We need a strike

[Cahenz]

Everyone is probably well aware of the writer's strike that's going on right now. As a fellow creative professional, we can all relate to the concept of someone else making profits off our hard work and creativity. It got me thinking.

I realize it's all relative, but if you're writing for television or movies, then chances are you're making a decent amount of cash - enough to take time off to strike. It's probably because those folks have a union.

I've been a professional designer and illustrator for almost 14 years, and it's frigg'n frustrating. In the design field, it's really REALLY tough (at least here in Georgia) to make a living that reflects your talent and years in the industry. I've been constantly victimized by the corporate world, along with many of my brothers and sisters in the art world.

Personally, I'm sick of it. I'm fed up with cheapskate clients who can purchase custom artwork for next to nothing. I'm infuriated with art schools that gladly take their students' money without arming them with the knowledge they really need. I'm nausiated at the idea of having to abandon my chosen field and area of expertise so I can make a fair salary.

I would like to blame a cruel, unimaginitive and unforgiving world, but the people I'm really annoyed with are my fellow artists. We're not standing up for ourselves or for our art community as a whole. We act like getting an assignment is compensation enough, and we gladly underbid other hard working artisans so some parasite can get his or her art at bargain prices.

This is more of a long winded diatribe than I originally intended. But take my word for it...if you're a graphic professional just setting out into the big scary career world, check back with me in a decade and let's compare notes. I hope you're youthful enthusiasm stays in tact as you smash headlong into a glass ceiling.

[budafist]

Aside from a strike, what can we do?

If you are sick of cheap clients, up your prices and you will lose those clients that don't value design and illustration.

[PrintDriver]

I've been hearing 'organize' and 'union' and 'guild membership' and 'licensing' for as long as I've been in the business (over 15 years now). I just don't think it's in the artist/GD mentality to be that organized. And you would resent an outside force doing it for you. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. :D

Budafist's advice is good. You will never get rid of the hacks. Rise above them.

[Cahenz]

I've been hearing 'organize' and 'union' and 'guild membership' and 'licensing' for as long as I've been in the business (over 15 years now). I just don't think it's in the artist/GD mentality to be that organized. And you would resent an outside force doing it for you. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

You're right, which sort of confirms my original point that graphics people are our worst enemy. My number one gripe industry wide is that we allow cheapskates to take advantage of our talent. Personally, I'll loose an assignment over giving it away too cheap.

But you're right. We probably won't ever be unionized. It would be nice though if the art community could agree on a roundabout wage that we'll demand for ourselves. It would help all of us out.

Still, frustrations included, there's no other career I feel like I fit in. I'm an artist and that's that.

[Emptysix]

I'm an artist and that's that.

Therein lies the problem... for all of us. Many times I find myself taking a job that I shouldn't just because I have this problem letting someone else do it... especially if the project interests me. Now don't get me wrong I don't think I am a great graphic designer but where I live people try to pass anything off as design and somehow I convince myself that doing a particular project that pays much less than what it is worth is going to pay off... and it never does. I honestly wish there were some sort of union regardless of the unorganized nature of the artist we do tend too gravitate toward like minded people and other artists (look at the hundreds/thousands of communities online just like this one).

Someone stated in another thread that they were getting paid the wage of the fry cook at McDonald's or something similar... that's not right guys and I've been there... Hell I'm pretty much still there and it's definately a struggle being a graphic designer in rural areas.

[Cahenz]

Someone stated in another thread that they were getting paid the wage of the fry cook at McDonald's or something similar... that's not right guys and I've been there... Hell I'm pretty much still there and it's definately a struggle being a graphic designer in rural areas.

I feel your pain. I started my career in Savannah, GA. Ironic that a place that produces so many graphic designers is also the WORST place to BE one. All this goes back to my main thesis that the problem lies within our own ranks. The overall worth of our talents has been lowered to the point that we can't even afford the expensive equipment required to do our frigg'n jobs! I'm sick of it.

The horrible state of the industry has meant that even the most talented of artists cap out around $45k a year, and that's if we're doing well. Countless dollars spend on education and software, not to meantion a lifetime spent developing my craft hasn't resulted in a lot of pay off. And who's to thank for our plight?

It's our own friggn' people! The kids coming out of school, the hobbyists and the untalented. Plus any jagoff with access to photoshop and illustrator now consider themselves a designer. Well F*** that. Now I'm all angry. I'm leaning less towards strike and more towards bloody revolution.

Neither will probably happen, but unless we start acting like a community and start taking our own financial welfare seriously, nothing will ever change.

[Cahenz]

Aside from a strike, what can we do?

If you are sick of cheap clients, up your prices and you will lose those clients that don't value design and illustration.

You're right, and that's what I do on a daily basis. My concern (and in my opinion the reality of the business) is that our industry is being devoured from underneath us. It forces all of us talented folks to lower our prices just to keep working. You can demand $500 for a logo all you want...you're probably not going to get it.

And if you do, then good for you! You deserve it for your hard work and creativity and so do I. If everyone digs their heels in and demands an ethical wage, then we'll get it and the cheapskates out there will eventually learn they can't get cheap work.

I know it's idealistic, but hey I'm an artist. We're idealistic.

[Emptysix]

I mean I suppose it is a tradeoff for some of us... I chose to stay where I am... and thus far I am scratching 25k a year... with 5+ years of experience under my belt... and I'd dare say that in my area for at least a 60 mile radius I'm the best anyone is going to find and I'm not trying to be cocky but the crap I see some companies around here pass off as marketing, a logo, these companies are completely selling themselves short by cutting costs on branding and that is why I've done things for next to nothing... because I want someone to catch on and see what good design can do but thus far people just haven't caught on and those that get that good design helps use it so sparingly that it doesn't make a difference. Makes me frustrated!

[Cahenz]

... and thus far I am scratching 25k a year... with 5+ years of experience under my belt... and I'd dare say that in my area for at least a 60 mile radius I'm the best anyone is going to find...

Wow. No offense my friend, but F*** That!

[Emptysix]

Oh I agree... I keep writing it off that it's because either A: I am only 23 years old or B: I didn't go to college... but I'm currently trying to start marketing myself better (had a steady job with good benefits for most of those 5 years and quit due to BS much similar to what we are talking about) and I am now working a job that pretty much just sustains me until I can find something worthwhile.

[PrintDriver]

Like I said, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Especially if you are knowingly contributing to the problem.

Leave the cheap chumps with the hacks. If you are the best, work with the best, leave the others in the dust. Why, if you are good do you stay at $25k per year with 5 years. Step back, take a wage-paying job while freelancing part time and build your clientele. Build marketing programs for them that will outstrip their competition in sales. Don't put yourself in a situation where you have to sell out to eat.
Easy for me to say, I suppose.

[Cahenz]

Oh I agree... I keep writing it off that it's because either A: I am only 23 years old or B: I didn't go to college...

Ah, the pieces come together. As hard as it is being a working artist, it's REALLY tough if you don't have a degree. It's expensive to go to a good school and the payoff isn't guaranteed. If you've got the heart, you can do okay. I would recommend doing whatever it takes to get that degree though, otherwise you'll continue to see people breeze past you. Either way, good luck and stay strong.

[Emptysix]

When I say I didn't go to college I mean I went for a year and dropped out... and before anyone makes any assumptions... It was a good choice. At my last job I was in a position to hire a new graphic designer (yes I was getting screwed in a position of that much responsibility getting paid next to nothing) and two of the applicants went to the university that I attended for that year... their portfolios were pretty much the exact same stuff and neither were very good at all so I am very glad that I didn't go to a school that shows you how to use photoshop and lets you walk out with a cookie cutter portfolio.

I honestly think that sticking with the job I have and trying some freelancing is my best option, I know I can produce a very strong portfolio... if I do decide to get a degree it most likely won't be a Graphic Design degree and likely will be in Photojournalism or Marketing but that's neither here nor there.

Looks like I will have to convince my wife that staying close to home and family is actually hindering us because regardless of experience or education around here good design isn't worth it to anyone and topping out at 45k sounds like a blessing to me at the moment.

[Cahenz]

... went for a year and dropped out... and before anyone makes any assumptions... It was a good choice.

I totally respect what you're going through and your dedication to your craft. So please don't think I'm down on your talent or accomplishments. That said, if you're a designer with a diploma from a good school, it shows employers you have the dedication to your chosen career to put the effort into an education. Without that, I'm afraid your struggle in the graphic design industry isn't going to get one bit easier.

It's hard in this business if you DO have a degree. Every day that goes by is a day employers want us to know more while paying us less. If you don't have a degree it's like swimming in shark infested waters while dragging a chum bucket.

[Emptysix]

Suppose you may be right... may be time to stop dragging around what talent I have and get a degree to help with the heavy lifting :)

[Cahenz]

Suppose you may be right... may be time to stop dragging around what talent I have and get a degree to help with the heavy lifting :)

It's absolutely vital to your career. You're on the right path by going into marketing though...do that if you can. You'll make a LOT more than a designer. Of course you'll be one of those folks I call "the scumbags that give all the orders and have none of the talent" but you'll be driving a Lexus and probably be my boss. :D

[Emptysix]

Of course you'll be one of those folks I call "the scumbags that give all the orders and have none of the talent"

Nah, I don't think I could be one of those. I consider myself an artist and I would much rather work with a team of like minded artists than tell someone what I want and expect my vision to come back... if it hits anyone else's hands that means I want them to put their self into it as well. I know the guys yer talking about though... and if they are anything like my last boss they'll get what's coming to em. After I left his entire empire started to crumble (not my doing really but I like to take some credit) due to pissing off staff, trying to sell his company, and wasting company profits during a mid-life crisis and a divorce which drove the value of his business down and by the time the deal was about to go through it was worth 20% of the original selling price. Karma is a bitch.

[Cahenz]

...I would much rather work with a team of like minded artists...

That is one saving grace of where I work now. I really like my fellow artists here, for the most part. Sure there's the occasional a-hole prima donna who thinks they have a better pot to p*** in, but f*** them. They don't get invited to lunch.

[cjdevlin]

You pretty much accepted that you won't make a million a year when decided to become an artist. I joke with people that when I got my BA, that it came with a McDonald's application stapled to it.
We're all doing jobs that are famously at the bottom of the pay scale, but we're happy. If it's money you want, get your MBA, go to wall street and play the stocks.

[Emptysix]

I worked for a small Printing Company/Publisher and I really miss the team I worked with... I was pretty much the only graphic designer with a guy who did alot of video editing and was a pretty good flash designer, we got to collaborate on alot of stuff. And the other guy was a writer (editor of the paper I laid out, actually). We all got along really well and now that I am at this mindless ad design job I really miss that environment even though I was getting screwed by the Owner/Publisher. Maybe I should get together with those guys and start something new and quit this job lol

[Cahenz]

If it's money you want, get your MBA, go to wall street and play the stocks.

I agree that artists do what we do because we love what we do. We just shouldn't be victimized for it, and we could and should be doing a LOT better.

[Cahenz]

...Maybe I should get together with those guys and start something new and quit this job lol

I think it's a universal constant that we'll always hate our jobs just a tiny little bit, but there's no reason your job should make you miserable. I always have something to complain about, but believe me, I've had it WAAAAAYY worse.

[DonnaL]

... and thus far I am scratching 25k a year... with 5+ years of experience under my belt... and I'd dare say that in my area for at least a 60 mile radius I'm the best anyone is going to find...
Wow. No offense my friend, but F*** That!

I'm in the same boat!! And I have 12+ years under mine....... It bloody sucks!
You go to a big city where the bucks are but have to deal with competition.
Live in a small dinky town and work for peanuts with no competition.

Can't win........

[PrintDriver]

Are you all approaching your careers as Artists? Graphic Design is not Art. It is a business first with artistic talent second. That's not saying you don't need talent, but unless you treat your job as a business, you will forever be the starving 'artist'. If something isn't working out, no one can change that but you. If someone is feeding you crap wages, it's because you stay and let them. You may have to move. You will definitely have to compete. And you may find that strictly Design is just not what is going to float your financial boat. You can either drown, or go swimming. Explore your options.

[bigrich1]

Here, here PD! I agree completely with you. Business first, and that means Design first, and not art first...

We all, in some way, have the power to change our circumstances...

[Cahenz]

Are you all approaching your careers as Artists? Graphic Design is not Art. It is a business first with artistic talent second. That's not saying you don't need talent, but unless you treat your job as a business, you will forever be the starving 'artist'.

No offense, but that's sort of silly isn't it? How can an artist not approach their art as anything but art? That's our mindset and what why we majored in art or design.

And graphic design most certainly IS art. The arrangement of color, typography and images is art. Now I agree that you have to listen to what your client wants, and yes you do have to approach this as a business. No one is contesting that.

My issue is simply that we're not paid what we deserve and it's nearly impossible to demand what we deserve. I'm not talking an outrageous salary here either, just a comfortable wage and the opportunity to get promotions within the companies we work in. As a printer, you deliver a physical (and I'm sure quality) product, and most likely employ graphics specialists that make that happen.

Printers can only undercut their competition so much before their just loosing money. For some insane reason, graphic designers and illustrators feel compelled to give their talent and time away for almost nothing. So knock it off and we'll all be doing better.

[Danger_Mouse]

PD has it on the money...silly? no, reality yes.

GD is a service before art. As an artist you use your creative eye as an asset. As a designer you are limited by the client. That being said there are a lot of GD's that are not "artists" that are fantastic gd's.

If you have 12 yrs in the industry and still make 25k yr...the problem is both your company and you. You been left in the dirt my friend, you have become complacent or you lack the skill set. I make almost twice that after 12 years, and I am also an artist. I started at $7.50 hr and have climbed up ever since. I knew my direction and never became complacent...if I did it was time to move on. But I made a lot of changes in 12 years. I don't sit and wait for a company to reward me, I make the move myself.

25K after 12 years, I would have given up long ago.

[DC1]

Graphic Design is not Art. It is a business first with artistic talent second. That's not saying you don't need talent, but unless you treat your job as a business, you will forever be the starving 'artist'.
True enough. Most GDs don't need a union -- they need a competent sales associate and marketing plan.

You can have the artist thing or the money ...aside from a vanishing small percentage of lucky artists, you can't have both.

And there is another choice you have to make: Blowing off steam in uproductive infinite gripe threads or redirecting that energy into productive change. Stop doing the same thing over-and-over and expecting different results.

Is this the business issue section or the group therapy section?!

[Cahenz]

True enough. Most GDs don't need a union -- they need a competent sales associate and marketing plan.
It's true enough that sitting around moaning and crying won't change your situation. It's also true that anyone with any intelligence knows that when you become a working artist, you're in for a worthwhile struggle.

But a sales associate and marketing plan? The f*** are you talking about? If I could afford a decent marketing campaign and a sales associate, then scratching out a living as a graphic artist would be a laughable prospect. Has anyone noticed that this "graphic design isn't art" angle isn't coming from the graphic designers? I know plenty of GDs that will admit they can't draw that well, but I've NEVER heard one downplay their talent as something that isn't art worthy.

At the end of the day, you should find something to do career-wise that makes you happy and gives you a sense of fullfillment. If it doesn't move on and if you can fight the good fight and do something to elevate the state of our industry, then do that too.

[PrintDriver]

And thus goes the industry.

As long as you don't see your work as a service and a job but only as an artist's 'entitlement' to better compensation, meanwhile cutting your prices to lowball the next guy who is complaining about lowballers killing his business...
Good luck with that.

Sounds like you aren't describing a 'working artist' but a starving one.

If you can't come up with a decent marketing campaign for yourself then why are you in the design field where it is your job to come up with successful marketing campaigns. If you are not your own best sales associate, maybe you need to be working for a company that has proper support staff rather than being out on your own or working for a company that does not respect your abilities.

Btw, I was a designer for several years before I got the gig I have now. I still do some design and illustration, not just production and print, but you know what? I like the job I have now much better than 'scratching out a living as a graphic artist'. :D

To each their own.

[Cahenz]

I was a designer for several years before I got the gig I have now. I still do some design and illustration, not just production and print, but you know what? I like the job I have now much better than 'scratching out a living as a graphic artist'.

You're making my point for me, dude. You abandoned the career path of a designer or artist for something else...the only way to really make a comfortable wage as a graphic designer is to stop being one. And I never really contested the idea that a designer's work is a commodity. My goal with any of my clients is to make them happy, not push my artsy fartsy ideas on them.

Ah, screw you all anyway. Infighting and bickering is the reason nothing gets done. Designers and artists can't really get along with one another I think.

I'm out. This silly nonsense (that I started for some idiotic reason) is distracting me from my work.

[Danger_Mouse]

dude you are so off base. and now you're getting all your teets in a knot because some dont agree with you. From your perspective when someone disagrees with you its bickering and infighting, what others would call a healthy debate. Sounds like you are the root of your own problem.

so....screw U.

Oh and Unions make for lazy complacent people in my opinion. (loving that word complacent today).

[morea]

Ah, screw you all anyway. Infighting and bickering is the reason nothing gets done. Designers and artists can't really get along with one another I think.

I think you're wrong. We have a strong community of artists and designers here, and they DO get along, even if there are minor disagreements from time to time.

Allow me to refer you to the forum rules (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13650) and code of conduct (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7787) which state that you need to show respect to others here, even if you don't agree with what they have to say.

Statements like "screw you" are both rude and uncalled for, and will not be tolerated.

[PrintDriver]

He can see my career choice in the way he wants, as he does not know exactly what it is I do for creative work. The way I see it, I have a very good balance between a good artistic career and the absolute mayhem of production. It was by no means a sell out. I'm having far more fun working on things that have more than two sides and are bigger than a breadbox than I ever did designing brochures and swag and business cards. :D

I never said you had to stop being a GD. Just explore your options a little more.

The problem no one ever seems to see is that if the graphic designers could organize into a licensing body, they would have to decide amongst themselves where the skills demarcation line would be, and no one wants to be left below it. Even once that line was drawn, there would still be 'gypsies' out there that would still steal some of your business by pricing low and flying under the radar. And there would still be companies that would hire the gypsies. It wouldn't be much different than it is now, except you'd be out some whopping big dues payments offset slightly by some possible group benefits. Would having a license make business any better? Would it guarantee you more jobs? Would companies be willing to pay to hire on a licensed designer or would they just have the untrained office assistant do the work much like they do now? I've been waiting many years for someone to prove me wrong. I'd concede gracefully if they did. ;)

[cjdevlin]

It sounds like his talent is keeping him below an acceptable wage and he is biting back at those he assumes are keeping him down.

ART is painting a soup can and slapping a price tag on it. GD is designing the actual label for the can, which means you have way too many people above you that need to approve the label before it goes on the can. It's fun, it's creative, but it is a business first, art second. If you disagree, the next time your boss hands you corrections, declare you are an artisté and storm off in a rage. In a few weeks you'll really see why they call them starving artists.

You're making my point for me, dude. You abandoned the career path of a designer or artist for something else...the only way to really make a comfortable wage as a graphic designer is to stop being one. And I never really contested the idea that a designer's work is a commodity. My goal with any of my clients is to make them happy, not push my artsy fartsy ideas on them.

Ah, screw you all anyway. Infighting and bickering is the reason nothing gets done. Designers and artists can't really get along with one another I think.

I'm out. This silly nonsense (that I started for some idiotic reason) is distracting me from my work.

[Danger_Mouse]

It sounds like his talent is keeping him below an acceptable wage and he is biting back at those he assumes are keeping him down.



agreed

[budafist]

It's true enough that sitting around moaning and crying won't change your situation. It's also true that anyone with any intelligence knows that when you become a working artist, you're in for a worthwhile struggle.


Just wanted to add, I live in house with me, a promotions manager, a receptionist of a huge finance company and a chef in one of the best restaurants in town. I take home the most money per week.

[Mynock]

Do we need Bob Ross?

[Typically]

mmmmm fan brushes

[Virgo Nightingale]

There are no mistakes, just happy accidents.

[Mynock]

We all need a little happy in the world.

[budafist]

...and more special brownies.

[PrintDriver]

and now we are on food. Budafist musta shown up. LOL!

I'm not putting anyone down, nor should you guys. The comments I make about licensing and unions, etc, I've been making on here for 4+ years. It's getting kind of tired because it always goes the same way. All angst, no action.

Oooh, something shiny.
:D

[budafist]

Maybe we aren't mistreated enough to form a union or to have a strike?

[razuel]

I'm really quite confused. I'm only 19 (almost 20) years old and I'm working for a friend who started his own small business in an average sized city (200kish) and we're making great money. We aren't charging any less than most designers either-- or so I think. I heard someone mention XXX <edit: pricing discussions are not allowed on the forum> for a logo, we just charged quite a bit more than that for a company. We make our design pitches we come up with so intriguing that it's tough for them to turn down, whatever the price (or at least that's what our feedback says).

I'm still a student as well. I don't feel as though I'm taking jobs from graphic designers and it's pretty insulting when more experienced designers get angry with us because we're trying to work in the field. When I graduate in a couple of years I need a career; would you rather we sit on our asses and let you have all of the work? Some of the crap I've seen from other companies around here sort of shows me why we can probably charge the prices we do. I'm not the best in the city, but I'm far more skilled than some companies I'm seeing out there.

To give you an example, here's a company in my city--
http://www.netoptions.biz/portfolio.asp

I'm not saying that their work is terrible, but I see no creativity and their style is extremely out of date. All of their designs are very similar and look like they could be templates. To me it seems like they need to go back to school and take a lesson in color theory, too. Their stock photography is far too... stock photography looking. All in my opinion of course.

And here's an example of one of my latest designs,
www.fatkin.com/srs (http://www.fatkin.com/srs) (our coder's page)

I could critique the hell out of my design too (I know it needs work), but I feel as though it's much better than the quality of a lot of stuff I'm seeing from people working in the field already around here. I, too, used stock photography-- but at least I chose impactful, unique pictures and incorporated them into the design as a whole.

Basically my point is... I think the work is out there. I don't want to be a dick, and I've never seen any of your work (those of you complaining). But if it looks anything like the above company, maybe that's why. Or maybe it has something to do with the way you're presenting your services to potential clients. I've done a lot of research on sales, design theory, and how to present myself in general-- it's all been extremely helpful. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I don't think it's as bad as you guys are making it out to be. Unless I'm very lucky, which is possible; but it's been steady for about a year now. And we have worked our asses off to get the work we have gotten, so it's not falling into our laps by any means.

Rather than get angry and cry about it, why not get angry and kick some ass? Put me in my place. Although I'm young, I've learned very quickly that this is a very, very competitive business.

Now that I've probably thoroughly pissed everyone off because I'm half your age, let me have it :O

P.S. I only read the first page.

[cjoe]

razuel,

its a free market, go for it just don't under cut too much. you might charge more like the market average when you have built a reputation and depending on your target market etc.

reputation is worth a lot, and If you target the right market, maybe get one big high-end client or win award then you can start charging more and then you may find your market may actually expand.

I did an internship for a design firm in my home town, and they have basically dominated the high end market because they have built a reputation over 10 years. Now they charge almost twice as much as other place, they get all the best clients, they have greater creative freedom. They still do small jobs but people approch them to do it, so they basicaly define the terms.

There are always going to be hacks as someone said before, but if you can build a solid rep and do great work (which it looks like you are doing) then don't worry about it. I charge less for my freelance stuff because I have no real reputation, and I am looking for portfolio additions. I will often say, 'don't pay me as much just spend the extra on getting a die cut or special'. but I digress...

[reuber1]

Thank god I found the thread that saw fit for the return of Bob Ross. But c'mon mynock, you don't have the animated gif version of him as the Happy Clouds?

[razuel]

cjoe,

I understand what you're saying, but I don't really credit reputation. Yes, we receive referrals, mostly from an internet company we did work for; but that's because we implemented smart business. There's no reason someone who's been in the business for 14 years can't make the same connections.

I came into this with the mindset-- how did the most successful designers get to where they are today? Did they do the same thing as everyone else and continue along one path until they made the big bucks? Or did they get innovative, push themselves constantly, and fight their way there? Most likely, the second; continual improvement is necessary in this field. Styles change constantly, the media is always evolving and a designer needs to do the same. There will always be design work out there as long as television, the web, and print media in general exist. There will be designers who get the jobs and then designers who wish they could get them. The designers who get them didn't sit around wishing, that's for sure.

There have been times that we didn't have work to do, but I didn't complain. I worked even harder than when we did have a client to do work for. I researched, stayed up to date on latest design trends, scouted potential clients, came up with design pitches, and kept our current clients happy. The referrals or any amount of reputation we receive have been due to our business efforts, not becaue of the quality of our designs. We could have the best work out there, but if we didn't know how to market ourselves then it'd be useless. There are better designers than me around here that don't get the work because they don't take the necessary steps. It doesn't take a staff of marketers or a degree in advertising, all of the information out there is at anyone's disposal.

Like you, we took on crappy jobs at first, but that didn't last long because we knew what to do in order to turn those crappy jobs into high paying jobs. Which you may be doing, but that's directed towards anyone who does the same thing day in and day out and expects to move forward.

In short: in my opinion, anyone can do it, it's a matter of will power.

[idaho]

People, people, people... We are the cause of our own problems. I have had many people come to me and say "my nephew will do it for this $$$$." and we just let them go out the door without saying a word. It is our responsibility to educate our current and potential customers about the value they are getting by having a a professional do the work rather than little Joey.

We have to offer the customer more than just a pretty looking piece of artwork. We need to offer them a service such and advising them on how to address their target audienc and other marketing related services.

If anyone thinks that they can get by these days by just being an 'artist' then they are only fooling themselves. Our professional is ever evolving and if you don't evolve with it then you are doomed to extinction.

[PrintDriver]

Razuel, I like your mindset. And your example. You gotta be on top of what's out there, read the trades, know who's who, brush up your skills, get your name out there. The competition is fierce. Designers today have to deal with that. Or not. If not, don't complain.

[cjdevlin]

I've seen plenty of people take their business out the door because the Administrative Assistant had Publisher on her computer and this would save them the money they spent on us. They're back in six months asking for us to do their work again. When a client asks how much something would cost, tell them. If they complain or try to negotiate the hell out of you, don't be afraid to let them go. If money is that much of a big deal to them, imagine how tough it would be to try to collect, or tell them that the additional six hours of changes they just dropped on you after you dropped the job off at the press is going to cost them.

You get what you pay for.

[Emptysix]

I'm just going to say that over the course of the last two days my outlook has changed completely... this thread has really opened my eyes to the fact that I've pretty much just jumped from one crappy staff job to another and for the most part to newspapers which honestly isn't about quality of design but editorial content and quantity of advertising. This realization of the fact that I CAN market myself... but I don't just makes me sad. So starting now... I'm going to follow the motto that a friend and I at my last job kept on the wall but I never really followed (he did and I should have). "1: Re-invent yourself 2: Repeat". Time for an upgrade peoples... and whether you like it or not you all are gonna help me I'll probably be posting tons of crap in the following months so be ready for it.

[budafist]

We've had a bit of press lately with some government organisations being rebranded - our city paid $1 million for a new city logo and our water company a similar amount.

I do think it is important that they announce the cost logos paid by my taxes but can someone tell them I would have done it for half that? :D

Hmmm....I know we aren't supposed to discuss pricing here, but $1 million for a logo surely is so abstract that it is a novelty to discuss?

[Virgo Nightingale]

^^ Just as much of a novelty as the $50 logos we talk about... :rolleyes:

[budafist]

Or the free logo generator that recently had an advertising spot on this forum.

[Typically]

ohhhhhhh free logo generator that sounds like it'd save me a lot of money!

[Two-Toe Tom]

can't go wrong with free stuff :)

[bhnh]

Interesting discussion. I've been in graphic design and illustration professionally since 1971, and the frustrations and opinions expressed in this thread have certainly been continuously voiced as long as I've been in the biz; no doubt the guys who were painting aurochs on the cave walls at Lascaux were saying much the same things to each other.

A couple of thoughts and observations from an old fart:


I'm disinclined to target GD people as miscreants; whenever you try to organize any kind of creative professionals it's like trying to herd cats. Just a correction: it's not a writer's strike going on, it's a Writers' Guild strike. The Guild's highly organized... also hard to get into, fairly exclusive, not cheap to be a member of and with very strict rules about who gets paid what. And you'd better believe that there are armies of hungry, non-Guild writers pounding on the doors of the studios the Guild is striking against.
If you're a freelance artist, from a workplace perspective you are a small business; a sole proprietorship... essentially no different from running shoe store or a diner. And, well, there aren't any shoe store owners' unions. There are, however, small business associations, which can do things like get sole proprietors remotely affordable health insurance. You don't have to wait for a Graphic Artists Assn to form. Most states have small business organizations.
Most of us have a tendency to overvalue what we do; I'm as guilty of this as anyone else. Yes, there are the occasional million-dollar logos, but IMHO that's the art of the con job rather than the art of design. And it's been my personal experience that ill feelings about compensation run both ways; the client feels he/she's overpaying as much as the artist feels underpaid. I've found the fairest way to approach the problem is to set yourself an hourly rate, be it $10 or $100 an hour. This is something that clients can understand. Estimate the time the job will take you and that's your quote. Tell the client he/she's entitled to (pick a number) of revisions, and anything over that will cost extra. If you underestimated how long the job takes you, eat the loss and estimate more realistically next time.
Art school-shmart school. I went to college, but I was a classic greet major. I've never taken an art course. I worked for several years in the late '70s as an art director, and would cringe when an art school grad applied for a position; it ment months of un-training and retraining. What counts is what's in the portfolio, not the school tie you've got on.
If your clientele is local, your income's going to reflect the local economy. I live in rural southern New Hampshire, and I'd starve... as would the three kids I've got in college... if I tried to live off local clientele. My nearest regular client is 300 miles away. Luckily, with today's telecommunications and the internet it's a whole lot easier to work nationally and even globally.Well, I'd keep occupying this soapbox, but I'm knees are giving out and it's time for my Geritol. Ciao.

[PrintDriver]

Bhnh, thank you for bringing some articulate perspective to this thread.
I hope you decide to hang around!