My old job wants me back full time, but... [Archive]

Vectorized

10-13-2007, 02:58 PM

I quit my job about a month and a half ago to go out on my own. It's tough at first, of course, but now my employer wants me back. They did have someone there that took my place, but he didn't work out. They're kind of a strange bunch - it's a pretty small shop - 4 employees - so it takes a certain personality to get along with them all and be able to get the job done. It's a print shop, and for those of you who are familiar, it's a horse of a different color. I have many many years of experience in print and prepress, and it's very difficult to find someone that knows their stuff on that subject. I mean REALLY knows their stuff. Here's my dilemma: I'm strongly considering going back, but on MY terms. I asked for a certain amount of money to return, and they countered with a dollar less an hour. I don't feel that I should make that concession. I feel that what I'm asking for is quite fair, considering I not only do the graphics, but also troubleshoot all the computers, upgrade hardware/software, and take care of the platemaker. I've checked around with other companies of similar size in this same city, and there's quite a range of salary. I feel that I should be at the upper part of that food chain, since I have over 20 years of experience, I was with the company for almost 8 years (and was a very loyal and dependable employee), and I'm also their tech support! Oh, and I quit because I asked for a raise back in May after 8 years with just cost of living increases, and they turned me down saying they "couldn't afford it" which is bull. I see the numbers.That and some bullshit that was going on around there in the front office. I was getting WAYYYYYY too many interruptions (unnecessary ones) and a production manager that micromanages. It was really getting to me.

That's that. Anyone have feedback? I don't think I should accept less than what I REALLY want to make there full time, and I really want to make my own way with my home business, but it's a little scary trying to get the clients and seeing the bank account dwindling (not quickly, but it's going).

HELP!:eek:

PrintDriver

10-13-2007, 05:03 PM

If they are willing to stiff you by one dollar (or only $2k in a whole year), who's to say they aren't going to stiff you the whole time you are back there? And has the front office politics changed at all?

Vectorized

10-13-2007, 05:39 PM

I'm not sure what they could do to stiff me if I come back, but if I go back on THEIR terms, accepting what they're offering, I think that makes me look like I'm desperate for the job back and they may feel they can continue on with just the way things have always been. They promised things would change as far as interruptions and micromanaging goes, but that has yet to be seen. I've been working back their part time the last 2 weeks, and there have been SOME improvements, but now they feel they'd really rather have someone there full time, so they offered me the job first. Now, she also made sure she told me about some "other guy" that's been bugging her to give him a shot at the job. She confessed she told him he could come in Monday and see how things go, but she said she'd rather be able to call him over the weekend and cancel if I agree to come back. These people are comfort people - meaning they'd much rather retain the team we have than try to find a replacement. As you know, sometimes it's hard to find a good prepress person, and us artists can be tempermental, you know. LOL! She admitted to me at one point that she'd rather pay more money to keep someone that's good at their job than to pay someone a lower salary and have to worry about things getting done on time and correctly.

So anyway - I don't know about the office politics... but she would like a response by this afternoon. I'm drafting a reply to her email to me, which she included the line "I really want you to come back with your heart and not just because of your financial liabilities". How do I respond to that? Whatcha think?

urstwile

10-13-2007, 05:42 PM

Hmm, the way you're describing it, it sounds like a wrong move for you to make. I understand your financial concerns, but it doesn't really sound like they're willing to match your expectations, both financially and office politics wise.

jimking

10-13-2007, 05:54 PM

That dollar less, how does that amount square with the raise you ask for before leaving?

Vectorized

10-13-2007, 05:54 PM

Yeah. I was kinda thinking the same thing, urstwhile, but it sure is nice to have a paycheck, as long as it's what you feel you deserve, pays your bills, and you can be happy at your job. Most everything else is quite tolerable, and actually fun, but the micromanaging just burns my a$$. I was going to see if they would meet me halfway and pay me .50 more instead of the dollar more - I can accept that, providing things change at least a bit. I know Rome wasn't built in a day. It's a tough decision, really, since I'd like to build up my home business, but it's a pretty daunting task and a little scary (especiallly since I have a house, and no room for a roommate or something if things get that tough). I can always seek out a part time job doing graphics somewhere else, I suppose. That's an option as well. It does sound, though, like they do want me back, so I feel that I'm holding the cards and should be able to play a bargaining chip.

Vectorized

10-13-2007, 05:56 PM

jimking - what they offered me was what I asked for before deciding to quit, so I'm sure that's why they're offering that amount. What I ASKED for was a dollar an hour MORE than that offer. A "that was then, this is now" kinda thing. I mean, I'm sure it's acceptable to have reconsidered over the last 6 months since the original request was on the table, to decide that a bit higher rate of pay is in order. Technically, what I'm willing to settle for is only .50 more an hour than they counteroffered me. Now, I could accept that, I suppose, but I think it's more a matter of principal at this point. I just don't feel I should "settle". If they say no and decide to give the other guy a shot, well, then that's just the way it goes. I'll continue on with my plan A! It's a bit hard to get used to NOT having the regular paycheck!

John G

10-13-2007, 06:31 PM

They want you. That means your terms, not theirs. For all they know, you have a great opportunity starting next week that pays twice as much as they want to give you.

Stick to your guns.

Vectorized

10-13-2007, 06:39 PM

So like, stick to the original dollar an hour more than what they (counter) offered? I was thinking so too, the more I thought about it. It just has to be WORTH taking the job back. I can still continue to build a client base, since there's no non-compete clause, there will just have to be a bit longer turnaround. I was considering the .50 compromise, but I want to be sure it's right move for ME, not for THEM. They may very well say they refuse to go that high and hire the other guy, but first of all, I don't think he'll work out (heard some background on him), and second of all, if they DO refuse to accept my terms, then it wasn't meant to be, I guess. (of course, that may be my own personal justification - LOL) I'm just tired of takin what they're givin cuz I'm workin for a livin, ya know? I'd like to be paid what I feel I'm worth.

urstwile

10-13-2007, 06:57 PM

^^sounds like you sorted out the answer to your question yourself, Vectorized. :)

Seriously, if another person had posted what you'd said, I think you'd take that as good advice. Go with your instincts on this one.

budafist

10-13-2007, 11:01 PM

It sounds like they need you more than you need them so I would stick to the amount you asked for.

Vectorized

10-13-2007, 11:33 PM

Ya, budafist, I tend to agree with you. I HATE having to feel like I have to compromise, and I'm not in a position of desperation at this point (and hopefully won't be! LOL!), so I think I should stick to my guns. I mean, taking .50 less an hour isn't THAT much, but it's still compromising, and I don't feel that I need to or should have to. I do appreciate all your input!

Now, they'll want me to "train" the new guy - what do you think that cost should be? Should it be my hourly rate or should I cut them some slack? I really don't wish to burn my bridges with this company, and they've never really done me wrong - they've just been cheapskates when it comes to raises...

budafist

10-14-2007, 01:20 AM

I guess it's up to you how much you want to charge for training. Personally, I don't think it should be discounted. Why should you cut them some slack for hiring someone else?

Have you worked out how many hours per day you will be training the new person and for how long?

Vectorized

10-14-2007, 01:36 AM

Oh shoot. I don't know... it hasn't even happened yet. I'm just looking ahead at the whole thing so I'm prepared in case they DO ask me to do that. I feel that someone in training should be left on their own for a certain number of hours a day to get more of a feel for the job... they may very well accept what I'm requesting for pay, and we won't even go there!

meadowyck

10-14-2007, 03:05 PM

Vectorized:

Stick to your guns, hold out for your originial amount. They are just being as you stated cheapscapes. You said it would take this amount for you to come back stick to that. Don't waste your time going back and forth over .50. It isn't worth that. They either pay you what you asked or you don't go back PERIOD.......

You have tremendous worth with your print background combined with your GD.

Suggestion if once you tell them you won't come back for less than what you originally told them and they come back with asking you to train, charge an HOURLY rate for the time spent training him.

Then after you train him and should he not blend with the other personalities and they come calling asking you back again, raise your return price by another 1.00 an hour.

This in my opinion (which is like something else we all have, lol) shows that your skills and blending are most certainly worth the pay.

I've done hiring and firing for more than 20 years and I don't like it when someone is worried about standing up asking for what they are worth. I do understand that sometimes a company really can't afford to pay the amount and that is fine but then when the companies that have the money get greedy and not take care of employees, that just burns me.....

Good luck with your decision with the job. Believe more in yourself and your skills as they must be good or why else would you company be coming back to you.

jimking

10-14-2007, 03:25 PM

jlknauff

10-14-2007, 04:43 PM

Stick to your guns - especially after her condescending "come back with your heart, not because of financial liabilities" line. Sounds like she assumes that if you're not working there, you're on the street eating cold beans from a can. As for training someone else, that would fall under consulting. Most consultants I know charge between $75-$300/hr depending on the industry, so determine what is industry standard.

On the other side of things, do you have a portfolio? PM me with your info. We're always looking for skilled, reliable freelance designers.

Vectorized

10-14-2007, 06:27 PM

meadowyck - I agree! THEY asked ME back - not the other way 'round, therefore, I hold the cards. The amount they offered me is 1.00 less an hour than I asked for the first time I asked for a raise back in May. As you said - a buck an hour more to come back. That's what I asked for was one dollar more an hour than that amount. It's not even that much more in my pocket after taxes, technically, but that's just the amount I want to make it worth it for me to return. Actually, after speaking with others in my area that know me and my abilities, they all think I could make on my own just fine and make at least 2x the amount I'd be getting paid there full time. Guess they have more confidence in me than I do! What they were paying me for the last 2 weeks on a part time basis was precisely what I'm asking for to come back! I can't BELIEVE she dropped that by a dollar! And yeah, the "heart" thing was really unprofessional, if you ask me. This is BUSINESS, not FAMILY. I had worked with everyone there for so long, and it's such a small shop that we were are pretty close, but we never "hung out" after work or anything. She acts like I should be GLAD that I'd be allowed back since I miss them all so much and I should work for $5 an hour because my "heart" is in it. NOT. I don't know about you all, but I work to pay my bills. I happen to be in a field that I LOVE and can't imagine doing anything else (except maybe tattooing), so I have half the population beat by actually enjoying what I do.

Yep. I'm stickin to my guns. I'm not even asking an unfair salary is what gets me.

CkretAjint

10-14-2007, 08:40 PM

Sounds like your job description is changing by the minute there.... Make sure your job decription is on paper before you sign anything to come back. EVERYTHING in writting!!!

Vectorized

10-14-2007, 09:17 PM

Nope. Nothing to sign at this place. They're quite lax and laid back. They don't believe in that, even to protect themselves. It's a mom and pop shop... No non-compete, no job description, no nothing. My capacity there is graphic artist, but I just happen to know what I'm doing with troubleshooting and software/hardware for the Macs. Most everyone there is fairly computer illerate, unfortunately (or fortunately). I haven't even heard back from them yet at this point, after sending my last email turning down their 1 dollar less offer. Might be a blessing in disguise.

Calligirl

10-15-2007, 06:12 PM

My question is, now that you have been out there on your own, how long could you work for them (for whatever the amount is) before you felt resentment and frustration setting in again.

I have my own rule that I never go back to a situation I've been in before, be it relationships or jobs. Life't too short to repeat the same mistakes, go make new ones. If you're working for yourself, at least you know who to point the finger at!

Good luck...

Vectorized

10-15-2007, 10:15 PM

LOL! True, Calligirl! It wasn't a HORRIBLE situation. A lot of it were just things I chose not to accept. They weren't really big things, and could have been tolerated. I really can't say it was a mistake to work there. I was there for almost 8 years, after all. Just too much micromanaging. Anywhere you work FOR someone, I think you'll find at least a LITTLE bit of office politics. I've only been out there for about a month. After 3 weeks, they fired my replacement and asked me to come back, which I had agreed to part time and see how that went. They decided they really wanted a full time on board graphic artist, so offered me the old job back. I wasn't willing to take it back on THEIR terms. It needed to be MINE. Far as I can tell, they've done that, since I'm sittin here at my old desk today! LOL! Still need to go over some things with the owner. Kinda awkward this a.m. though... she had called the new guy and told him not to come in, but he never got the message. I just walked back out when I saw someone new there, and then got called back about 20 min later after the owner came in and saw what happened. She felt so awful that she had to tell the poor guy he didn't have a job. She really shouldn't have even told him to come in at all until after she talked to me and we made a decision on whether I was coming back! Would have avoided what she had to do this morning! He was really upset. :(

CkretAjint

10-15-2007, 10:18 PM

He was really upset. :(

Poor guy! I have been there before. Of course after the fact I felt like a moron for it, but I think we have all been there. The fear of the uncertain/unknown can be quite powerful!!!

budafist

10-15-2007, 10:23 PM

That's terrible! I don't know what I'd do if I thought I'd got a job only to be sent home and fired when I'd sat in the desk for a bit.

Vectorized

10-15-2007, 10:30 PM

I know. I felt so bad for him. She really shouldn't have told him to come in though, if she was planning on talking to me first and seeing if I wanted the job back and THEN calling him to cancel. That's just CRUEL. Now I'm hoping that when we sit down and have a chat (now that I'm already here), that everything is going to go according to plan. If she tries to throw too many compromises at me, I'm walkin too, then she can call him back, I guess. I'm jumping the gun, though. I'm hoping things will work out fine. I'm just tired of compromising. I'm too old for that sh*t.

CkretAjint

10-15-2007, 10:34 PM

Best of luck Vectorized. When are you going to talk to her? It's 6:30 here already and I am home for the day.... hehe

Vectorized

10-15-2007, 11:58 PM

I don't know. She's VERY nonconfrontational, so prefers emails and/or notes (everyone has their quirks, I suppose). I don't know what she wants to discuss - hopefully it isn't about what she's going to pay me, since I've already established I won't take less, and now she knows I will not stay if my terms are not agreed to.

I'll keep you posted on the saga! LOL!

budafist

10-16-2007, 04:06 AM

I'm very non confrontational too. But I'm getting better. Or trying to.

I give myself a few more years working in prepress before I turn into a total bitch with no chance in returning back to my former self. :D

Vectorized

10-16-2007, 04:30 AM

Either that or you'll be an alcoholic. Or maybe a bitchy alcoholic! Let's go have a drink!

balou

10-16-2007, 04:52 AM

At the last job I worked for someone else I put in my two weeks notice, at the end of two weeks they hadn't found a replacement yet. At the end of the two weeks I offered to work for them as a freelancer (at 3 times the hourly pay I was making with them) until they found someone - working from home about half the time. I helped them with the hiring process and when a replacement was hired, I trained her in for a week of mornings and after that emails and phone call questions were charged by hour with a 15 minute minimum. For the training I charged 2 times my hourly pay. If you have it spelled out like this, written & signed, they may go for it. Who knows?

Vectorized

10-16-2007, 04:59 AM

Yup. That's what I was doing. I actually left the job on Sep 7. They had me do some freelance work (which, yes, was at about 3-4x my hourly pay there) because the replacement they hired was too slow. Then they fired him because he couldn't get along with everyone there. He kept "shushing" everyone. How funny! Anyway, they asked me to come back full time, which at the time (which was only a couple of weeks ago) I preferred to work part time so I could devote at least part of each day to promoting my home business, and then they decided they wanted someone FULL time, and so the saga began. Now they have another guy they're hiring (that seems QUITE overemotional, by the way, since he called the owner and told her how she ruined his life by sending him home) so we'll see how THAT works out. Hard to find good prepress people in this town. GAs are a dime a dozen, but not prepress.

balou

10-16-2007, 05:11 AM

Yeah. I think prepress is mostly learned on the job. Being they're such a small shop, unless they happen to find someone new in the area with the experience, it's unlikely someone is going to move from a larger company to a smaller one. They'll probably end up training a designer.

Vectorized

10-16-2007, 05:13 AM

Thing is, no one there can train anyone to do anything with graphics OR prepress. They're fairly computer illerate, which means I'll have to train. Hmmmmm... business opportunity.

balou

10-16-2007, 05:27 AM

There ya go. :)

budafist

10-16-2007, 05:41 AM

Yes, prepress is absolutely learned on the job. I think that is what makes us so valuable (once the training part is done). Also, every shop is very different. I bet it would take any of us a while to get the hang of things if we were to temp for each other. I reckon about 90% of what I know about prepress was learned in the first 12 months. Therefore, to learn the ropes and thus start to get bored you probably only need a year.

I realise my bosses really do want me - they gave me a pay raise when I got back from a 1 week holiday because they only then realised just how much work I did. But I think they also realise that my generation of workers just don't hang around for very long. I read that 20 somethings stay 2 years at each job on average.

I'm 23 and I've had 5 jobs since I got my first job at 15 (after school). I've been at this job just over 2 years now, I feel like I've slowed down (almost to a stop) in what I'm learning from this job. When you stop learning, it's hard to stay interested in a job. You are going through the motions and it becomes routine. Sure, there can be comfort in routine and if you are being paid enough, that can be very secure indeed.

I think people these days realise that there are better opportunities out there. With the web, we can browse at home very easily to see what is out there and what we else can do. Good for us, not so much for our employers. Also, we are lucky in this industry where we can freelance (fulltime or otherwise) to get by or to make some extra cash.

CkretAjint

10-16-2007, 10:52 AM

Buda, I am the same way. Just over 2 years at my job and the learning has come to a crawl. Everything is the same thing over and over and the challenge has been gone for quite some time now. I find myself to be bored out of my mine recently and pondering leaving my current job. I get so bored I make myself prepress cheap sheets (paper size converstion chart, measurement conversion charts, envelope converstion charts, coprorate color charts, resort color charts, employee phone charts.....)

I am so freaking bored, and my boss has no conception of time on projects. I got back from my 1 day of vacation to find her freaking out with "a HUGE moutain of work for me to do." I was done in an hour and a half with nothing else to do for the day. MAJOR BOO!!!

Danger_Mouse

10-16-2007, 11:55 AM

yup...glue those guns on. Don't budge an inch and illustrate to them everything you have posted as to why you can justify that pay increase.

Did you enjoy yourself there? I mean every place has its BS, and good that you have recognized some change already (Rome is never built in a day). Can you picture still being happy with your decision after, let's say 2 more years? I would not only discuss the pay increase at hand, but where's your growth in the future?

You mentioned you left your job to start on your own...I assume freelancing?
So your choice outside the salary talk, is wether you enjoy it enough to return full time or enjoy more the exciting ups and downs freelance race.

Good Luck!

Vectorized

10-16-2007, 02:25 PM

Yeah... I guess that was part of it too - that I was getting bored (after almost 8 years). It wasn't all just prepress, though - there were design jobs and such as well, so that kept things interesting. The office politics and micromanaging starting getting to me more and more, not to mention when I'd butt heads with the production manager, I'd get the "you know, you're not indispensible" routine. To which I'd reply "you wanna test that theory?". I know that's bitchy, but geez! They're finding out now that I'm not so dispensible. I'm sure they'll find someone eventually... but yeah, Danger Mouse - it started feeling like a WAY dead end job. Nowhere to go from where I was. I WAS getting bored and frustrated. So here I am anyway, back in the freelance world, and the limitation I have is whatever I put on it! It's exciting and daunting at the same time, but I know I can do this. She did not agree to my terms (after me working there for a full day), to which I told her I could not accept hers. She said she wanted to "keep it a level playing field" and that it "wouldn't be fair to the other employees if I made more than them". HUH???? I'm not even gonna go there. That's just an inane statement. The pressman makes more bank since he's a skilled tradesman and pressmen are sometimes hard to find, as well as good prepress tradespeople. I explained this to her, but she stuck to HER guns too, so it's over. I told her I wasn't trying to burn bridges, and she agreed and saw my point as well, and that was that. She said if they needed training, they'd call me, or if they had too much of a workload (of course, at MY rates - heh). Anyone need graphics or printing? ;)

budafist

10-16-2007, 11:35 PM