Bilingual Layouts.

[Element_13]

I wasn't sure where to post this but I have a question I am hoping some of you experts could help me with. I am currently working on a project for a client who is requesting both English and French on the same piece. I was wondering if anyone had any idea of specific guidelines to follow when laying out both languages or any insight as to what the preferences are in Canada as to things like the address and logos. Any comments or suggestions are greatly welcomed. Thanks in advance.

[morea]

I don't know the rules in Ontario, but I know that it can be a real problem if you do it "wrong" in Quebec.

http://french.about.com/b/2003/07/15/language-police-hard-at-work.htm

[morea]

you could check the websites for RGD Ontario: www.rgdontario.com
or the GDC: http://www.gdc.net/

they might have some guidelines that would help you.

[cjoe]

i still think that having a French speaking section of a country is weird. Even the French speaking French is weird

[morea]

A bit of a tangent here, Element, please forgive me.

I don't have any problem with learning the french language and I understand the desire to promote the language here as a part of the movement to preserve the culture. I do indeed respect that. Unfortunately, some people on the other side of the fence are downright rabid about it. Practically militant, for heaven's sake.

An example - there's an outcry here because at the start of a phone message the recording will often say "for english, press 9" (in the same way that in the US there is an option at the start of the call for spanish speakers). Some people here believe that this is somehow unfair, and that the entire message should be read in french first, and then at the end of the recording they should say "to hear options in english, press 9".

Now, if I call a business and I don't hear an option for english early in the message, I generally assume that there is not an option for english service, and hang up. The three or four seconds that it takes to state this at the beginning of the message is not a serious inconvenience for francophones, and most people I know here are (fortunately) very open-minded about this sort of thing. I just don't understand that attitude, because Canada has TWO official languages, and QC is a part of Canada, so you'd think that even if the french language is given preference (which is fair enough, in my mind), they would have at least SOME interest in assisting anglophones as well. (Not even to mention that the province shares a border with the US and would make it easier for tourists if they didn't try to virtually eliminate english.)

The part of QC that I live in was founded by English settlers, but is now a predominantly francophone area. I speak enough french to get by, and I am perfectly willing to learn more, but that takes time.

It's mind boggling to me that some people here feel that in order to promote the french language, the english language has to be completely banned. I understand that people feel like they were oppressed in the past, but the situation here and now isn't much better... the roles are just reversed.

Some QCers will only be happy if English is completely banned in this province. Apparently it was bad enough that in 1993 the United Nations Human Rights Committee (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bill101/) had to step in to protect the rights of anglophone QCers. Even now, there isn't much here that is readily available in english - the newspapers, signs, directions, etc. are almost all exclusively done in french. At least it's not actually *illegal* to use English, even if it is uncommon.

If you are interested in more information, here is a link to a thread from the Montreal Gazette's community forum: What's life like for Anglophones in Quebec? (http://communities.canada.com/MONTREALGAZETTE/forums/thread/20712.aspx)

[Ovaltine]

All I know is that when I did French/English labels, our French interpreter had me use commas instead of periods for the decimal places.

So 12.25cm would actually be written 12,25cm.

It was only mildly annoying since the inches to centemeter converter program I used used periods and I had to triple check all my labels before they went out.

[morea]

also dollar signs come after the price.

In english we write $10.99.
In french it would be 10,99 $.


Also, thousands are written using spaces instead of commas:

In english: 1,000
In french: 1 000

[Ovaltine]

Oooh that would confuse me.

[ZippyTheWonderMonkey]

Tangent taken

A bit of a tangent here, Element, please forgive me.

I don't have any problem with learning the french language and I understand the desire to promote the language here as a part of the movement to preserve the culture. I do indeed respect that. Unfortunately, some people on the other side of the fence are downright rabid about it. Practically militant, for heaven's sake.

An example - there's an outcry here because at the start of a phone message the recording will often say "for english, press 9" (in the same way that in the US there is an option at the start of the call for spanish speakers).

pretty soon it'll be:

"For English, Press One Now"

"Por Espanol, (press) Dos Nuevo"

"if you're wearing a Burqha, Press 3 now"

"If you're slightly deformed in your right leg and have a bit of a gimp, press 4 now"

"if you don't like the OFFICIAL language of the country you're in, Press 5 now" (not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with speaking another language, but I stress that you respect the country you are in. 'Cuz I wouldn't go to France and expect them to speak English to me.)

"if you're a total moron that lets this crappy phone system happen, hang up and kill yourself as painfully as possible NOW"

[Danger_Mouse]

We do alot of french versions of our english ads....we send it out to a quebec translator then he sends it back and we lay it out. Then send it for final proofing to the translator.

[captain spanky]

how interesting Morea! :)
Where i live there are certain portions of the area which are like driving through another country... all the signs are in Urdu/Hindi and you can walk though quite happily for a while not hearing english for hours... so bizarre! It's a bit like you said, in order to promote one language, they seem to have, in effect, banned others.

I've done one blingual layout before and all i did was place two lots of text in two symetrically shaped columns (English in book and French in italic). I didn't know there were rules and stuff! Cool

[Element_13]

Thanks for all the info Morea. Just to clarify, I work for a company that does translation and graphic design. I know it sounds like a weird combination but we actually do a lot of work for the provincial and fedral gov'ts and many associations related to either of those, most of which require both languages. With that being said, the French is already translated and has come back to me to be typeset. Usually for this client we do seperate pieces for each language. On this single piece though, it is bilingual. The issue I'm having is with space as it is only a small folder to hold a cd and bilingual booklet. Unfortunately, I can not post a link to the work as it is considered classified (nothing special, just some conservation work). I was particularly interested in things like the address and the logotype in order to try to save some space. While I am convinced that I have to rejig the logotype to include French, the address is still stumping me. There doesn't seem to be a clear set of standards for it. I do know that they use a different form for the addresses but I just want to know if it is neccessary to have both French and English on the same page for contact information. It just seems very redundant to me. Either way, if I find out any more information on this I will be sure to pass it along to the community as it seems to be an issue that has not be solved before.

[morea]

Zippy - I don't have a problem with everyone being served in their own language. An interesting aside: did you know that the US does NOT HAVE an official language (http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html)?

Element - Maybe Broacher can offer some insight... I am not sure what the rules are for a logo since it's the actual "name" of the company.

For example, while laws in QC do say that french has to be given priority (I believe that the rule is that it has to be at least twice the size of the english, if english is included), there is a building in Montreal with a big sign on top that says "FIVE ROSES" (the name of a brand of flour), and that's in English... but I get the feeling that if the sign listed a tagline or any other information that it would have to be included in both languages.

Oftentimes, packaging here will be broken down so that one column is in french and the other is in english. In other cases, like on a box of pasta (etc.) one side is in french and the opposite side of the box is in english.

In your case, it would seem logical that the company name and address, being proper names, would be listed in english only. The envelopes you receive from the Canadian Post have the "to" and "from" instructions listed bilingually, but the addresses are only written on the envelope once.

Actually, maybe a quick call to your local post office could help sort some of this out?

I would definitely appreciate knowing what you find out. :)

[Element_13]

Unfortunately, I could not find any information on Biligual standards for the Provincial Gov't here. I did find a set for the Federal Gov't (they are actually pretty strict guidelines). In the end I spoke with the client and we worked out a solution. The folder we designed ended up having the logotype done in french and placed on the layout as there was room for it (it was smaller as English is the prevalent language). As for the text, the client increased the size and we placed all French below the original English in Italics. The booklet I was designing was bumped to double the page size (thank god this client has money to spare!) and we basically did a flip and added it to the back of the book so that from one side you read the English, then flip it over and upside down and you have the French version. As for the addresses, I did include both versions and just laid it out around their bilingual version of their logo. It actually looks pretty nice. I wish I could be of more assistance. Thanks for all the help.

[morea]

I wondered if there were any hard and fast rules for this, since I've never had any luck finding them, either.

Thanks for the follow up, Element. I'm glad that you and the client were able to work out a good solution. :)

[PrintDriver]

My only add to this would be to make sure you get the translation done before you do the layout. Most other languages translate up to 1/3 longer in space requirements than English. Something that has to be taken into account before layout starts.