 1 x 1.5? My client was concerned on how it would look on a business card.

[CkretAjint]

and as said before, just cause the client wants it doesn't make it right. Do a design their way and then do one your way to show them how cool it can be if they just open their mind and eyes a little bit.

[CkretAjint]

Yes, scale it down to 1 inch by 1.5 inches for a business card. Remember business card are only 3.5" x 2" so your logo has to be smaller then that.

[G Designz]

and as said before, just cause the client wants it doesn't make it right. Do a design their way and then do one your way to show them how cool it can be if they just open their mind and eyes a little bit.

Trust me.. I already did all of that...I did drafts where the balloon was rotated to left and so on......So what can I do...

[G Designz]

Here is my update...I fixed the basket and added the colors he wanted..

Let me know..I think it looks a lot better..

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s58/G_Designz/balloondraft.jpg

[Two-Toe Tom]

i think it's getting there. here are some suggestions: it looks like you have slightly different perspectives for the top of the balloon, the bottom of the balloon and the basket, the text could be better integrated onto the balloon (for example, if it was really writtin on the balloon, the letteres on the side would be a bit narrower and the bottom would flare out slightly), the white type on the black part is hard to read and probably not necessary, and the red and yellow sections on the balloon are not even.

hope that helps!

[CkretAjint]

ditch the white type, when you scale it down you will loose it on press.

side to side its not proportionate.

I think you are trying to put to much into the logo. SIMPILFY IT!!!!

[G Designz]

i think it's getting there. here are some suggestions: it looks like you have slightly different perspectives for the top of the balloon, the bottom of the balloon and the basket, the text could be better integrated onto the balloon (for example, if it was really writtin on the balloon, the letteres on the side would be a bit narrower and the bottom would flare out slightly), the white type on the black part is hard to read and probably not necessary, and the red and yellow sections on the balloon are not even.

hope that helps!
Thanks..The red and yellow are not even..how so? You mean cause the last stripe of each side are not the same color?

[CkretAjint]

left side has 4 humps, and right side has 5 humps from the center line...

[Seapony]

Here is my update...I fixed the basket and added the colors he wanted..

Let me know..I think it looks a lot better..

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s58/G_Designz/balloondraft.jpg

As I said earlier, I think you should set aside color for now. It's impeding progress at this stage where you should really be focusing on making the lines and reeeeally tiny type legible at any size.

Remember that this logo will be used in all sorts of collateral (faxes, invoices, affiliates links, watermarks to name a few "small" sizes other than just business card and stationery system, which is an outright given). Have you reduced it to 1-1.5" yet? It has to hold itself together at that size. I can bet that many finer elements will virtually disappear as it stands. I definitely know that the "Phileas Fogg" knockout at the base of the balloon (on the black above the basket) will be almost irrecognizable reduced. Moreover the finer stroke widths may not make it either, particularly if ink ends up bleeding in during printing (depends where you go and what they have).

When you finally work out the weights and look then re-introduce color. Don't get ahead of yourself or you could end up frustrated before you're done.

Regarding the type, I'm not really feeling it. The placement looks a little unnatural and the vibe is not really in keeping with the style you're aiming towards. But as I said first things first—nail the balloon's look first in black and white.

:)