Can one design a site without the copy?

[beowolfe03]

So my clients need their websites designed, but they give me no copy to work with. Ever. This happens in 8 out of 10 website projects I'm given when clients state in contract that they will be providing new text for their site.

Obviously the copy is the most important part of a website and I've always been told that I'm supposed to design around text, but my bosses (who know nothing about design) and the clients (who don't either) just want me to make templates they can shove text into later---and then they give the text to me and it's two pages long and won't fit in the 3x2 inch box I alotted the description of "green argyle socks".
This means everything is thrown off and I have to go back and resize everything.

So at the moment, I'm waiting until I get the copy from the client. This makes them angry, of course, because the website is "taking too long." I'm new to this industry and I really don't what to tell them other than, "I'm just waiting for your copy, buddy..."

So how do I handle this? Do I go ahead and sacrifice good design and make a template (which is still a feat in in itself) or am I right in waiting? :confused:

[D-Frag]

lorem ipsum is your friend...

http://www.designerstoolbox.com/designresources/greek/

[Ovaltine]

Yes, but lorem ipsum will only help if you know approximately how much text there will be. If you expect 2 short sentences and you get a full page, lorem ipsum did you no good.

[beowolfe03]

I know, I use it a lot (designer's toolbox rocks!) but I don't have any idea what amount of text they're putting anywhere...They just say, "This area must be the news space." or "This is the foreign language section" (these are exact instructions I'm using) and I'm not even sure they know what's going to go in there.

[budafist]

Maybe you should write a list of requirements/specs for website design and a timeline so everyone is clear what gets done at what point.

Example, you might able to work out colour swatches and sets for the client to choose from at stage 1 but template design can't happen until after the client has supplied the copy.

[MD]

Just tell your client to get their shit together.

[beowolfe03]

But they're toooo busy running their company to worry about their copy! Things keep coming up! We're sorry, we'll have it to you next week!

My bosses don't know what a graphic designer needs and when they need it when they write the contracts and unfortunately, neither do I until I realize I don't have it.
God bless liberal arts colleges.

[Ovaltine]

When you come across something you need, write it down. The next project you have, hand them the list you've made of things you know you'll need. Add to the list as you find issues. The 1st job may not go smoothly, but jobs after should get progressively better. Hopefully......

[beowolfe03]

Yeah, I should probably start doing that. Although it feels a bit like redesigning the wheel when so many people already know the correct way to go about it. I guess that's why it's called learning.
(But it'd be so much faster if I could learn from watching someone else who was old-hat at this...)

[D-Frag]

Sounds like my old job, I was the art director for 2 off road rags, every single month it was the same BS, "Just do the design, we will get you copy later" Uh huh, suuuuure you will. Then they would give me copy that no way in hell would fit, then say "sorry, I guess just redesign it around what I gave you"

yeah, thanks *******s.

[budafist]

I had to design a 12 page brochure for one of our print brokers' clients. URGENT!!!! Need a proof designed and 1 copy printed in the next 2 hours. No, we don't have any copy or the images yet, can't you just use some fake text and some stock images? :eek:

All they could give me was the dimension, page numbers, a logo and a brochure title. What really annoyed me was the fact that it the proof urgent.

Then they wait a month before sending through anything and then it's urgent again.

How about you tell me when you plan on getting it printed and I'll have a proof to you a few days before then.

The job ended up taking 4 months before it was printed. Urgent my ass.

The job ended up taking over 30 hours. If they had given me all the text and all the images before asking me to start, I could have knocked out in under 3 hours. Oh well, they pay by the hour.

[beowolfe03]

Sounds like my old job, I was the art director for 2 off road rags, every single month it was the same BS, "Just do the design, we will get you copy later" Uh huh, suuuuure you will. Then they would give me copy that no way in hell would fit, then say "sorry, I guess just redesign it around what I gave you"

yeah, thanks *******s.
That's about right. I'm the in-house designer at a "Tech solutions" company that decided one day that along with all their other services, it'd be cool to also offer web design and corporate ID design. Being the isolated creative in this place, sometimes it feels like I'm talking to the wall when I try to talk to them about what I need in order to do my job properly.

[CurtisS]

Geez. I guess that I am lucky in that I know the my employer's products and services so well that I can write the copy and take the images use in their brochures.
Something to be said for being an in-house designer I guess even if the subject matter gets boring.

My suggestion would be to keep the site layouts as simple as possible using a horizontal top banner and 2-3 vertical columns with height:auto. Boring? Yes but workable for many situations.

[beowolfe03]

You are lucky. I don't even know what the website is about half the time until at least the middle of the project. They refuse to fill out my survey questions and I never get to meet with them, so it's a little difficult.

Well, I can do the simple design, but someone else sets heights to auto. I'm one of the un/lucky ones who just designs websites and then ships them over to the programmer who makes it functional. I really have no idea what I'm doing. It's awesome.

[carter the artist]

lol, oh wow. this brought up memories. I worked at a Sh**ty Marketing Service and they had me do some mock-ups for a direct mailer. I had like three days. so that monday she tells me, to design them and then Wednesday morning we would have copy and that she'd need it ready by later that morning to present to client. "you can just copy and paste it right?"

Wow did I not like that girl. She had 0 clue about my job. The thing was, I was turning in my two weeks notice that day so I didn't care so much. And the best part? After giving my two weeks they let me go that day with a two week paycheck ....

Great times.

[tZ]

Design without copy…

Without the copy who gives a damn,lol

Isn't the copy the important part?

Sounds like your client is a lazy piece of sh*t…

You could opt to hire a copywriter. Maybe that would motivate the client to come up with some copy. Better yet maybe they will allow you to then you wouldn't need to worry.

[JPnyc]

If you don't know at least the approximate volume of the copy, how can you possibly design for it? You won't know how many pages the site needs to be, you won't know the size of each section, etc.. The shorter answer is, no I don't think you can.

[beowolfe03]

That's...sort of what I was thinking.
But it looks like I don't have much of a choice. *sigh*
I guess I have to go through all the first design job crap before things get better, just like everyone else.
And it could be worse. I could be flipping burgers, I guess. Or selling things. Or *shudder* designing airplane manuals.

[kevincdg]

heh, i think every designer runs into this at one point or another. it's an awful situation, and the design usually suffers poorly because of it. but, it's bound to happen. the only thing you can really do it explain it to them or make it stated in your contract.

personally, what i've done before with clients who i figured might be like this, is start the design work and deadlines from the day they get me the copy. i won't show them anything before i get copy, unless it's a couple color schemes to choose from -- but not layout design or anything until the copy is in my hands, then the timeline starts.

you probably won't bill as many hours as putting up with them the whole time, but it usually presses them to get the copy to you, and it gives you free time to work on something else without worrying about them.

[chalsema]

personally, what i've done before with clients who i figured might be like this, is start the design work and deadlines from the day they get me the copy. i won't show them anything before i get copy, unless it's a couple color schemes to choose from -- but not layout design or anything until the copy is in my hands, then the timeline starts.
This is how we do it too. We have a packet of pre-project worksheets where we find out goals, preferences, etc. Then after we complete and check off all of the pages there is a section where they sign off that we can not continue until we've received all necessary copy, images, logos, etc.

[beowolfe03]

Well, that sounds like a pretty good way to go about things. I'll tell this to the head of sales and hopefully we can get something like this enforced soon. I'm sure it will help immensely.

Thanks again, everyone, for all your help and words of wisdom---you don't know how encouraging it is! It gets pretty frustrating as the only creative in a company full of techies, so this forum is probably the best thing I could ask for.
And hey, if you have any more suggestions, keep 'em coming! :D