Clever name, not so clever logo?

[Jriddim]

Hey My Gdf Pals!

I am currently working on a logo for this new little store in my neighboring town. The town is a small farm like town, and the store is a little tiny natural food market.. The woman who owns it is very nice, middle-aged and needs my help to properly communicate her business...

The name of her business is "The Butcher's Wife"

its a pretty clever name i think. Her husband really is a butcher, and she is the complete opposite... I think this though, is a VERY difficult name to work with. It is hard because I want it to read as a natural old-time kind of market, not bloody clevers meat house (lol).... she said she already had people ask her if she cuts up meat... so i really want to shy away from the butcherness if you will...


This is a very straight foward concept i have goin on now... I like the type, because she already has a sign up, and I wanted to use a similar serif font as the sign, so people would kind of tie them together...

This is hard for me because I am always trying to make connections between the logo and type, but this time I'm not sure if I can... I have already tried to work with an apron, a wedding ring etc... but it just didn't say food at all, and thats the most important thing to communicate...

what do u think of this???

too plain, uncreative? stupid? ugly? right on righteous? any comments would be greatly appreciated!

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1894/bwife2km5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[budafist]

Try a basket instead a bag. You want a certian homeliness about it. I'm thinking country things like checkered table cloths, wheat and flowers.

I feel like this illustration is too modern. Perhaps try some traditional techniques (or styled to seem like a traditional technique). A woodcut might work in this instance. A vector illustration just isn't small town to me.

[Danger_Mouse]

or an apron, but think a basket would be a better image

[CkretAjint]

I completely agree with Buda about the wood cut. I thought it, and then read her post!

I also think there is too much detail in the "logo", it's more of an illustrations then a logo. It uses 4 colors, probably won't convert to black and white to well (not grayscale), and when shrunk down will just look like a bunch of colored dots on a grat square with some text.

[Jriddim]

thanks for the quick responses guys, I know what you mean about the logo being very illustrative...I usually stay away from this, (im really a fan of minimalism in design) also I highlt agree that a basket would be a better image... Maybe ill post some of my previous ideas also...the only thing is that the woman is more of a progressive modern type... so i don't know if the whole homley woodcut idea would interest her.... I think im going to end up bringing her a few concepts...

[cjoe]

thanks for the quick responses guys, I know what you mean about the logo being very illustrative...I usually stay away from this, (im really a fan of minimalism in design) also I highlt agree that a basket would be a better image... Maybe ill post some of my previous ideas also...the only thing is that the woman is more of a progressive modern type... so i don't know if the whole homley woodcut idea would interest her.... I think im going to end up bringing her a few concepts...

while taking into accoun the clients personality is important, you need to think about the product and the target market. From what you've described your solution is not going to work in the current market. You are really going to need line illustration or woodcut style as was suggested, with earthy warm colours

[Jriddim]

ok i got u...can somebody give me a good example of this woodcut style? im not sure if I understand completley

[Two-Toe Tom]

here's what google gives for woodcut: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=woodcut&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

i'm thinking a butcher knife cutting through a tomato, with tomato juice flowing away, but that doesn't go away from the bloody butcher image, so nm :p

[Jriddim]

something like this?

I think its going in a better direction

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2595/butcherw3lq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[PrintDriver]

Take a look at some carved signs.
Here's a couple of starter links (not all of them are carved of course).
http://signweb.com/index.php/channel/7/id/1817
http://signweb.com/index.php/channel/7/id/1357
http://signweb.com/index.php/channel/8/id/477
Look at "In Company of Flowers", "Village Creamery", and "Bistro"
And "Rose Restaurant" and "Blacksmith"
The third link is just all around fun dimensional signage.

[Drorain]

The Butchers Wife, an excellent name, based on what you've described though, I think you need to look for some more folk town/art style designs and layouts.

I'm thinking a wood/plank signage motif, something like these
www.antique-signs.com/

and here

http://barscigarsandbrew.com/shop/markv.html

and something like this http://www.nelsonart.net/ATNantiqueWEBPH.jpg with a unique shape/trim to it.

I would go classic on the fonts, and try and draw some inspiration from the colors you see on signs like these. With this you could do simply a type treatment, but I think you can also ad some sort of icon/image connected to the work she does. Maybe an old style cartoon/caraciture of her carrying a pan of baked goods(playing up homestyle), maybe classic woodcut versions of raw ingredients like corn, wheat and some fruits.I think you want to definately styleize the image though with some illustrative method...woodcut, stamp, painters strokes...something.

Now having written all this and just looked back at the thread, some people gave the same advice...I will keep this to repeat the advice though and provide the links I researched...good luck

[Jriddim]

thanks for all your help guys, I think the woodcut/carved signs are wonderful, I was trying to bring that traditional woodcut style, and completley simplify it, making it feel more modern... I tried to do this @ post #9...I love the simplistic shapes, but my prob with post #9 is that it dosn't really say "wife" so I was thinking, maybe a simple flower in the basket?

do you guys like that idea at all? or should I try and illustrate a woman figure in that same style?

[PrintDriver]

Don't get TOO literal...

[GraphixNPrint]

For some reason when I read your post I think of wood carved figures, facing away from each other; a butcher and something like a housewife with an apron. She would be holding a basket with fresh fruits and veggies.

The facing away from each other would symbolize the opposite direction from her husbands business.

Just my 2 cents... if anyone doesn't like it; the sign here says Absolutely No Refunds! ;)

[carolyn]

thanks for all your help guys, I think the woodcut/carved signs are wonderful, I was trying to bring that traditional woodcut style, and completley simplify it, making it feel more modern... I tried to do this @ post #9...I love the simplistic shapes, but my prob with post #9 is that it dosn't really say "wife" so I was thinking, maybe a simple flower in the basket?

do you guys like that idea at all? or should I try and illustrate a woman figure in that same style?
you don't need to say "wife" with the imagery, the word is already right there in the name. your 2nd attempt is definitely an improvement but i think you should brainstorm a little more, and try to experiment more with the text, right now it's just a little boring.

[Jriddim]

OK.....

Since It's been a while since I first met this woman, I decided to stop in and show her my portfolio, and show her a print out of this concept


She seemed to like it a lot... Not OMFG crazy in love with it, but she seemed to be impressed. She liked the simplistic modern feel and how it wasn't all butchery etc... I told her that this was just one idea, and that I could make changes if needed. She asked If I do business cards etc... and then she asked if she could have the printout to show her husband.

I wrote down my name number and email on the back of the print out

She said she will call me...

Do u think I got the gig?

I hope so!!!

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7140/butcherswife4ie3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[GraphixNPrint]

If not it sounds like you just did a SPEC job :eek:

[WannaBrie]

I like it! nice illy! good work!

[Jriddim]

If not it sounds like you just did a SPEC job :eek:

what do u mean? do u think she is not going to call and have someone recreate my logo for free?

that would be pretty evil wouldn't it?

She already knows i am expecting payment after logo approval... Are you saying that I should have discussed price before I showed her anything?

Im curious please explain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WannaBrie]

No contract?

[GraphixNPrint]

OK.....
She said she will call me...

Do u think I got the gig?

I hope so!!!

I was thinking WHAT IF she doesnt call....

its possible for her to use something like vectormajic (sp?) and there you go she has it in vector now. Maybe I just don't trust people... but sh*t happens.

I do think its a good sign she asked if you do business cards, etc... it appears she is happy and will want to order stuff.

I guess I was just being cynical.

[Jriddim]

Wannabrie..... Thanks for your positivity

no contract...somebody please help me i need to raise above this embarrassing amateur level of not using a contract... This is something school needs to teach me... (did i forget to mention I am still in school)

im sorry but i am really new to the business side of design...

[Jriddim]

I was thinking WHAT IF she doesnt call....

its possible for her to use something like vectormajic (sp?) and there you go she has it in vector now. Maybe I just don't trust people... but sh*t happens.

I do think its a good sign she asked if you do business cards, etc... it appears she is happy and will want to order stuff.

I guess I was just being cynical.


no no no... you were looking out for your fellow GDFer....thanks Graphix...

[GraphixNPrint]

well, its a good thing to learn... while you were making the last post, I vectorized the color version you posted... pretty close, close enough to use. Now-a-days its pretty easy for anyone to copy something with technology the way it is.

Your not the first or last person to give something to someone and not think. A couple of months ago a client wanted an NCR form designed and was going to have us print it for them... this client had just paid for 5000 flyers we had done for them etc... so no big deal. I designed the form and sent a high res PDF to them to look over. Well, a week went by after he said it looks great, and nothing so I emailed him. He said he had been busy and would order them the next week. Still nothing... so I guess he got the file for free.

I don't think he had it printed anywhere else though, probably just printing on plain paper at home because no one around here beats our prices or quality on them.

But this is a lesson I learned ... if your sending a PDF send it secured so they cant print it themselves. If your giving a hard copy proof, mark it proof and put a copyright notice to prevent them from using it... nothings foolproof though.

[steve2112]

get a contract before you even brainstorm. your portfolio sells the job. Anything done before a signed contract and a deposit is bad bad bad. Not saying that she inparticuliar would screw you over but people will. And price should also be discussed and settled on before anything.

I actually have to do a job that i get paid upon deliver of all illustrations and no deposit. WHile it sucks i made sure the contract had certain terms in it. I hate doing that but it was that or no job whatsoever and tis is a good size publisher to work with.

steve


GET A CONTRACT ALWAYS

[Jriddim]

thanks you guys, your ever so helpful

[graphicsmama]

She already knows i am expecting payment after logo approval... Are you saying that I should have discussed price before I showed her anything?

I always request 50% up front along with a signed estimate before beginning any job. CYA you know...

[Drazan]

If you search on this forum for contract, there's quite a few posts.

Always get everything in writing. What is the scope (brief) of the project. Write down all the ideas that the client has, and write down what you are going to do to meet that idea. Write down how many revisions in the contract 3 to 5 phases is what we go by here. Write down the expected dead line, what files (final files only unless specifically charged for originals) are to be given, any charges for a proof print. Write down deposit and payment schedules. Usually there's a deposit to get the other party committed to the project. When I freelanced it was anywhere from 50% to 100% deposit depending on client and work. I also didn't turn over the final files until full payment was made. At my current job, it's simular except for our corporate clients; they run on a slightly different schedule.


If there is any changes beyond the first contracted brief, write a second estimate and have them sign off on it.

Also have them sign off on a final proof to "draw the line" saying that the project is completed, else you could end up with a person who wants to "tweak" and will complain that it's only a "5 minute" tweak when it comes time to charge them. Those 20 or so "tweaks" took an hour of time, plus being interupted because they want them "now". ;)

BTW your logo is awfully close to the title of the movie "The Butcher's Wife" http://imdb.com/title/tt0101523/

Jade

[Jriddim]

Thanks alot Draz,

Wow I did not know there was a movie!....omg it really is similar! I hope this isnt a problem! maybe I should mess with the type some more?

oh man im kinda freaked out now

[PrintDriver]

Oy.
Yes. Eat first. Design second.
Contract contract contract.
Always before spending any billable time (except in certain rare circumstances).
Of course, if she goes and uses it, you have timed and date stamped evidence here that you had it first. LOL!

[morea]

If not it sounds like you just did a SPEC job :eek:

what do u mean? do u think she is not going to call and have someone recreate my logo for free?

that would be pretty evil wouldn't it?

She already knows i am expecting payment after logo approval... Are you saying that I should have discussed price before I showed her anything?

Im curious please explain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This happens all the time. NEVER start a design job without a signed contract and a deposit. NEVER.

People almost always learn this the hard way <sigh>.

Incidentally, you might want to let her know in some way that you retain the image copyrights until you receive payment. Maybe that will help...

Edit: and in the mean time, you might want to have a look over this article:
http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14271

[Jriddim]

Morea, You are tha Best! that is an excellent article thanks so much!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have some scary news...this woman still hasn't called me! its been almost a whole week....

I am starting to wonder if her 15 y/o nephew is in the process of recreating my logo in MS paint right now!

WTF

How much longer should I give her before I stop in?

[GraphixNPrint]

I have some scary news...this woman still hasn't called me! its been almost a whole week....

I am starting to wonder if her 15 y/o nephew is in the process of recreating my logo in MS paint right now!

WTF

How much longer should I give her before I stop in?
I would drop by and visit her. Ask if she has had a chance to speak with her husband yet. At least it will bring the job back to her focus of attention... she may just be caught up in the day to day operations of her store and it slipped her mind or is on the back burner temporarily.

[Drazan]

WTF?

You never approached her through proper channels. You didn't get a contract or anything other then "hi, do you like this?"

She has no obligation to you what so ever. Except she won't be able to use that image. But that doesn't mean she can't go to another designer to get her logo or information.

Call her and ask to come over to "discuss her business" not your business or ideas.

You want to work on client relationship building. A client does not want a sales pitch, a client wants someone who will listen to their ideas, talk about their business, how the weather is.... then once the relationship is established get to the nitty gritty of briefs, contracts, and idea development.

How would you like it if someone came up to you and said "Here's your new logo. I don't know what your business stands for, or how you relate to your customers, but I think this is a good image for you. Call me if you like it and want to work for me."

I think I would be polite and take the offered item. However, I would also be put off that this "person" would tell me how to run my business. There would be a little "o'Rly?" in some clients and that may totally put them off from working with you.

Put the client back into control of their business ideas and as they control things, guide them in the right direction. A sucessful design is when the client thinks that you did exactly what they said and wanted even though it's completely opposite from the idea that they came in the door with.

That's probably the greatest marketing tip I could give anyone.
Jade

[Jriddim]

I would drop by and visit her. Ask if she has had a chance to speak with her husband yet. At least it will bring the job back to her focus of attention... she may just be caught up in the day to day operations of her store and it slipped her mind or is on the back burner temporarily.

Thats what I was thinking... I am hoping the same thing...

After I read that article Morea posted, I am really upset with myself, and I am NEVER going to design on spec again... I guess I was just worried that people wouldn't take me seriously because I am still in school. I believe my portfolio is just starting to gain some strength, with projects getting more and more intense. Once my port is really strong, I think it will be alot easier to not design on spec...

[Jriddim]

WTF?

You never approached her through proper channels. You didn't get a contract or anything other then "hi, do you like this?"

She has no obligation to you what so ever. Except she won't be able to use that image. But that doesn't mean she can't go to another designer to get her logo or information.

Call her and ask to come over to "discuss her business" not your business or ideas.

You want to work on client relationship building. A client does not want a sales pitch, a client wants someone who will listen to their ideas, talk about their business, how the weather is.... then once the relationship is established get to the nitty gritty of briefs, contracts, and idea development.

How would you like it if someone came up to you and said "Here's your new logo. I don't know what your business stands for, or how you relate to your customers, but I think this is a good image for you. Call me if you like it and want to work for me."

I think I would be polite and take the offered item. However, I would also be put off that this "person" would tell me how to run my business. There would be a little "o'Rly?" in some clients and that may totally put them off from working with you.

Put the client back into control of their business ideas and as they control things, guide them in the right direction. A sucessful design is when the client thinks that you did exactly what they said and wanted even though it's completely opposite from the idea that they came in the door with.

That's probably the greatest marketing tip I could give anyone.
Jade

For real that is really really great advice! very well said, I understand 100%

Thank you!

(I didn't walk in there with any intention of running her business, rather than sharing an idea..(which I know is completely wrong of me) but I now i wonder If i turned her off...)

Trust me, There wont be any more "sharing" of any ideas in the future.. I am about to name my future design firm SPECNO Design ;)