Logo advise

[DeZiner]

Hey all. My dad has a co-worker who is considering using me to design some type of flyer advertsement. My dad told me that the guy wants me to sketch a design for him to be used on the flyer-like project. I believe this falls under the logo category right? This would be my first logo job, and I could use any pointers and tips for pricing. I know logos are supposed to be priced "expensively" but should I go to a great extreme? Guess that depends on the size and detail of the project right? I just started my in-home business in August and was wondering should I have the nerve to charge this guy big bucks. It'll probably be done by hand for the most part, but then again I don't haveany soliddetails on what the guy actually wants. What about copyrights? I'll browse the forums for I'm sure this topic has been touched on before, but If you have advise please post it. Thanks.

[DeZiner]

No advise whatsoever? anyone at all?

[uncle carbunkle]

you've got to research. find out EXACTLY what guy wants. research other designers in your area - see what the going rate is.

it's not wrong to charge a fair price for a decent product. this subject has been covered MANY times before. i haven't got time right now to search for you, but if i come across a specific thread, i'll link to it here. otherwise, you can surely find it in the forum. probably under resources or general.

post more details about what the project is when you know, and maybe people can help more.

good luck!

:: Durable and doable in a swimsuit, yet not designed for surfing, cliff diving, extreme groping and other high-impact activities. ::

[subdriverswife]

I agree w/ unc. Its best to have some starting point. Check out logobob.com's free advice link. There's a set of questions they use to determine their prospect/clients' style be it trendy, retro, classic, simplistic, modern, bold, etc. You might do something similar for this client to get a feel for the direction he'd like to see the flier take. As for price, definately charge for the work and quality but since your home business is new, I wouldn't go to an extreme on it.

Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens....Jimi Hendrix

[ReedHendrix]

Or just buy one off one of them '$20 a logo' sites and then sell it to your client for a pretty profit... /emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[D-Zine]

definately get back to us when you get some more info so we can see if we can help you more k!

Boobie Island or Bust!

[DeZiner]

Ok, thanks everyone so far, I'll continue searching. I see there are a ton of threads on this site, and I learned some good things yesterday while browsing and reading. This will be my first logo job (if I get it) and I want to do right by it with design and legalities and It's gonna be up to me to know these things, because I'm positive this guy has no or very little knowledge about the involvements of a logo design. I'm gonna have to be able to explain to him why this little logo costs 'X' amount of dollars

[Stickwood1]

Keep me posted on this too as I am about to do my first proper paid job for a logo soon aswell

I have practiced a lot of shape manipulation in Illustrator and am quite competent with it now

Is hard to work out what to charge, if you get what you think you are worth then you won't go far wrong I don't think.

Anyone can say $500 or £500 per hour but then ask yourself, are you that good?

/emoticons/icon_redface.gif


Yikes Scoob, it's behind you!

[DeZiner]

Okay, still no details yet, but Stickwood1 just mentioned something - using Illustrator. I don't have any of the "real deal" software to design with yet. I mean, I know about Adobe, Quark, Coreland the like, but I haven't accumulated the cash to buy these products yet. I've only been in business a month! With that said I'm going to have to rely on my sketching skills and Microsoft Works to do this project. I know I'm at a disadvantage here, but not too much...right?

[ReedHendrix]

I'm sorry to say but I would class that as a huge disadvantage... you could also have problems when you come to print.

[woodwardo]

The answer is easy. Decide how much you're worth, and charge by the hour. The more complex it is the more time it'll take you ie: the more $$ you'll make. It doesn't sound like a logo job to me.
--wooDy

Edit: Oh and you really really need to invest in some software. Microsoft!? /emoticons/shakehead.gif

-- eff.

Post Edited (woodwardo) : 9/22/2004 11:41:57 PM GMT

[wango]

Look Buddy,

Im a strong believer in a graphic designer's right to competitive compensation, but, based on what you are offering, I honestly don't think you have the moral right to charge more than $10 an hour, & that's pushing it. Now let me explain myself; I understand you are new to the field, but YOU are NOT a graphic designer, not yet. Graphic designer's don't use works (or at least shouldn't be); you need to seriously consider investing in some professional grade software. Yes, it's expensive - but who said you had to get the latest & greatest, set your sights on the heavily discounted older versions of such programs a Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, ect. And most companies offer discounted rates for students, milk that dry. Based on what you described, your potential client will not be getting a professional product; therefore it is unethical for you to charge him 'professional' rates. That being said, you still deserve to be compensated for your efforts, therefore I suggest you charge him by the hour instead of quoting him a total. That way you are being paid based on your EFFORT & TIME, until you gain the experience and aptitude to be compensated based on your TALENT. Of course you can choose to completely ignore my rant & advice and charge this guy a lot for what little you offer, but eventually he will meet a real designer & realize he's been taken advantage of. Just keep humble until you have the portfolio to back your rates. Good luck with your business man, you'll need it.

http://www.geocities.com/wangaworks_design/logo_preview.gif (http://www.wangaworks.com)

[DeZiner]

Okay thanks for the help everyone. I realize that using Works is not ideal, even though by using it so far I've had satisfied customers.Of courseI agree withyou vwanga and I understand what you are saying.I would hate to overcharge this guy, that's why I'm asking you all for advice. The reason why I haven't spent the cash on anything ideal yet is because I've got to buy the entire Adobe Creative Suite for college, which starts early next year. The catch is, in order to save $800.00 on it I have to be accepted and enrolled to the college- which hasn't happened yet. So, I figure why spend the cash on an old version of Photoshop when I can use that same cash to help buyCS in a few months? Woodwardo mentioned this dosen't sound like a logo job, you may be right. All my dad told me is the guy wants a flyer (not even flyers) with some kind of design or logo-like design on it. I don't know if he wants this flyer for a one-time thing or not. My dad also mentioned a sketched design, which is no problem, because I sketch better than anything else I cando. The problem would probably start if the design needs to be printed and used in different sizes. (I experienced that problem with some recent entries for automobile design contest.) I'll get more info about the project and be sure to let you all know. Thanks again.

Post Edited (DeZiner) : 9/23/2004 6:35:11 AM GMT

[DeZiner]

While we're on the subject, which do you guys prefer to use for logos, Photoshop or illustrator? or would yousay it is bestto use them both? I remember a thread in one of the forums here saying something about "don't use photoshop for logos" (can't recall where it is at the moment.) I took vwanga's advice and started looking for old versions of photoshop, and I'm thinking of trying out version 5.0LE fora start if I can get it.

[ReedHendrix]

Don't use PhotoShop for logos!

Most people use either FreeHand or Illustrator because they're vector based. Check this out for more information on the subject:

www.graphicdesignforum.com/default.aspx?f=36&m=20303 (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/default.aspx?f=36&m=20303)

[DeZiner]

Thanks ReedHendrix, I had read that thread a couple day ago, (Ireally enjoyed the beautiful website posted by Junia in that thread.) but it's great to know that you all trying to help me out. OK, Freehand or Illustrator eh? guess I better look for some deals on them too! How about Xara? anybody using it? Probably would be harder to find it for a price cheaper than old versions of Illy or freehand.

[coconut]

I don't think Xara is going to do it for you. In a few years if you keep with being a graphic designer your going to laugh at yourself when you where starting off. Photoshop and Illustrator and Freehand require years, years and years of experience. I myself started out with whatever I could get and you are pretty much 'getting there' when you realize these tools you have been using aren't going to cut it.
There is much more to what we do than designing and having great ideas.
Experience is priceless. There is so much more to this field. Just because you can make business cards in Word, and flyers, doesn't classify you as a graphic designer. When you have to send something to press and they require you to print the product to a distiller first so you present them with a .pdf, your not going to make it, what if you needed color seperations, can you do that, do you know what a bleed is?
If you were a cabinet maker you would have to invest in tools for your trade, a name brand saw, and all that other stuff they use, you couldn't make a living with a old fashioned hand saw, you might be able to produce some pieces, but the quality wouldn't be there.
You have to spend some money to make some money. On the other hand I suggest you spend a year working in the production department of a newspaper or print shop. Not trying to bring you down for wanting or trying to work, just trying to save you some stress and let down. You are limiting yourself to what you can do by not having the proper training or tools.

Coconuthttp://www.adleragency.net/ads/pearbug.jpg

[DeZiner]

Yes, Iunderstand what you guys are saying but you've got to realize I'm on a very strict budget right now. I'm just trying to find some software to experiment with until I can afford the nwe products. I know that Xara and old versions of Adobe are not the best, but (1) I can't afford the new versions right now. (2) I haven't had any experience with software design programs of this calibur. That's why I think it would be good for me to start out with something old and get a basic feel for using the software. As I said before, I'm supposed to be using Adobe Creative Suite in college early next year. I also understand that I'm not a certified graphic designer, I just started my business to (1) exercise my God-given ability(2) to gain a feel for handling basic print and design projects (3)to earn some money for college. So far It has been going well.
Yes, It is true what coconut mentioned, I can look back at my sketching skills from 3,2, or even 1 year ago when I thought I was really doing something and see the mistakes I used to blindly make. I realize this concept is in basically everything whether it's in sketching, painting or evenbeing a Saint of God. All I was doing was asking for help, but it sounds like some of you have the impression thatI think I've already made it, or I'm at the top. And that's noteven close to the truth. I'm only trying to learn. Only this year haveI reallybecame interested in Graphic design. In high school I was determined to become an architect, and I was really geared towards it;but that doesn't seem to be God's plan for me right now. However,with my varied interest in art, architecture was not my only focus. I like illustration, interior design, Industrial design, and graphic design. Simply put I love to draw/sketch and design. Pencil and paper or software programs.Always have and always will. I appreciate everyone's help so far, and I hope you all truly understand where I'm coming from.

[DeZiner]

I hear you vwanga, but check out my previous post for the reasons I started my business.

[wango]

Yeah, sorry I was replying while you were posting :)

Anyway, considering the software your using, the skills you have, & your severe lack of experience, there is no way you will make any substantial amount of money - or at least anything that could put a dent into your tuition. You’re rushing things too much, you’re going to college for graphic design in a year, at school all of the software you require should be provided for you. Your instructors will assist you in learning and mastering all applicable programs & techniques. Just wait, after a few semesters you will have a better grasp on the industry and perhaps, depending on your learning abilities, you can begin doing some quality freelance on the side. I know you want to start now, to get some money, but with the resources you have, it just isn't possible or wise. I was just like you (I’m 19 now) but thankfully, my older brother provided me with all the software & equipment I needed so I was able to successfully freelance by my sophomore year in HS. You unfortunately don't have this luxury, but when you start school you will, & you will have no more disadvantages, & your technical talents can finally catch up to your visual talents. At our age, their is no rush, if you are as artistically talented & intelligent as I think you are, you will pick up the programs in no time, & be well no your way to a great career. Just keep your head up and visit the library & do as much reading as possible to get the edge on your classmates, anything on typography, logo identities, prepress, layout, color theory, ect. The more preparation you do, the easier school will be, the more talented you get & ultimately the more employable you will become. Best of luck & send me an MSN message (vincent@wangaworks.com) sometime if you want more advice.

http://www.geocities.com/wangaworks_design/logo_preview.gif (http://www.wangaworks.com)

[coconut]

not trying to put you down partner, just trying to give you some advise. On the forum you will notice that everyone has their own opinion sometimes we share the same opinion and we have all had to work hard to get where we are. You use your own disgression when it comes to taking advise. I think you can download some trial versions of the softwares and there might even be shareware. Good luck I admire your strive! :)

Coconuthttp://www.adleragency.net/ads/pearbug.jpg

[DeZiner]

Okay, thanks again. Vwanga, you were very fortunate to already have the software you needed. Yes, when school starts I will have all the necessary products I need. I don't plan on going all out at least until I earn my certificate. Right now I'm only handling print jobs such business cards for local lawn care services, flyers, bid sheets,etc. Even though the software I have is wack, it is able to handle these type of projects, and it is helping me develop some design skill. I'm making money, but of course not loads. But it is way better than not making anythinghttp://www.graphicdesignforum.com//emoticons/biggrin.gif vwanga, I thought you were much older than me! I'll be 19 in January. Anyway, I'm trying to learn all that I can before college. My graphic design portfolio is very small because most of my artwork is either structures, houses, floorplans, portraits, illustrations or automobiles. But thejobsI'm getting now are helping me out. Thanks also coconut, I mean it's not that I was against what you were saying, I can feel you all are telling me thetruth, I just thought that there was a misunderstanding of what I'm trying to do which is gain some experience any way I can get it- not trying to offer low quality work or call myself a pro designer. It's partially my fault too, because I didn't fully explain my situation at the beginning.I found a good deal on Xara and I think it will be a good program to at least start out on. Thank you all for not giving up on me.

Post Edited (DeZiner) : 9/26/2004 4:53:10 AM GMT

[wango]

Yeah im turning 20, but i've been doing graphic design for the past five years, &am currently attending the AIFL- (Bachelors of Science). So though I may be young I do have some credibility & vast experience for my age. Nonetheless, take my advice with a grain of salt, for their are a plethera of paths to success:). Also don't get to comfortable with Xara, in my opinion, and im sure im not alone, it's very limited & formulaic. If you can't afford the best programs try going for alternate & less expensive sofware's such as Paint Shop Pro & Corel Draw for example. Anyway Good luck buddy.




http://www.geocities.com/wangaworks_design/logo_preview.gif (http://www.wangaworks.com)

Post Edited (vwanga) : 9/26/2004 5:46:29 AM GMT

[DeZiner]

vwanga, isn't that the Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale? I'm planning on attending the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, online though. I'll beaiming for an associates. Yes, I'll be in contact with you. You have to let me know what it's like.

[PrintDriver]

DeZiner-
You haven't had any of the printer guys wade in here yet...
We were all too busy weeping at your posts.
The programs you are using are not making this easy for your clients or their printers to get things done. You've actually found printers who will accept Microsoft Works files? Or are you printing from laser 'camera ready art'? or using template vendors for these business cards?
Xara is another program that is not supported by the print community. If you can .eps it or pdf it properly then maybe we can print from it. I've been trying to get a hold of a file produced in it to see if it even rips.

You need to create logos in a vector based program. They need to be scaleable to any size. They also need to have PMS colors so they can be reproduced consistently with the same color no matter what print process. Know that every added spot color is gonna cost you when it comes time to print so a two or three color logo is ideal. Black is considered a color. Or create a 4-color process logo with several variations (the same logo but in black and white or two color). That's called creating a Graphic Standard and somewhere on this forum I posted a fake one but can't find the thread. (Damn search still isn't working for me).

Once you have that college ID you can get Adobe CS premium for $380 at www.academicsuperstore.com (you will need a picture ID too, like a drivers license if you don't have a pic on your ID). This is a legit site. You will need to ask how to get a commercial license for the software - after you learn to use it - if you plan on using it for your business. When you have the correct tools and the skills to use them then you can charge what your worth.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

Post Edited (PrintDriver) : 9/27/2004 1:01:44 AM GMT

[DeZiner]

Ok Printdriver thanks for the post. I'm only doing basic print jobs as I mentioned in my previous post- business cards, flyers, greeting cards, etc. basically paper/stationery projects. No, I don't have to send any files to my clients.My clientstell me what they want, I design it to their satisfaction and that's it. Yes, Irealize I need a vector based program to do logos, the thing is I don't even advertise that I do logo designs, this guy just saw my skills and told my dad he would be interested in having me to design some type of sign or logo for a flyer.I haven't even offered my services to companies or major corporations, never planned to. I'm just offering services to local small businesses and individuals who can use my services. Yes, I'm aware of academicsuperstore and them offering CS for $380.00 I'll buy it from them, or either the Art Institute, which sale CS to students for around $400.00 Thanks for the help, feel free to share any info with me about printing-because I could use it. Again, my business is not some "major" thing, I just started it to gain some design experience before college and put a some change in my pocket. I'm not here to rip people off. This is the first time someone asked for a logo so I asked you guys for help. My very first customer was so pleased with the work I did for him, he paid me more than I asked him for, thena few weeksafter that placed another order. If you all would like to see some of my work, I'll post it. You'll probably laugh simply because it's Microsft works, but right now it's working for me. I'm not complaining; neither are my customers. Gotta get off-line, it'sstorming. Talk to you all soon!